Any Police Helicopters used as Air Ambulances
Minself - I am talking about a patient on a trolley hooked up to ventilators, monitors, drips etc with ICU staff (normally 2 or 3) or ECMO transfers which AA can't do either. And I am talking about doing it day or night, VMC or IMC.
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I am talking about a patient on a trolley...
- but thanks for the info that the FOI was refused on security grounds, i didn't know that.
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So go on, tell us - why do you have such a bee in your bonnet? It's obvious from your postings that you don't have an aviation background but you do have lots of facts and figures to hand. If not a journalist then maybe reasons of politics? Hotter or colder? I'm intrigued....
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C.K and Crab
I am in total agreement with you that the UK government should fund a country-wide fleet of dedicated Police/Ambulance/Fire helicopters.
In the meantime, the services make do with the arrangements in place and the shortcomings inherent in this.
The original thread was "Any police helicopters used as Air Ambulances?" and this had been answered. You can call dual-roleing second rate but I think you will find that the service provided is first rate. It would not work in some locations, e.g. West Yorks but in the places it has been set up it is working a treat.
Crab, Minself is right
.
Your knowledge of Air Ambulance capabilities is obviously limited. I suggest you try to pay a visit to your nearest unit to acquaint yourself with their transfer capabilities. True, most can't yet do night /IFR but if the public support and fundraising allow, I think you will find that many units have this in their long-term plans. (Speak to Yorkshire AA. Although they might be busy winch training!).
It is a shame that studies have shown limited value for HEMS when those of us involved in the work know of circumstances where only a helicopter could have made a difference to the patient's outcome. So no government money will be coming.
I am in total agreement with you that the UK government should fund a country-wide fleet of dedicated Police/Ambulance/Fire helicopters.
In the meantime, the services make do with the arrangements in place and the shortcomings inherent in this.
The original thread was "Any police helicopters used as Air Ambulances?" and this had been answered. You can call dual-roleing second rate but I think you will find that the service provided is first rate. It would not work in some locations, e.g. West Yorks but in the places it has been set up it is working a treat.
Crab, Minself is right
But, the rest of the equipment will be fine as it's either already on the aircraft or we can make room for it, even for the 2 staff or 3 at a push. As for the Night/IFR transfers that will happen and in the mean time your guys and gals can manage that?
Your knowledge of Air Ambulance capabilities is obviously limited. I suggest you try to pay a visit to your nearest unit to acquaint yourself with their transfer capabilities. True, most can't yet do night /IFR but if the public support and fundraising allow, I think you will find that many units have this in their long-term plans. (Speak to Yorkshire AA. Although they might be busy winch training!).
It is a shame that studies have shown limited value for HEMS when those of us involved in the work know of circumstances where only a helicopter could have made a difference to the patient's outcome. So no government money will be coming.
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Dr. Bunsen - i was wondering how much it costs to provide a police helicopter and how much value for money i get as a tax payer !!Now through my own research the cost of buying the helicopter and the costs to run it - so far ( i don't have all the figures ) is shocking - given that the helicopter on average over the last 2yrs flew only 3hrs per day. So on that basis why can't the helicopter be used as an Air Ambulance as well instead of me paying for it to sit on the tarmac doing nothing ?
Skyhigh, Just how much is it costing you - per year?? Just for comparison, our local Police air support last year cost the local rate payers just under 14 pence per household. That's covering 2 counties ~ and you've got 6. Be interested to know.
For that 14p contribution the ratepayers got 911 flying hours in support of the police. The crews attended 2893 incidents, were directly responsible for 212 arrests, assisted in the arrest of 488 others, found 49 missing persons, recovered 93 stolen vehicles and property valued at £1,467,000 - and carried 5 casualties to hospital.
For that 14p contribution the ratepayers got 911 flying hours in support of the police. The crews attended 2893 incidents, were directly responsible for 212 arrests, assisted in the arrest of 488 others, found 49 missing persons, recovered 93 stolen vehicles and property valued at £1,467,000 - and carried 5 casualties to hospital.
Last edited by Fortyodd2; 24th May 2008 at 11:04.
Whoeate and minself - if you are correct then why does the SARF do so many medtransfers and ECMOs in day VFR conditions? Is it that the politics of AA and the NHS don't like an AA going out of area (we did Exeter to Oxford the other day) or is it that you don't have the range with all the kit on board? There must be some reason why the ARRCK phone keeps on ringing
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fortyodd2 i think you're missing the point - i wouldn't mind if they flew 24/7 catching scum - but they aren't 
so rather the helicopter sitting about costing the tax money for doing nothing, use it to help others in need 
so rather the helicopter sitting about costing the tax money for doing nothing, use it to help others in need
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That's a good question possibly it's a combination of both of those factors or possibly the local AA unit were already on a task, bad weather or unserviceability?
I don't know the actual circumstances of that transfer but I'd had thought you'd have been pleased to be used for the good and benefit of the public, whilst you can
I don't know the actual circumstances of that transfer but I'd had thought you'd have been pleased to be used for the good and benefit of the public, whilst you can
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Crab
Well it does leave a valuable Air Ambulance on standby with its highly trained and useful paramedics available. Whilst the over-funded and under-utilised SAR machine can do the routine stuff. There's always a second one whilst the first one's away. Nice to have the money to do that.
Well it does leave a valuable Air Ambulance on standby with its highly trained and useful paramedics available. Whilst the over-funded and under-utilised SAR machine can do the routine stuff. There's always a second one whilst the first one's away. Nice to have the money to do that.
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Skyhigh,
3 hours per day is a pretty high utilisation rate for a helicopter in the UK. Over 1,000 hours per year is a lot more than many helicopters fly.
As an approximate guide, it takes almost as much time on the ground in pre-flight and post-flight activities by the crew, as it does to fly.
Think for a moment about the work that police helicopters do. Most of the valuable stuff is not planned but reacting to situations as they occur. The criminals, missing persons, lunatic drivers and others do not have to book the time they do their burglary, murder, suicide attempt, DIC or whatever, so that it can be scheduled into a pre-planned programme. (That would be nice - perhaps we can suggest to the politicians that they make a law to require this!). If such a reactive service flew much more than 3 or so hours per day, then there would be far too many occasions when 2 significant incidents occurred at the same time which would markedly affect the ability of one helicopter to respond adequately.
There are some police helicopters in the UK that fly closer to 1 hour per day. The most that any UK police helicopter flies in a year is about 1,500 hours per year. It would be very difficult to organise operations to fly more than that with one aircraft.
3 hours per day is a pretty high utilisation rate for a helicopter in the UK. Over 1,000 hours per year is a lot more than many helicopters fly.
As an approximate guide, it takes almost as much time on the ground in pre-flight and post-flight activities by the crew, as it does to fly.
Think for a moment about the work that police helicopters do. Most of the valuable stuff is not planned but reacting to situations as they occur. The criminals, missing persons, lunatic drivers and others do not have to book the time they do their burglary, murder, suicide attempt, DIC or whatever, so that it can be scheduled into a pre-planned programme. (That would be nice - perhaps we can suggest to the politicians that they make a law to require this!). If such a reactive service flew much more than 3 or so hours per day, then there would be far too many occasions when 2 significant incidents occurred at the same time which would markedly affect the ability of one helicopter to respond adequately.
There are some police helicopters in the UK that fly closer to 1 hour per day. The most that any UK police helicopter flies in a year is about 1,500 hours per year. It would be very difficult to organise operations to fly more than that with one aircraft.
Skyhigh ~ that’s a fair point but that would mean the Police being out of pocket as their flying hours budget for the year would be split between the 2 roles. It’s the police budget that dictates the flying hours available ~ want more? Pay more. 3 hours a day = 1100 per year, (ish). Yes, having an aircraft available in the air 24/7 catching crims would be great but can your police force afford it? Ours can’t and, unless they keep making the best possible, most efficient use of the hours they are given for the benefit of the police then the police will not pay for it.
I appreciate that in Northern Ireland you are not blessed with the availability of the charity funded Air Ambulances that we in Mainland UK have – there are 5 around here – but the police aircraft still carries a stretcher, defib and first aid kit because the air ambos do not work at night. AFAIK, the PSNI Aircraft does the same ~ how many casevacs has the PSNI aircraft done?
During the “troubles” the people of Northern Ireland and, in particular, South Armagh, had a 24/7 air ambulance service better than anything on the mainland. Are you perhaps suggesting that the police aircraft carries on from where the recently departed RAF and Army Air Corps left off? ~ Providing a free service to the NHS and public but at a cost to the police.
Perhaps you would be better off asking the local NHS why they have not approached the PSNI and offered to “Buy” some extra flying hours for the purpose of Air Ambulance work or provided any paramedics as crew ~ more likely that they are pleased to get what they get at the moment for free.
For the record I think that it’s a disgrace that the UK does not have a Government funded Air Ambulance network however, looking at the mess the current lot are making of everything else, the current system is probably as good as it’s going to get for now.
I appreciate that in Northern Ireland you are not blessed with the availability of the charity funded Air Ambulances that we in Mainland UK have – there are 5 around here – but the police aircraft still carries a stretcher, defib and first aid kit because the air ambos do not work at night. AFAIK, the PSNI Aircraft does the same ~ how many casevacs has the PSNI aircraft done?
During the “troubles” the people of Northern Ireland and, in particular, South Armagh, had a 24/7 air ambulance service better than anything on the mainland. Are you perhaps suggesting that the police aircraft carries on from where the recently departed RAF and Army Air Corps left off? ~ Providing a free service to the NHS and public but at a cost to the police.
Perhaps you would be better off asking the local NHS why they have not approached the PSNI and offered to “Buy” some extra flying hours for the purpose of Air Ambulance work or provided any paramedics as crew ~ more likely that they are pleased to get what they get at the moment for free.
For the record I think that it’s a disgrace that the UK does not have a Government funded Air Ambulance network however, looking at the mess the current lot are making of everything else, the current system is probably as good as it’s going to get for now.
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I'm sorry for the ammount of money its costing the taxpayers 3hrs isn't good enough.
I could agree more
For the record I think that it’s a disgrace that the UK does not have a Government funded Air Ambulance network however
I could agree more
There are no limits
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I am truly fascinated by the concept of getting value for money from the public sector. As a UK taxpayer for 33 years, I am yet to see this.
Don't worry, as an ex-patriate, the incompetents that you lot put into power still grab a shed-load of cash from me and what do I get for it?
If you are getting 3 hours a day out of your police heli, you are doing well. Remember that this is averaged out over 12 months.
If you want more out of your heli, you have to pay more.
Hamster wheel vacated - NEXT !!
Don't worry, as an ex-patriate, the incompetents that you lot put into power still grab a shed-load of cash from me and what do I get for it?
If you are getting 3 hours a day out of your police heli, you are doing well. Remember that this is averaged out over 12 months.
If you want more out of your heli, you have to pay more.
Hamster wheel vacated - NEXT !!
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No we're paying far to much as it is - thats the whole point someone is creaming £££ and i think thats why some questions have gone unanswered !!
But hey i get knock down but i get up again
someone is creaming £££ and i think thats why some questions have gone unanswered !!But hey i get knock down but i get up again
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Skyhigh,
I note your concern but beware of making assumptions. I used to fly a police helicopter in an area without air ambulance cover; we used to fulfil both roles. From my own experience, what is really needed is dedicated aircraft for each role. Would we expect a military fighter to fly as a bomber, or a transport aircraft, or vice versa? I would hope not; each cannot fulfil the other roles effectively.
A police helicopter is not like an empty "white van" inside, nor is an air ambulance. Each role requires specialised, fixed equipment. To convert from one role to another may need an engineer using special tools.
All of the role equipment is included in the all-up weight of the aircraft; the maximum weight of the aircraft cannot be exceeded. Performance limitations due to takeoff / landing altitude and temperature may mean the maximum weight cannot be flown, so removal of this equipment may be essential.
Physical space limitations of the cabin can make it very difficult to fit a stretcher. One type of police aircraft that I flew cannot accommodate a stretcher unless the observer's seat is completely removed and both it and the occupant are left behind. Not good if the next job is an urgent police job with the observer left high in the hills, waiting for the aircraft to return; but at least that would increase the hours flown - but unfortunately the extra would be wasted hours.
If role equipment such as the Nightsun searchlight and the camera needs to be removed to save weight, it takes a finite time. If an aircraft flies in one role, it may be unable to go to a different job role without a retrun to base for an engineer to remove one set of equipment and fit another.
By trying to make one aircraft fulfill both roles, it may become only partially effective in either or both; certainly the response times may be increased to an unacceptable level.
I note your concern but beware of making assumptions. I used to fly a police helicopter in an area without air ambulance cover; we used to fulfil both roles. From my own experience, what is really needed is dedicated aircraft for each role. Would we expect a military fighter to fly as a bomber, or a transport aircraft, or vice versa? I would hope not; each cannot fulfil the other roles effectively.
A police helicopter is not like an empty "white van" inside, nor is an air ambulance. Each role requires specialised, fixed equipment. To convert from one role to another may need an engineer using special tools.
All of the role equipment is included in the all-up weight of the aircraft; the maximum weight of the aircraft cannot be exceeded. Performance limitations due to takeoff / landing altitude and temperature may mean the maximum weight cannot be flown, so removal of this equipment may be essential.
Physical space limitations of the cabin can make it very difficult to fit a stretcher. One type of police aircraft that I flew cannot accommodate a stretcher unless the observer's seat is completely removed and both it and the occupant are left behind. Not good if the next job is an urgent police job with the observer left high in the hills, waiting for the aircraft to return; but at least that would increase the hours flown - but unfortunately the extra would be wasted hours.
If role equipment such as the Nightsun searchlight and the camera needs to be removed to save weight, it takes a finite time. If an aircraft flies in one role, it may be unable to go to a different job role without a retrun to base for an engineer to remove one set of equipment and fit another.
By trying to make one aircraft fulfill both roles, it may become only partially effective in either or both; certainly the response times may be increased to an unacceptable level.
Tightgit
Police Pilots and IRs - The cops don't like IRs because they cost too much to get and to maintain so they make do without and pretend that inadvertant flight into IMC doesn't happen - despite one EC 135 drivers bad experience in Strathclyde a few years back.
skyhigh ulster, when you've finished sorting out the police helicopter you can then get onto sorting out the fire brigade, they keep loads and loads of big red fire engines sat in the fire station when they're not fighting fires. that can't be good utilisaton for an expensive machine like a fire engine....
Sky-High. I am sorry but you are just plain wrong on this one, and it is perhaps that you just do not understand the nature of the beast. In the first instance an average of 3 hours per day per machine is very high and is well above the usual rate of utilisation for such aircraft. Military machines usualy fly less than 300 hrs!
Neither do you understand the method of operation.
The secret of success, - of catching the bad guys, is being able to have that machine overhead the problem within 15 minutes of the incident starting. That requires constant vigilence of all radio traffic and the ability to get airborne within a couple of minutes of receiving a call.
Once that vital 15 minutes has passed the likelehood of the aircraft being of any use drops off remarkably quickly, the culprits have gone.
Now if as you want, that machine is engaged in other activities during its downtime it will never be in the right place to answer the call and will never be able to be really effective.
In the early days we carried little kit other than a searchlight, but as experience was gained we rapidly built up a formidable array of very effective aids to catching the criminal. Today UK Police helicopters carry kit that would be the envy of many military units. They are VERY effective crime fighters and VERY effective at catching the real bad boys. Your proposals far from making them more effective would for the most part make them totaly ineffective. Quite simply we cannot carry effective Police role equipment and the very high standard of life saving equipment that the modern amulance aircraft carries. The dual role machine will always be a compromise.
Imagine for a moment that you have been critically injured in an accident your life is ebbing away. Then the helicopter that comes to save you cannot carry the proper equipment to save your life because it is also carrying surveilance camera's infrared kit, moving map, night sun etc etc. Pity but thats it!
Or you have just been robbed, the assailants have stolen your car, your valuables and also your baby asleep on the back seat. Tough! The Police helicopter that would have got them within a few minutes is away on the other side of the county picking up someone who has fallen from a horse!
The machines themselves are just too technical to be used for other duties. However significant savings can be made from combining the amin functions of Police, Ambulance and Fire machines. The office equipment, fuel and maintenance contracts could well be shared but not now the machines. Remember SkyHigh you are overlooking one vital aspect. Its not the time the machine is in the air that counts. ITS WHAT IT DELIVERS WHEN ITS OPERATING THAT COUNTS. Why do you think that UK Police air supprt has been so effective for the past 20 years if we have it so wrong?
In short SKY High. Stick to passing judgement on something that you know something
about! By all means PM me and I will send you the background material that you lack.
Tigerfish
Neither do you understand the method of operation.
The secret of success, - of catching the bad guys, is being able to have that machine overhead the problem within 15 minutes of the incident starting. That requires constant vigilence of all radio traffic and the ability to get airborne within a couple of minutes of receiving a call.
Once that vital 15 minutes has passed the likelehood of the aircraft being of any use drops off remarkably quickly, the culprits have gone.
Now if as you want, that machine is engaged in other activities during its downtime it will never be in the right place to answer the call and will never be able to be really effective.
In the early days we carried little kit other than a searchlight, but as experience was gained we rapidly built up a formidable array of very effective aids to catching the criminal. Today UK Police helicopters carry kit that would be the envy of many military units. They are VERY effective crime fighters and VERY effective at catching the real bad boys. Your proposals far from making them more effective would for the most part make them totaly ineffective. Quite simply we cannot carry effective Police role equipment and the very high standard of life saving equipment that the modern amulance aircraft carries. The dual role machine will always be a compromise.
Imagine for a moment that you have been critically injured in an accident your life is ebbing away. Then the helicopter that comes to save you cannot carry the proper equipment to save your life because it is also carrying surveilance camera's infrared kit, moving map, night sun etc etc. Pity but thats it!
Or you have just been robbed, the assailants have stolen your car, your valuables and also your baby asleep on the back seat. Tough! The Police helicopter that would have got them within a few minutes is away on the other side of the county picking up someone who has fallen from a horse!
The machines themselves are just too technical to be used for other duties. However significant savings can be made from combining the amin functions of Police, Ambulance and Fire machines. The office equipment, fuel and maintenance contracts could well be shared but not now the machines. Remember SkyHigh you are overlooking one vital aspect. Its not the time the machine is in the air that counts. ITS WHAT IT DELIVERS WHEN ITS OPERATING THAT COUNTS. Why do you think that UK Police air supprt has been so effective for the past 20 years if we have it so wrong?
In short SKY High. Stick to passing judgement on something that you know something
about! By all means PM me and I will send you the background material that you lack.Tigerfish