POLICE TFO'S/AIR OBSERVERS THREAD (NPAS)
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Hmmm...rumour has it that within days of the North West joining NPAS, one of the units had to suspend operations due to lack of TFOs due to sickness. On joining, two TFOs were transferred out and reliefs were no longer available.
Effective and efficient? My aarse!
Effective and efficient? My aarse!
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
If you care to read the adverts above;
North West Region (Commences NPAS Operations 29th January 2013)
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Location: Blyth, Northumberland
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Sickness cover
Re crew sickness problems, will cover be provided by other forces as has happened with last years riots?
Could there be a new training course to train up relief observers for covering sickness and holidays? Or will the UK follow the US who use one officer or a civilian to accompany the pilot each day.
If the Home Office standardise the aircraft it wouldnt be too difficult to jump from one cab to the other.
Could there be a new training course to train up relief observers for covering sickness and holidays? Or will the UK follow the US who use one officer or a civilian to accompany the pilot each day.
If the Home Office standardise the aircraft it wouldnt be too difficult to jump from one cab to the other.
The Northwest joined operationally; ie, being tasked through the NPAS control room, using NPAS callsigns, operating the NPAS shift system and manning levels from Jan 4th. We come under NPAS from a legal point; ie, Ops Manual,PAOM etc from the 29th.
And yes, there was a manning problem in the first week.
Don't believe all you read in adverts.
And yes, there was a manning problem in the first week.
Don't believe all you read in adverts.
Last edited by MightyGem; 13th Jan 2013 at 15:23.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Sorry WG, I must have misunderstood that question mark as being at the end of a question
advert;
Pretty unfair if ones force doesn't allow secondment.
The posts advertised above include some bases located in force areas where that force will not allow secondments!
We could end up with units with no 'local' TFO's.
advert;
As this is a secondment you will require permission from your current Force in order to be eligible to apply.
The posts advertised above include some bases located in force areas where that force will not allow secondments!
We could end up with units with no 'local' TFO's.
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That's a standard secondment agreement for Police Officers, your force must allow you to be seconded, some fail because of sickness or discipline.
Sadly as hard as I have looked I am unable to find a rhetorical or a ironic question mark so I used the standard one.
Sadly as hard as I have looked I am unable to find a rhetorical or a ironic question mark so I used the standard one.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
That's a standard secondment agreement for Police Officers, your force must allow you to be seconded, some fail because of sickness or discipline.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I wonder if the term flight crew, as used in both adverts, has been approved by the CAA and what the implications of that will be in regard to duty times etc 
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In answer to a few posts back, asking about the winsor 2 proposals to cut our pay. The short answer is no. It hasnt been resolved, and so far the news coming out of npas high command is, well.... actually there is no news.
All we've had is "we're working on it"...
As for secondments.. My force are now supporting applications. However we cant quite see where the vacancies are going to come from at our unit, until/if we all walk due to winsor.
Rumours from NW region abound, and have been mentioned on the other thread. Mainly that so far its a crock.. Not enough staff to make it work and the whole centralised dispatch thing also proving to be a barrier to common sense... A quote from a merseyside bobby "we dont bother asking for a helicopter anymore, takes too long to get here".
Anyway... Im sure it will all come good in the end.
All we've had is "we're working on it"...
As for secondments.. My force are now supporting applications. However we cant quite see where the vacancies are going to come from at our unit, until/if we all walk due to winsor.
Rumours from NW region abound, and have been mentioned on the other thread. Mainly that so far its a crock.. Not enough staff to make it work and the whole centralised dispatch thing also proving to be a barrier to common sense... A quote from a merseyside bobby "we dont bother asking for a helicopter anymore, takes too long to get here".
Anyway... Im sure it will all come good in the end.
"we dont bother asking for a helicopter anymore, takes too long to get here".
He wasn't bothered about the weather, but the fact that it took 15 minutes to get the reply. In the old days, he'd have had it in 30 seconds.
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Standby for Rant Mode
MightyGem,
Are you able to say precisely where that delay came from ?
Is it correct that "in the old days", they would have called Air support directly from the Traffic car, but no longer have the ability do so ?
Was the delay :
who NEED Air Support IMMEDIATELY, can NOT contact the locally based aircraft directly ?
( Remember that old phrase "a National Service delivering Air Support locally"
)
Surely when Air Support is needed IMMEDIATELY, as in the case quoted,
the air crews have built up enough of a reputation and expertise over the last 25 years or so,
to be trusted to make the decision as to whether to deploy under NPAS terms or not, and on receipt of a Direct Request,
will still have time to consult with NPAS Control and obtain authority to attend, while preparing to lift,
but before lifting - and with NO additional delay whatsoever.
This would be an excellent, and dare I say it MORE EFFICIENT use of the National Control Room,
who may be aware of a closer aircraft, e.g. already airborne and heading back to Base, or able to divert from a non urgent task etc,
that could arrive on scene SOONER than the locally based aircraft attending from base.
NPAS control would be aware of the incident and request SOONER than if the request was routed via the busy Local Control Room,
and the local aircraft or a more suitable response, would be despatched more quickly.
In this scenario, if the aircraft HAD been available, it seems quite likely that there would have been
an unacceptable delay in the aircraft arriving on scene.
( My personal interpretation of "unacceptable" being any amount of time longer than if the crew had been contacted directly ).
It is generally accepted that pursuits are dangerous, and that the danger is reduced the moment Air Support arrives,
by allowing following Police vehicles to drop back, reducing "pressure" on the fleeing driver,
with the Air Crew being able to provide an overview of the developing dynamic situation ( oncoming vehicles, red Traffic Signals etc etc ),
to the Police resources involved, in addition to tactical planning of how to resolve the incident.
Will it take a(nother) fatal "Polacc" before someone hits the RESET button here ?
If such a tragedy should ever happen - Who might be held accountable in any subsequent Public Enquiry ?
They had a pursuit and called for the helicopter. 15 minutes later, they were told it couldn't lift due to the weather.
Is it correct that "in the old days", they would have called Air support directly from the Traffic car, but no longer have the ability do so ?
Was the delay :
- at the Traffic Officers Local Control Room, who received the initial request from the Traffic Officer,
then had to transmit it ( by one of a variety of methods ) to the NPAS Control Room,
e.g. because they were already extremely busy dealing with the pursuit ( and probably other incidents too ) -
and didn't have the capacity to request Air Support from NPAS immediately, or, - at the NPAS Control Room end where the Despatcher receiving the request from the local Control Room
has to assess the task request, decide that it suitable for Air Support, work out where in the Country it is,
work out where the nearest aircraft is, then contact them - believing them to be deployable, or - due to the local aircraft not having updated NPAS control room
that they were not available due to the weather, or - where only certain areas covered by the aircraft are not accessible due to the weather,
the NPAS Despatcher did not have access to that ongoing situation, or - from the NPAS Despatcher after determining that Air support was not available,
in relaying that information back to the local Control Room, or - from the local Control Room, on receiving the information back from NPAS, not having the capacity
to process that information immediately ( due to workload as above - they are extremely busy
dealing with the ongoing pursuit ) and relay it to the Traffic Officer ?
who NEED Air Support IMMEDIATELY, can NOT contact the locally based aircraft directly ?
( Remember that old phrase "a National Service delivering Air Support locally"
)Surely when Air Support is needed IMMEDIATELY, as in the case quoted,
the air crews have built up enough of a reputation and expertise over the last 25 years or so,
to be trusted to make the decision as to whether to deploy under NPAS terms or not, and on receipt of a Direct Request,
will still have time to consult with NPAS Control and obtain authority to attend, while preparing to lift,
but before lifting - and with NO additional delay whatsoever.
This would be an excellent, and dare I say it MORE EFFICIENT use of the National Control Room,
who may be aware of a closer aircraft, e.g. already airborne and heading back to Base, or able to divert from a non urgent task etc,
that could arrive on scene SOONER than the locally based aircraft attending from base.
NPAS control would be aware of the incident and request SOONER than if the request was routed via the busy Local Control Room,
and the local aircraft or a more suitable response, would be despatched more quickly.
In this scenario, if the aircraft HAD been available, it seems quite likely that there would have been
an unacceptable delay in the aircraft arriving on scene.
( My personal interpretation of "unacceptable" being any amount of time longer than if the crew had been contacted directly ).
It is generally accepted that pursuits are dangerous, and that the danger is reduced the moment Air Support arrives,
by allowing following Police vehicles to drop back, reducing "pressure" on the fleeing driver,
with the Air Crew being able to provide an overview of the developing dynamic situation ( oncoming vehicles, red Traffic Signals etc etc ),
to the Police resources involved, in addition to tactical planning of how to resolve the incident.
Will it take a(nother) fatal "Polacc" before someone hits the RESET button here ?
If such a tragedy should ever happen - Who might be held accountable in any subsequent Public Enquiry ?
Are you able to say precisely where that delay came from ?
Is it correct that "in the old days", they would have called Air support directly from the Traffic car,
but no longer have the ability do so ?
We can self deploy, without clearing it with NPAS Control, if we hear something on the radio but as we have 4 radios and about 30 talk groups in our area, it's just a matter of chance if we hear anything.
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The clock only starts at take-off...
So it's actually "travel time".
NPAS say that incidents can be bumped up to first level at any time if necessary.
First level is 20 mins.
Second level 60 mins.
So it's actually "travel time".
NPAS say that incidents can be bumped up to first level at any time if necessary.
First level is 20 mins.
Second level 60 mins.
Last edited by morris1; 11th Mar 2013 at 23:36.
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In my 12 yrs as an observer from 1994 till 2006, I only saw Air Support Operations evolve for the better and generally high morale from pilots and cops. Now it's all gone down the pan (and my ex colleagues use different terms!!). How sad, and I'm glad I'm out. Good luck everyone trying to make it work.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Units only being contactable by telephone from Yorkshire, will be the most spectacular backward leap since Greg Louganis in the 1988 Olympics!