Air ambulance/ Police- winching/ onshore rescue
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My question is, why not learn to walk before you try to run.
Quite a few ex "runners" out here in the UK HEMS world; from the CAA to AOC holders and the 'workers'.
.....and one or two new steps to learn for 'ex-runners'....
for example, at a job you actually have to get out of the front seat and help!
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HAL,
I believe that HEMS are already walking..... all the Scottish AA are H24 IFR, yes even the helicopters. The problem with doing that though is availability of H24 airports with IAPs. And I am sure that someone will come up with the argument that a winch increases capability more than an IFR capability - who's to say they are wrong? Besides flying in marginal VFR conditions as HEMS often do is far more challenging than IFR.
As for your comment which if I'm not mistaken amounts to giving the HEMS guys enough rope with which to hang themselves. What sort of person are you? That's like me saying why don't the RAF remove their SAR capability from the country and send all the crews to front line taskings to get shot at. Afterall only 5% of UK SAR taskings are for military operations. And no I don't think like that.
What really annoys me is this RAF attitude that they are the only ones worthy of any interesting flying. You may well be the best (although some Pongo mates would contest that and I'm not talking pilots) but you are not the only ones capable of quality training and training is the bed rock of capability.
Wake up guys, civillian operators have been winching for decades. We are not talking having the ability to winch to heaving decks or big cliffs. How much of the SARTUs winch ops course is devoted to winching to decks 50%? more? Basic winching is not a black art, all it takes is training, practice and some money. If the charities and ultimately those that donate deem that to be worthy of their cash then so be it. It is not for any of us to question the ethics.
I believe that HEMS are already walking..... all the Scottish AA are H24 IFR, yes even the helicopters. The problem with doing that though is availability of H24 airports with IAPs. And I am sure that someone will come up with the argument that a winch increases capability more than an IFR capability - who's to say they are wrong? Besides flying in marginal VFR conditions as HEMS often do is far more challenging than IFR.
As for your comment which if I'm not mistaken amounts to giving the HEMS guys enough rope with which to hang themselves. What sort of person are you? That's like me saying why don't the RAF remove their SAR capability from the country and send all the crews to front line taskings to get shot at. Afterall only 5% of UK SAR taskings are for military operations. And no I don't think like that.
What really annoys me is this RAF attitude that they are the only ones worthy of any interesting flying. You may well be the best (although some Pongo mates would contest that and I'm not talking pilots) but you are not the only ones capable of quality training and training is the bed rock of capability.
Wake up guys, civillian operators have been winching for decades. We are not talking having the ability to winch to heaving decks or big cliffs. How much of the SARTUs winch ops course is devoted to winching to decks 50%? more? Basic winching is not a black art, all it takes is training, practice and some money. If the charities and ultimately those that donate deem that to be worthy of their cash then so be it. It is not for any of us to question the ethics.
Avoid imitations
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In order to raise the level of debate here somewhat, I say let the civvy helicopters fit whatever rescue kit they like and take on whatever roles they like. Only by learning the hard way will they ever learn to take advice.
You just can't save some people from themselves.
You just can't save some people from themselves.
One AA pilot, right here in this debate (now flying a little yellow low-noise signature Hoover) used to be the RAF's SAR Sea King Examiner, although he doesn't blow his own trumpet...
To the folks who think that civvies can't do the job - Does that put it in perspective a little better?
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Speaking as someone who's a Trustee of a UK AA charity, I remain to be convinced that fitting a winch to one or all of our aircraft is something we should consider. Some of our paramedics asked about it a few years ago, but when I pointed out the not insignificant number of hours that would need to be spent in achieving and then maintaining currency, the subject was dropped. Speaking personally, I can't see the financial costs being outweighed by the occasional benefits of having a winch-equipped aircraft and I'll say as much if ever the Trustees are asked to consider funding for such a project.
That's not to say that other charities shouldn't go down that route - I just know where our current financial priorities lie and equipping our a/c with winches isn't on the list. I suspect the AA community will be watching any developments in Yorkshire/anywhere else with great interest.
On a related matter, I remember being told by a SAR flight pilot that there was no way they could support a fundraising "heli-day" in the very early days of the charity, since "you'll soon be taking most of our jobs". Nothing could be further from the truth, as it happens, as our paramedics know full well that an early call for a SAR cab is almost always beneficial for the patient. There are certain regular incident locations (a popular set of waterfalls, for example) where experience has shown that the patient is usually accessible to the paramedics after a short-ish walk in, but that the best way of removing said patient is usually via winch.
57A
That's not to say that other charities shouldn't go down that route - I just know where our current financial priorities lie and equipping our a/c with winches isn't on the list. I suspect the AA community will be watching any developments in Yorkshire/anywhere else with great interest.
On a related matter, I remember being told by a SAR flight pilot that there was no way they could support a fundraising "heli-day" in the very early days of the charity, since "you'll soon be taking most of our jobs". Nothing could be further from the truth, as it happens, as our paramedics know full well that an early call for a SAR cab is almost always beneficial for the patient. There are certain regular incident locations (a popular set of waterfalls, for example) where experience has shown that the patient is usually accessible to the paramedics after a short-ish walk in, but that the best way of removing said patient is usually via winch.
57A
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Now that we are 20+ years down the line of air ambulance operations any charity that is happy to sit back and plod on with a normal 10 hour DAY/ VFR shift pattern should really be thinking about if they really are providing the best service they can.
The charities have all come along way since first shaking the tins years ago and are probably all now multi million pound businesses that are probably now in the position to start pushing forward with the advancement of air ambulance operations....
By adding a winch to any air ambulance will only serve one purpose, and that is to upgrade the service that they offer, o.k not all AA need one but there are quite a lot of hilly areas that make up the UK.
As for All weather Op's, SAR can not provide anything more than a AA can when the weather sets in apart from operating over the sea where there is nothing to bump into. If anyone can explain how IFR hill side rescues work then please crack on......
Regarding night HEMS, i'd suggest that a combination of lack of funds/ crews, the fact that most people are in bed at night coupled with the risk to crews out weighing the benefit to patient prevent such ops..... but as already mentioned night transfers are already in operation and once all the AA are on board to provide national coverage at night will advance things greatly.
The charities have all come along way since first shaking the tins years ago and are probably all now multi million pound businesses that are probably now in the position to start pushing forward with the advancement of air ambulance operations....
By adding a winch to any air ambulance will only serve one purpose, and that is to upgrade the service that they offer, o.k not all AA need one but there are quite a lot of hilly areas that make up the UK.
As for All weather Op's, SAR can not provide anything more than a AA can when the weather sets in apart from operating over the sea where there is nothing to bump into. If anyone can explain how IFR hill side rescues work then please crack on......
Regarding night HEMS, i'd suggest that a combination of lack of funds/ crews, the fact that most people are in bed at night coupled with the risk to crews out weighing the benefit to patient prevent such ops..... but as already mentioned night transfers are already in operation and once all the AA are on board to provide national coverage at night will advance things greatly.
...not forgetting, Russell, that 2 operations (Wilts and Sussex) already provide night HEMS to PAOM limits thanks to innovative arrangements twixt 2 emergency services.
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Your right, and what a great balance they have too, maybe we should be looking at emergency service platforms instead of individual AA/ Police machines, having worked on a combined operation before it certainly makes for a busy day, chasing chazs then scooping them off the road after having a front row aerial seat at their demise.
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chasing chazs
The trouble with winches...
The trouble with winches, when fitted to civil helicopters is...
Can you afford to dedicate a helicopter to this role?
Despite the publicity most winches will require a licenced engineer to fit them - Have you got an engineer on-shift and a spare to replace a duff winch?
How many winches will you need to keep a serviceable winch on a serviceable helicopter?
Winches are governed by "Lifts" - most maintenance programs do not cover Lifts?
Who will attend specific Winch Maintenance Courses? Contract Engineers?
Who will turn the duff winches around quickly enough for you?
Who will pay for your winches? and finally...
Why?
Can you afford to dedicate a helicopter to this role?
Despite the publicity most winches will require a licenced engineer to fit them - Have you got an engineer on-shift and a spare to replace a duff winch?
How many winches will you need to keep a serviceable winch on a serviceable helicopter?
Winches are governed by "Lifts" - most maintenance programs do not cover Lifts?
Who will attend specific Winch Maintenance Courses? Contract Engineers?
Who will turn the duff winches around quickly enough for you?
Who will pay for your winches? and finally...
Why?
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Five seven alpha
insignificant number of hours that would need to be spent in achieving and then maintaining currency
Can you expand on the above, What were the initial training costs and currency requirements for your AA that were so bad for you to sideline it ?
Crabb
I see you are requiring statistics from Flaxton flyer that prompted the consideration of hoist ops for the AA.
What amount of jobs should the Air ambulances be doing, that require hoist operations ? Please answer per annum, before YOU think they should consider it to be a viable option to apply to the CAA to do hoist ops themselves.
insignificant number of hours that would need to be spent in achieving and then maintaining currency
Can you expand on the above, What were the initial training costs and currency requirements for your AA that were so bad for you to sideline it ?
Crabb
I see you are requiring statistics from Flaxton flyer that prompted the consideration of hoist ops for the AA.
What amount of jobs should the Air ambulances be doing, that require hoist operations ? Please answer per annum, before YOU think they should consider it to be a viable option to apply to the CAA to do hoist ops themselves.
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jackjack
You missed out the word "not" from my quote, which makes quite a difference I think you'll agree.
I'm not a HEMS pilot - merely a lapsed PPL(H) - but I am a Trustee of one of the AA charities. Together with my colleagues, I'm responsible for the financial side of the charity and, as I mentioned, the argument for fitting our aircraft with winches isn't one I could currently support. I have limited experience of SAR operations and am well aware that AA winch operations wouldn't involve nights or decks, for example, but there would still be a need for a NOT insignificant number of hours spent ensuring all the paramedics were current at both ends of the winch. That's money that could be used in other areas of the operation.
Russell
You're absolutely correct in that AA helicopters have been operating in the UK for 20+ years. The charity with which I'm involved, however, is one of the newest, having only been formed in 2000. We currently operate 3 helicopters - all Bolkow 105s, which will need to be upgraded to new generation aircraft within the next few years. We're in the fortunate position of not having experienced the kind of funding issues that have haunted some of the other AA charities, but that doesn't mean we can be complacent.
Our priorities are ensuring that our newest airbase becomes a 7 day a week operation, then the new generation helicopters. Fitting winches, and the necessary extra flying hours needed, are currently a long way down the list.
As I said in my earlier post, that doesn't mean I think fitting winches is necessarily a bad idea - just not one that we can justify in the short to medium term. I hope this clears up any confusion.
57A
You missed out the word "not" from my quote, which makes quite a difference I think you'll agree.
I'm not a HEMS pilot - merely a lapsed PPL(H) - but I am a Trustee of one of the AA charities. Together with my colleagues, I'm responsible for the financial side of the charity and, as I mentioned, the argument for fitting our aircraft with winches isn't one I could currently support. I have limited experience of SAR operations and am well aware that AA winch operations wouldn't involve nights or decks, for example, but there would still be a need for a NOT insignificant number of hours spent ensuring all the paramedics were current at both ends of the winch. That's money that could be used in other areas of the operation.
Russell
You're absolutely correct in that AA helicopters have been operating in the UK for 20+ years. The charity with which I'm involved, however, is one of the newest, having only been formed in 2000. We currently operate 3 helicopters - all Bolkow 105s, which will need to be upgraded to new generation aircraft within the next few years. We're in the fortunate position of not having experienced the kind of funding issues that have haunted some of the other AA charities, but that doesn't mean we can be complacent.
Our priorities are ensuring that our newest airbase becomes a 7 day a week operation, then the new generation helicopters. Fitting winches, and the necessary extra flying hours needed, are currently a long way down the list.
As I said in my earlier post, that doesn't mean I think fitting winches is necessarily a bad idea - just not one that we can justify in the short to medium term. I hope this clears up any confusion.
57A
Is anyone else outside the UK viewing this with incredulous amazement? I find it difficult to believe the assertions that seem to be implied here: are we really to believe that winching can only be carried out by the Military?
Since just about every Police and HEMS operation here in Oz is winch equipped and capable, and many have excelled in their ability, I suggest that Crab's claims be taken with a pinch, nay a jar full, of salt.
A few references to look at:
Air Ambulance Victoria.
Victoria Police: Air Wing.
More VicPol Air Wing.
Queensland EMQ AW139.
West Australia Police Air Wing.
RAAF SAR provided by CHC civilian S76.
1998 Sydney Hobart yacht rescue citation, Snowy Hydro Bell 412.
Wiki entry for 1998 Sydney Hobart.
The list is endless: crab, please research a little bit more outside your fiefdom, and see how it's done around the world: this is but a small example.
Civvies are quite professional, and quite capable.
Been there, done that, RN & civvie, got the T shirt......
Since just about every Police and HEMS operation here in Oz is winch equipped and capable, and many have excelled in their ability, I suggest that Crab's claims be taken with a pinch, nay a jar full, of salt.
A few references to look at:
Air Ambulance Victoria.
Victoria Police: Air Wing.
More VicPol Air Wing.
Queensland EMQ AW139.
West Australia Police Air Wing.
RAAF SAR provided by CHC civilian S76.
1998 Sydney Hobart yacht rescue citation, Snowy Hydro Bell 412.
Wiki entry for 1998 Sydney Hobart.
The list is endless: crab, please research a little bit more outside your fiefdom, and see how it's done around the world: this is but a small example.
Civvies are quite professional, and quite capable.
Been there, done that, RN & civvie, got the T shirt......
I find it incredulous that a police/hems driver hasn't mentioned the real reason for NOT winching from civvy cabs.
At the end of the day the Uk operator working under EASA regs [and this is the crippler - unlike our european friends who have seen the light and practice paramilitary ops] - we have to comply with JAR 3005.(h) as JimL said.
It's one of those paras anyway!
It requires those who winch for real, to train to winch in SSE mode. Plain and simple. You have to maintain SSE while trng to rapid rope/winch/etc.
All current light and medium twins in operation on mainland Uk are incapable of sustaining safe single engine in the hover while conducting training winch sorties including the 145. If you stripped it clean of everything including the kitchen sink, you moght be approaching somewhere near SSE but i doubt it. Certainly the 902/135 stables - forget it it is a non starter.
Failing that the emergency services are easily capable of doing everything necessary to offer winching/rapid roping as an option.
Interestingly - an operator is entitled to winch "in anger" in that IF they just happened to find a winch and attach it to their a/c for a regional disaster (flooding for example), they could save peoples lives that day, but it couldn't be sustained as a 'role' because they are not allowed to train in that role unless SSE!!! NUTS. Thats european law for you.
The met cab can't even come to the hover unless it's below a certain MAUM never mind winch!!!
At the end of the day the Uk operator working under EASA regs [and this is the crippler - unlike our european friends who have seen the light and practice paramilitary ops] - we have to comply with JAR 3005.(h) as JimL said.
It's one of those paras anyway!
It requires those who winch for real, to train to winch in SSE mode. Plain and simple. You have to maintain SSE while trng to rapid rope/winch/etc.
All current light and medium twins in operation on mainland Uk are incapable of sustaining safe single engine in the hover while conducting training winch sorties including the 145. If you stripped it clean of everything including the kitchen sink, you moght be approaching somewhere near SSE but i doubt it. Certainly the 902/135 stables - forget it it is a non starter.
Failing that the emergency services are easily capable of doing everything necessary to offer winching/rapid roping as an option.
Interestingly - an operator is entitled to winch "in anger" in that IF they just happened to find a winch and attach it to their a/c for a regional disaster (flooding for example), they could save peoples lives that day, but it couldn't be sustained as a 'role' because they are not allowed to train in that role unless SSE!!! NUTS. Thats european law for you.
The met cab can't even come to the hover unless it's below a certain MAUM never mind winch!!!
TC,
That makes a more compelling reason than the stuff I've read so far: thanks.
Without too much thread drift, but bearing in mind the title of the thread isn't UK exclusive, I dug up the statements from Darryl Jones, the VicPol pilot of the Dauphin during the Sydney Hobart (much like the Fastnet tragedy many years ago).
Darryls record of interview.
Darryl's statement.
Read and admire what they achieved. Lessons to be learnt all round
That makes a more compelling reason than the stuff I've read so far: thanks.
Without too much thread drift, but bearing in mind the title of the thread isn't UK exclusive, I dug up the statements from Darryl Jones, the VicPol pilot of the Dauphin during the Sydney Hobart (much like the Fastnet tragedy many years ago).
Darryls record of interview.
Darryl's statement.
Read and admire what they achieved. Lessons to be learnt all round
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Misrepresenting and misquoting Crab seems to be very popular. Here is what he actually posted earlier:
"If an inexperienced winch-op (since he is the crucial element in winching, not the pilot) injures or kills his winchman and/or the casualty because the crew had a winch and didn't think they should wait for SAR, what damage will that do do the excellent reputation of Air Ambs across UK?
All helicopter pilots can hover over land but winch-opping is a specialist skill that requires lots of training and plenty of practice. If the charities want to fund it then crack on but don't expect miracles. If it were me, I would make sure they all did a full SAR winch-ops course with annual competency checks."
Are his comments really that unreasonable to justify the rabid responses of some posters on this forum?
"If an inexperienced winch-op (since he is the crucial element in winching, not the pilot) injures or kills his winchman and/or the casualty because the crew had a winch and didn't think they should wait for SAR, what damage will that do do the excellent reputation of Air Ambs across UK?
All helicopter pilots can hover over land but winch-opping is a specialist skill that requires lots of training and plenty of practice. If the charities want to fund it then crack on but don't expect miracles. If it were me, I would make sure they all did a full SAR winch-ops course with annual competency checks."
Are his comments really that unreasonable to justify the rabid responses of some posters on this forum?
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Thomas Coupling
Certainly the 902/135 stables - forget it it is a non starter.
Don't you think you missed the point a bit ! i'ts already been approved by the big house at gatwick. They will of seen the business case put forward which included the initial training and recurrency training.
Try; http://www.atlasreed.co.uk/resources...es+Outline.pdf
Certainly the 902/135 stables - forget it it is a non starter.
Don't you think you missed the point a bit ! i'ts already been approved by the big house at gatwick. They will of seen the business case put forward which included the initial training and recurrency training.
Try; http://www.atlasreed.co.uk/resources...es+Outline.pdf
Jackjack: Of course - anyone can train winch, 3005(h) allows it and thats why external agencies like atlas advertise their courses.
All you have to be able to show in your AOC is that you can comply with the JAR reference.
If your stripped 135/902 can hover on one engine - go for it and good luck.
I challenge ANY UK police 135 to be able to meet the perf specs and would hedge my bet that even the air ambulance light twins couldn't do it either?
By the way, it's not up to the CAA to agree ones "business case", they simply regulate the arrangement you have in place. If you comply - gold star, if you don't they tell you to remove it from your OM.
Following on from this main theme about whether one can winch or not, surely what is the point of a light twin winching anyway - how many people can they fit inside? They'd spend half their lives transitting to and from the incident dropping pax off and having to return for the rest. Great "first responder" a/c but not a proper SAR a/c by a long way.
I would suggest the smallest purpose built SAR cab available today is the AW139. Which we shall see operating off the shores of the UK within months. 3 on the south coast and 2 possibly 3 others further north, very near where I live.
All you have to be able to show in your AOC is that you can comply with the JAR reference.
If your stripped 135/902 can hover on one engine - go for it and good luck.
I challenge ANY UK police 135 to be able to meet the perf specs and would hedge my bet that even the air ambulance light twins couldn't do it either?
By the way, it's not up to the CAA to agree ones "business case", they simply regulate the arrangement you have in place. If you comply - gold star, if you don't they tell you to remove it from your OM.
Following on from this main theme about whether one can winch or not, surely what is the point of a light twin winching anyway - how many people can they fit inside? They'd spend half their lives transitting to and from the incident dropping pax off and having to return for the rest. Great "first responder" a/c but not a proper SAR a/c by a long way.
I would suggest the smallest purpose built SAR cab available today is the AW139. Which we shall see operating off the shores of the UK within months. 3 on the south coast and 2 possibly 3 others further north, very near where I live.
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Thomas - I guess you could make a case for light twin winches for maritime pilot drops and I'm sure there are other niche markets round and about.
As for the 902, IF I recall correctly we can have HOGE 2.5 min performance at +20c with two paramedics in the back and none of the medikit removed. This with 250lbs (or around 30 mins) useable fuel.
As for the 902, IF I recall correctly we can have HOGE 2.5 min performance at +20c with two paramedics in the back and none of the medikit removed. This with 250lbs (or around 30 mins) useable fuel.
JimL, as usual you hit the nail!
It can be done anytime and anywhere in JAA land, it`s only a matter of sense and costs. The ratio between saved lifes or healths and costs. This is only a question to the operator. We are not talking about SAR in ICAO rules, we are talking about winches for AA. There are civil AA helicopters with winches or shorthaul possibilities at least in Norway, Sweden, Germany, Poland, Czech Rep., Austria, Switzerland, Italy, France, Portugal and may be there are some more.
TC, i would advice to inform before talking about "paramilitaries". I know you are living on an island, but itīs all JAA country, and the operators holding AOC`s according to JAR OPS 3. Only the police units have their own (better) rules.
Flaxton, check your possibilities and your needs, make a decision and go ahead. If you need expert help contact IKAR or LAR Luxembourg Air Rescue, also safe in the air with MD 902 with winches regularly used.
It can be done anytime and anywhere in JAA land, it`s only a matter of sense and costs. The ratio between saved lifes or healths and costs. This is only a question to the operator. We are not talking about SAR in ICAO rules, we are talking about winches for AA. There are civil AA helicopters with winches or shorthaul possibilities at least in Norway, Sweden, Germany, Poland, Czech Rep., Austria, Switzerland, Italy, France, Portugal and may be there are some more.
TC, i would advice to inform before talking about "paramilitaries". I know you are living on an island, but itīs all JAA country, and the operators holding AOC`s according to JAR OPS 3. Only the police units have their own (better) rules.
Flaxton, check your possibilities and your needs, make a decision and go ahead. If you need expert help contact IKAR or LAR Luxembourg Air Rescue, also safe in the air with MD 902 with winches regularly used.
Last edited by tecpilot; 10th Feb 2008 at 20:17.
So, apart from:
1. There still seems to be little actual (instead of perceived) requirement for this capability.
2. None of the aircraft currently in use have the performance to winch in training nor the cabin capacity on ops.
3. FF is deathly silent about his winching experience
4. A trustee from another AA charity thinks it is a pointless idea.
5. The paramedics will probably still spend half their time on land ambulances and half on AA (watch the skill fade chaps)
and 6. It will cost a small fortune to train the paramedics to the required standard and then keep them current (and more importantly proficient). And another small fortune to aquire and maintain the hoists.
This is sounding like a really robust and well thought out exercise.
For the record, I have absolutely no objection to AA or police carrying out winching duties - I just want to see it done properly and so far this plan stinks.
Actually, I would rather you got yourselves a bigger helicopter so you can do all the interhospital transfers (ECMO and the like) that SAR helicopters get tasked for day and night.
Or feel free to join in a multi aircraft Op like Gloucester in a 250' cloud base at night - come on down it's easy.........
1. There still seems to be little actual (instead of perceived) requirement for this capability.
2. None of the aircraft currently in use have the performance to winch in training nor the cabin capacity on ops.
3. FF is deathly silent about his winching experience
4. A trustee from another AA charity thinks it is a pointless idea.
5. The paramedics will probably still spend half their time on land ambulances and half on AA (watch the skill fade chaps)
and 6. It will cost a small fortune to train the paramedics to the required standard and then keep them current (and more importantly proficient). And another small fortune to aquire and maintain the hoists.
This is sounding like a really robust and well thought out exercise.
For the record, I have absolutely no objection to AA or police carrying out winching duties - I just want to see it done properly and so far this plan stinks.
Actually, I would rather you got yourselves a bigger helicopter so you can do all the interhospital transfers (ECMO and the like) that SAR helicopters get tasked for day and night.
Or feel free to join in a multi aircraft Op like Gloucester in a 250' cloud base at night - come on down it's easy.........