POLICE TFO'S/AIR OBSERVERS THREAD (NPAS)
Response Times!
If morris1 is correct and NPAS record response times from the point of take off, that blows the whole thing out of the water!
The only real factor that counts, is the elapsed time since the incident that sparked the request took place.
i.e. If the incident was a bank robbery, and no one asked for the helicopter for 20 minutes, and then it took 10 minutes for the request to be actioned or passed between Control rooms. It matters little that the flying time is only 15 minutes. It is still 45 minutes since the incident happened! What do you think the chances are of success and the robbers are still hanging about to give the Police a chance? Yet NPAS stats would show only the 15 minute response time!
At the very least the clock needs to start running as soon as the request is made! How else can you test how well oiled is the response capability?
Or perhaps they don't want to know!
Checkout my post no 900 on the other NPAS thread!
tigerfish
The only real factor that counts, is the elapsed time since the incident that sparked the request took place.
i.e. If the incident was a bank robbery, and no one asked for the helicopter for 20 minutes, and then it took 10 minutes for the request to be actioned or passed between Control rooms. It matters little that the flying time is only 15 minutes. It is still 45 minutes since the incident happened! What do you think the chances are of success and the robbers are still hanging about to give the Police a chance? Yet NPAS stats would show only the 15 minute response time!
At the very least the clock needs to start running as soon as the request is made! How else can you test how well oiled is the response capability?
Or perhaps they don't want to know!
Checkout my post no 900 on the other NPAS thread!
tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 12th Mar 2013 at 12:09.
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Might be that NPAS are starting off with declaring the only measurable time that can be pinpointed as having known individuals responsible for it(the operational crew). I would hope that Bradford has in place it's own 'performance measuring' of how long it takes to receive information, make a decision, and call the nearest suitable crew. The rest is the old stuff of how long it takes the public to call in the police, the police to evaluate, send a unit, ask for air support etc...that was never timed anyway.
Sure as ever, the crew will be getting it if the bosses deem the 'response time to be too long (in their opinion).
I remember when we traded the 135 T1 for the P2+, start to lift time increased from 1:40 to 5:20, because of the PW engines and the VMS/role kit start up. Guess what? One very unhappy DUEO who was convinced the crews were slacking until we did some real time trials to convince him the aircraft he had bought just couldn't get airborne any quicker.
The T2 at the next nearest unit is a good 3 minutes quicker to get off the ground! One reason why operational crews should be involved in aircraft/kit purchase.
Sure as ever, the crew will be getting it if the bosses deem the 'response time to be too long (in their opinion).
I remember when we traded the 135 T1 for the P2+, start to lift time increased from 1:40 to 5:20, because of the PW engines and the VMS/role kit start up. Guess what? One very unhappy DUEO who was convinced the crews were slacking until we did some real time trials to convince him the aircraft he had bought just couldn't get airborne any quicker.
The T2 at the next nearest unit is a good 3 minutes quicker to get off the ground! One reason why operational crews should be involved in aircraft/kit purchase.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I remember when we traded the 135 T1 for the P2+, start to lift time increased from 1:40 to 5:20, because of the PW engines and the VMS/role kit start up.
Mmmm, a little slower maybe, but I think that's a bit toooo much poetic license, and that's even if you added in the challenge/response pre take off checks, the rear crew getting in after the 'start fire-watch' and getting the clearance from ATC.5:20!!!
Blimey...on some jobs (P2+) that would be the: brew in hand > on scene time
Guess what? One very unhappy DUEO who was convinced the crews were slacking until we did some real time trials to convince him the aircraft he had bought just couldn't get airborne any quicker.
One reason why operational crews should be involved in aircraft/kit purchase.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The T2 at the next nearest unit is a good 3 minutes quicker to get off the ground! (than the P2+)
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Sid, No regrets, no poetic licence either. Unlike others on here I've got the relevant and recent experience of flying the 3 types I mention at the bases I mention and I quote only facts. To expand, both bases were in the same consortium, same rules, same challenge and response, same pilots and crew, everything the same apart from the aircraft. T1 ....no PWs, no AP, no magic role switch, and the ability to actually hover at a job a couple of minutes from takeoff. Not saying I didn't enjoy having the AP, trouble is though kids can fly them now.
Given the choice we'd have chosen TMs rather than PWs
I do aim to contribute to the thread and if that stirs a bit of emotion in others so much the better.
Given the choice we'd have chosen TMs rather than PWs
I do aim to contribute to the thread and if that stirs a bit of emotion in others so much the better.
hear hear Art.
And to think I voluntarily got to within inches of doing what poor old Ollie is propping up now
What a crock of SH one T
And to think I voluntarily got to within inches of doing what poor old Ollie is propping up now
What a crock of SH one T
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 12th Mar 2013 at 20:35.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Mmmm, well here are my P2+ facts;
No probs hovering on task just down the road minutes after take off, the magic role switch causes no delay even with a 'fast start' and not having an autopilot isn't an option even you could choose as an 'advisor'.
Having also flown all 3 (T1, T2 & P2+) I can't really see your problem with the marginal difference in start times. If your point is about reaction times, I'd rather have a camera that cooled down quicker
More haste, less speed
No probs hovering on task just down the road minutes after take off, the magic role switch causes no delay even with a 'fast start' and not having an autopilot isn't an option even you could choose as an 'advisor'.
Having also flown all 3 (T1, T2 & P2+) I can't really see your problem with the marginal difference in start times. If your point is about reaction times, I'd rather have a camera that cooled down quicker
More haste, less speed
because of the PW engines and the VMS/role kit start up.
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Being mindful of not disclosing information that should not be disclosed ....
The good old Ultraforce II or even LEO (400?) used to be ready to use about a minute after powering up, (IIRC),
and whislt the imagery was not as good as that provided now by "later" more sophisticated and higher resolution cameras,
I don't think we EVER arrived on scene while still waiting for the camera to cool down and complete it's calibrations.
The good old Ultraforce II or even LEO (400?) used to be ready to use about a minute after powering up, (IIRC),
and whislt the imagery was not as good as that provided now by "later" more sophisticated and higher resolution cameras,
I don't think we EVER arrived on scene while still waiting for the camera to cool down and complete it's calibrations.
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Sid, I have the good grace to accept your facts are different to mine.
I don't actually have a problem with different start times, as long as management accept that they are different, and don't beat up the crew when there is evidence that progress has caused things to be slower. The same situation saw the T2+ ordered without a UHF radio (now you'll know what base i'm talking about) which led to ATC imposing a 'telephone us before flying' regime adding more delay.
It was concerning me when the proposed NPAS 20 minute circles included start up times. They've now cleared that up. Perhaps the TFOs in SE region can gain some info from the Mids on how to get the role kit up and running quicker. As for me, I've hung up my flying gloves and I'm getting my coat (weather looks poor, some sort of hat may be required). Good luck to all.
Remember the ASU motto, Acrobat, diplomat, doormat!
I don't actually have a problem with different start times, as long as management accept that they are different, and don't beat up the crew when there is evidence that progress has caused things to be slower. The same situation saw the T2+ ordered without a UHF radio (now you'll know what base i'm talking about) which led to ATC imposing a 'telephone us before flying' regime adding more delay.
It was concerning me when the proposed NPAS 20 minute circles included start up times. They've now cleared that up. Perhaps the TFOs in SE region can gain some info from the Mids on how to get the role kit up and running quicker. As for me, I've hung up my flying gloves and I'm getting my coat (weather looks poor, some sort of hat may be required). Good luck to all.
Remember the ASU motto, Acrobat, diplomat, doormat!
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The 20 minute circles on maps were always based on flying time
and in the direction of the task when the button on the stopwatch is pressed !
Sadly, that fact was never advertised to the Police Chiefs, Police Authorities and everyone else with an interest,
instead the facts were wrongly publicised as "97 ( or was it 98 ) % of the UK population will receive air support within 20 minutes".
When will you Guy's get real? The ONLY test must surely be to the guy on the ground! How long will it take from the moment the call is put in, to the moment the resource is overhead? Nothing else matters!
It really means that we are talking about elapsed time!
The 15/20 minute rule has always been about from the moment the incident happens!
When a criminal commits a crime, the only thing on his mind is to get away! He does not hang about just to see how efficient the police are. He just wants to go!
So that really is the only acid test. How long after the incident has happened can we be there?
So if it takes even as little as 5 minutes for the call to reach the ASU, then our effective time overhead the scene has already dropped by that amount. So now it takes us 5 minutes to get airborne? ( Too slow) That's already 10 minutes out of our effective time & depending on whether you work to the 15 or 20 minute rule you now have an effective ETA of only 5 or 10 minutes before the whole thing is a waste of time!
That is why I will argue until my dying day that NPAS was doomed from the moment that they reduced the fleet by one third!
Only one thing counts in effective Police Air support, and that is the time that it takes to get overhead the scene from the moment that the incident started! NOTHING else matters! If you are too late to be effective, then the entire cost of deployment has been squandered!
This all started as an exercise to save money! Didn't anyone realise that to save money you have to increase the effectiveness of what you are about! i.e. To catch more of the bad buggers! Not less!
tigerfish
It really means that we are talking about elapsed time!
The 15/20 minute rule has always been about from the moment the incident happens!
When a criminal commits a crime, the only thing on his mind is to get away! He does not hang about just to see how efficient the police are. He just wants to go!
So that really is the only acid test. How long after the incident has happened can we be there?
So if it takes even as little as 5 minutes for the call to reach the ASU, then our effective time overhead the scene has already dropped by that amount. So now it takes us 5 minutes to get airborne? ( Too slow) That's already 10 minutes out of our effective time & depending on whether you work to the 15 or 20 minute rule you now have an effective ETA of only 5 or 10 minutes before the whole thing is a waste of time!
That is why I will argue until my dying day that NPAS was doomed from the moment that they reduced the fleet by one third!
Only one thing counts in effective Police Air support, and that is the time that it takes to get overhead the scene from the moment that the incident started! NOTHING else matters! If you are too late to be effective, then the entire cost of deployment has been squandered!
This all started as an exercise to save money! Didn't anyone realise that to save money you have to increase the effectiveness of what you are about! i.e. To catch more of the bad buggers! Not less!
tigerfish
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Another thing we are forgetting is that despite being called to a particular job, there are going to be times when there simply aren't enough people on the ground to deal with the offenders once we have located them. Our reaction times are irrelevant if there's no one there to feel a collar.
I bet one of the questions not asked at NAPS Comms HQ when accepting tasks is;
"What are your intentions once the offenders are located?"
Perhaps, due to the overall manning (or is it personing) level reductions throughout the forces caused by A19, no recruiting policies and general staffing cutbacks, we are reaching a stage when we may be too effective for our own good
By the way, from standing outside the P2+ after a pre flight walk-round, doors closed and doing a full FLM normal start with all the pre & post start checks, hyds, autopilot, 45 secs wait for VMS etc, it took 2:50 to be ready for skids off. If the occasion arises, I'll time an FLM 'quick start'!
So I guess there was either a lot of wool pulling over eyes going on by Art of Flight for whatever agenda, or simply a matter of new aircraft familiarity, that produced that 5:20 startup for his DUEO
I for one still remember the days of the Wallop Lynx 45 minute starts.
I bet one of the questions not asked at NAPS Comms HQ when accepting tasks is;
"What are your intentions once the offenders are located?"
Perhaps, due to the overall manning (or is it personing) level reductions throughout the forces caused by A19, no recruiting policies and general staffing cutbacks, we are reaching a stage when we may be too effective for our own good
By the way, from standing outside the P2+ after a pre flight walk-round, doors closed and doing a full FLM normal start with all the pre & post start checks, hyds, autopilot, 45 secs wait for VMS etc, it took 2:50 to be ready for skids off. If the occasion arises, I'll time an FLM 'quick start'!
So I guess there was either a lot of wool pulling over eyes going on by Art of Flight for whatever agenda, or simply a matter of new aircraft familiarity, that produced that 5:20 startup for his DUEO
I for one still remember the days of the Wallop Lynx 45 minute starts.
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and its goodnight from me.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I bid you farewell.
The current atmosphere surrounding Police Officers and social media has brought me to the conclusion that it is time to say goodbye to PPrune after 8 years.
Im not happy that I cant be "found" should the service I work for decide to come get me. Some quite high profile Officers (and one who I know personally) are currently on the verge of being investigated. So on that note I'm deleting my account as of tonight.
I'll check in every now and then as a visitor, however I wont be posting anything further.
I read today Jeremy Hunt talking about NHS whistleblowers, and saying "There has been a culture where people felt if you speak up about problems in the NHS you didn't love the NHS,"
It seems that if the Police Service are providing a poor service, we must keep it to ourselves..!
I do love my job. I love being a Police Officer and the flying part is just an added bonus that lets me do the Police work better.
I'll leave on this note.. that NPAS was doomed from the start, because it was born to cut costs, not provide a better service. So far its not even doing a very good job of cutting costs..!
Any successes it has along the way, will only ever be due to the hard work of those of us fighting through the weather, in the dark, to get to where we are needed, then using our skills and experience honed over the years, to get the results.
I am in NPAS, and will remain for now until/if winsor takes money from me. My one hope is that im still around to see something better rise from the ashes of NPAS after it has all been found out to be the huge white elephant it has already proved to be.
My opinions on NPAS from now.... are not to be publicised, for fear of retribution from the powers that be.
Goodnight, safe flying to you all.
The current atmosphere surrounding Police Officers and social media has brought me to the conclusion that it is time to say goodbye to PPrune after 8 years.
Im not happy that I cant be "found" should the service I work for decide to come get me. Some quite high profile Officers (and one who I know personally) are currently on the verge of being investigated. So on that note I'm deleting my account as of tonight.
I'll check in every now and then as a visitor, however I wont be posting anything further.
I read today Jeremy Hunt talking about NHS whistleblowers, and saying "There has been a culture where people felt if you speak up about problems in the NHS you didn't love the NHS,"
It seems that if the Police Service are providing a poor service, we must keep it to ourselves..!
I do love my job. I love being a Police Officer and the flying part is just an added bonus that lets me do the Police work better.
I'll leave on this note.. that NPAS was doomed from the start, because it was born to cut costs, not provide a better service. So far its not even doing a very good job of cutting costs..!
Any successes it has along the way, will only ever be due to the hard work of those of us fighting through the weather, in the dark, to get to where we are needed, then using our skills and experience honed over the years, to get the results.
I am in NPAS, and will remain for now until/if winsor takes money from me. My one hope is that im still around to see something better rise from the ashes of NPAS after it has all been found out to be the huge white elephant it has already proved to be.
My opinions on NPAS from now.... are not to be publicised, for fear of retribution from the powers that be.
Goodnight, safe flying to you all.
And goodnight to you, - friend! Its very sad that in this so called free country of ours, that good men should fear retribution for disagreeing!
But I should know better than most that he is correct! For I lost my job for fighting the NPAS way of introducing the National element.
Morris1 NEVER give up the fight. By all means keep a low profile but remember, History will show who was right, and above all who was responsible for NPAS.
I too am closing out.
tigerfish
But I should know better than most that he is correct! For I lost my job for fighting the NPAS way of introducing the National element.
Morris1 NEVER give up the fight. By all means keep a low profile but remember, History will show who was right, and above all who was responsible for NPAS.
I too am closing out.
tigerfish
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This is all disgustingly sad. No one better than those of you serving are qualified in speaking out to what is wrong. A ships company does not mutineer if all is well!
I am not part of NPAS , Police etc but those of you that are and feel that you can no longer post with the fear of retribution then you are welcome to post via me.... If you need to get your point across.
after all this is a rumour network!
I have watched from the side lines on this forum, as well as some of my previous involvements at various ASU locations to what is sadly happening.
I'm no journo, NPAS spy, Police officer or Government MP type vermin but one that believes in the Police ASU and what it stands for as well as many friends amongst you.
Keep up the good work fella's and don't let this penny pinching Government ruin your day.
please PM me
Sorry to see you guys depart.
