UK Police helicopter budget cuts
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I don't understand it. The biggest cause of helicopter accidents is pilot error. So what does the campaign do about it? make em use a twin. 
or a more controversial, yet related to the above answer;
Maybe because if 'the campaign' ensure twin engined helicopters are used for these type of operations, they'll get an adult flying them!
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 30th Jun 2010 at 20:30. Reason: edited to add...Generally get an adult ;-)
Originally Posted by chopjock
...Being as they don't fly at night...
I'm going back to fixed-wing if they try to give me a single.
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Sorry Floppy - he hasn't suggested using planks to replace Air Ambulances ( Yet ).
Re-arrange the following anagram : Hijack Pact - So Wot ?
( ... and if you do work it out, I refer to Number 3. of the taboo slang definition at FreeDictionary.com )
Re-arrange the following anagram : Hijack Pact - So Wot ?
( ... and if you do work it out, I refer to Number 3. of the taboo slang definition at FreeDictionary.com )
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Glad he wrote that reply, it was a bit of a come-on from me. If a single landed in a field, then great. So lets have a single for the countryside and a twin for the city. We do both, so two helicopters for us. Brilliant, thats cheap 
I also wrote STUPID in capitals, to emphasise my point. Chopjock, the mods would get upset if I was any more offensive, but stupid will suffice. Exemptions are used in the extreme, every time I use them I ask myself 'Is this really worth it'. What you are suggesting, is flying using a PERMANENT exemption. This is not acceptable.
I will let you into a secret, a lot of charities keep the aircraft funded by accepting patient transfers, often between inner city hospitals. This is public transport and would not be sensible in a single. One accident would kill the practice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but could a single operate into city centre hospitals when it wasn't on a Hems mission? Without this supplementary income, some units would simply not exist. People bite here when you comment, however the press read these forums and could use their influence to misinform the public. This is not a joke where you can wind up some pilots and have a laugh. Police and EMS aviation is a deadly serious and professional activity, we NEED the correct tools for the job. The British Army COULD operate in Afghanistan with Lee Enfield rifles and horses, the RAF COULD use Cessna 152s for training and the Navy COULD use canoes. You really are wrong in what you say.
I also wrote STUPID in capitals, to emphasise my point. Chopjock, the mods would get upset if I was any more offensive, but stupid will suffice. Exemptions are used in the extreme, every time I use them I ask myself 'Is this really worth it'. What you are suggesting, is flying using a PERMANENT exemption. This is not acceptable.
I will let you into a secret, a lot of charities keep the aircraft funded by accepting patient transfers, often between inner city hospitals. This is public transport and would not be sensible in a single. One accident would kill the practice. Correct me if I'm wrong, but could a single operate into city centre hospitals when it wasn't on a Hems mission? Without this supplementary income, some units would simply not exist. People bite here when you comment, however the press read these forums and could use their influence to misinform the public. This is not a joke where you can wind up some pilots and have a laugh. Police and EMS aviation is a deadly serious and professional activity, we NEED the correct tools for the job. The British Army COULD operate in Afghanistan with Lee Enfield rifles and horses, the RAF COULD use Cessna 152s for training and the Navy COULD use canoes. You really are wrong in what you say.
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jay
Perhaps. But this is a discussion and in a discussion you need to see the other point of view. It works in the USA.
Sure there are places when a twin should be used and there are places when a twin is not necessary. But carrying a spare engine all the time? that's a waste and someone has to pay for it.
You really are wrong in what you say.
Sure there are places when a twin should be used and there are places when a twin is not necessary. But carrying a spare engine all the time? that's a waste and someone has to pay for it.
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Actually Chop, your last post was probably one of your most sensible so far and I commend you for it. The word 'perhaps' shows signs of consideration.
You are correct in saying that the system does work in the USA. I have flown privately a bit over there and the sheer size of the area to be covered means that an operator requires a range of machines to do the job. Hospitals and HLSs often are on the outskirts of towns or they have extensive grounds available. Large cities are as densely populated as anything over here. Unfortunately in the UK we are not as blessed with assets and space. We have to make do with a tiny amount of airframes compared to the states. We ask them to do so much more with so little. I flew with the US Coastguard in Miami a few years ago and they had more SAR machines in one base than we have in the UK in total.
This means helicopter units of all persuasions need a machine that can SAFELY (there is where you disagree with most here) do the most difficult task on a long list. A twin IFR cab with all the bells and whistles is not only desirable in the ideal world, it is pretty much essential in the real world.
Lets go on to your suggestions on singles...... We could use singles in the Police/EMS world. Never mind exemptions or rules or sensibility, it would work just fine and dandy until there was one incident. The backlash if a member of the public was killed would be beyond belief. The question would simply be: 'Why did you use a single engined aircraft, when a twin could have prevented this from happening?' Saving money would not be an acceptable answer and heads would roll. I have a family who depend on me being alive, why should I operate a machine day in, day out, that is not as safe because of financial cutbacks. I truly believe, without burying my head in the sand, that authorities either give you the CORRECT tools for the job or don't bother doing the job.
Your last comment on carrying a spare engine can be manipulated to give the answer: You carry the expensive spare engine around for the times it is needed...... simples!
You are correct in saying that the system does work in the USA. I have flown privately a bit over there and the sheer size of the area to be covered means that an operator requires a range of machines to do the job. Hospitals and HLSs often are on the outskirts of towns or they have extensive grounds available. Large cities are as densely populated as anything over here. Unfortunately in the UK we are not as blessed with assets and space. We have to make do with a tiny amount of airframes compared to the states. We ask them to do so much more with so little. I flew with the US Coastguard in Miami a few years ago and they had more SAR machines in one base than we have in the UK in total.
This means helicopter units of all persuasions need a machine that can SAFELY (there is where you disagree with most here) do the most difficult task on a long list. A twin IFR cab with all the bells and whistles is not only desirable in the ideal world, it is pretty much essential in the real world.
Lets go on to your suggestions on singles...... We could use singles in the Police/EMS world. Never mind exemptions or rules or sensibility, it would work just fine and dandy until there was one incident. The backlash if a member of the public was killed would be beyond belief. The question would simply be: 'Why did you use a single engined aircraft, when a twin could have prevented this from happening?' Saving money would not be an acceptable answer and heads would roll. I have a family who depend on me being alive, why should I operate a machine day in, day out, that is not as safe because of financial cutbacks. I truly believe, without burying my head in the sand, that authorities either give you the CORRECT tools for the job or don't bother doing the job.
Your last comment on carrying a spare engine can be manipulated to give the answer: You carry the expensive spare engine around for the times it is needed...... simples!
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41 hours last month, no nights/scrotes with lasers and an adoring public. What was the question again?????????????
SS
I am not plod bashing, all I am doing is playing devils advocate with you plod boys. You have to have answers to what people are going to say to you to defend your position. It is no good saying we are brilliant at what we do even if you are. In this day and age where bean counters run everything you have to justify what you do and how you do it and with what. If you go down the blinkered avenue that most speak about it is YOU that will loose to the bean counters. You only need one incident of waste foe the bean counter sto be all over you, even if it is just a rumour. An example for you : Heard on the radio a police call sign going to Birmingham International Airport, a trip of 120 nm, less than 2 hours later going back to base.
Now prey tell me what was this flight for ? No you cant and neither can I, but it sounds like someone being dropped off to go " on holiday" Why else would the force helicopter go more than 100nm from base ( across 4 or 5 different counties) and come back 2 hours later ? This sort of trip is music to a bean counters ears, a good excuse to get in and see what is going on. While a lot of what chopjock has said you may not like it ( with justification) has caused alot of you to justify your positions with some very strong arguments - good for you get the practisce in now
Remember perception and assumption are very dangerous words, just because you assume you are doing a good cost effective job doesnt mean someone else thinks the same way, espically when it comes to losing their budgets.
Like any taxpayer I wish to see my money well spent, I dont have a bottomless pocket to spend on all the whistles and toys. I am sure it would be nice for you guys to go around in Chinooks so you can have a patrol car, landrove,r firearms team, dog team in the back. Obviously that will never happen ( yes I know its not practical ) but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Keep biting or is that bitching
I am not plod bashing, all I am doing is playing devils advocate with you plod boys. You have to have answers to what people are going to say to you to defend your position. It is no good saying we are brilliant at what we do even if you are. In this day and age where bean counters run everything you have to justify what you do and how you do it and with what. If you go down the blinkered avenue that most speak about it is YOU that will loose to the bean counters. You only need one incident of waste foe the bean counter sto be all over you, even if it is just a rumour. An example for you : Heard on the radio a police call sign going to Birmingham International Airport, a trip of 120 nm, less than 2 hours later going back to base.
Now prey tell me what was this flight for ? No you cant and neither can I, but it sounds like someone being dropped off to go " on holiday" Why else would the force helicopter go more than 100nm from base ( across 4 or 5 different counties) and come back 2 hours later ? This sort of trip is music to a bean counters ears, a good excuse to get in and see what is going on. While a lot of what chopjock has said you may not like it ( with justification) has caused alot of you to justify your positions with some very strong arguments - good for you get the practisce in now
Remember perception and assumption are very dangerous words, just because you assume you are doing a good cost effective job doesnt mean someone else thinks the same way, espically when it comes to losing their budgets.
Like any taxpayer I wish to see my money well spent, I dont have a bottomless pocket to spend on all the whistles and toys. I am sure it would be nice for you guys to go around in Chinooks so you can have a patrol car, landrove,r firearms team, dog team in the back. Obviously that will never happen ( yes I know its not practical ) but the line has to be drawn somewhere.
Keep biting or is that bitching
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Heard on the radio a police call sign going to Birmingham International Airport, a trip of 120 nm, less than 2 hours later going back to base.
Such as WHICH Call sign and WHEN ?
IF it was a colleague of theirs being dropped off at the airport to go on holiday,
I would be absolutely amazed, shocked and stunned,
and so would the Tax paying public - if it were true !
I am aware that there are some perfectly legitimate reasons for" Police call signs" from all over the Country
to call in to EGBB, and then depart some time later, perhaps after re-fuelling.
I am not at liberty to discuss what those legitimate reasons might be,
although they would be classed as "Police purposes", and will have
absolutely nothing to do with dropping a mate off to catch a commercial flight.
If you KNOW that what you have suggested is factual, then it is very worrying indeed.
If you're just guessing, then your comments, like many of Chopjock's, have the potenial to misinform the public,
and may ultimately have a negative impact upon the services being provided.
What could you do in 2 hours ?
Pre position for a task?
Carry out some essential maintenance? EC engineers in very short supply so they may have had to go to the nearest engineer.
Pre position for a task?
Carry out some essential maintenance? EC engineers in very short supply so they may have had to go to the nearest engineer.
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but it sounds like someone being dropped off to go " on holiday"
If you really think your getting a good handle on police ops from the ATC traffic them im afraid your in another world.. and your comment above is just proof of the pudding.
I got b*ll**ed last year for parking a marked police car at a fish and chip shop to collect my lunch, on my way back to the unit from a meeting.. DURING MY LUNCH BREAK.. and it was parked IN THE CAR PARK..
someone busybody decided it was unethical for me to be there and rang in.!!!
professional standards straight on the phone to my gaffer..
this is the real world my friend.. if you really think police a/c are being used to drop off colleagues to go on holiday, i suggest you save your efforts for the roswell, JFK and 911 conspiracy forums. Your last post, lost you what little credibility you may have had on here.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Deleted post as I really have lost interest in this one;
You have scraped your barrel with the cheapest of shots this time old chum.
You have scraped your barrel with the cheapest of shots this time old chum.
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 1st Jul 2010 at 18:12.
IT IS NOT A CHEAP SHOT it is how accountants and bean counters look at areas when saving money. Ever been asked to justify your departments spending to senior management ? Ever had every line of your budget expenses gone through ? Remember the thread was about budget cuts, I have been trying to get you guys to understand how in the big real world bean counters react. I am sorry you cant see it that way, I am trying to help you guys keep your machines your hours and your jobs. Once a bean counter has got his claws into something because he hears on the grapevine something, watch this space. Been there, seen it and done it, it is not nice, espically when you have to tell staff they have lost their jobs.
The " holiday " was an example of how a bean counter gets a perception and an assumption in his mind. Quite frankly I dont really care why the machine went to Birmingham, I am sure there was a perfectly good reason
SS you are quite right time to give up
The " holiday " was an example of how a bean counter gets a perception and an assumption in his mind. Quite frankly I dont really care why the machine went to Birmingham, I am sure there was a perfectly good reason
SS you are quite right time to give up
Hughes 500
Hughes!! For heavens sake get real! There are any number of reasons why a Police Heli might need to go to Birmingham Int, with nothing whatsoever to do with the normal business of the airport. For a start there is another Police unit based there. There could well have been an urgent need to deliver a vital piece of kit or collect or drop off a security orientated load.
No aircraft can use the airfield without first checking in with ATC. In accordance with proper practice, only the briefest of details such as call sign will be given. Do you really expect him to tell the world what he is up to, or the purpose of his visit? But why assume he is doing anything other than a legitimate task? There are many Police tasks done every day that of necessity are not shouted to all in sundry.
I can understand to an extent your desire to play the devils advocate but do get real! I know nothing about the task in question, neither do I care, but I can 100% guarantee you that there would have been a legitimate reason for it. Every unit knows full well that you do not pull a stroke such as you suggest, without it becoming common knowledge very quickly. Any transgressor would be off the unit so quick their feet wouldnt even touch the ground. Please do get real, you might find it common place to pull such a trick in your world, but it does not happen in ours!
We keep full flight logs which are constantly scrutinised in depth. There is no routine patroling carried out in the UK, every flight has to have a stated and logged reason! Your suggestion is just so wide of the mark, that you clearly know nothing about Police Air ops, or the quality of the personnel so involved. I cannot believe you are an adult.
Tigerfish ( Not only grumpy this time but bloody cross too! )
No aircraft can use the airfield without first checking in with ATC. In accordance with proper practice, only the briefest of details such as call sign will be given. Do you really expect him to tell the world what he is up to, or the purpose of his visit? But why assume he is doing anything other than a legitimate task? There are many Police tasks done every day that of necessity are not shouted to all in sundry.
I can understand to an extent your desire to play the devils advocate but do get real! I know nothing about the task in question, neither do I care, but I can 100% guarantee you that there would have been a legitimate reason for it. Every unit knows full well that you do not pull a stroke such as you suggest, without it becoming common knowledge very quickly. Any transgressor would be off the unit so quick their feet wouldnt even touch the ground. Please do get real, you might find it common place to pull such a trick in your world, but it does not happen in ours!
We keep full flight logs which are constantly scrutinised in depth. There is no routine patroling carried out in the UK, every flight has to have a stated and logged reason! Your suggestion is just so wide of the mark, that you clearly know nothing about Police Air ops, or the quality of the personnel so involved. I cannot believe you are an adult.
Tigerfish ( Not only grumpy this time but bloody cross too! )
Last edited by tigerfish; 2nd Jul 2010 at 14:55. Reason: Error
Remember the thread was about budget cuts, I have been trying to get you guys to understand how in the big real world bean counters react. I am sorry you cant see it that way, I am trying to help you guys keep your machines your hours and your jobs.
I'd suggest that you have a look at the Police bean counters, trust me the ASU's get away with nothing.
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Dear oh Dear....
So why do you start off a whole bloody vineyard - by suggesting the improper use of the Police helicopter,
with NOTHING to back up what you said, other than idle speculation, borne out of a total lack of underdstanding
and appreciation of what has been said by all those that DO know what they are talking
.. and then still have the gall to say :
I don't think that kind of "help" is at all helpful ! 
Once a bean counter has got his claws into something because he hears on the grapevine something, watch this space.
with NOTHING to back up what you said, other than idle speculation, borne out of a total lack of underdstanding
and appreciation of what has been said by all those that DO know what they are talking
.. and then still have the gall to say :
I am trying to help you guys keep your machines your hours and your jobs.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I really have lost interest in this one;
I'd have to spoil the party and tell them that it was because after a few local garden and rooftop searches, we ended up on a 110 mile pursuit. When it was all over I had to go in for fuel as I didn't have enough to get back to base. Of course I wouldn't mention having to have a debrief, brew, biscuits, put the world to rights and plan the trip back while I was there.
I think that puts you in the picture about what goes on sometimes Hughsey.
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But carrying a spare engine all the time? that's a waste and someone has to pay for it.
I'm well aware that singles are cheaper to run than twins, but if you want to do any job properly you need the right tools. Under the current legislation operating a single in this country would severely restrict activities in built up areas and at night and would result in an inaffective aerial deterent to crime. If the government of this country are serious about reducing crime, they need to realise that the proper funding needs to be put in place to not only sustain the Air Support infrastructure we have at the moment, but also to allow for upgrades as new technology becomes available.