UK NPAS discussion thread: Mk 3
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Interesting
Just saw this on the BBC, i thought the policy of forces was not to get into chasing motorbikes due to the increased risk to riders and public and call on a helicopter to combat,monitor and ascertain a home address for a covert unit to follow up, or are forces planning on the assumption that an aircraft wont always be within the force boundary??, if a mod can embed the video??
BBC News - West Yorkshire Police chase off-road trial biker
CM
BBC News - West Yorkshire Police chase off-road trial biker
CM
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Did you watch/listen to your own video/link Colonel?
"The pursuit is then on and it lasts for over a mile"
I think anyone can have a good guess that a pursuit lasting for a mile will be well over before any helicopter can lift, let alone get there. An example how proactive patrolling, with a little Lady Luck as far as pursuits go, can be so effective and that's not only for pursuits.
However things like proactive patrolling can only be driven from local officers. Thankfully, this will still continue under NPAS. Happy days
"The pursuit is then on and it lasts for over a mile"
I think anyone can have a good guess that a pursuit lasting for a mile will be well over before any helicopter can lift, let alone get there. An example how proactive patrolling, with a little Lady Luck as far as pursuits go, can be so effective and that's not only for pursuits.
However things like proactive patrolling can only be driven from local officers. Thankfully, this will still continue under NPAS. Happy days
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Doh
Silsoe,
apologies, your quite correct i did not watch the whole video, still i thought a mile was enough distance to get up speed and knock someone over .......my point was that if the area was known as a hotspot then the heli should be the starter for 10, just wondered whether West Yorks have invested in trial bikes as they maybe do not think that they could rely on a cab being hired for the task.
I must have had a bit of NPAS`ism
1. Great idea
2. Didn`t fully understand what it was i was sharing to everyone
3. Went ahead anyway
- Pin pulled, rolled in and ..................brace -
apologies, your quite correct i did not watch the whole video, still i thought a mile was enough distance to get up speed and knock someone over .......my point was that if the area was known as a hotspot then the heli should be the starter for 10, just wondered whether West Yorks have invested in trial bikes as they maybe do not think that they could rely on a cab being hired for the task.
I must have had a bit of NPAS`ism
1. Great idea
2. Didn`t fully understand what it was i was sharing to everyone
3. Went ahead anyway
- Pin pulled, rolled in and ..................brace -
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I don't think the trials bikes are just for these biker scallywags because someone doesn't think a helicopter will be made available. They're quite handy I'd have thought for any jobs out in the sticks such as moorland, dales and general large area coverage unsuitable for a car. Also fairly handy in town. I wouldn't be surprised if most forces have them including the 'metropolitan forces'. 
Of course the helicopter would be available in that situation, however the problem is not as easy to solve as it sounds. Although they may be in a 'hotspot', they tend to only pop up for short periods at random times. We get most of ours while we are out on other jobs, rapidly redeployed and usually able to get them on camera before we are even in the area.
I suspect the no pursuit for bikes policy you mentioned is for the bikes out on the main highways, where if the biker crashes they'll be getting a lovely big handout as it was the pursuers that made them ride so fast and so dangerously!
For these annoying off roaders as shown in the article, there are tactics used involving the helicopter that are very successful
p.s. Like the NPAS'ism
Of course the helicopter would be available in that situation, however the problem is not as easy to solve as it sounds. Although they may be in a 'hotspot', they tend to only pop up for short periods at random times. We get most of ours while we are out on other jobs, rapidly redeployed and usually able to get them on camera before we are even in the area.
I suspect the no pursuit for bikes policy you mentioned is for the bikes out on the main highways, where if the biker crashes they'll be getting a lovely big handout as it was the pursuers that made them ride so fast and so dangerously!
For these annoying off roaders as shown in the article, there are tactics used involving the helicopter that are very successful
p.s. Like the NPAS'ism
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Dear YOP,
I really don't understand where you get your ideas from.
Having gone through the 61 pages and 1,202 posts of the previous thread (before the NPAS threads were split) in an attempt to find something that I have said or could have been misinterpreted to support your viewpoint, there is nothing to back your rants. As I knew, at no point whatsoever have I said anything to give the impression that, "You always complain about your job and t&c's on here" and I would have been very surprised if I or anyone else could find anything remotely along those lines.
You'll have to go elsewhere for your scoop.
I really don't understand where you get your ideas from.
Having gone through the 61 pages and 1,202 posts of the previous thread (before the NPAS threads were split) in an attempt to find something that I have said or could have been misinterpreted to support your viewpoint, there is nothing to back your rants. As I knew, at no point whatsoever have I said anything to give the impression that, "You always complain about your job and t&c's on here" and I would have been very surprised if I or anyone else could find anything remotely along those lines.
You'll have to go elsewhere for your scoop.
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SS,
So in one week you have read the manual AND the whole of this thread, I bow to your prowess.....and stamina, that must be some fine coffee you serve in there.
So in one week you have read the manual AND the whole of this thread, I bow to your prowess.....and stamina, that must be some fine coffee you serve in there.
Last edited by Wagging Finger; 3rd Oct 2013 at 16:49.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Lol, the manual and coffee was on shift; the thread sift and cereal, better than counting sheep to drop off ready for the next 'session'.
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Time to put this thread to bed.
The reorganisation went to plan.
The loss of some helicopters has had no public impact and indeed reduced costs and ops have shown there was too much slack in the old system.
As I have suggested before no point in chasing boy racers.
The reorganisation went to plan.
The loss of some helicopters has had no public impact and indeed reduced costs and ops have shown there was too much slack in the old system.
As I have suggested before no point in chasing boy racers.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Y.O.P.
...who of course, wear the same suits, helmets etc 
As you insist in continuing with your 'pilot attire' rants in various threads around the site;
Flying suits are a uniform provided by an employer. They provide fire resistant protection, have useful pockets and pads and as simple coveralls not only keep our own clothing clean they are designed to be anti snag.
(May I also suggest you read your beloved Nepal thread and take a closer look at the pics
)
Bar slides, just like on every other civil occasion they are worn, are for identification. How can it be an ego issue if the only people that see you 98% of the time are the other 2 crew on duty
(p.s. Capt. is an appointment not a rank)
Over and above communication, helmets provide many things a headset cannot such as protection; providing not only cranial protection, but eye & face protection from both environmental effects and 'natural mishaps' such as bird strikes. A helmet may also have upon it; mounting systems for night vision aids, torches etc.
Just one example for you to understand .... why;
Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Aviation Investigation Report A11W0070
Loss of Control Collision with Water
Campbell Helicopters Ltd.
Bell 212 CFJUR
Slave Lake, Alberta, 12 nm W
20 May 2011
Same report with pics
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviati...p185-6482.html
I hate to be a party pooper but plods chopper coppers in their 'Klown Kaptain suits' are a waste of public money .
It would be better to assign the funds to the Air Ambulance operations in the UK.
It would be better to assign the funds to the Air Ambulance operations in the UK.
As you insist in continuing with your 'pilot attire' rants in various threads around the site;
Flying suits are a uniform provided by an employer. They provide fire resistant protection, have useful pockets and pads and as simple coveralls not only keep our own clothing clean they are designed to be anti snag.
(May I also suggest you read your beloved Nepal thread and take a closer look at the pics
)Bar slides, just like on every other civil occasion they are worn, are for identification. How can it be an ego issue if the only people that see you 98% of the time are the other 2 crew on duty
(p.s. Capt. is an appointment not a rank)
Over and above communication, helmets provide many things a headset cannot such as protection; providing not only cranial protection, but eye & face protection from both environmental effects and 'natural mishaps' such as bird strikes. A helmet may also have upon it; mounting systems for night vision aids, torches etc.
Just one example for you to understand .... why;
Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Aviation Investigation Report A11W0070
Loss of Control Collision with Water
Campbell Helicopters Ltd.
Bell 212 CFJUR
Slave Lake, Alberta, 12 nm W
20 May 2011
Flight Helmets
The pilot, who was not wearing a flight helmet, received severe head injuries during the impact sequence. The pilot's flight helmet was found inside its bag at the rear of the helicopter cabin.
The occurrence pilot was not required by Campbell Helicopters to wear a helmet, nor is there a regulation requiring helicopter pilots to wear head protection.
The second most frequently injured body region in survivable helicopter crashes is the head. 4 According to United States military research, the risk of fatal head injuries can be as high as 6 times greater for helicopter occupants not wearing head protection. 5 The effects of nonfatal head injuries range from momentary confusion and inability to concentrate to full loss of consciousness. 6 Incapacitation can compromise a pilot's ability to escape quickly from a helicopter and assist passengers in an emergency evacuation or survival situation.
In 1988, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) reviewed 59 emergency medical services (EMS) aviation accidents between 11 May 1978 and 03 December 1986. This study resulted in NTSB's recommendations A88009 to the FAA and A88014 to the American Society of Hospital Based Emergency Aeromedical Service asking them to require that flight crew and medical personnel wear protective helmets, and encourage them to do so, to reduce the chance of injury and death.
Transport Canada recognized the safety benefits of using head protection in its 1998 Safety of Air Taxi Operations Task Force (SATOPS) 7 report in which it committed to implementing the following recommendation:
Recommend Transport Canada continue to promote in the Aviation Safety Vortex 8 newsletter the safety benefits of helicopter pilots wearing helmets, especially in aerial work operations, and promote flight training units to encourage student pilots to wear helmets.
In addition, SATOPS directed the following recommendation to air operators:
Recommend that helicopter air operators, especially aerial work operators, encourage their pilots to wear helmets, that commercial helicopter pilots wear helmets and that flight training units encourage student helicopter pilots to wear helmets.
The TSB has documented a number of occurrences 9 where the use of head protection likely would have reduced or prevented the injuries sustained by the pilot.
The pilot, who was not wearing a flight helmet, received severe head injuries during the impact sequence. The pilot's flight helmet was found inside its bag at the rear of the helicopter cabin.
The occurrence pilot was not required by Campbell Helicopters to wear a helmet, nor is there a regulation requiring helicopter pilots to wear head protection.
The second most frequently injured body region in survivable helicopter crashes is the head. 4 According to United States military research, the risk of fatal head injuries can be as high as 6 times greater for helicopter occupants not wearing head protection. 5 The effects of nonfatal head injuries range from momentary confusion and inability to concentrate to full loss of consciousness. 6 Incapacitation can compromise a pilot's ability to escape quickly from a helicopter and assist passengers in an emergency evacuation or survival situation.
In 1988, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) reviewed 59 emergency medical services (EMS) aviation accidents between 11 May 1978 and 03 December 1986. This study resulted in NTSB's recommendations A88009 to the FAA and A88014 to the American Society of Hospital Based Emergency Aeromedical Service asking them to require that flight crew and medical personnel wear protective helmets, and encourage them to do so, to reduce the chance of injury and death.
Transport Canada recognized the safety benefits of using head protection in its 1998 Safety of Air Taxi Operations Task Force (SATOPS) 7 report in which it committed to implementing the following recommendation:
Recommend Transport Canada continue to promote in the Aviation Safety Vortex 8 newsletter the safety benefits of helicopter pilots wearing helmets, especially in aerial work operations, and promote flight training units to encourage student pilots to wear helmets.
In addition, SATOPS directed the following recommendation to air operators:
Recommend that helicopter air operators, especially aerial work operators, encourage their pilots to wear helmets, that commercial helicopter pilots wear helmets and that flight training units encourage student helicopter pilots to wear helmets.
The TSB has documented a number of occurrences 9 where the use of head protection likely would have reduced or prevented the injuries sustained by the pilot.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviati...p185-6482.html
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Public money to air ambulances!!!!
YOP, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, but then again, as a journalist you don't need to
YOP, you clearly have no idea what you're talking about, but then again, as a journalist you don't need to
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Silsoe
The hiviz safety wallahs have turned the whole uniform scenario into a mockery.
I can't tell the difference now between a real plod, a plastic plod and a traffic warden or a so called security officer. There is a bloke who turns up in my local pub every Friday night wearing his entire prison officer uniform from a local high security unit complete with his ID tags and key chains.(But be rules about that)
Cost for value the police air operation in the UK needs scaling down. Not music to your ears but reflected in my community charge which pays your wages.
Not sure what you mean but I guess if you had been to places such as that you'd have got the bigger picture.
It would be amusing to see a pilot with your attitude trying to survive the R22 muster scene in Oz for a year or two. I'd love to be a fly on the wall the
fist day when you ask for the babygrow suit
The hiviz safety wallahs have turned the whole uniform scenario into a mockery.
I can't tell the difference now between a real plod, a plastic plod and a traffic warden or a so called security officer. There is a bloke who turns up in my local pub every Friday night wearing his entire prison officer uniform from a local high security unit complete with his ID tags and key chains.(But be rules about that)
Cost for value the police air operation in the UK needs scaling down. Not music to your ears but reflected in my community charge which pays your wages.
Flying suits are a uniform provided by an employer. They provide fire resistant protection, have useful pockets and pads and as simple coveralls not only keep our own clothing clean they are designed to be anti snag.
(May I also suggest you read your beloved Nepal thread and take a closer look at the pics )
(May I also suggest you read your beloved Nepal thread and take a closer look at the pics )
It would be amusing to see a pilot with your attitude trying to survive the R22 muster scene in Oz for a year or two. I'd love to be a fly on the wall the
fist day when you ask for the babygrow suit
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Even more speculation and guesswork from someone that it not in the business
NO IT DIDN'T !
What fact(s) / Public survey are that supposition based upon ?
Where are the figures, and what specifically, do they relate to, supporting this statement that costs have been reduced ?
Is that just your opinion ? - Have you consulted anyone affected by the often disastrous consequences of these so called Boy Racers ?
Is that one particular force, ( "the force" ) or all of them together -
Please provide details of the Public satisfaction survey that confirm this, if you are going to speak on behalf of "the Public".
Again, Really ? What are the FACTS then ? - please provide them.
Which particular planet do you actually live on ?
Just another of your personal opinions ( and mild insults ) - I assume with no facts or information to back it up ?
OK that confirms what I thought -
You have absolutely no idea of what you are ranting about.
You obviously have a BIG downer on Police Air Operations, and it seems likely that nothing anyone else says or does
will change your opinion - which of course you are entitled to, but may I suggest, and request,
that until you can actually back up anything you say with facts and figures or other supporting information,
you keep your opinions to yourself now - you've made them, and should move on
unless you actually have anything beneficial to add, rather than suggesting that a Thread, in which you have NO direct connection, be closed !
Bye bye.
Nail
p.s. I think I just used up my whole allocation of Troll food
The reorganisation went to plan.
The loss of some helicopters has had no public impact
... reduced costs and ops have shown there was too much slack in the old system.
... no point in chasing boy racers
there is a public perception that the force is no more than a tax collector
Please provide details of the Public satisfaction survey that confirm this, if you are going to speak on behalf of "the Public".
The fact is that the huge expense of police air ops does not make the public on the ground any safer.
... the reality is all the criminals they catch are petty crime merchants ...
... plods chopper coppers in their 'Klown Kaptain suits' are a waste of public money ...
It would be better to assign the funds to the Air Ambulance operations in the UK.
You have absolutely no idea of what you are ranting about.
You obviously have a BIG downer on Police Air Operations, and it seems likely that nothing anyone else says or does
will change your opinion - which of course you are entitled to, but may I suggest, and request,
that until you can actually back up anything you say with facts and figures or other supporting information,
you keep your opinions to yourself now - you've made them, and should move on
unless you actually have anything beneficial to add, rather than suggesting that a Thread, in which you have NO direct connection, be closed !
Bye bye.
Nail
p.s. I think I just used up my whole allocation of Troll food
Last edited by Nail The Dream; 26th Oct 2013 at 06:47.
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Just a teeny bit correct
no point in chasing boy racers
I'm not saying they should not be chased, but once caught, something more permanent needs doing to them, otherwise it's just a "Stop, or I'll shout Stop again" kind of reaction.
I know that dealing with Magistrates who are out of touch with the real world is outside the scope of NPAS and the crews who do the job, but eventually someone needs to focus the resources on the fights that you can win.
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It's not just "boy racers" that get appallingly lenient sentences,
or even get "let off" completely because CPS think they might not reach their targets
for the number of successful prosecutions
It's all sorts of criminals - right across the board ......
.... and It's not just the NPAS organisation, or the air crews,
it is the whole Police service that DO manage to arrest the criminal,
but have little to no influence at all on what sentence might be passed by the Courts.
So let's just give up completely then, and not bother arresting anyone at all - "WHAT'S THE POINT"
Nail
or even get "let off" completely because CPS think they might not reach their targets
for the number of successful prosecutions
It's all sorts of criminals - right across the board ......
.... and It's not just the NPAS organisation, or the air crews,
it is the whole Police service that DO manage to arrest the criminal,
but have little to no influence at all on what sentence might be passed by the Courts.
So let's just give up completely then, and not bother arresting anyone at all - "WHAT'S THE POINT"
Nail
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For a lot of these bored street kids baiting plod and initiating the chase complete with evading the chopper crew is an extension of a computer game.
There is no intention from the start of stealing the car to sell on.
They often work out a chase route and escape path. As for evading thermal imaging just dump the car in a city centre and walk in to a supermarket, bus station or pub and job done.
The cost/risk analysis does not make sense.
For those who get caught and feature in those police camera action tv shows it's a badge of honour. We've all seen Smokey and the Bandit.
The other aspect of this type of policing is the distraction theory where plod is wasting time on petty crime while real villains are making money.
There is no intention from the start of stealing the car to sell on.
They often work out a chase route and escape path. As for evading thermal imaging just dump the car in a city centre and walk in to a supermarket, bus station or pub and job done.
The cost/risk analysis does not make sense.
For those who get caught and feature in those police camera action tv shows it's a badge of honour. We've all seen Smokey and the Bandit.
The other aspect of this type of policing is the distraction theory where plod is wasting time on petty crime while real villains are making money.
Last edited by Ye Olde Pilot; 28th Oct 2013 at 20:49.
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For a lot of these bored street kids baiting plod and initiating the chase complete with evading the chopper crew is an extension of a computer game.
There is no intention from the start of stealing the car to sell on.
They often work out a chase route and escape path. As for evading thermal imaging just dump the car in a city centre and walk in to a supermarket, bus station or pub and job done.
The cost/risk analysis does not make sense.
For those who get caught and feature in those police camera action tv shows it's a badge of honour. We've all seen Smokey and the Bandit.
The other aspect of this type of policing is the distraction theory where plod is wasting time on petty crime while real villains are making money.
There is no intention from the start of stealing the car to sell on.
They often work out a chase route and escape path. As for evading thermal imaging just dump the car in a city centre and walk in to a supermarket, bus station or pub and job done.
The cost/risk analysis does not make sense.
For those who get caught and feature in those police camera action tv shows it's a badge of honour. We've all seen Smokey and the Bandit.
The other aspect of this type of policing is the distraction theory where plod is wasting time on petty crime while real villains are making money.
Absolute rubbish, where does that come from?