SilsoeSid

Md600dvr
Please read the relevant parts of the thread, from about post 1050 would be good. You appear to have missed all the fun and came in with both feet at the end of the discussion You missed Skippy, H500's confusion between shirty and ****ty, the overnight bag and the relevance of a few things including Laughter Tor.

Exactly, so what ... your point being?

Mmm, just a couple of things on that one, the helicopter can do more things than LS surveys and all the available ground forces were in the air

You seem to have backed up what was said earlier by Cabby, that the famil could have been done by video brief
You see, this is what happens when you don't read the thread and just jump on in

Windsor Loft

If you are launching with payload available, have a word with yourself!

Not sure I'd agree here!

SilsoeSid

Bearing in mind the particular part of the industry this thread is associated with, I'd love to hear your reasoning behind that one Windsor.

Especially come October, I for one will be lifting with as much fuel as possible in order to ensure full effectiveness under the NPAS mantra...
NPAS will provide a national, borderless service making use of the nearest aircraft meaning that the police service's response will, in many cases, be enhanced over current provision.
... as this is the way ahead.

Clearly you have never had one of those, 'where's my nearest fuel' moments or a "that extra 50kgs would have been useful just now" moment, or even a 'perhaps we shouldn't have had that extra 5 minutes on task' moment.
Let me assure you, without any sandbags or swinging lamps, it's a 'special' feeling.

As they say, the only time you really have too much fuel, is when you're on fire

misterbonkers

Holy ****e batman!

1800kg empty mass
400kg of role equipment (generous!)
270kg for 3 crew
90kg for the disputed pax
694kg Full Fuel

= 3254kg
MAUW = 3585kg so one would like to think in the UK on an island near sea level there's a good enough margin for a Class 1 departure at 3254kg.

So then we look at the fuel consumption chart for operation and see that a higher weights at 90kg passenger makes sweet FA difference in the grand scheme of things - a few kilograms at best! And some pilots can waste that much fuel quite easily or even save that much fuel quite easily.

Cabby - The problem here is that SS posts rubbish for the sake of stirring rubbish. It's quite clear once you wipe away the rubbish.

md 600 driver

Here's hoping you don't ever get moved to scilly
She doesn't look 90 kilos to me !!! How unkind of you LOL

Hughes500

Mr b

You really have missed the point, the police have been caught with their trousers down wasting tax payers money . mind you as the police are now complaining about having to do fitness checks perhaps they need the heli to pass the test !

SilsoeSid

Mr.B;Here's my rubbish as you put it, in a practical sense.
(Windsor, this may also be of interest to you)

Let's say I have worked out that I can carry 490kg of fuel to get up to my MAUW of 2910kg. If I lift with 400kg, all well and good, right up until the point at which just as the misper/ rear garden / large area search is coming to an end, the call comes for a pursuit on the M40/42 and the report on the vehicle originates from Manchester. This is when 'the feeling' starts.

After the past hours flying I'm now down to about 200kg total, around 140kg (40 mins) day / 110 kg (32 min) night, 'available' for tasking + rtb/refuel.

20 minutes later, just north of Stafford, I have 20 mins of fuel left day, 10 mins night (bingo). At night I can go no further north for fuel, but I can always pop into Stafford. During the day, I have reached a point of no return and can continue the pursuit as long as the speed is kept up and after handover to NPASNW, I can zap straight into Manchester for fuel in order to get back home.

Now then Mr. B, how much better would it have been if I had that extra 90 kg (25 min) of fuel on board?

I beg to differ!

md 600 driver

SS
MR BONKERS seems to have a better or higher payload helicopter than you or have you some other answer i know you will have

SilsoeSid

Thanks for your concern Cabby, however I've never hidden behind the username. As I've always said, hiding behind a username tends, to a degree, to hide credibility. 'Fishing in a clever way' indeed, they haven't used google or even asked It's quite fun to watch someone trying to out you, when you've been out since you joined the forum. Blimey, I've even been credited with a rotorheads calendar just to make it clear enough. I guess '10 minutes from Stafford' is a bit of an easy giveaway though, however I guess those 'fuel shortage sweats' do give you egBO?

Md600, I think MrB is using the 145 as an example and figures from the link I provided. Not being 145'd, I don't know how accurate they are.

Mr.B, I'm afraid I don't understand why you are hung up about the PCSO/fuel issue, how is it relevant to this discussion? Fuel wasn't here until you went off on one about it

aeromys

The luxury of being able to take 3 up for a famil !
Do D&C still run with a single TFO, or are they now 2 TFO under NPAS?

misterbonkers

Silsoe, you sir, seem to have lost the plot.

Firstly we are referring to the D&C EC145 NOT your EC135!

It looks like in the case of the EC145 an extra passenger has very little (just a few Kgs) effect on fuel consumption & endurance. So an extra tasking may not be affected due to a lack of fuel as you can take off with full fuel.

Secondly if were going to drag your EC135 into it then do you normally sit your EC135 outside with full fuel or 400kg?

If you want more fuel to start with then surely you turn the passenger down! If there was a requirement to have the passenger in the first place then to be quite honest it's tough cheese on the pursuit but I guess you could discuss and generate options with your fellow crew and perhaps a plan could be formed for another NPAS unit to get airborne and assist? Hawarden? Manchester?

Otherwise I guess sometimes the bad guys risk getting away! But then ground officers can always make enquiries afterwards!

Is there an SOP of not having an aircraft sat with full fuel in case a passenger needs to be flown? I've seen pictures of dog handlers flying before now.

H500 - it might seem bizarrely professional but the Police may well have had there reasons to be on the Scilly Islands which could include a requirement to conduct up to date landing site surveys for night landings on a NEW part of their patch? And of course whilst you're there and you have a spare seat why not utilise it?

SilsoeSid

As I don't fly a 145, I can only give an example based on something I do have experience on, hence the 135. If I flew the 145, my scenario would have had 145 figures and might have involved a trip down the A38. Regardless of type, 90kgs of fuel is 90 kgs of fuel.

It would sit outside with the appropriate amount of fuel

Even if we had a pax with us and a job came in where we were going to be tight on fuel, Welsh border request or suchlike, then I would top up with the extra fuel and ditch the pax

Did you read my post? I only ask as you seem to have missed the bit about handing over to NPASNW

Now then, I'll let you work that one out all by yourself. Would you have the ac sitting there that 90kg lighter just incase you suddenly have to take a pax, or have that 90kg fuel in the tank & in your back pocket?


Is there any particular reason why every post you have made since this topic was started, contains an insult?

SilsoeSid

I get the impression Mr.B, that you think we have to stay light not because of any potential pax uplifts, but to enable us to operate like this;

PANews

A week today NPAS is to hold a meeting with industry about rebuilding the existing EC135T2 fleet to a common standard. The meeting is NPAS + industry rather than the 'pilots' that supposedly occupy this forum but I am a little confused.

Although this 'event' has been known about for quite a few days and arguably it will make a difference to about 70% of NPAS pilots [in that it will make the fleet similar in spec] it has not managed to push aside this squabbling about whether a PCSO should fly in a police helicopter and how much fuel is aboard.

Does anybody have an opinion why? Perhaps it is less important than I thought to have a common AUW?

misterbonkers

SS, light on fuel so you can behave like a bunch of over-emotional underpaid actors in a TV soap? The wonders of television and entertainment eh?

It was a question regarding your SOP. So we can deduce that is a no then. You do not leave capacity for passengers at your unit. Thanks for clarifying that

To clarify; in the case of the EC145 a 90kg Pax appears to make no odds.

In the case of your EC135 it is clearly a concern for you.

If something isn't achievable then it isn't achievable.



No doubt you'll find something above insulting. My sincere apologies. Please try not to cry like one of those actors!

SilsoeSid

Mr.B, please don't call us a bunch over-emotional actors
Until you yourself have been called to a scene involving rivers/quarries, cars and people, or indeed any such tasking ( for real that is ), I don't think you are entitled to make such remarks. This time you've not only gone out to insult me, but everyone else out there in this whole spectrum of the business.

You once again you've clearly shown that you have missed the point of what a post is saying.
The video I posted is to highlight what you think we get up to and therefore insist that we need a light fuel load to enable us to achieve it)

No problem, but just so you get it;
'No, I do not specifically leave capacity for a passenger(s).'
Just to make it even clearer for you to understand why, for what reason should I leave that fuel tank emptier than I need to?
If I had to go and pick someone up, I'm going to burn fuel getting there.
If I need to take someone from base and we were too heavy, I can drop one of the observers.
If I need to take 2 pax, I can drop off both observers.
If I need to take 3 pax, well, perhaps the combined weight of the 3 pax might be less than that of the 2 observers
(don't tell them I said that!)

Contrary to whatever impression you may have gathered from wherever, in general, the operational carrying of passengers isn't that common an occurrence.


Wow, forever Mr flexible eh!
Good job you weren't on 'The Endurance' back in 1914.

aeromys

Cabby, do you know of a single, UK Police Air Ops base, that has an Observer who weighs more than 20 stone? So much so, that it is not unusual to find such heavy Observers?

jayteeto

As they say, the only time you really have too much fuel, is when you're on fire

Thats the one!

Back to PCSO debate....... It was a jolly, just admit it. The bit about being her 'patch' and helping the crew is rubbish. Most of my pax were flown above their patch and didnt have a clue which way was up. They are entitled to carry a pcso, they broke no rules........ except the spare Y-fronts recommendation. Flying suits are suitable wear for all occasions, discos their speciality.
PS. Glad to hear about the EC145 capabilities, full of kit, full of crew AND full of fuel. Hopefully our charity is thinking of getting one. What is the ZFW of a met ac prepared for service??????

Ye Olde Pilot

Drama queen!

Silso Sid always wants to be right and does not appreciate if flying a turbine helicopter was difficult and the tasks were so complex why is the UK pay so low.

The answer is there is an abundance of qualified pilots who can fly what is an easy days work.

Take a break Sid and checkout some real chopper flying in Australia or Canada and the USA. The guys in this video spend most of their time in the air and not drinking tea in a crew room.

How would your rules work in this game?

SilsoeSid

Ye Old;
Horses for courses.

Mmmm, let me think about that one while I try and find something about what these guys do during the evening and at night

p.s. Did you watch your own video link?
"Bundles are stacked to helicopter capacity based on elevation and fuel load factors"