UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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Last I heard, the government had washed their hands of it.
Having read the "tweets" from police authority it sounds like a lively meeting.!
Quote "very tense meeting".
Would seem the Pol Auth saw through the financial holes in the NPAS plan.
I love the bit where the annual invoice to SYP was to be £1,012,000 or so "saving £600k".
But then there's the £300k extra, added on for future procurement.!
Ah. So it's not £600k saving !! lol.
Was that in the small print then ???
Wonder what else is in the pipeline. Admin charges-£750,000. ??
Having read the "tweets" from police authority it sounds like a lively meeting.!
Quote "very tense meeting".
Would seem the Pol Auth saw through the financial holes in the NPAS plan.
I love the bit where the annual invoice to SYP was to be £1,012,000 or so "saving £600k".
But then there's the £300k extra, added on for future procurement.!
Ah. So it's not £600k saving !! lol.
Was that in the small print then ???
Wonder what else is in the pipeline. Admin charges-£750,000. ??
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Well done and good luck SY, it will be interesting to see what the Home Secretary will say to this.
Time to reinstate the old motto "JUSTICE WITH COURAGE"?
BBC News - South Yorkshire Police to keep force helicopter
Time to reinstate the old motto "JUSTICE WITH COURAGE"?
South Yorkshire Police to keep force helicopter
South Yorkshire Police is to keep its own helicopter instead of signing up to a new national scheme.
South Yorkshire Police Authority announced it would opt out of the planned National Police Air Service which is due to launch in April 2012.
Opponents had warned the national scheme could mean a trebling of response times.
The decision makes South Yorkshire the first police force in England to opt out.
Charles Perryman, chairman of South Yorkshire Police Authority, said the decision was only made after a "long debate".
He said: "The National Police Air Service representatives were unable to assure us that we could get the level of cover we require for our communities.
"The balance of risk was that we were better off with our own helicopter based in South Yorkshire, so it could reach all parts of the county in a faster time than we would get from using neighbouring bases."
Neil Bowles, from the South Yorkshire Police Federation, said figures produced by the National Police Air Service "weren't convincing".
"They didn't take into account the capital costs of replacing the helicopter and I don't know whether they included the cost of our staff," he said.
South Yorkshire Police had earlier said the removal of the force's helicopter service would save £668,000 per year.
The police authority said it would now have to consider "implications to the budget" as a result of its decision to keep the force's own helicopter.
South Yorkshire Police is to keep its own helicopter instead of signing up to a new national scheme.
South Yorkshire Police Authority announced it would opt out of the planned National Police Air Service which is due to launch in April 2012.
Opponents had warned the national scheme could mean a trebling of response times.
The decision makes South Yorkshire the first police force in England to opt out.
Charles Perryman, chairman of South Yorkshire Police Authority, said the decision was only made after a "long debate".
He said: "The National Police Air Service representatives were unable to assure us that we could get the level of cover we require for our communities.
"The balance of risk was that we were better off with our own helicopter based in South Yorkshire, so it could reach all parts of the county in a faster time than we would get from using neighbouring bases."
Neil Bowles, from the South Yorkshire Police Federation, said figures produced by the National Police Air Service "weren't convincing".
"They didn't take into account the capital costs of replacing the helicopter and I don't know whether they included the cost of our staff," he said.
South Yorkshire Police had earlier said the removal of the force's helicopter service would save £668,000 per year.
The police authority said it would now have to consider "implications to the budget" as a result of its decision to keep the force's own helicopter.
BBC News - South Yorkshire Police to keep force helicopter
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Very glad to hear this outcome (the only sensible one); it was discussed at some length on local radio yesterday. Everyone agreed it would be a negative thing to remove the local ASU cover.
Not that anyone needed convincing except those trying to make a career out of the new proposal.
Not that anyone needed convincing except those trying to make a career out of the new proposal.
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Raining on the Parade
I don't want to dampen down the chorus of triumph.
I would hesitate to suggest that most would agree that the aspirations of NPAS - to join up etc - was a good thing, needed to face the difficult times ahead and long overdue.
BUT not for the helicopter losses - which is a separate issue driven by the Bankers raiding taxpayers money.
So - time for reality check - SYP will simply have to make the savings (cuts) elsewhere in force and, now, I wonder how many other ASUs will now be threatened with closure if NPAS folds.
The "I'm all right Jack" that is faintly heard from Sheffield can be seen in a different twilight. But of course, that is for the real world.
I would hesitate to suggest that most would agree that the aspirations of NPAS - to join up etc - was a good thing, needed to face the difficult times ahead and long overdue.
BUT not for the helicopter losses - which is a separate issue driven by the Bankers raiding taxpayers money.
So - time for reality check - SYP will simply have to make the savings (cuts) elsewhere in force and, now, I wonder how many other ASUs will now be threatened with closure if NPAS folds.
The "I'm all right Jack" that is faintly heard from Sheffield can be seen in a different twilight. But of course, that is for the real world.
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The "I'm all right Jack" that is faintly heard from Sheffield can be seen in a different twilight. But of course, that is for the real world.
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Am I missing something??? SYP would save £668k approx? However would then have to pay £300k approx for future aircraft procurement and continue to pay the wages of their staff £500k approx... Would that with their subscription of £1.1m equal £1.9m approx???? It seems on the face of it SYP, by keeping their aircraft are actually saving their authority over £200k approx.... As next years budget as quoted by their Cheif Pilot is £1.67m approx. Looks like this is the way forward to making those national savings. Let's set up a NNPAS... (Non National Police Air Service)...
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
The most interesting thing I find when reading the news about the recent meeting is;
Hard landing for changes to police helicopter strategy - Main Section - Yorkshire Post
Will other meetings such as this now be taking place around the country?
Further into the article I notice;
How long until April? 
Representatives from NPAS attended the meeting, but authority chairman Charles Perryman said members had not been reassured by their arguments and decided to opt out of the national arrangement.
Will other meetings such as this now be taking place around the country?
Further into the article I notice;
It is understood that to date only 10 of the 43 forces in England and Wales have formally accepted the scheme.
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Foolishness
FF
Maths is obviously not your strong point, or perhaps you just need to think a little more. Manpower 'savings' would be made through putting officers back to force and not recruiting more - its notthat difficult to grasp.
And who is going to pay for the next aircraft. You cannot compare the £1.67m 'running' cost of the SY ASU and not include the cost of its eventual replacement, and then count both for the NPAS costs. You are either stoopid or misleading by not comparing like with like. And of course it will cost SYP much more without a central grant.
Blackhead06
I would guess that the pressure to achieve savings rests far higher than the NPAS team. Oh, and how did we get ourselves in such a big mess anyway - so many types of helicopter, not flying over the border.
Maths is obviously not your strong point, or perhaps you just need to think a little more. Manpower 'savings' would be made through putting officers back to force and not recruiting more - its notthat difficult to grasp.
And who is going to pay for the next aircraft. You cannot compare the £1.67m 'running' cost of the SY ASU and not include the cost of its eventual replacement, and then count both for the NPAS costs. You are either stoopid or misleading by not comparing like with like. And of course it will cost SYP much more without a central grant.
Blackhead06
I would guess that the pressure to achieve savings rests far higher than the NPAS team. Oh, and how did we get ourselves in such a big mess anyway - so many types of helicopter, not flying over the border.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
FF
Maths is obviously not your strong point, or perhaps you just need to think a little more. Manpower 'savings' would be made through putting officers back to force and not recruiting more - its notthat difficult to grasp.
Maths is obviously not your strong point, or perhaps you just need to think a little more. Manpower 'savings' would be made through putting officers back to force and not recruiting more - its notthat difficult to grasp.
Published on Thursday 21 October 2010 08:11
NO new police officers are to be recruited by South Yorkshire Police for the foreseeable future in a bid to save £10 million, the Cheif Constable has revealed.
Med Hughes said the current recruitment freeze for officers and civilians will remain in place long-term following the Government's announcement that police force budgets are to reduce by four per cent year on year.
NO new police officers are to be recruited by South Yorkshire Police for the foreseeable future in a bid to save £10 million, the Cheif Constable has revealed.
Med Hughes said the current recruitment freeze for officers and civilians will remain in place long-term following the Government's announcement that police force budgets are to reduce by four per cent year on year.
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Life on Planet PPRrunia
Blackhead06 (now forming into Zit01)
I realise now my error, sorry about that. But here on planet Earth we have a few minor difficulties regarding finances. It is well and good talking about operational effectiveness, and you should, but it can't be disconnected from the scarcity of money. It's ok for the those in the grey retired brigade to shout from the sidelines its not like it was my day - because its not. If you dont know of any instances when the border has come into play then you should get out more. You say you support the idea of a national air wing and yet bemoan the npas team for having to give it a go in what is now very difficult times. And, why didn't you give it a go in your day? And that would have been without the need to save 20% over the next 2 years in air support. So here's a challenge for you - come up with some useful ideas to save money - not like the pointless part of this thread about wine costs etc. Or are you content to sit in your own happy little world and fire the odd misguided rocket off now and again.
Remember 20%, next 2 years, from air support - transmission ends. I hope this message doesn't get lost down your blackhole.
I realise now my error, sorry about that. But here on planet Earth we have a few minor difficulties regarding finances. It is well and good talking about operational effectiveness, and you should, but it can't be disconnected from the scarcity of money. It's ok for the those in the grey retired brigade to shout from the sidelines its not like it was my day - because its not. If you dont know of any instances when the border has come into play then you should get out more. You say you support the idea of a national air wing and yet bemoan the npas team for having to give it a go in what is now very difficult times. And, why didn't you give it a go in your day? And that would have been without the need to save 20% over the next 2 years in air support. So here's a challenge for you - come up with some useful ideas to save money - not like the pointless part of this thread about wine costs etc. Or are you content to sit in your own happy little world and fire the odd misguided rocket off now and again.
Remember 20%, next 2 years, from air support - transmission ends. I hope this message doesn't get lost down your blackhole.
Although some aspects of the SYP thinking can be seen to have flaws - including the one that assumes a cost of a typical police role equipped light twin helicopter as being £5M in 2017 [£1.5M trade in + £3.5M for a new role equipped machine] - there are signs that a healthy rethink is underway. Add the fixed wing for Dyfed into that little pot.
Somehow I doubt this is more than a bargaining point .... the expectation that NPAS would retain the SYP base at Sheffield as a FOB is wierd.... what is that going to cost?
The NPAS house of cards is not going to tumble over this, after all the CC always said he was against it but he is off shortly and influences may well soften after he has left the big house.
The report associated with this decision clearly shows that some are not happy losing their unimportant associated air support activities.... football.... photography ... PR... It may be that others have not actually considered these losses. Air support is not only about 999 calls and it is that element that NPAS currently concentrates on.
Somehow I doubt this is more than a bargaining point .... the expectation that NPAS would retain the SYP base at Sheffield as a FOB is wierd.... what is that going to cost?
The NPAS house of cards is not going to tumble over this, after all the CC always said he was against it but he is off shortly and influences may well soften after he has left the big house.
The report associated with this decision clearly shows that some are not happy losing their unimportant associated air support activities.... football.... photography ... PR... It may be that others have not actually considered these losses. Air support is not only about 999 calls and it is that element that NPAS currently concentrates on.
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including the one that assumes a cost of a typical police role equipped light twin helicopter as being £5M in 2017 [£1.5M trade in + £3.5M for a new role equipped machine]
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Police Authority member changes?
Looking at the broader picture on government changes in police forces, which also includes police authority members.
Will any of the current police authority members be around to oppose any NPAS changes after 2012?
I only ask this after reading these published articles. The government are commited to changing everything on decision making at a local level so what will happen when 2013 arrives?
APA commits to successful transition to Elected Police Commissioners
Avon and Somerset Police Authority
Will any of the current police authority members be around to oppose any NPAS changes after 2012?
I only ask this after reading these published articles. The government are commited to changing everything on decision making at a local level so what will happen when 2013 arrives?
APA commits to successful transition to Elected Police Commissioners
Avon and Somerset Police Authority
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Peace breaks out - the boil is lanced
Far from being conflictory, I think we might actually be on the same side in the we both think some form of joining up of police air support is needed. I think where we differ is that I fear that NPAS might not happen because of a number of issues, and the consequences will be far more damaging. Perhaps the team has gone back and sought some deferment, I dont know but I can imagine in the current financial climate that being frowned upon. Perhaps there will be a second round, but time clicks on and budgets have already been cut for the years ahead.
For info, I have nothing to do with police - rather a different organisation that has things that go bang. Many years ago we embarked on bringing the different colours of the organisation together - plagued with protectionsism and self-interest. In fact the resistance to change was legionary and we failed to achieve what we might have done, the budget increasingly went pear-shaped and the price (subsequently) had to be paid. So, yes I have some sympathy where perhaps you do not but then you perhaps have not encountered how difficult all this is, which of course is not your fault. So sorry, it is an issue close to my heart but for historical reasons.
I was always facsinated by the police having so many different empires, with different equipment and all doing pretty much the same thing. I think it can be made much slicker & cheaper - if it had been done so a few years ago then the current situation might be different - but you are not even on the starting line yet and the longer you leave it, the race might just get cancelled.
And with that, I will return once again to the Shadowlands.
For info, I have nothing to do with police - rather a different organisation that has things that go bang. Many years ago we embarked on bringing the different colours of the organisation together - plagued with protectionsism and self-interest. In fact the resistance to change was legionary and we failed to achieve what we might have done, the budget increasingly went pear-shaped and the price (subsequently) had to be paid. So, yes I have some sympathy where perhaps you do not but then you perhaps have not encountered how difficult all this is, which of course is not your fault. So sorry, it is an issue close to my heart but for historical reasons.
I was always facsinated by the police having so many different empires, with different equipment and all doing pretty much the same thing. I think it can be made much slicker & cheaper - if it had been done so a few years ago then the current situation might be different - but you are not even on the starting line yet and the longer you leave it, the race might just get cancelled.
And with that, I will return once again to the Shadowlands.
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Regarding "cross border ops". We used to routinely do this. The only time a cost issue came into it was when a neighbouring force with no air support of their own asked for air support for a pre-planned operation, as they would for any other form of assistance from another force.
One point that seems to have been swept under the carpet so far. Helicopters sometimes get involved with long distance chases. Spreading resources more thinly (as per NPAS) will surely result in some vehicles / runners escaping simply because the helicopter needs to leave the pursuit to refuel.
It's actually very efficient for a helicopter reaching the edge of its normal operating area to pass on the job to the next ASU, who have arrived freshly refuelled and have the local knowledge required for many more difficult jobs.
In a national system the aircraft are likely to become stretched in terms of both fuel endurance and a lack of local knowledge of the crew.
One point that seems to have been swept under the carpet so far. Helicopters sometimes get involved with long distance chases. Spreading resources more thinly (as per NPAS) will surely result in some vehicles / runners escaping simply because the helicopter needs to leave the pursuit to refuel.
It's actually very efficient for a helicopter reaching the edge of its normal operating area to pass on the job to the next ASU, who have arrived freshly refuelled and have the local knowledge required for many more difficult jobs.
In a national system the aircraft are likely to become stretched in terms of both fuel endurance and a lack of local knowledge of the crew.