POLICE TFO'S/AIR OBSERVERS THREAD (NPAS)
Thread Starter
POLICE TFO'S/AIR OBSERVERS THREAD (NPAS)
Not sure whether or not this thread will survive.
However I felt the HR issues around NPAS and Winsor2 for Police Officer flying crews is likely to be generating enough discussion on its own to warrant a thread of its own. The main NPAS thread is quite generalised and I thought we could keep this one specific to our HR issues.
There appears to have been a wall of silence from cops in the SE about the issues, and the rest of us have no idea if questions are being asked, let alone answered. NPAS greet you with a wall of silence, and there seems to be zero flow of information.
I heard the uptake of posts was low in the SE.
Has this been resolved.? If so how.?
I also hear lots of cops are bailing out due to Winsor2..
Is this true.?
(I heard from a collegue that ALL of the Sheffield ASU cops are bailing out and NPAS wont have any cops there at all come April..?)
Personaly I am bailing out soon, as I can neither risk redundancy nor a £5KPA pay cut to remain as a TFO, bit of a shame after 11 years, but hey ho, Im still employed. (for now)
Any takers for updates..?
However I felt the HR issues around NPAS and Winsor2 for Police Officer flying crews is likely to be generating enough discussion on its own to warrant a thread of its own. The main NPAS thread is quite generalised and I thought we could keep this one specific to our HR issues.
There appears to have been a wall of silence from cops in the SE about the issues, and the rest of us have no idea if questions are being asked, let alone answered. NPAS greet you with a wall of silence, and there seems to be zero flow of information.
I heard the uptake of posts was low in the SE.
Has this been resolved.? If so how.?
I also hear lots of cops are bailing out due to Winsor2..
Is this true.?
(I heard from a collegue that ALL of the Sheffield ASU cops are bailing out and NPAS wont have any cops there at all come April..?)
Personaly I am bailing out soon, as I can neither risk redundancy nor a £5KPA pay cut to remain as a TFO, bit of a shame after 11 years, but hey ho, Im still employed. (for now)
Any takers for updates..?
I am not so sure that NPAS has actually been failing to answer the quesations wholesale.
Personally they have been fairly open..... anything off limits being declared as such but to me my thoughts are that I have been getting so much information that it is difficult to remember it all in a structured way.
I fully accept that I may now be in a better position than most these days and suspect that those 'in service' are finding it difficult to know who/how to ask an how to get feedback from those that have asked.
Personally they have been fairly open..... anything off limits being declared as such but to me my thoughts are that I have been getting so much information that it is difficult to remember it all in a structured way.
I fully accept that I may now be in a better position than most these days and suspect that those 'in service' are finding it difficult to know who/how to ask an how to get feedback from those that have asked.
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Feelings are in my unit that Winsor is doing the job of civilianising the TFO role way before NPAS had to pull it out the bag anyway.
Personally my force are not being particularly helpful as to redeploying us and we've had to get the federation involved. None of the geographical divisions want us as we all cost too much and need retraining.!
NPAS aren't ready to talk to our region yet as to expressions of interest to remain as TFOs so I don't know what their plans are to fill vacant posts...
I assume it will go out to civilian posts when they get no police takers..!
Personally my force are not being particularly helpful as to redeploying us and we've had to get the federation involved. None of the geographical divisions want us as we all cost too much and need retraining.!
NPAS aren't ready to talk to our region yet as to expressions of interest to remain as TFOs so I don't know what their plans are to fill vacant posts...
I assume it will go out to civilian posts when they get no police takers..!
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Speaking from within the SE region, I can say that it's pretty much 'ops normal'. The expected teething troubles with new IT systems, ops manuals, email and password access. The units are fully functioning and are attending the usual jobs. Of the 3 units I know, we are short of one TFO due to a career break. Lots of grumbling on the shop floor but it's working.
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backtothebeat :
Why does everyone keep quoting "only" a £5000 pay cut ? It's actually £5487.00 !
Has it been confirmed that CRTP is staying ?
If so, do you get it only if you remain on the top pay point, in a role which attracts the Specialist Skills Threshold (SST) payment,
or would CRTP also be lost if you don't get SST and have to drop down to the lower point ?
... in which case the pay cut will be a further £1182 which makes £6669 - or if you prefer it's a pay cut of almost 18%
( Or "only" a 14.5% pay cut if you don't get SST but manage to retain CRTP !
)
PAN :
I am - and some of the "Wholesale" answers that I have seen are simply not true !
The main one that springs to mind is the one about 98% ( or is it 97% now ? ) of the population receiving Air support within 20 minutes.
NPAS are still preaching the figures based on the original flawed calculations -
where aircraft were already airborne at cruising speed over their base,
and started flyng on track towards the task when the clock started,
and not from the time when Air Support is first requested, with crew in the Office, Aircraft in the hangar,
and the Bobby on the Beat having to get their request routed via their Control Room, to the NPAS Control Room,
the NPAS controller to consider the request and agree to it, before being passed to the nearest aircraft to attend.
It is pure and simple DECEPTION to continue quoting this 20 minute response time.
In reality I personally reckon that 97% of the time, Air Support will arrive on scene after a MINIMUM of 20 minutes under NPAS.
I have no facts or figures whatsoever to back this statement up - just like NPAS
If this kind of "spin" is still being promulgated by NPAS, and no-one is asking for an explanation PUBLICLY,
what confidence can there be in answers provided to more specific questions ? ( If they get answered at all ) ?
Every time you see one of the NPAS "team" on TV, they continually quote these flawed Response times,
adding that everyone will have access to Air Support 24 hrs a day, that Aircraft will be despatched more quickly,
will be more effective, and will provide better "value" saving £15 million a year.
NONE of this appears to have been challenged publicly, and consequently it all sounds wonderful
morris1 :
The feeling by me is that this is not only just the first step towards civilianisation of Police Air Support,
but is also the first step towards a National POLICE FORCE - the one they tried and failed to set up a few years ago.
Watch this space - after National Police Air Support, it will be National Police Firearms Unit,
then National Operational Support Unit, Dogs, etc etc, until finally there WILL be a National Police Force.
I know of at least 4 TFO's in my Region that are planning to leave soon, some because of NPAS, some because of Winsor,
as they cannot afford the risk in staying and are considering progressing their careers in other areas.
Sadly, the lack of Police Officer TFO's may result in the role being Civilianised even sooner,
at a time when Police experience in the air is more crucial than ever.
Why does everyone keep quoting "only" a £5000 pay cut ? It's actually £5487.00 !
Has it been confirmed that CRTP is staying ?
If so, do you get it only if you remain on the top pay point, in a role which attracts the Specialist Skills Threshold (SST) payment,
or would CRTP also be lost if you don't get SST and have to drop down to the lower point ?
... in which case the pay cut will be a further £1182 which makes £6669 - or if you prefer it's a pay cut of almost 18%
( Or "only" a 14.5% pay cut if you don't get SST but manage to retain CRTP !
)PAN :
I am not so sure that NPAS has actually been failing to answer the questions wholesale.
The main one that springs to mind is the one about 98% ( or is it 97% now ? ) of the population receiving Air support within 20 minutes.
NPAS are still preaching the figures based on the original flawed calculations -
where aircraft were already airborne at cruising speed over their base,
and started flyng on track towards the task when the clock started,
and not from the time when Air Support is first requested, with crew in the Office, Aircraft in the hangar,
and the Bobby on the Beat having to get their request routed via their Control Room, to the NPAS Control Room,
the NPAS controller to consider the request and agree to it, before being passed to the nearest aircraft to attend.
It is pure and simple DECEPTION to continue quoting this 20 minute response time.
In reality I personally reckon that 97% of the time, Air Support will arrive on scene after a MINIMUM of 20 minutes under NPAS.
I have no facts or figures whatsoever to back this statement up - just like NPAS
If this kind of "spin" is still being promulgated by NPAS, and no-one is asking for an explanation PUBLICLY,
what confidence can there be in answers provided to more specific questions ? ( If they get answered at all ) ?
Every time you see one of the NPAS "team" on TV, they continually quote these flawed Response times,
adding that everyone will have access to Air Support 24 hrs a day, that Aircraft will be despatched more quickly,
will be more effective, and will provide better "value" saving £15 million a year.
NONE of this appears to have been challenged publicly, and consequently it all sounds wonderful
morris1 :
The feeling by me is that this is not only just the first step towards civilianisation of Police Air Support,
but is also the first step towards a National POLICE FORCE - the one they tried and failed to set up a few years ago.
Watch this space - after National Police Air Support, it will be National Police Firearms Unit,
then National Operational Support Unit, Dogs, etc etc, until finally there WILL be a National Police Force.
I know of at least 4 TFO's in my Region that are planning to leave soon, some because of NPAS, some because of Winsor,
as they cannot afford the risk in staying and are considering progressing their careers in other areas.
Sadly, the lack of Police Officer TFO's may result in the role being Civilianised even sooner,
at a time when Police experience in the air is more crucial than ever.
Last edited by Coconutty; 4th Oct 2012 at 13:36. Reason: Correcting typo's
Thread Starter
I think the £5k gets used an arbitrary figure because it's too upsetting to work it out in too much detail. Any pay cut is a cut too far..!
With the pay freeze dragging on and on anyway, each year the household budget is more difficult.
I take it the SE issues of signing the secondment agreements prior to actually reading them got resolved by the federation..?
My concerns are that if Winsor goes thru as is, and let's face it that's what Ms May wants, then I can't risk being in a post ripe for civilianisation and thus ripe for redundancy. The second concern is that if I don't jump now, then the spaces for all those non-specialist posts may well end up thin on the ground..!!
Go now and avoid the rush..!
With the pay freeze dragging on and on anyway, each year the household budget is more difficult.
I take it the SE issues of signing the secondment agreements prior to actually reading them got resolved by the federation..?
My concerns are that if Winsor goes thru as is, and let's face it that's what Ms May wants, then I can't risk being in a post ripe for civilianisation and thus ripe for redundancy. The second concern is that if I don't jump now, then the spaces for all those non-specialist posts may well end up thin on the ground..!!
Go now and avoid the rush..!
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Well if you bobbies rightly vote with your feet and walk I'd happily jump in your boots and do your job. Got my military pension behind me, have camera experience and would love to wake up in the morning to go to work to fly.......... Where do I send my CV?
Faithless, you, like Messrs Winsor, Marshall & Watson, are under the misguided view that all that is required to become a police air observer is to be able to use the camera equipment and that there is nothing remotely "specialist" about what they do or the environment in which they operate.
I say this, not as a police air observer, but as a pilot who has worked alongside many of them for the past 15 years. When you can honestly add their levels of skill, ability and knowledge to your CV along with your "camera time" you might get a look in.
I say this, not as a police air observer, but as a pilot who has worked alongside many of them for the past 15 years. When you can honestly add their levels of skill, ability and knowledge to your CV along with your "camera time" you might get a look in.
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Well if you bobbies rightly vote with your feet and walk I'd happily jump in your boots and do your job. Got my military pension behind me, have camera experience and would love to wake up in the morning to go to work to fly.......... Where do I send my CV?
I don't expect anything to change so If I were you Faithless I would dust off that CV an keep it up to date 'cos we are about to shoot ourselves in the foot.
As you might have gathered I am not sold on either set of opinions, all I can say is that when asked the questions are being answered.
The devil is as ever in the detail and bandying about how you get 20 minutes and whether its 97% or 98% is difficult to rebutt as I have not actually asked the question in those terms simply because at this stage of the game those values are guesses [potentially and hopefully good or inspired ones].
If 20 minutes is from in flight rather than from bottoms on easy chair that sort of makes sense. The 902 and the 135 do not start up at exactly the same rate [do they?] so there must a line drawn in the sand somewhere..... perhaps rotors running.
In my office I have a police poster created by Essex, Suffolk and Cambridge when they flew AS355 and Suffolks faster 135. It was produced at an enlightened time when nobody thought to question its message [as in NPAS] so it wasn't controvercial [then].
On that poster nowhere in the three police areas was outside 15 minutes from their own slowish 355 aircraft and Suffolk's faster 135 could reach anywhere on that patch [of three counties] in 20 minutes from Wattisham.
One 'NPAS lie' that is being bandied about is this 24/7 thing. As of today the UK does not have 24/7 police helicopter availability - fact. As of Monday the South East has 24/7 police helicopter availability and when its all in place 2015 [ish] England and Wales will/should have 24/7 police helicopter availability.
Of course its a bit of a farce really.... near pointless for some ..... the Met provides the [nominal] 24/7 in SE but we all know that they are not going to despatch an EC145 at 4-30am to a PC standing in Dover Castle who has lost his car keys and wants a searchlight. Clearly not important enough and too far. But a less silly example in Chelmsford, Watford or Redhill might stand a real chance of getting air support at such a time and something really important in Portsmouth might get there too.
When the Marchioness went down in the River Thames the Met were tucked up in their beds. That disaster eventually changed how they perceived 24/7 and led to them being 24/7. That is not flying, it is available....... at the drop of a hat.
There are lots of if buts and maybees but nominally 24/7 is certainly a plus point for NPAS even if the time of arrival at 0500 is most certainly not going to fit into the 20 minute bracket.
The devil is as ever in the detail and bandying about how you get 20 minutes and whether its 97% or 98% is difficult to rebutt as I have not actually asked the question in those terms simply because at this stage of the game those values are guesses [potentially and hopefully good or inspired ones].
If 20 minutes is from in flight rather than from bottoms on easy chair that sort of makes sense. The 902 and the 135 do not start up at exactly the same rate [do they?] so there must a line drawn in the sand somewhere..... perhaps rotors running.
In my office I have a police poster created by Essex, Suffolk and Cambridge when they flew AS355 and Suffolks faster 135. It was produced at an enlightened time when nobody thought to question its message [as in NPAS] so it wasn't controvercial [then].
On that poster nowhere in the three police areas was outside 15 minutes from their own slowish 355 aircraft and Suffolk's faster 135 could reach anywhere on that patch [of three counties] in 20 minutes from Wattisham.
One 'NPAS lie' that is being bandied about is this 24/7 thing. As of today the UK does not have 24/7 police helicopter availability - fact. As of Monday the South East has 24/7 police helicopter availability and when its all in place 2015 [ish] England and Wales will/should have 24/7 police helicopter availability.
Of course its a bit of a farce really.... near pointless for some ..... the Met provides the [nominal] 24/7 in SE but we all know that they are not going to despatch an EC145 at 4-30am to a PC standing in Dover Castle who has lost his car keys and wants a searchlight. Clearly not important enough and too far. But a less silly example in Chelmsford, Watford or Redhill might stand a real chance of getting air support at such a time and something really important in Portsmouth might get there too.
When the Marchioness went down in the River Thames the Met were tucked up in their beds. That disaster eventually changed how they perceived 24/7 and led to them being 24/7. That is not flying, it is available....... at the drop of a hat.
There are lots of if buts and maybees but nominally 24/7 is certainly a plus point for NPAS even if the time of arrival at 0500 is most certainly not going to fit into the 20 minute bracket.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The start of the 20 mins was covered in the previous thread.
Yes it does!
One 'NPAS lie' that is being bandied about is this 24/7 thing. As of today the UK does not have 24/7 police helicopter availability - fact.
Thread Starter
Wagging finger.
This thread isn't so much about NPAS as about Winsor.
I wouldn't be hanging up my flying kit if it was just NPAS.
It's Winsor which is the issue. Officers can't/won't/shouldn't be taking huge pay cuts to remain in this highly skilled, highly technical post.
Neither will officers remain in a post whereby they are at high risk of redundancy. If Winsor2 is ratified with all these elements in, then expect an exodus of cops back to force.
This thread isn't so much about NPAS as about Winsor.
I wouldn't be hanging up my flying kit if it was just NPAS.
It's Winsor which is the issue. Officers can't/won't/shouldn't be taking huge pay cuts to remain in this highly skilled, highly technical post.
Neither will officers remain in a post whereby they are at high risk of redundancy. If Winsor2 is ratified with all these elements in, then expect an exodus of cops back to force.
No. I said the United Kingdom does not have 24/7......
Hands up the last one to fly to Lerwick or the Isle of Man most recently..... hmnn well that will be a no then.
So I guess that 'fact' stays.
Then I said England and Wales which is what is on offer by NPAS.
Practically speaking despite what you may or may not offer to your area and the ones either side you are making that offer to no more than [and this is a real wild guess] 50% of the E&W area and perhaps more in population terms no matter how keen you are. The NPAS offer is E&W lots but as I have suggested its a loaded offer for all the obvious reasons so its never going to be 100% in real terms.
This is not a one man war for NPAS but I do try and choose my words ever so carefully - you are a picky lot!!!!!
Hands up the last one to fly to Lerwick or the Isle of Man most recently..... hmnn well that will be a no then.
So I guess that 'fact' stays.
Then I said England and Wales which is what is on offer by NPAS.
Practically speaking despite what you may or may not offer to your area and the ones either side you are making that offer to no more than [and this is a real wild guess] 50% of the E&W area and perhaps more in population terms no matter how keen you are. The NPAS offer is E&W lots but as I have suggested its a loaded offer for all the obvious reasons so its never going to be 100% in real terms.
This is not a one man war for NPAS but I do try and choose my words ever so carefully - you are a picky lot!!!!!
Thread Starter
Faithless I should keep your CV handy.
I think in the near future there will be mixed crews of civi and cops.
You'll be just what they're looking for. Mil pension behind you, thus cheap to employ as they'll be paying peanuts.. You don't need to be a cop to put the camera where you're told and zoom in and out. The cop in thr back will tell you what the important bits to capture evidentially are.
It'll be crap for the cops tho because they'll be constantly working back seat til the whole thing goes civi if/ when Winsor gets implemented.
I think in the near future there will be mixed crews of civi and cops.
You'll be just what they're looking for. Mil pension behind you, thus cheap to employ as they'll be paying peanuts.. You don't need to be a cop to put the camera where you're told and zoom in and out. The cop in thr back will tell you what the important bits to capture evidentially are.
It'll be crap for the cops tho because they'll be constantly working back seat til the whole thing goes civi if/ when Winsor gets implemented.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
No. I said the United Kingdom does not have 24/7......
Hands up the last one to fly to Lerwick or the Isle of Man most recently..... hmnn well that will be a no then.
So I guess that 'fact' stays.
Hands up the last one to fly to Lerwick or the Isle of Man most recently..... hmnn well that will be a no then.
So I guess that 'fact' stays.
As far as I am aware both Strathclyde and PSNI operate 24/7 which sort of covers up there, while the rest of us cover the remainder of the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'.
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redundancy
Of course there's always the option of following the PSNI model, of how they disposed of the RUC cops via redundancy...!
(20% of them were reemployment by PSNI)
So. Take a nice big redundancy payout when NPAS go civi. Go on holiday for a year or two and pay off what's left of the mortgage. Then go for reemployment with NPAS as a civi TFO..!
(20% of them were reemployment by PSNI)
So. Take a nice big redundancy payout when NPAS go civi. Go on holiday for a year or two and pay off what's left of the mortgage. Then go for reemployment with NPAS as a civi TFO..!
