UK Police helicopter budget cuts

[J.A.F.O.]

PANews

I'll give you the money for the stamp next time I see you.

[mickjoebill]

Savings have been quoted as £15M.
What is this as a % of total operating costs?



mickjoebill

[SilsoeSid]

Back to making savings.

Perhaps we could look at the saving that could be made if Tracker weren't asked to activate tracker units for whatever reason, or BT weren't asked to ping mobiles.
If you think these criminal catching, vehicle recovering, misper finding methods, using commercial companies, are free..... think again !
Why do they need authorisation from senior supervisory rank!

If we are cutting back on helicopters, let's cut back on a device that ties up a lot of resources for just one recovery. Unless of course, money can be generated from a company that wouldn't be able to continue if the police stopped using their kit.

[Skidkid]

.... a company that wouldn't be able to continue if the police stopped using their kit.

Rubbish - Most modern Tracker units have GPS Tracking as well and don't need police vehicles or aircraft to locate them. Police involvement is a nicety and not essential.

.... a device that ties up a lot of resources for just one recovery.

That seems to be a decision for police supervisors or control rooms and nothing do do with Tracker Ltd. Surely, one Tracker equipped car or one Tracker equipped aircraft plus a ground person is not "a lot of resources".

[timex]

Personally I'd rather buy a steering lock than fit Tracker..

[SilsoeSid]

Anyone heard the line over the radio or read on the log, 'Standown resources, the Tracker company vehicle has located the stolen vehicle'!


A line to get back on thread;
Skidkid

Surely, one Tracker equipped car or one Tracker equipped aircraft plus a ground person is not "a lot of resources".

But surely a helicopter is a 'lot of resource', as that is why we are having UK Police helicopter budget cuts

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Rubbish - Most modern Tracker units have GPS Tracking as well and don't need police vehicles or aircraft to locate them. Police involvement is a nicety and not essential.

Wrong.

The basic package which is fitted to most vehicles does not have the GPS function. If it did your right

The GPS function is a bit more expensive and therefore rarely fitted. Now trackstar a different company is a gps function and has a motion sensor fitted so you don't even need to realise your cars gone. Now thats a service.

Having had trackers fitted to several of my cars in the past I would not touch tracker with a barge pole

[Skidkid]

Personally I'd rather buy a steering lock than fit Tracker

Certainly cheaper, I grant you, but it won't stop a determined thief. Joyriders - maybe; a thief after a high value vehicle - no way.

But surely a helicopter is a 'lot of resource'

I'll bet you are the first to be running out to the helicopter if there is a pursuit involved.

The basic package which is fitted to most vehicles does not have the GPS function.

Correct, but there are not many of those sold anymore.

The GPS function is a bit more expensive ...

Correct.

... and therefore rarely fitted.

More rubbish. Tracker Horizon, Tracker Locate and Tracker Plant all have GPS tracking and form the bulk of Tracker sales nowadays.

Now trackstar ........ has a motion sensor fitted so you don't even need to realise your cars gone.

Correct - just the same as Tracker Monitor, Tracker Horizon, Tracker Locate and Tracker Plant!!

Now thats a service.

Now, despite what you think, I don't work for Tracker or even have any shares with them. I just wish that others would check their facts before writing such rubbish.

[huntnhound]

Tracker was rubbish in the end.
It was good when it first came out. In fact BMW had a deal where tracker was fitted to every new vehicle, they thought it such a good idea. Trouble was the dummies that fitted them found out that all the units were fitted in the the same place. ie the inside of the drivers door. Scuzzies took about three minutes to work that one out and then every tiome they stole a BMW they would chuck the device. I spent and hour once tracking a BMW to a garage roof. At the same time they changed their price structure and and so started the downward spiral.
It was common to launch the aircraft several times a day for tracker activations. At the end of my career they were rarer than hens teeth, and after all one has to ask why launch the helicopter to recover one of their vehicles stolen, when others being taken-not tracker fitted- by armed robbery were just as worthy a task? Mind you we hardly had time to look for Trackers as the aircraft was being deployed to school fetes, fly bys, useless box ticking "vunerable" mispers who were usually found in the pub, and intelligence lead patrols..most of which were pacifying the lusts of ill promoted managers so they could look good at the next meeting. More intelligence was soaked up by sitting down with a traffic man and having a cup of tea, than the endless hours sitting in front of useless computer systems ( none of which matched or spoke to each other).
The job hasnt changed for nearly thirty years. The aircraft had the ability to see in the dark and it was , and still is , about finding a burglar in a bush.
Now if the dicks in charge want to change all that, its their toy. But the changes being talked about will not save money, furthermore they wont happen for another ten years. So if your a driver aged 50, go and put the kettle on and make the troops some tea for a change. And if your a bobby with twenty years in, look after the driver. Stop worrying about something that isnt going to happen.
Hnh

[SilsoeSid]

I'll bet you are the first to be running out to the helicopter if there is a pursuit involved.

1. No, that sort of behaviour leads to silly mistakes being made!
2. And just where does Tracker come into this pursuit?

Certainly cheaper, I grant you, but it (steering lock) won't stop a determined thief. Joyriders - maybe; a thief after a high value vehicle - no way.

Only because they will probably have the keys!
Anyway, just how does Tracker stop a car being stolen?

[chopper2004]

Judging by how the resources are stretched once NPAS comes into force wonder if its conincidence that AgustaWestland unveiled the AW169 mock up in police colours as well as the PDF brochure over the summer at Farnborough as AW are sepcifically targeting the ASU community.

Therefore IMHO, looking at the 169 specs, could it be concievable that this be the ideal platform to provide the coverage in lieu of the forthcoming changes doing more with less so to speak? For examaple in my neck of the woods being Cambs, and the only air support predicted for 2012 will come from the other side of the Bury Road while if troubles afoot near the Wash then it be the same support.

I'm probably 180 if not 360 degrees from the plain truth with my theory nonetheless its a theory that the propositioning of the 169 around the time when the NPAS is being made more and more official so the AW folks reckon it be the perfect platform to fit tommorrow's UK police needs.

Cheers
Chopper2004

[RotaryWingB2]

Wheels? I thought the operators preferred skids.

I can't see it making a significant dent in the UK Police market.

[PANews]

The 169 promises to be a great platform, the problem is not the wheels [they can be skidded at the drop of a hat] but its size.

For day to day police operations the real need is something the size of a AS355 [AS350 if a single - there are reasons it is so popular] but with the lifting ability and endurance the 355 cannot offer so having a 169 [or 365, 145 etc etc] is just a waste of airframe but the only way to get the ooomph. The problem is there is nothing around that fits the bill, certainly nothing JAR certified so we have the choice of minimalist 902/135/145 [each with added games room space] for the moment unless the eventual 'old technology 109/355' replacement solves the problem years ahead.

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Skidkid grow up

Now, despite what you think, I don't work for Tracker or even have any shares with them. I just wish that others would check their facts before writing such rubbish.

Fact I have had several cars with second hand fitted trackers and had to have the system current to keep the insurance happy. But they are crap. The thing they don't tell you is it can take up to 24 hrs to activate. Bit late if its out of the country.

Oh and I have also tried to chase a stolen scooby on a tracker. Which having lost sight of it thought I could just just follow the tracker arrow. Wrong..

Wouldn't waste my money

[Skidkid]

The thing they don't tell you is it can take up to 24 hrs to activate.

Yet again, as a general statement, complete and utter rubbish!!!!

It is true that if the vehicle is located in a poor signal strength area, such as a lock-up or an underground carpark, it may take a while for the activation signal to penetrate. In an open area, though, it will usually activate in less than ten minutes. I have known several activate in under a minute.

Also, if you've got a second hand one, did you ask Tracker to replace the internal battery?

Which having lost sight of it thought I could just just follow the tracker arrow. Wrong..

Over the years, I estimate that I have searched for nearly 100 Trackers. I have lost only a very few, and usually because we have decided that they are well "off area". There is definitely a 'technique' to locating a Tracker which, maybe, you don't have. Get to the area as quickly as possible but then take it very gently when you get there. Nice and slow, gentle turns, keep a level attitude as long as possible and you won't go wrong.

I am not going to rise to the bait about "growing up". I have.

[20Minuter]

Skidkid

I am with you on this. Tracker UK does a lot of technical work for the Police which is not publicised. I am not going to expand about that here, and I don't work for them either.

The fact that the original thread has degenerated into "lets bash Tracker" or somebody says it all really.

[Retro Coupe]

Savings have been quoted as £15M.
What is this as a % of total operating costs?

MJB
Air Support in England and Wales costs £59.1M/year (source: NPIA/NPAS) with a desire to reduce that to £42M. When you consider the size of the national debt, £59.1M seems like a drop in the ocean. Yes I know a lot of drops can mount up, but considering how much emphasis political parties of all persuasions put on fighting crime, to cut the Air Support budget by 29% is I would suggest too much too soon.

In fact NPAS have not visited Colerne at all.

Why doesn't that surprise me? Why would you site one of your assets (which will be doing what 2 aircraft are currently doing) at an airfield 593' amsl. In a former life (non PAOC) I used to operate out of Luton (525' amsl) at some times of the year you could neither get in or out due to fog, which could often take longer to clear than the surrounding and lower lying areas.

[tigerfish]

I don't believe it!

I really am about to give up! UK Police Aviation is threatened with the greatest challenge to its very existance since the day it was formed, and most useful thing that you can offer is to argue about the relative merits of Tracker! No wonder that you have been back footed. How many PA Chairs have you written to? How many MP's have you lobbied? Don't bother to reply. I can guess!

The concept of NPAS is 100% correct. The devil is in the detail.

What should have been done is this. (1) Create the corporate body. (2) Take over control of all existing ASU's in their current positions. (3) Re -negotiate all existing contracts for Buildings, equipment,Communications, fuel, Insurance, Maintenance, Pilots, support facilities etc on a bulk basis. (4) Run the whole shebang for about 18 months to two years as it is now, so that you know exactly what works and what do's not. (5) And then start to make changes from a position of strength.

If you really do believe that what we had was of any value, for gods sake concentrate your attentions on what is happening and do not go off on pointless arguements about role equipement which may or may not have passed its best.

Ole Grumpy is having real difficulty in believing that many of you are really able to concentrate on the main subject here!

Tigerfish

[SilsoeSid]

There is definitely a 'technique' to locating a Tracker which, maybe, you don't have. Get to the area as quickly as possible but then take it very gently when you get there.

So will this central despatch system authorise the deployment of an aircraft as soon as a Tracker activation is made?

[Senior Pilot]

I initially saw the discussion including Tracker to be relevant, especially when mooted as a possible revenue stream/offset to UK Police funding.

This thread now appears to be on the point of being hijacked, so any further discussion about Tracker will be on another thread. Off topic posts will either be binned or moved