Wagging Finger

What else is there to do on a quiet night or when grounded?? It's a national sport where I work!!

tigerfish

Silso,

What I meant about civilian observers being less flexible during down time is this.

They will have a job description and a contract and there is a requirement to work within that scope.

The Police Officer's role is more wide spread, yes he/she will have a job description, but it is bound to include the basic role of being a Police Officer contained within it.

When my a/c was off line for an extended period, say a couple of weeks, it was routine to "loan" the observer police officers back to an operational division. In my experience that never did any harm and indeed it often did a shed load of good to remind the guys what the real sharpe end was like.

In similar fashion,- in order to extend the experience base of new observers who were on the reserve list, we sometimes gave them a temporary 3 month posting to the unit in order to build experience and confidence. At the same time so as not to exceed our establishment, one of the regular observers would return to division to "re chip" on basic patrol duties. Please understand this was NOT a punishment measure, merely a way of preventing staleness from setting in. Most of the observers quite liked the experience.

I hear some of the others saying that in their experience the civilian observer is fine, and I must accept that their experience will be more up to date than mine. But I must come back to the fact that we are talking about a POLICE aircraft, engaged in very front line Policing. I believe that both the public and the Police Service, would be happier if it contained at least one Police Officer as part of its crew.

Policing is changing, and old codgers like me must accept that fact I agree. But given that in this case there is very little financial benifit in employing civilians as observers, and there is some risk in losing the effectiveness of this vital but expensive resource, are you really that enthusiastic about enforcing that change?

Or are you really saying that the Police Officer is only good enough to fight in the gutter outside the dog and duck every saturday night? Specialist roles are too good or too complicated for him/her?

Are you really saying that all the Police Officer observers, who took this art of Police Aviation onwards from the early 80's through to what it is today, were a waste of time? That they shouldn't have done it, and didn't add any value?

Are you really saying, that without their dedication and enthusiasm, the art of Police Air Support would be just as far ahead as it is today? Bah! Rubbish!

I suspect that if it had all been left to the Politicians, or the accountants, or and, I am almost afraid to say it, Senior Military advisors, it would either have not happened at all, or if it did, we would still be using a mixture of Gazelles, Lynx's and Sea kings to try and stop vehicle crime. Radio communications would not have progressed to the point that it is today, nor FLIR or most of the other Police kit. Yes, Yes, - I know that the military had it first, but I don't think that it would have been so specialised or police orientated as it is now.

Nevertheless, I do have every respect for the help and guidance that our ex military pilots gave us (And a smaller number of civilian pilots). They are in my opinion quite simply the best in the world. Anyone who can keep us safe on a black rainy night in the hover or tight orbit, has my total and undying respect. Remember we are talking about Northern hemisphere British weather!

We were the best by 2004, but admittedly expensive, and some changes were inevitable. But I am seriously worried that some one is in real danger of destoying all that we worked so hard to build up.

Something seems to be in danger of going down the plug hole with the bath water !

tigerfish

J.A.F.O.

TF

Pilots, police officers and police staff have all contributed to making police aviation in the UK what it was on 30th September this year. What it will be in the future I do not know but we are told that there won't be extended downtime so your argument for flexibility during downtime seems to be null and void.

Your view of how police staff observers have operated for many years and the amount of confidence placed in them is out of line with the experience of those actually involved.

I am not in any way decrying the police officers involved in air support over the years or suggesting that their should be an expansion of civilianisation; all I am saying is that everyone has played a part and many will continue to do so on into the future.

I think that UK police aviation has played a small part in the development of FLIR and a tiny part in the development of communication systems.

SilsoeSid

Don't you ever get fed up being constantly reminded of how unarmed you are in a battle of wits?

tigerfish

JAFO,

I cannot accept your comment about "your views are out of line with those who were actually involved! I was involved from 1984 onwards, when did you start?

I agree that there many of us involved and I have never saught to decry that. But I do not agree that UK Police aviation only played a small part in the development of the equipment carried today.

Industry reacts to demand, and I do believe that in no small way our constant demands for better and better kit aided the development of what we have today.

My comments about a/c development flow from observations from family members who are current military aircrew. They are amazed at the quality and complexity of the kit that our a/c carry. My son flies in a helicopter that is 4 years older than he is, and he is 37. He does not have access to the role equipment that we do.

I say again, had we left it to the military, what would be using today? would it be as suitable for the task?

It is all too easy for you to rubbish the dedication that those early units and crews put in. Too easy to accept the assurances that NPAS put out about minimum downtime. But again I challenge, - What do you mean by immediate cover. From where? How long will it take to be on task? How effective will it be when it arrives?

Frankly I take that with the same confidence that I receive assurances that the military, after all the cut backs, are just as capable of defending us as before.

By the way I am very impressed by the new Royal Naval Rowing boat, I saw it recently when I came into Portsmouth dockyard!

tigerfish

P.S. Whats the point? No one seems to care about the way this country is going now anyway.

tigerfish

backtothebeat

Silsoe I wasn't aware there was a battle going on..?
It's supposed to be a discussion..!

I'm assuming from your ill-informed comments that your not actually in the business, just a badly informed onlooker who's a bitter at not being allowed in for some reason. Feel free to leave unless you have something positive to contribute rather than petty back biting.

Wagging Finger

SS I think some people on here are taking this to literally, It's all good natured banter at the place I work, don't know what it's like where you are but I suspect it's more or less the same, the pilot's know their place and we TFO's know ours

Good natured banter makes the world go around, I would not want to work in a place where there is none.

And B2tB, I'm not 100% who SS is but from his comments I'm 100% sure he works on a busy unit.

timex

When was the last time a Civilian Obs got out of the aircraft and arrested someone?

When was the last time a Police officer got out of the aircraft and arrested someone? Last week for one of the crew.

Fortyodd2

B2tB, if you'd been here longer than 4 days and 9 posts, you'd know exactly who Silsoe was, where he works and what he did in a previous "life". Time spent in recce is rarely wasted.

Timex "When was the last time a Civilian Obs got out of the aircraft and arrested someone?" 3 times since April 1st - but he was the DUEO for some time prior to being a "Civvy".

When was the last time a Police officer got out of the aircraft and arrested someone? 8 times since 1st April, last one on 26th Sept and he didn't want to come quietly!!

backtothebeat

Yes well if we can keep the trolls off the thread then people can get on with the business in hand. Silsoe should also realise that I may only have been posting a short time, but that doesn't mean I'm not "in the know" as he/she puts it. The thread title is TFO/Observers. If pilots have something to contribute then feel free if it's of interest, rather than personal barracking/trolling...!

PANews

Just to back up the Tigerfish comment about who got there first.....

First use of aircraft in police work - USA 1914

First police air support unit formed - Germany 1919

First use of rotary wing in police work - UK 1932

First use of helicopter in police work - UK 1952

First permanent use of helicopter in a police unit - Czech Republic 1953

First use of a movie camera for police purposes [rather than traffic] UK - 1975 [military Scout Marconi Heli-Tele in Ulster].

First civil use of a movie camera for police purposes [rather than traffic] UK - 1982

First civil use of a FLIR camera for police purposes [rather than traffic] UK - 1982 [they were seperate in those days].

Companies like Flying Pictures pumped out dual sensor cameras eventually and they first appeared on UK police aircraft in the West Country in the mid-late 1980s mainly promoted by PAS but I cannot date it exactly without researching.

Not sure I can plot the first mapping system and all the other gizmos so easily but with a few potential exceptions UK police have been up there and first users [and by inference the developing and testing to destruction customer] in the majority of instances far more often than some of you are admitting.

Do not decry those that went before you just because they are old gits and cannot get off the golf course to defend themselves - they were actually pretty good!

J.A.F.O.

TF

I clearly didn't explain myself clearly, I hope that I can clear up any misconceptions that you have about what I meant.

I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't been involved in police aviation, I am well aware of your involvement and have spoken with you about it on a couple of occasions. By "out of line with the experience of those actually involved" (no who were in there), I meant those currently involved in units who have experienced police staff observers on staff.

I didn't intend to and nothing in my post does so.

I didn't mention cover, I meant by the use of spare aircraft at the base.

I really do think that UK police aviation has played a small part in the development of FLIR and a tiny part in the development of communication systems and if you think otherwise, that's fine, maybe you're right.

SilsoeSid

You really don't get this banter thing you go on about, do you


How gracious of you

You started it
And as for the 'cops' discussion, after carrying out a survey, my previous posts on the subject stand.

tigerfish

backtothebeat!

As you might expect;- as an ex Police ASU exponant, my sympathies fall naturally in your direction. But there are two vital lessons that you must learn, if your views are to be taken seriously.

(1) Never, - Never, call your colleagues "Cops". They proudly call themselves Police Officers, and there is over 250 years of tradition that lies behind that title. To call them "Cops" is an insult similar to calling a "Royal Marine" a marine. That is not to decry the marines in other countries, that call themselves such, but our "Royals" rightly believe they are something different, and I support them in that. UK Police officers are similarly different from "Cops" and long may that difference live on. ( But I have to say I am worried in that respect )

(2) Do not ever belittle or decry the service that countless numbers of great pilots have supplied to the Police Service since 1982. I consider myself priveledged to have worked with the likes of Mark Trumble, Steve Bidmead, John Ball, Chris Forrest, and others, and I remain in awe of how they took us forward, when we were really up against it in respect of vehicle crime and public order.

Yes! I too have indulged in light banter with them in the crew room at 0300, but never forget, - if it all goes wrong, - who carries the can!

Look guys, its all over for me now, I'm 68 shortly, and well over the hill, but that dosen't mean that I will ever stop carrying the torch for UK Police Aviation.

It was the best, and could still have been, but the current bosses of NPAS seem determined to rubbish it. But they will need to bury me first if they want to do it quietly!

tigerfish

PANews

I take a slightly different view to Tigerfish on the 'names we call ourselves' but thinking about it he is strangely right about 'Cops' ..... the Americans are 'Cops' but we never were..... not sure that would actually insult me any more than Pigs, Scuffers or a million others that assailed my ears over 30 years. Then again for both Tiger and I more than a decade has passed since we gave up the cloth so perhaps the pressure of US TV has taken its toll and 'Cops' it is?

That said there were lots of names we took on board as our own, and they were generational .... we started in the 1960s as 'Dixon' to some but I doubt that gets an airing these days; Plod perhaps being the modern one that sat easily alongside such as Trumpton for the fire brigade. Even pilots were downgraded to mere 'drivers' but I do not recall them getting hot under the collar over it.

Its not about names its about attitudes.

SilsoeSid

As one that answers the phone as 'duty driver', I am looking forward to the days of NPAS, the 'National Pleb Air Service'
PlebAir, serving a community near you... eventually

Get your NPAS uniform requests in early, pcpleb.co.uk

Anyone from the Fed like to add this design to the T-Shirts collection?

zorab64

NPAS or not, they won't be able to stop banter - it's an integral part of the job, thank goodness
It might, however, be put on hold while everyone tries to make sense of the NPAS paper mountain!

Whilst the Civvy vs Police argument has been aired more often than one would like to mention, I hope posters will draw some solace from the fact that the officer on the ground has no idea who is crewing the aircraft, especially if s/he's getting a good service. Some on here forget that potential Observers, with Military backgrounds, have had instilled in them a highly professional attitude to work & service, along with a desire, & many skills, to search & catch (or destroy) the "baddies" that some Police would do well to emulate. The "pension behind them issue" shows a sense of jealousy or cynicism that should not have any bearing on the matter, although the ability to get rid of under-performing individuals is much more important, certainly from an HR point of view.

In addition, the small periods of downtime that NPAS predicts, as a result of spare aircraft, previously not available, could be well used for training; loaning to other units for professional improvement (out of area / differences / reducing the myth of useless "Civvy Obs" from those with entrenched views!); presentations to Ground Officers / Control Rooms; the list goes on. At a busy unit (1200hrs + per year, without spare aircraft), there is seldom time for these important, but invariably unachievable, "extras" as Officers are dragged back to the streets to infill holes left by overstretched local Forces, leaving little time to apply the polish to the aviation service we provide.

Some people need to grow up, smell the roses, accept compromise & realise that we can work with & for NPAS (even though we're having to cut to a lowest-common-denominator service at the moment, just to prove that there's a better way) to bring things back up to a world-class service that many of us have been operating, or striving for, for many years. Yes, it will be different, but so is everything else in almost every other walk of life. Let's do the best job we can do with the tools we've got, and work to persuade those who've never done it that, actually, those who've done it for a while have some pretty good ideas, and are also SPECIALISTS in the job they do - and should be rewarded appropriately as officers with more "specialist" skills than almost any other. I'm sure we'll get there, but it may be hard work - which never hurt anyone, did it?

P.S. Like the badge, SS - do you do one with a 902?

Fly_For_Fun

Zorab64, I read with interest your post and agree with a great deal of what you say. Although you make no mention of motivation, feeling of self worth, will-co and can do attitudes, good will, etc. All of these have been eroded by the process that NPAS has gone through and the pressure placed on managers to deliver the perhaps undeliverable. Maybe focusing on just cash saved (and that is debateable) instead of the effect on the workers that will be asked to deliver, is a tactical error in my view.

tigerfish

Zorab, At the end of the day I guess you are probably correct and the service will shake down and make the best of a pretty bad job. Thats what it's always done, and I suspect what it will do now!

Not sure that I agree that the guys on the ground will not know the crews though, because from my experience both in the air and on the ground, the lads on the ground very quickly got to know the voices of the keenest air observers.

I can accept too, that some civilian air observers, especially the ex military ones are capable of doing a darn good job. But I have a natural resistance to trying to remove everything of a specialist nature from the Police. I go back to my point of; Where would we be now if 25 years ago some of us had not kept on pushing - hard for what we got? I repeat, the cash savings are not that great. It is a Police Aircraft, I fully accept that the pilot must, for a variety of reasons be a civilian. Probably the acceptable option might be to insist that just one of the observers provides the police presence.

FFF is also correct. Had NPAS dealt with this whole thing in a more sympathetic way right from the start, they would have taken the service with them and found the whole thing much easier. They preffered the mushroom factory style of management and it has not worked.

tigerfish

Faithless

: If he only knew.

Silsoe was a WW1 Fighter Ace many moons ago. During the 1950's he hung up his boots and goggles when he observed a rare new flying machine with it's wings rotating above the fuselage.

It was at this moment in his flying career that he sold his soul to the rotary world ......Black Adder sketch was modelled on Silsoe.

Come on Boys and Girls this is all getting too serious. Let Pilots brag about how much they get paid. Let the Police continue to be stretched to breaking point and watch the military reduce to the size of a postage stamp.

Let's face it the current Government are shafting us all big time. It will soon be time to place up the sign saying "UK Closed for the unseeable future"

Good night all.