Any Police Helicopters used as Air Ambulances
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Pie Man
Perhaps I should explain. If you have a pool of resources and you need one air ambulance and one Police machine then that's what you draw from the pool. If you need to use (one of) the standby machine because their is a major todo in your area then you get what you need. If you have a seasonal need in tourist areas then likewise.
If you ask a Turkey what he thinks about Christmas there's a fighting chance you can guess his reply. Therefore, based on the old addage of 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing then you can guess what Sussex boys will say if you asked them how good the service was. Now ask them if they could do more and do it better if they had two machines. Predictable I know but in view of your comments Mr Pie Man, I have to make the point. Believe me Men and Women Of Sussex, you don't know what you are missing doing it in this cheapskate way. Just publish your dispatch protocols then we can all have a good laugh. How far up the clinical priority list does an unconscious faller come compared with a hot pursuit of a much wanted ned who has just stabbed a copper.
Sorry about being so hard-nosed about this but nobody in this position should ever do anything other than confess that it comes a poor second to doing it properly. To do so would just perpetuate the myth than you can be good at two jobs with just one (compromised) resource.
CKD
If you ask a Turkey what he thinks about Christmas there's a fighting chance you can guess his reply. Therefore, based on the old addage of 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing then you can guess what Sussex boys will say if you asked them how good the service was. Now ask them if they could do more and do it better if they had two machines. Predictable I know but in view of your comments Mr Pie Man, I have to make the point. Believe me Men and Women Of Sussex, you don't know what you are missing doing it in this cheapskate way. Just publish your dispatch protocols then we can all have a good laugh. How far up the clinical priority list does an unconscious faller come compared with a hot pursuit of a much wanted ned who has just stabbed a copper.
Sorry about being so hard-nosed about this but nobody in this position should ever do anything other than confess that it comes a poor second to doing it properly. To do so would just perpetuate the myth than you can be good at two jobs with just one (compromised) resource.
CKD
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C.Korsky
In a perfect world with unlimited funds yes, a "pool of resources" would be lovely.
However, this is the real world, Sussex are doing the real job with the resources they have to hand and the system works extremely well (in that part of the world).
By the way, Their first priority is "preservation of life" and you can take that any way you like. I presume you are laughing like a drain now?
I look forward to further waffle about Turkeys and 100% of nothing
However, this is the real world, Sussex are doing the real job with the resources they have to hand and the system works extremely well (in that part of the world).
By the way, Their first priority is "preservation of life" and you can take that any way you like. I presume you are laughing like a drain now?
I look forward to further waffle about Turkeys and 100% of nothing
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Pie-Lover
Well therein lies the rub. If you were truly aiming at the preservation of life then you be carrying two medical personnel (sorry - a Bobby with his First Aid certificate wont be eligible even if he is good) and not a Bobby plus Paramedic.
I think you will find that it is generally recognised in the HEMS world that due to the difficulties of monitoring vital signs in flight and the multiple tasks involved, seriously ill/injured patients require TWO clinicians who have enough training and experience to justify whatever title they 'wear'.
SO you see you cannot hide behind the fact that your stated priority - "The preservation Of Life" is somewhat compromised.
As for wishing the impossible I should point out that we wished for Air Ambulances for 15 years and dreamt of a network covering all of UK. Well it took Cornwall to show the way and 20 years on we are nearly there. "Ah!" I hear you say, "But what was the government's role in all this?" Well you would have a point but a 'faint heart never won a fair maid'.
If somebody doesn't light the way then we will never get there - will we?
CKD
I think you will find that it is generally recognised in the HEMS world that due to the difficulties of monitoring vital signs in flight and the multiple tasks involved, seriously ill/injured patients require TWO clinicians who have enough training and experience to justify whatever title they 'wear'.
SO you see you cannot hide behind the fact that your stated priority - "The preservation Of Life" is somewhat compromised.
As for wishing the impossible I should point out that we wished for Air Ambulances for 15 years and dreamt of a network covering all of UK. Well it took Cornwall to show the way and 20 years on we are nearly there. "Ah!" I hear you say, "But what was the government's role in all this?" Well you would have a point but a 'faint heart never won a fair maid'.
If somebody doesn't light the way then we will never get there - will we?
CKD
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CK,
You can always improve performance by adding resources, but in the real world there will be a limit to what you can spend.
If we looked at a busy police helicopter unit, say covering a metropolitan area, it also has to make choices about how it deploys to tasks when 2 are offered up at the same time. There is nothing special in the combined HEMS/police unit about deployment decisions and priorities. That same met area could be covered by 2 police helicopters. This would reduce the number of times that conflicting tasks came up at the same time, but never entirely remove the possibility.
If you have a typical county police force that chooses not to provide enough funds for a police helicopter just for its own use, it has 2 choices:
- to combine ops with another service that operates in roughly the same area;
- to combine ops with another police force or forces in adjoining areas
You have ID'd some of the possible disadvantages of the former option. You ommitted one of its main advantages: that combined HEMS/police can operate during the night too.
However, there are significant disadvantages to the latter wide area pure police hele too. The main one relates to the increased distance and time that you will be away from tasks. Some police jobs are not time critical but lots of them are. Turning up 20 minutes later to a break in progress means that you probably wasted all the flying time. You did not fail to respond but the chances of getting a successful outcome was much reduced. The same applies to vehicle pursuits.
If you have 2 helicopters to cover 2 counties for police and HEMS, is it better to have a single police and a single HEMS helicopter covering BOTH counties or 2 combined police/HEMS helicopters covering both counties?
That is a real choice and IMHO an interesting question.
You can always improve performance by adding resources, but in the real world there will be a limit to what you can spend.
If we looked at a busy police helicopter unit, say covering a metropolitan area, it also has to make choices about how it deploys to tasks when 2 are offered up at the same time. There is nothing special in the combined HEMS/police unit about deployment decisions and priorities. That same met area could be covered by 2 police helicopters. This would reduce the number of times that conflicting tasks came up at the same time, but never entirely remove the possibility.
If you have a typical county police force that chooses not to provide enough funds for a police helicopter just for its own use, it has 2 choices:
- to combine ops with another service that operates in roughly the same area;
- to combine ops with another police force or forces in adjoining areas
You have ID'd some of the possible disadvantages of the former option. You ommitted one of its main advantages: that combined HEMS/police can operate during the night too.
However, there are significant disadvantages to the latter wide area pure police hele too. The main one relates to the increased distance and time that you will be away from tasks. Some police jobs are not time critical but lots of them are. Turning up 20 minutes later to a break in progress means that you probably wasted all the flying time. You did not fail to respond but the chances of getting a successful outcome was much reduced. The same applies to vehicle pursuits.
If you have 2 helicopters to cover 2 counties for police and HEMS, is it better to have a single police and a single HEMS helicopter covering BOTH counties or 2 combined police/HEMS helicopters covering both counties?
That is a real choice and IMHO an interesting question.
It should be on the local news again this evening though. South Today or Meridian, I guess.)Hovering AND talking
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You may be missing the point.........
.......A minority of HEMS missions are truly life-saving but you never know that this is going to be the case until later. Crucially the difference between a successful outcome and an unsuccessful outcome is often the level of care the HEMS team can deliver and if you dilute this in any way - yes in ANY way - you risk the latter.
It is so tempting and so attractive to put these two roles in the same box but the reality is, I suggest, totally the opposite. It is the politicians convenient get-out. We can't really afford it but......... wallop! two for the price of one and Robert's your mother's brother ...... that will keep those do-gooding bunch of wingers off our backs.
We have a unique funding arrangement in the UK where the majority of HEMS are financed directly by the public through donations. Try asking for hand-outs for your local Constabulary Aviation Unit and see what joy you get. I suggest that it is the Cops who are up against it here so in effect somebody is doing a very good sales number on the folk of Sussex that results in their HEMS Op being second rate. I say again, ask the Sussex Ambulance Trust if they would like their own machine, assuming of course that the funds were available to support it.
One of the least understood ways in which the HEMS chopper makes the Ambulance Service more effective is its contribution to the logistical equation. If you sit in the control room day after day you can watch the random nature of the job. In no time flat you have no resources available and a serious RTA to deal with. Not only can the chopper cover your entire area but it can also help to move non-serious cases out of the system more quickly. In the more rural parts of the UK an ambulance can be out of the system for 4 or more hours dealing with a moderately serious patient's trip to a General Hospital. In the meantime the guy who has a heart attack snuffs it because HIS ambulance (the one covering his area) is away to the bright lights.
I could go on but I would bore you. As for night Ops well that could be solved overnight if we made all HEMS flights a part of 'Government Operations' and took them away from JAROPS 3. There is nothing special about Police Helicopters, they just have the benefit of the POM. Don't get me going on that one.......
CKD
It is so tempting and so attractive to put these two roles in the same box but the reality is, I suggest, totally the opposite. It is the politicians convenient get-out. We can't really afford it but......... wallop! two for the price of one and Robert's your mother's brother ...... that will keep those do-gooding bunch of wingers off our backs.
We have a unique funding arrangement in the UK where the majority of HEMS are financed directly by the public through donations. Try asking for hand-outs for your local Constabulary Aviation Unit and see what joy you get. I suggest that it is the Cops who are up against it here so in effect somebody is doing a very good sales number on the folk of Sussex that results in their HEMS Op being second rate. I say again, ask the Sussex Ambulance Trust if they would like their own machine, assuming of course that the funds were available to support it.
One of the least understood ways in which the HEMS chopper makes the Ambulance Service more effective is its contribution to the logistical equation. If you sit in the control room day after day you can watch the random nature of the job. In no time flat you have no resources available and a serious RTA to deal with. Not only can the chopper cover your entire area but it can also help to move non-serious cases out of the system more quickly. In the more rural parts of the UK an ambulance can be out of the system for 4 or more hours dealing with a moderately serious patient's trip to a General Hospital. In the meantime the guy who has a heart attack snuffs it because HIS ambulance (the one covering his area) is away to the bright lights.
I could go on but I would bore you. As for night Ops well that could be solved overnight if we made all HEMS flights a part of 'Government Operations' and took them away from JAROPS 3. There is nothing special about Police Helicopters, they just have the benefit of the POM. Don't get me going on that one.......
CKD
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Don't get me going on that one.......
Yes, here we go again, "in a perfect world" blah, blah, blah.
I could go on but I would bore you.
Whoate - the whole of the air ambulance setup in UK is second rate - it has to be because it is day/VMC and needs to be night/IFR/NVG to provide what the public should get, ie 24/7 cover. Neither can the AA helicopters provide a patient transfer service for critical patients since the amount of kit and attendees requires bigger helos than the charities can afford.
Don't get me wrong, what they do, they do very well but we do not have a top flight service appropriate to an (allegedly) first-world country. You can blame whoever you like - the govt and the CAA would be first on my list but until everyone is pulling in the same direction and demanding the appropriate service we will continue to provide less than we should and end up having to compromise by combining assets which further degrades the service.
Don't get me wrong, what they do, they do very well but we do not have a top flight service appropriate to an (allegedly) first-world country. You can blame whoever you like - the govt and the CAA would be first on my list but until everyone is pulling in the same direction and demanding the appropriate service we will continue to provide less than we should and end up having to compromise by combining assets which further degrades the service.
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I am not wanting to start an argument (?) but it seems as though CK's answer (supported by crab) is just throw more resources at it and it will be better. Whilst true, this is not much of a revelation. It also ignores the other beneficial ways that you might spend some of that same money, if you could devise an effective HEMS (or police ASU) system leaving a bit of surplus.
The health industry remains unconvinced of the benefit of HEMS anyway (especially in the UK). If there is any spare cash floating around under their control or influence, they will find other ways of spending it. A major initiative to spend lots more money will need some good evidence to justify it. In both the HEMS and police ASU world we have been very lazy about proving our value.
It is also only of limited use to say throw away the current rule book. For the foreseeable future, we have that set of rules (more or less) to operate by.
The current possible/recent upheaval in HEMS is about power politics and asserting train-set ownership rights and has little or nothing to do with effectiveness or efficiency unfortunately.
The peculiar route by which England and Wales acquires its HEMS funding means that the costs of running the helicopter can be funded by means which do not involve an objective review of the value of the service provided. Morally though, we should try and make it as effective and efficient as possible, and be able to demonstrate that, in case anyone ever asks
The health industry remains unconvinced of the benefit of HEMS anyway (especially in the UK). If there is any spare cash floating around under their control or influence, they will find other ways of spending it. A major initiative to spend lots more money will need some good evidence to justify it. In both the HEMS and police ASU world we have been very lazy about proving our value.
It is also only of limited use to say throw away the current rule book. For the foreseeable future, we have that set of rules (more or less) to operate by.
The current possible/recent upheaval in HEMS is about power politics and asserting train-set ownership rights and has little or nothing to do with effectiveness or efficiency unfortunately.
The peculiar route by which England and Wales acquires its HEMS funding means that the costs of running the helicopter can be funded by means which do not involve an objective review of the value of the service provided. Morally though, we should try and make it as effective and efficient as possible, and be able to demonstrate that, in case anyone ever asks
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Neither can the AA helicopters provide a patient transfer service for critical patients since the amount of kit and attendees requires bigger helos than the charities can afford
It's human nature to bring as much equipment as one possibly can, just in case, on the odd occasion even if we'd have landed in a Chinook for a patient transfer it would have been filled with "critical" personnel and equipment!
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I think you'll find they would be instrument trained as commercial pilots, but police ops are visual by nature so they wouldn't operate using an instrument rating. You wouldn't be a journalist by any chance?
Skyhigh So if police pilots aren't instrument trained, then they can't fly in all weathers am i right ?
CK I could go on but I would bore you. As for night Ops well that could be solved overnight if we made all HEMS flights a part of 'Government Operations' and took them away from JAROPS 3. There is nothing special about Police Helicopters, they just have the benefit of the POM. Don't get me going on that one.......
Not ALL Air Ambulances have FLIR and a Nitesun for Ad Hoc landings..
So if police pilots aren't instrument trained
Regardless of which, we have to carry out 1 hour of sim IF training every 3 months. Not a great amount, I must admit, but enough to prepare you incase of inadvertant IMC.
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Timex
Like I said, there is nothing special about Police helicopters - just bolt on a FLIR - Fit the Night Sun - job done.
Police Pilots and IRs - The cops don't like IRs because they cost too much to get and to maintain so they make do without and pretend that inadvertant flight into IMC doesn't happen - despite one EC 135 drivers bad experience in Strathclyde a few years back. Thankfully NVGs may save us from further embarassment.
Sussex
If any of the individuals in the Susses Police/HEMS outfit feel insulted by my exhortations on their behalf then I am truly sorry. My intentions were all about raising an issue that is akin to the Emperor's Clothes and if we all go on saying how wonderful they look then before we know it it will become the fashion. My experience of both clinical staff and Police Officers (first hand I might add) is that they are under-appreciated by the general public and deserve more from us insofar as they should not be asked to do a first-rate job in second-rate circumstances. As with our Military they deserve the right tools for the job.
CKD
Like I said, there is nothing special about Police helicopters - just bolt on a FLIR - Fit the Night Sun - job done.
Police Pilots and IRs - The cops don't like IRs because they cost too much to get and to maintain so they make do without and pretend that inadvertant flight into IMC doesn't happen - despite one EC 135 drivers bad experience in Strathclyde a few years back. Thankfully NVGs may save us from further embarassment.
Sussex
If any of the individuals in the Susses Police/HEMS outfit feel insulted by my exhortations on their behalf then I am truly sorry. My intentions were all about raising an issue that is akin to the Emperor's Clothes and if we all go on saying how wonderful they look then before we know it it will become the fashion. My experience of both clinical staff and Police Officers (first hand I might add) is that they are under-appreciated by the general public and deserve more from us insofar as they should not be asked to do a first-rate job in second-rate circumstances. As with our Military they deserve the right tools for the job.
CKD
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Originally Posted by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew
You wouldn't be a journalist by any chance?
Originally Posted by Sky-High Ulster
Nope
You certainly have a bee in your bonnet, looking at your previous posts. FoI applications, newspaper reports, trying to find out via Rotorheads who operates the helicopters, even though the FoI for that information was refused on security grounds.
Anyone would think you have a (hidden) agenda
