Air ambulance/ Police- winching/ onshore rescue
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timex - one of the medics will be the winch-op. On arrival at the scene, we will land at the nearest suitable spot as usual. If the cas is within a sensible walking distance, and accessible, it will be treated as a normal HEMS tasking. IF it is thought appropriate to use the winch, the aircraft/crew will be prepped accordingly with both medics in the cabin.
Crab said " You are also changing your tune since you stated previously that the winch would only be used to deploy the paramedic, now you talk about repositioning the casualty as well - this is the sort of mission creep that turns into full blown rescue attempts"
No, I talk about "looking at repositioning the casualty" Here's my earlier tune in case you misheard it.
"If it works and actually adds something to the service then great – build up experience and maybe later add a little bit more like lifting the patient/stretcher out of the inaccessible area when necessary and placing them in a more suitable area from where they can be physically lifted into the aircraft if transporting is deemed necessary"
As for showing a need to use a winch, that's not up to me, fella. If the trustees feel it is warranted - for whatever reason - that is their decision.
They may ask me if something is feasible operationally and I'll give them my honest opinion and that's it.
"Your remark about the public having a right not to donate is rather arrogant - have you asked them all if they want to pay for the extra capability?"
Have you asked all the UK taxpayers if they want to donate to your operation??
The fact is that when people donate money without any stipulation on how it is to be used, it is up to the trustees to spend it on what they consider appropriate for the service. If people see what it is being spent on and don't like it then they will vote with their wallet. I don't see how stating that is "arrogant" ??
Were the public asked if we should upgrade the Bolkow to an Explorer? Were they asked if we should invest in the Airdesk technology? Or the purchase of the second Explorer? Or the RRV for use when the aircraft is off-line? NO of course not, but they were all decisions that have helped move our service forward. Decisions made by the Trustees. Trustees. the name says it all.
And you want to do the fell/mountain rescuers jobs for them as well - if the casualty is in an inaccessible place then call a SAR heli while you maintain your standby for jobs you are equipped to do.
Getting aid to the casualty (and getting them to hospital if necessary) is our job, we are quite aware of that. However, if having a winch on the aircraft helps us do that in some way, then we'll have one, thanks. We do call fell rescue and we do call SAR and we will continue to do so when necessary. And I'm sure you will continue to come. Provided of course, you are not trying to blag your way onto some RTC that you are not equipped to do....
One day we will get our winch. Then we will be trained under a CAA-approved program by professional instructors until we are considered competent enough to safely winch a paramedic up and down. We will then continue to train as much as is necessary to keep our skills sharp. We will monitor the whole program for as long as necessary to make an informed decision about where - if anywhere - to go with the program.
Everybody involved is acutely aware that it has to be done correctly otherwise a complete cluster-*** will ensue. If it does not work, it will not continue, period.
Or in the very carefully considered and thought-out opinion of 3D Cam
" I've seen them do this on Seaside Rescue, no problem for us! O.K. left a bit, a bit more, whats that noise?? Oh S
t!!"
Crab said " You are also changing your tune since you stated previously that the winch would only be used to deploy the paramedic, now you talk about repositioning the casualty as well - this is the sort of mission creep that turns into full blown rescue attempts"
No, I talk about "looking at repositioning the casualty" Here's my earlier tune in case you misheard it.
"If it works and actually adds something to the service then great – build up experience and maybe later add a little bit more like lifting the patient/stretcher out of the inaccessible area when necessary and placing them in a more suitable area from where they can be physically lifted into the aircraft if transporting is deemed necessary"
As for showing a need to use a winch, that's not up to me, fella. If the trustees feel it is warranted - for whatever reason - that is their decision.
They may ask me if something is feasible operationally and I'll give them my honest opinion and that's it.
"Your remark about the public having a right not to donate is rather arrogant - have you asked them all if they want to pay for the extra capability?"
Have you asked all the UK taxpayers if they want to donate to your operation??
The fact is that when people donate money without any stipulation on how it is to be used, it is up to the trustees to spend it on what they consider appropriate for the service. If people see what it is being spent on and don't like it then they will vote with their wallet. I don't see how stating that is "arrogant" ??
Were the public asked if we should upgrade the Bolkow to an Explorer? Were they asked if we should invest in the Airdesk technology? Or the purchase of the second Explorer? Or the RRV for use when the aircraft is off-line? NO of course not, but they were all decisions that have helped move our service forward. Decisions made by the Trustees. Trustees. the name says it all.
And you want to do the fell/mountain rescuers jobs for them as well - if the casualty is in an inaccessible place then call a SAR heli while you maintain your standby for jobs you are equipped to do.
Getting aid to the casualty (and getting them to hospital if necessary) is our job, we are quite aware of that. However, if having a winch on the aircraft helps us do that in some way, then we'll have one, thanks. We do call fell rescue and we do call SAR and we will continue to do so when necessary. And I'm sure you will continue to come. Provided of course, you are not trying to blag your way onto some RTC that you are not equipped to do....
One day we will get our winch. Then we will be trained under a CAA-approved program by professional instructors until we are considered competent enough to safely winch a paramedic up and down. We will then continue to train as much as is necessary to keep our skills sharp. We will monitor the whole program for as long as necessary to make an informed decision about where - if anywhere - to go with the program.
Everybody involved is acutely aware that it has to be done correctly otherwise a complete cluster-*** will ensue. If it does not work, it will not continue, period.
Or in the very carefully considered and thought-out opinion of 3D Cam
" I've seen them do this on Seaside Rescue, no problem for us! O.K. left a bit, a bit more, whats that noise?? Oh S
t!!"
Flaxton - looking at repositioning the casualty and actually repositioning the casualty are so close to each other as to be almost identical since the intention is clear but if that's the way you want to spin your statements then fine.
What is arrogant is saying if the public don't like your idea then they can just stop donating. Our job is the responsibility of government to discharge iaw the Chicago Convention and they are elected to spend the taxpayers money - can you say the same for your trustees and your operational remit?
You say you will train until you are capable of safely winching a paramedic up and down - you have only just told me you intend to winch the casualty as well if appropriate, extra training or cuffing it?
Jack jack - inappropriate use of the KED won't kill someone and it is always possible for a fractured pelvis to go unnoticed - I am well aware of what the kit is and how it works I was just highlighting the weakness in FFs analogy.
Tec pilot - the siting of SAR bases is designed to meet govt requirements for response times, much like the positioning of ambulances - do we need more money if we want a gold plated service? yes but I can't see it happening. There is nothing wrong with civilian rescuers but they must be properly established and trained specifically for the job if it is to be done properly and above all else they must keep current and proficient which is where the extra costs come in.
What is arrogant is saying if the public don't like your idea then they can just stop donating. Our job is the responsibility of government to discharge iaw the Chicago Convention and they are elected to spend the taxpayers money - can you say the same for your trustees and your operational remit?
You say you will train until you are capable of safely winching a paramedic up and down - you have only just told me you intend to winch the casualty as well if appropriate, extra training or cuffing it?
Jack jack - inappropriate use of the KED won't kill someone and it is always possible for a fractured pelvis to go unnoticed - I am well aware of what the kit is and how it works I was just highlighting the weakness in FFs analogy.
Tec pilot - the siting of SAR bases is designed to meet govt requirements for response times, much like the positioning of ambulances - do we need more money if we want a gold plated service? yes but I can't see it happening. There is nothing wrong with civilian rescuers but they must be properly established and trained specifically for the job if it is to be done properly and above all else they must keep current and proficient which is where the extra costs come in.
An enjoyable read so far. Who...pies, could this tempt you away from 70,000 tax-free per year and back to your spiritual home?!
Nodrama, you'll have gathered that the main protagonist here is a newly acquired 902 based oop north. Mind you, a winch-equipped heli might've helped with this job not a million miles from Henstridge a couple of years ago...
... or perhaps not (it's a paraglider pilot stuck 80 feet up a tree. We flew in the Fire & Rescue Service specialist team and left them to it)
FF, all the best with the idea; I'm sure you'll do what's best for the patients. Don't worry too much about trying to convince Crab about anything; you might recall the recent discussions about carrying doctors as part of the crew.
Nodrama, you'll have gathered that the main protagonist here is a newly acquired 902 based oop north. Mind you, a winch-equipped heli might've helped with this job not a million miles from Henstridge a couple of years ago...
... or perhaps not (it's a paraglider pilot stuck 80 feet up a tree. We flew in the Fire & Rescue Service specialist team and left them to it)
FF, all the best with the idea; I'm sure you'll do what's best for the patients. Don't worry too much about trying to convince Crab about anything; you might recall the recent discussions about carrying doctors as part of the crew.
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Flippin eck guys, yet another Prune pissing contest,
Crab,
I don't think for one moment you were born with a yellow helmet and i see through your threads that you ooze the ethos of being the dogs dangles that the military drummed into me too, by hinting that only you and the military can do it but no one else can. I also see you standing in line one day, queuing for a police/ AA job just like the rest of us..... What i'm hinting at is that when you do, you will realize that you got the job due to your experience level and that the skills you use positioning a helicopter feet away from a motorway light stantion at a big smash is the same proven skill that you use in your current job...... Just remember that one day you too will be a Civvy w&*nker that is more than capable of doing the job like the rest of us.
Flaxton,
Sign me up for some of that winching malarkey!!!! It's about time that Air Ambulances became useful emergency service platforms....... any sniff of a fire bucket too?
Jackjack,
Crab,
I don't think for one moment you were born with a yellow helmet and i see through your threads that you ooze the ethos of being the dogs dangles that the military drummed into me too, by hinting that only you and the military can do it but no one else can. I also see you standing in line one day, queuing for a police/ AA job just like the rest of us..... What i'm hinting at is that when you do, you will realize that you got the job due to your experience level and that the skills you use positioning a helicopter feet away from a motorway light stantion at a big smash is the same proven skill that you use in your current job...... Just remember that one day you too will be a Civvy w&*nker that is more than capable of doing the job like the rest of us.
Flaxton,
Sign me up for some of that winching malarkey!!!! It's about time that Air Ambulances became useful emergency service platforms....... any sniff of a fire bucket too?
Jackjack,
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Sign me up for some of that winching malarkey!!!! It's about time that Air Ambulances became useful emergency service platforms....... any sniff of a fire bucket too?
driver attendant asked if I thought Air Ambulances employed complete nuggets. Er, sometimes, by the look of it.
Last edited by Vie sans frontieres; 8th Feb 2008 at 08:27.
Russell - I have not turned this into a pissing contest - others jump to the conclusion that I am saying only SAR can winch which is not true at all.
If you read what I have said, the pilot skills are almost irrelevant in this situation - if you can't hover then get out of the cockpit - it is the winch op training that will be vital. Unlike us drivers, there are not hordes of experienced winch ops who are qualified paramedics and willing to operate in an air ambulance - that means training them from scratch. This will take time and money and may produce good operators in time. BUT just consider what it is like with a brand new winch op, straight off the course, how many mistakes will they make and how many can you afford for them to make? It is a big training burden any anyone who thinks differently is deluding themselves.
Thud - it takes a reasoned argument with some proper evidence to convince me - not just an attitude of 'we want to do it and we can so there'. In this case particularly the risk assessment seems flawed.
If you read what I have said, the pilot skills are almost irrelevant in this situation - if you can't hover then get out of the cockpit - it is the winch op training that will be vital. Unlike us drivers, there are not hordes of experienced winch ops who are qualified paramedics and willing to operate in an air ambulance - that means training them from scratch. This will take time and money and may produce good operators in time. BUT just consider what it is like with a brand new winch op, straight off the course, how many mistakes will they make and how many can you afford for them to make? It is a big training burden any anyone who thinks differently is deluding themselves.
Thud - it takes a reasoned argument with some proper evidence to convince me - not just an attitude of 'we want to do it and we can so there'. In this case particularly the risk assessment seems flawed.
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Thud
Nice pic and it would be nice if UK emergency service aviation paid better! My "spiritual home", as you say.
I've done Crab's job and I've done Flaxton's job and I understand the problems. It's true that when you are the dedicated SAR bunch you feel that no-one can come near your high standards and it is also true that RAF SAR are the best trained and equipped for the job. However, the point has been made that there may be significant delay in them attending onshore jobs. Equip the AA with a winch and there will be situations where they could get on with the job without having to tie up a significantly larger heli. I can remember just such a situation back when I was with AA. Car down an embankment through some trees. Long walk and scramble to the location, nowhere to land close by but space to winch and pop a paramedic down and winch up again if needs be. An easy place for a winch op to talk the pilot to. We had to wait for our mates from Leconfield SAR to bring their Seaking.
At Yorks AA we perceived a need for delivery of equipment underslung. I set about training the paramedics on basic talkdown "patter" for positioning and picking up loads. They quickly grasped it. The cost of the extra training flights was approved by the charity as there was an obvious benefit to the operation. The paramedics would, I'm sure, make excellent winch ops for straightforward overland operations.
I understand the concern about attempting rescues which may be beyond their basic capabilities but the pilots involved in AA are not mugs and they know when to say "No". And as far as I remember, paramedics are an intelligent bunch who put flight safety first. If any member of my crew was unhappy with a situation, we would pull off. No questions.
I wish Flaxton and his crew all the best with their new skills.
Nice pic and it would be nice if UK emergency service aviation paid better! My "spiritual home", as you say.
I've done Crab's job and I've done Flaxton's job and I understand the problems. It's true that when you are the dedicated SAR bunch you feel that no-one can come near your high standards and it is also true that RAF SAR are the best trained and equipped for the job. However, the point has been made that there may be significant delay in them attending onshore jobs. Equip the AA with a winch and there will be situations where they could get on with the job without having to tie up a significantly larger heli. I can remember just such a situation back when I was with AA. Car down an embankment through some trees. Long walk and scramble to the location, nowhere to land close by but space to winch and pop a paramedic down and winch up again if needs be. An easy place for a winch op to talk the pilot to. We had to wait for our mates from Leconfield SAR to bring their Seaking.
At Yorks AA we perceived a need for delivery of equipment underslung. I set about training the paramedics on basic talkdown "patter" for positioning and picking up loads. They quickly grasped it. The cost of the extra training flights was approved by the charity as there was an obvious benefit to the operation. The paramedics would, I'm sure, make excellent winch ops for straightforward overland operations.
I understand the concern about attempting rescues which may be beyond their basic capabilities but the pilots involved in AA are not mugs and they know when to say "No". And as far as I remember, paramedics are an intelligent bunch who put flight safety first. If any member of my crew was unhappy with a situation, we would pull off. No questions.
I wish Flaxton and his crew all the best with their new skills.
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Well said, i too thought paramedics were bright people and am sure under proper instruction ,from the right people, will learn the tasks involved, and am sure will walk before they can run. Highest respect to dedicated SAR crews but me thinks it`s possible. Good luck, oop north.
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Crab -
What is arrogant is saying if the public don't like your idea then they can just stop donating. Our job is the responsibility of government to discharge iaw the Chicago Convention and they are elected to spend the taxpayers money - can you say the same for your trustees and your operational remit?
Of course not. But I can say that just as the Government are elected to spend our money, the Trustees are entrusted to spend the money raised by the charity. I have no say at all in what my tax money is spent on, and I cannot withhold it. Our benefactors can and will if they don't like what we are spending it on.
Have you ever donated to a charity? Did you specify how your donation was to be used?
"You say you will train until you are capable of safely winching a paramedic up and down - you have only just told me you intend to winch the casualty as well if appropriate, extra training or cuffing it?"
Careful, slipping into 3DCam mode there. Why do you have this impression of AA crews as incompetent devil-may-care flyboys?? You really should get out in the real world for a while and have a look around. We all have families to go home to at the end of the day and nobody is taking this lightly. The CAA may have their knockers, but the one thing they will always do is cover their backsides. IF they approve something, you can guarantee that it is as safe and comprehensive as it possibly can be.
Nobody is intending to "cuff" anything. Shame on you for suggesting otherwise.
Just to re-iterate - I have not told you we are intending to winch patients, I have told you we will be looking at it. Same as we will be looking at full-time doctors on board, night transfers etc etc. Things evolve, that's how we get better.
Thing is Crab, we're never going to agree on this, so I'll wander off to some other thread and find somebody else to annoy. Be careful out there.
P.S.
I guess this is probably a bad time to mention phase 3 - our plan to parachute-deploy our lightweight 4x4 rescue buggy through the rear loading door?
Russell - I'll knock up a quick winching DVD for you. Just sign the enclosed slip to say that you have watched and understood it, that should do. Bring your own gloves and you can start Monday.
Ref the fire bucket.....I'll have a word with the Trustees and get back to you.
What is arrogant is saying if the public don't like your idea then they can just stop donating. Our job is the responsibility of government to discharge iaw the Chicago Convention and they are elected to spend the taxpayers money - can you say the same for your trustees and your operational remit?
Of course not. But I can say that just as the Government are elected to spend our money, the Trustees are entrusted to spend the money raised by the charity. I have no say at all in what my tax money is spent on, and I cannot withhold it. Our benefactors can and will if they don't like what we are spending it on.
Have you ever donated to a charity? Did you specify how your donation was to be used?
"You say you will train until you are capable of safely winching a paramedic up and down - you have only just told me you intend to winch the casualty as well if appropriate, extra training or cuffing it?"
Careful, slipping into 3DCam mode there. Why do you have this impression of AA crews as incompetent devil-may-care flyboys?? You really should get out in the real world for a while and have a look around. We all have families to go home to at the end of the day and nobody is taking this lightly. The CAA may have their knockers, but the one thing they will always do is cover their backsides. IF they approve something, you can guarantee that it is as safe and comprehensive as it possibly can be.
Nobody is intending to "cuff" anything. Shame on you for suggesting otherwise.
Just to re-iterate - I have not told you we are intending to winch patients, I have told you we will be looking at it. Same as we will be looking at full-time doctors on board, night transfers etc etc. Things evolve, that's how we get better.
Thing is Crab, we're never going to agree on this, so I'll wander off to some other thread and find somebody else to annoy. Be careful out there.
P.S.
I guess this is probably a bad time to mention phase 3 - our plan to parachute-deploy our lightweight 4x4 rescue buggy through the rear loading door?
Russell - I'll knock up a quick winching DVD for you. Just sign the enclosed slip to say that you have watched and understood it, that should do. Bring your own gloves and you can start Monday.
Ref the fire bucket.....I'll have a word with the Trustees and get back to you.
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Er.... best keep that quiet Bertie..We bought it primarily so that as well as doing the jobs of SAR and Fell / Mountain Rescue, we can also put the radiologists out of work with our on-site X-ray capability.
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In order to raise the level of debate here somewhat, I say let the civvy helicopters fit whatever rescue kit they like and take on whatever roles they like. Only by learning the hard way will they ever learn to take advice.
You just can't save some people from themselves.
You just can't save some people from themselves.
Yaaaaawwwwnnnnn.........still waiting for your justification eg numbers of jobs that needed a winch to improve delivery of care.
So once you train to winch the paramedic and then LOOK at winching the casualty, having decided you do want that extra capability will you go and retrain to winch stretchers and the like or will you just try it and see. What have the CAA actually agreed for you to do - winch paramedics in and out or casualties as well, paramedics are crew - do the casualties count as passengers?
Lots of guys I flew with are now out doing AA and police work so I know it is not populated by numpties but you assume that your bright paramedics will have enough other skills and aviation awareness to pick up winching just like that. How long do we take before we let winchops out on jobs without supervision?
HAL9000 - well said chap
So once you train to winch the paramedic and then LOOK at winching the casualty, having decided you do want that extra capability will you go and retrain to winch stretchers and the like or will you just try it and see. What have the CAA actually agreed for you to do - winch paramedics in and out or casualties as well, paramedics are crew - do the casualties count as passengers?
Lots of guys I flew with are now out doing AA and police work so I know it is not populated by numpties but you assume that your bright paramedics will have enough other skills and aviation awareness to pick up winching just like that. How long do we take before we let winchops out on jobs without supervision?
HAL9000 - well said chap
This thread started with a question asking about winch-fitted HEMS helicopters in the UK. The question I would have posed would have been "is there an operational requirement for winching by HEMS helicopters in the UK and would it add a cost-effective capability".
If a comparison with HEMS operators in Europe was required one could look to JAA TGL 43, paragraph 1.7.6, where it could be seen that HEC flights (that is both winching and long/short haul) occur in about 20% of the missions - not surprising really as the operational area is the Alps.
It would therefore appear that geography plays a large part; as does the presence of a large transient population conducting recreational sports - which indicates a certain amount of risk.
There is nothing in the extant regulation that prevents winching by UK HEMS operators; it can therefore probably be observed that: the reduction of payload; the additional cost of equipment; and training (which in the UK has to be at HEC Class D Standards), outweigh the potential benefits.
The fact that there do not appear to have been any cost benefit analyses (or none that I have heard of) probably indicates that the sums can be done on the back of a 'fag packet' - or put more scientifically, qualitatively.
Jim
If a comparison with HEMS operators in Europe was required one could look to JAA TGL 43, paragraph 1.7.6, where it could be seen that HEC flights (that is both winching and long/short haul) occur in about 20% of the missions - not surprising really as the operational area is the Alps.
It would therefore appear that geography plays a large part; as does the presence of a large transient population conducting recreational sports - which indicates a certain amount of risk.
There is nothing in the extant regulation that prevents winching by UK HEMS operators; it can therefore probably be observed that: the reduction of payload; the additional cost of equipment; and training (which in the UK has to be at HEC Class D Standards), outweigh the potential benefits.
The fact that there do not appear to have been any cost benefit analyses (or none that I have heard of) probably indicates that the sums can be done on the back of a 'fag packet' - or put more scientifically, qualitatively.
Jim
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The AA unit in question have conducted a review of the previous occasions when a winch would have been useful and have decided that this figure, whatever it is, warrants beginning winching operations, all be it in a limited capacity.
Besides a winch there are other pieces of equipment that may not get used on a daily basis but when on the occasion they are required they still help to achieve the task. Does their lack of regular use make them any the less important, no of course not.
you might just be on to somthing here
Besides a winch there are other pieces of equipment that may not get used on a daily basis but when on the occasion they are required they still help to achieve the task. Does their lack of regular use make them any the less important, no of course not.
...let the civvy helicopters fit whatever rescue kit they like and take on whatever roles they like.
In which case maybe FF would like to detail the extensive winching experience he has that allows him to fly in the face of what would seem common sense. FF if you are an experienced pilot with lots of winching experience, you might just make it work safely since you would be the arbiter of what is acceptable and not in terms of winch op performance.
Could you also detail the planned working patterns of the guys who will be winch opping in terms of flying continuity and planned winching currency and practice.
Still haven't found out what that magic number of jobs is that prompted this drive for extra capability.
So far it still sounds like 'back of a fag packet' to me.
Could you also detail the planned working patterns of the guys who will be winch opping in terms of flying continuity and planned winching currency and practice.
Still haven't found out what that magic number of jobs is that prompted this drive for extra capability.
So far it still sounds like 'back of a fag packet' to me.
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Crab -" Yaaaaawwwwnnnnn.........still waiting for your justification eg numbers of jobs that needed a winch to improve delivery of care"
Err..why do we have to justify anything to you? Who put you in charge??
Err..why do we have to justify anything to you? Who put you in charge??
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Still haven't found out what that magic number of jobs is that prompted this drive for extra capability.
Daylight of course.
The night winching will come in due course.
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At the moment I believe that almost all the AAs/HEMS conduct what is, effectively, flying from point A to point B in Day/VMC. Therefore, even in this very narrow role there is no all weather, day/night provision of a AA/HEMS service.
When blowing their own trumpets whilst waving a collecting tin under our noses, the fact that they shut up shop when the weather gets bad and/or it gets dark, leaving the military (RN and RAF) to do the more difficult stuff, is conveniently ignored.
My question is, why not learn to walk before you try to run. Develop a day/night/IMC med-transfer capability first and then build on that?
When blowing their own trumpets whilst waving a collecting tin under our noses, the fact that they shut up shop when the weather gets bad and/or it gets dark, leaving the military (RN and RAF) to do the more difficult stuff, is conveniently ignored.
My question is, why not learn to walk before you try to run. Develop a day/night/IMC med-transfer capability first and then build on that?