Any Police Helicopters used as Air Ambulances
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From your last answer, if you don't want to hear relevant facts or information on the subject, I take it this is actually a rant based on misplaced jealousy?
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Skyhigh, either you're not explaining your viewpoint and agenda very well or you've missed some fundamental accounting concepts of fixed and marginal costs. Sure you're not a journalist? Asking about bird strikes? And who provides pilots to PSNI?
A police/air ambo pilot is not working for 3 hours a day just because the helicopter flies for 3 hours a day - they are working for far more hours than that. The marginal cost of each extra flying hour would be the flying cost of the helicopter; salaries and overheads being fixed. Being public sector, the concept of absorption costing is irrelevant.
And don't forget that the aircraft can often be grounded for unserviceability and weather - this means that, in order to achieve 3 hours a day average, some days the flying is a lot more.
In order for the aircraft to fly more, it will cost the tax payer more - it really is as simple as that. It's not clear from your posts what you are expecting? Lower taxes or higher taxes?
Cheers
Whirls
A police/air ambo pilot is not working for 3 hours a day just because the helicopter flies for 3 hours a day - they are working for far more hours than that. The marginal cost of each extra flying hour would be the flying cost of the helicopter; salaries and overheads being fixed. Being public sector, the concept of absorption costing is irrelevant.
And don't forget that the aircraft can often be grounded for unserviceability and weather - this means that, in order to achieve 3 hours a day average, some days the flying is a lot more.
In order for the aircraft to fly more, it will cost the tax payer more - it really is as simple as that. It's not clear from your posts what you are expecting? Lower taxes or higher taxes?
Cheers
Whirls
Chief Bottle Washer
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.
*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".
*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".
Minself and whoate - nice try but the fish ain't biting today
Unlike the AA, we don't have to try and justify our existence/funding by launching to every shout.
When AA get full night/IFR/NVG capability and a big enough heli to do ICU patient transfer, they will be too expensive for the charities to afford and will then fold or go back to day VMC.
BTW, our paramedics are trained to the same standard as your paramedics (does the term clinical governance mean anything to you?)
Oh, and under SARH, there won't be a second SAR aircraft so who will do the medtransfers?
Have you worked out what an ECMO is yet?
Unlike the AA, we don't have to try and justify our existence/funding by launching to every shout.
When AA get full night/IFR/NVG capability and a big enough heli to do ICU patient transfer, they will be too expensive for the charities to afford and will then fold or go back to day VMC.
BTW, our paramedics are trained to the same standard as your paramedics (does the term clinical governance mean anything to you?)
Oh, and under SARH, there won't be a second SAR aircraft so who will do the medtransfers?
Have you worked out what an ECMO is yet?
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Thats a shame....
Crab, thats a cheap shot. Those that understand the dispatch criteria of AA's understand that it's only when a certain criteria have been met and the tasks validity has been agreed by everyone that an AA launches. A very similar way to how you're dispatched, but quicker
The UK AA's will eventually do all that you think it won't do! I believe we may have 4 years to get there? The service isn't perfect but then few are, I have lost count the number of times I have listened to the woes of SAR SeaKing crews about unserviceabilites due to the lack of funding, you may consider promoting your excellent work rather deriding the work of others because as good as PPRUNE is I doubt Govt. will pay much attention to what's said on here.... however, if there is anyone reading this from Govt can we have a winch pleeeease?
...oh and yes to the ECMO question, thank you Google.
Unlike the AA, we don't have to try and justify our existence/funding by launching to every shout.
The UK AA's will eventually do all that you think it won't do! I believe we may have 4 years to get there? The service isn't perfect but then few are, I have lost count the number of times I have listened to the woes of SAR SeaKing crews about unserviceabilites due to the lack of funding, you may consider promoting your excellent work rather deriding the work of others because as good as PPRUNE is I doubt Govt. will pay much attention to what's said on here.... however, if there is anyone reading this from Govt can we have a winch pleeeease?
...oh and yes to the ECMO question, thank you Google.
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wish i could get paid for just working 3hrs a day ( Ł300,000 per year
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Whoateallthepies
Don't start Crab off again! He actually operates just down the road from his local Air Ambulance, they share a re-fuelling facility, liase and I'm sure he's poked his head inside one to see what there is.
Your knowledge of Air Ambulance capabilities is obviously limited. I suggest you try to pay a visit to your nearest unit to acquaint yourself with their transfer capabilities.
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nodrama
I know that Crab is very knowledgeable about all of this, I just enjoy a bit of "Devils Advocate" with him and I'm afraid, despite what he said, I have got him to bite on this one!
Minself. right again. It's only a shame that some in the SAR world don't see the writing on the wall. No second SAR aircraft will just mean more transfers for properly equipped and manned Air Ambulances. The charities will support this work in the long run.
Hang on, we've gone away from the thread a bit here!
I know that Crab is very knowledgeable about all of this, I just enjoy a bit of "Devils Advocate" with him and I'm afraid, despite what he said, I have got him to bite on this one!
Minself. right again. It's only a shame that some in the SAR world don't see the writing on the wall. No second SAR aircraft will just mean more transfers for properly equipped and manned Air Ambulances. The charities will support this work in the long run.
Hang on, we've gone away from the thread a bit here!
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Skyhigh
Let's get back to basics. You don't really know much about aviation or helicopters in particular, so lets imagine we talk about fire engines and ambulances with similar capabilities.
The emergency vehicle can carry 3 people, go for 1hr 30 mins between refuelling, has only 4 petrol stations in the whole area covering 1.5 million people, 1 of which is open at night. Each can do a very small amount of which the other can (firemen: first aid, ambulance crew: fire extinguisher) but don't have the capacity to carry any more kit.
We have two options: base each vehicle centrally to react to the appropriate call, or make each roam about until something happens.
Based centrally and reacting means that they can send the appropriate vehicle to deal with a definite call, they can get there and back without refuelling en-route, and chances are they will have on average (you'll like that statistical reference) a good success rate.
Roaming the countryside, the appropriate vehicle is more likely to be further away, in need of a refuel (especially at night) or in for a service (this goes by hours operated, not time-scale). The Fire engine can turn up for the car accident when the ambulance is too far away, but they can't deal with 2 spinal injuries or have space to carry the patients to the hospital; the house fire really doesn't need a fire extinguisher......
Let's have a fireman and paramedic on each vehicle, and have both sets of equipment carried, I hear you cry. Well, the vehicle can't carry enough, or if it does then there is only enough fuel space left to drive from home to the petrol station. Each crew member is also of much less use to the other under each scenario. Let's dual qualify each crew member? This may be possible, but there will be a huge dilution of skills and experience. Certainly, the unit is no longer of any practical use and is now twice as expensive, far more ineffective and infinitely more difficult to crew with appropriately qualified staff. The local bean-counters look at the high cost and low results and decide to save all the budget for the old fashioned, but now more efficient methods which we initially tried to improve upon.
Getting back to the Police situation, we can patrol all day, but see above.
Your 3 hours might be for 6 half hour tasks spread throughout the day. Factoring in bad weather, when even if qualified to fly the pilots/crew could not see the ground to help, and servicing, you might have 4-5 multiple sorties per day. Alternatively we could probably patrol for 10 hours a day but still only attempt to attend the same suitable incidents whilst probably not having enough fuel to assist or taking twice as long to attend each. Success rates half, and running costs double (as do servicing costs, time unavailable because of them and the frequency of buying a new helicopter because the old one is knackered too early). Would you buy a 250000 mile taxi or a 50000 mile private car of the same age? Guess which costs more to maintain. Your "poor value for money" helicopter has now cost twice as much to operate and has achieved half as many successes.
I am sorry you are fixated on blaming one service for not doing the work of another, but why blame a fire-crew for not being able to save the lives of a heart attack victim? Or a paramedic for letting a house full of kids burn down when he had a perfectly good fire extinguisher in his ambulance?
Really, I think your concern and somewhat tenacious energy would be better served by campaigning and researching the provision of an air ambulance service and better coastguard helicopter provision in N.I. because one machine will not do both jobs (winching/rescue and emergency medical aid/ambulance). The police have saved several lives as witnessed in local papers if you Google it, but there is little capacity in affordable sized helicopters for multiple roles per cab. Everything in the heli world is a finely balanced compromise.
I hope that this may help you, and I really wish that you could assist in the real problem - provision of a realistic air ambulance for the province (not a rescue/winching pipe-dream). These forums have many knowledgeable people who are more than willing to help if approached in a reasonable manner.
Lastly, I suggest you check the CAA website and download and study the Police Air Operations Manual (CAP612) http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...=detail&id=210
I had a quick look and it may show you the tight restrictions they operate under - more restrictive than commercial operations in many ways.
Let's get back to basics. You don't really know much about aviation or helicopters in particular, so lets imagine we talk about fire engines and ambulances with similar capabilities.
The emergency vehicle can carry 3 people, go for 1hr 30 mins between refuelling, has only 4 petrol stations in the whole area covering 1.5 million people, 1 of which is open at night. Each can do a very small amount of which the other can (firemen: first aid, ambulance crew: fire extinguisher) but don't have the capacity to carry any more kit.
We have two options: base each vehicle centrally to react to the appropriate call, or make each roam about until something happens.
Based centrally and reacting means that they can send the appropriate vehicle to deal with a definite call, they can get there and back without refuelling en-route, and chances are they will have on average (you'll like that statistical reference) a good success rate.
Roaming the countryside, the appropriate vehicle is more likely to be further away, in need of a refuel (especially at night) or in for a service (this goes by hours operated, not time-scale). The Fire engine can turn up for the car accident when the ambulance is too far away, but they can't deal with 2 spinal injuries or have space to carry the patients to the hospital; the house fire really doesn't need a fire extinguisher......
Let's have a fireman and paramedic on each vehicle, and have both sets of equipment carried, I hear you cry. Well, the vehicle can't carry enough, or if it does then there is only enough fuel space left to drive from home to the petrol station. Each crew member is also of much less use to the other under each scenario. Let's dual qualify each crew member? This may be possible, but there will be a huge dilution of skills and experience. Certainly, the unit is no longer of any practical use and is now twice as expensive, far more ineffective and infinitely more difficult to crew with appropriately qualified staff. The local bean-counters look at the high cost and low results and decide to save all the budget for the old fashioned, but now more efficient methods which we initially tried to improve upon.
Getting back to the Police situation, we can patrol all day, but see above.
Your 3 hours might be for 6 half hour tasks spread throughout the day. Factoring in bad weather, when even if qualified to fly the pilots/crew could not see the ground to help, and servicing, you might have 4-5 multiple sorties per day. Alternatively we could probably patrol for 10 hours a day but still only attempt to attend the same suitable incidents whilst probably not having enough fuel to assist or taking twice as long to attend each. Success rates half, and running costs double (as do servicing costs, time unavailable because of them and the frequency of buying a new helicopter because the old one is knackered too early). Would you buy a 250000 mile taxi or a 50000 mile private car of the same age? Guess which costs more to maintain. Your "poor value for money" helicopter has now cost twice as much to operate and has achieved half as many successes.
I am sorry you are fixated on blaming one service for not doing the work of another, but why blame a fire-crew for not being able to save the lives of a heart attack victim? Or a paramedic for letting a house full of kids burn down when he had a perfectly good fire extinguisher in his ambulance?
Really, I think your concern and somewhat tenacious energy would be better served by campaigning and researching the provision of an air ambulance service and better coastguard helicopter provision in N.I. because one machine will not do both jobs (winching/rescue and emergency medical aid/ambulance). The police have saved several lives as witnessed in local papers if you Google it, but there is little capacity in affordable sized helicopters for multiple roles per cab. Everything in the heli world is a finely balanced compromise.
I hope that this may help you, and I really wish that you could assist in the real problem - provision of a realistic air ambulance for the province (not a rescue/winching pipe-dream). These forums have many knowledgeable people who are more than willing to help if approached in a reasonable manner.
Lastly, I suggest you check the CAA website and download and study the Police Air Operations Manual (CAP612) http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...=detail&id=210
I had a quick look and it may show you the tight restrictions they operate under - more restrictive than commercial operations in many ways.
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Police Pilots and IRs - The cops don't like IRs because they cost too much to get and to maintain so they make do without and pretend that inadvertant flight into IMC doesn't happen - despite one EC 135 drivers bad experience in Strathclyde a few years back.
...and the pilot of that aircraft had an instrument rating
Police Pilots and IRs - The cops don't like IRs because they cost too much to get and to maintain so they make do without and pretend that inadvertant flight into IMC doesn't happen - despite one EC 135 drivers bad experience in Strathclyde a few years back.
...and the pilot of that aircraft had an instrument rating
If we dual roled, we'd get nothing done properly - with the police kit aboard, there'd be no room/weight for HEMS equipment AND a patient, unless the Police were happy with less than 60 mins endurance for their tasks . . . normally not enough.
Dual roling is effectively (I'd suggest) an interim or compromise solution in areas where they can't afford/justify both separately. If your (non-24 hour) Police operation flies 500-600 hours p.a., you might consider dual roling to improve resourse use - if you're working in the 900hrs+ area, you'd be run ragged in no time.
Skyhigh - the role & uses of a police helicopter have been explained very effectively by others (40 odd #47 / Helinut #52 / tigerfish #59 / Dr Bunsen) if you can't actually accept the answers from the "pp"s on this network, and others who obviously have a decent grasp of reality, don't ask the question. If you really want to waste money, suggest the helicopter swans around in the air for 6hrs per day (probably in the wrong place for any reactive job) & watch your taxes rise even more.
These machines are used most effectively as rapid, reactive, response, or taking 12 mins to search a square mile of fields for the missing 82 yr old altzheimers patient, to direct a single officer to investigate possible "finds" (or even land themselves), rather than 400 man hours for ground officers to do the same. If you want your Police patrolling the streets nabbing hoodies (as the government does), don't get them to waste their time & your money doing jobs more suited to airborne technology & expertise.
If you're trying to wind professionals up, you've done a good job!
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First off can i say i'm not trying to wind anyone up and i'm sorry if it came across that way.
All i can is - i atill think a police helicopter that only flies 3hrs on average surely there is room to combine it as an Air Ambulance - even if only saves one life !!
I guess that applies to replies as well then
All i can is - i atill think a police helicopter that only flies 3hrs on average surely there is room to combine it as an Air Ambulance - even if only saves one life !!
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.
I guess that applies to replies as well then
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Skyhigh,
You asked for answers and got truthful, informed answers from folk actually in the job. Unfortunately it appears that you don't want to listen, only to sound off.
If I'm a sciolist in your opinion, so be it; but at least I have professional in role experience as a previous chief pilot of a Police Air Support Unit which was then additionally tasked with the CASEVAC role.
I'll say it again - what you apparently imagine to be a very simple thing, is far from the reality and practicality of the situation. "My" unit now has been supplemented by a specialist air ambulance. The AA is kept extremely busy. If the police helicopter were still tasked with the additional role, it would have little time to carry out any police duties. My best advice would be to listen out and let the professionals do their job, whilst you stick to yours.
That's my final say in this thread because I suspect it's unrealistic to expect you to change your view.
You asked for answers and got truthful, informed answers from folk actually in the job. Unfortunately it appears that you don't want to listen, only to sound off.
If I'm a sciolist in your opinion, so be it; but at least I have professional in role experience as a previous chief pilot of a Police Air Support Unit which was then additionally tasked with the CASEVAC role.
I'll say it again - what you apparently imagine to be a very simple thing, is far from the reality and practicality of the situation. "My" unit now has been supplemented by a specialist air ambulance. The AA is kept extremely busy. If the police helicopter were still tasked with the additional role, it would have little time to carry out any police duties. My best advice would be to listen out and let the professionals do their job, whilst you stick to yours.
That's my final say in this thread because I suspect it's unrealistic to expect you to change your view.
Last edited by ShyTorque; 26th May 2008 at 12:33. Reason: spelling error.
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Skyhigh,
I guess there's no point in trying to help or offer opinions and advice if you won't read it. I just hope you don't have to call the fire brigade tonight - just think how few hours a day each engine drives and think of how many there are!
Now surely they could operate as buses or something to utilise the other 22-odd hours of the day more cost effectively....
Thanks to the other helpful posters but I think we've hit a brick wall on this one. Some people just don't want to know.I'm off.
I guess there's no point in trying to help or offer opinions and advice if you won't read it. I just hope you don't have to call the fire brigade tonight - just think how few hours a day each engine drives and think of how many there are!
Now surely they could operate as buses or something to utilise the other 22-odd hours of the day more cost effectively....
Thanks to the other helpful posters but I think we've hit a brick wall on this one. Some people just don't want to know.
I'm off.
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Its ok i know how good a job the Fire Brigade do - i use to be a firefighter lol
Ok maybe i don't fully get or don't understand about a Helicopter - so i'll ask you all to explain !!
Say the pilot starts at 7am give me a brief run down of his/her day
Ie - checks - refueling that sot of thing
Ok maybe i don't fully get or don't understand about a Helicopter - so i'll ask you all to explain !!
Say the pilot starts at 7am give me a brief run down of his/her day
Ie - checks - refueling that sot of thing
From a medical point of view, interhospital transfers are totally different from primary work - as different as an ITU from an A and E department. Critically ill ITU patients need sophisticated ventilators (yes a transport ventilator will cope perhaps for a short time but may further damage the lungs) plus multiple infusion pumps (yes we might keep the patient alive with fewer for an hour or so with fingers crossed) and loads of other gear. It needs proper power and gases plus a dedicated fit plus size - S76 upwards.
This needs 2-3 ships for England and Wales, ideally IFR but that needs IFR approaches plus proper pads for all acute hospitals. The current debacle with GPS approaches makes the former unlikely whilst 25 years after it was made mandatory to plan helipads for new hospital builds less than 10% of new builds have pads.
Primary is still unproven despite the Sheffield review and attempts at audit. In rural areas helicopters MAY offer advantages in terms of time to hospital but in most other areas the benefits may relate to delivery of medical teams, which is why London's HEMS, which carries a doctor, albeit highly protocolised, has the edge over many others. Poland played with single engine machines to simply deliver a doctor and despite much ridicule their data is as good as ours!
We desperately need better research into primary HEMS, but I doubt night or IFR operations will ever be viable which means we doctors need to continue to develop alternatives for night and poor vis periods. The resulting development of prehospital practitioners unfortunately demonstrates a much cheaper alternative for most urban and semirural communities.
However, the cost issue is really just another political smokescreen. The cost of interhospital has been proven to save money. The cost of primary represents less than 1% of acute services and even with a life saved:missions flown ratio of 1% is a no brainer.
Given an option, we doctors would like to see 2-3 secondary and 13 primary aircraft for England and Wales, not limited to individual NHS regions, staffed with doctors and funded from central taxation.
Oh well, back to reality - well done all you fund raisers, and yes, if we cant have better a joint role with police gets my vote. Just be aware of the limitations and ensure the politicians are brought to task as often as possible.
This needs 2-3 ships for England and Wales, ideally IFR but that needs IFR approaches plus proper pads for all acute hospitals. The current debacle with GPS approaches makes the former unlikely whilst 25 years after it was made mandatory to plan helipads for new hospital builds less than 10% of new builds have pads.
Primary is still unproven despite the Sheffield review and attempts at audit. In rural areas helicopters MAY offer advantages in terms of time to hospital but in most other areas the benefits may relate to delivery of medical teams, which is why London's HEMS, which carries a doctor, albeit highly protocolised, has the edge over many others. Poland played with single engine machines to simply deliver a doctor and despite much ridicule their data is as good as ours!
We desperately need better research into primary HEMS, but I doubt night or IFR operations will ever be viable which means we doctors need to continue to develop alternatives for night and poor vis periods. The resulting development of prehospital practitioners unfortunately demonstrates a much cheaper alternative for most urban and semirural communities.
However, the cost issue is really just another political smokescreen. The cost of interhospital has been proven to save money. The cost of primary represents less than 1% of acute services and even with a life saved:missions flown ratio of 1% is a no brainer.
Given an option, we doctors would like to see 2-3 secondary and 13 primary aircraft for England and Wales, not limited to individual NHS regions, staffed with doctors and funded from central taxation.
Oh well, back to reality - well done all you fund raisers, and yes, if we cant have better a joint role with police gets my vote. Just be aware of the limitations and ensure the politicians are brought to task as often as possible.
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After all this you still don't get it........
The emergency services are reactive. When we patrolled London in a Bell 47 back in the 80s we were forever finding that we were in the wrong part of town but we did manage to improve the reaction time a little and every now and then we were in exactly the right spot (which was pretty important in a B47). In Glasgow we found that we had an hourly budget to stay within and couldn't waste any time patrolling so it's not surprising that with such a vast area to cover we were sometimes a bit slow getting on top. Being the only chopper in Scotland (police chopper that is) didn't help.
Some days might be spent drinking coffee and listening to the radio but had we been suckered into a AA flight then, good as that might be for our PR profile, it meant that we could not be around when the boys on the ground cried for help which is what we were hired to do.
It may not be well known but when the contract first AA in the country was about to be signed the D & C Constabulary came along and offered the use of
a second West Country Police Helicopter if we pulled out of the AA idea.
I often wonder what would have happened if that offer had been accepted for upon that model the other AA projects were born.
G
Some days might be spent drinking coffee and listening to the radio but had we been suckered into a AA flight then, good as that might be for our PR profile, it meant that we could not be around when the boys on the ground cried for help which is what we were hired to do.
It may not be well known but when the contract first AA in the country was about to be signed the D & C Constabulary came along and offered the use of
a second West Country Police Helicopter if we pulled out of the AA idea.
I often wonder what would have happened if that offer had been accepted for upon that model the other AA projects were born.
G
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Skyhigh, you don't need to know about helicopters but you do need to have a certain amount of common sense. Very experienced pilots have told you that the equipment and personnel required for the two roles are quite different. Is that a difficult concept?
By saying that a police helicopter can be utilised as an air ambulance when not "in flight" as a police helicopter assumes an even time distribution of call-outs - this doesn't happen in reality.
Try watching Helicops or Chopper Coppers along with 999 Frontline (all featuring some of our "stars" here!!) and you might get some idea!!!
Cheers
Whirls
By saying that a police helicopter can be utilised as an air ambulance when not "in flight" as a police helicopter assumes an even time distribution of call-outs - this doesn't happen in reality.
Try watching Helicops or Chopper Coppers along with 999 Frontline (all featuring some of our "stars" here!!) and you might get some idea!!!
Cheers
Whirls
Whoate - only a little nibble though
We do all know the writing is on the wall - that is what is so depressing. No matter how well the contract is written, the contractor will only just fulfill that contract and no more.
As for the pipe dream about AA doing the patient transfers that we do - you may aspire to it but there is never going to be the money to fund it - unless central govt dig deep and they are broke thanks to Gordon and Alastair.
I know that both our local AAs are red - does that make me an expert?
Homonculus - thanks for the medical input - I know from the severity of the cases that we transport that the last thing the doctors want to do is start decanting the patient from trolley to stretcher, back to trolley the other end. It is difficult enough just lifting the whole shebang into a Sea King without upsetting the patient's often minimal chance of survival - cramming them into the back of a 135 or similar would be worse I am sure.
Unfortunately many hospitals seem happy to build on HLS areas suitable for large helos and many either have LS only suitable for small helos or have to use alternate sites such as playing fields which is less than ideal (wet, muddy fields and trolley wheels don't mix well)
We do all know the writing is on the wall - that is what is so depressing. No matter how well the contract is written, the contractor will only just fulfill that contract and no more.
As for the pipe dream about AA doing the patient transfers that we do - you may aspire to it but there is never going to be the money to fund it - unless central govt dig deep and they are broke thanks to Gordon and Alastair.
I know that both our local AAs are red - does that make me an expert?
Homonculus - thanks for the medical input - I know from the severity of the cases that we transport that the last thing the doctors want to do is start decanting the patient from trolley to stretcher, back to trolley the other end. It is difficult enough just lifting the whole shebang into a Sea King without upsetting the patient's often minimal chance of survival - cramming them into the back of a 135 or similar would be worse I am sure.
Unfortunately many hospitals seem happy to build on HLS areas suitable for large helos and many either have LS only suitable for small helos or have to use alternate sites such as playing fields which is less than ideal (wet, muddy fields and trolley wheels don't mix well)
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Crab
I also find it depressing about the future of the SAR force, being an ex 22 sqn bloke. It's criminal to wind up such an asset. I know I jest about transfers etc but it's true that the hospital transfer capabilities will be reduced when the contract begins. But that's an aside from this thread.
homonculus
Sussex and Wiltshire have been operating at night for many years now. It has been possible only due to the police equipment which is fitted, admittedly only in rural areas but very successfuly.
zorab64
It is not a compromise and it works well in Sussex. It is a first-rate service both for the police and the ambulance services. As I said, there are obviously places where it would not work, your unit being one of them. But where it is in place, it works very well.
I also find it depressing about the future of the SAR force, being an ex 22 sqn bloke. It's criminal to wind up such an asset. I know I jest about transfers etc but it's true that the hospital transfer capabilities will be reduced when the contract begins. But that's an aside from this thread.
homonculus
but I doubt night or IFR operations will ever be viable
zorab64
Dual roling is effectively (I'd suggest) an interim or compromise solution in areas where they can't afford/justify both separately.
“Unfortunately many hospitals seem happy to build on HLS areas suitable for large helos and many either have LS only suitable for small helos or have to use alternate sites such as playing fields which is less than ideal (wet, muddy fields and trolley wheels don't mix well)”
Sadly, all too true. When I started here in 2005 we had 7 Hospital pads in our local patch. We are currently down to 3, 1 day only and the other 2 on football pitches which are an ambulance ride from casualty. All the others are now car parks which, unlike the helipads, are used as cash generators. One local hospital has bucked the trend though and included a superb rooftop pad in it’s re-build.It was finished and ready for use about a year ago but, as yet, has had no customers because the casualty department doesn’t open until Oct 09 
Sadly, all too true. When I started here in 2005 we had 7 Hospital pads in our local patch. We are currently down to 3, 1 day only and the other 2 on football pitches which are an ambulance ride from casualty. All the others are now car parks which, unlike the helipads, are used as cash generators. One local hospital has bucked the trend though and included a superb rooftop pad in it’s re-build.
It was finished and ready for use about a year ago but, as yet, has had no customers because the casualty department doesn’t open until Oct 09