Air ambulance/ Police- winching/ onshore rescue
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Crab, perhaps you have done the one thing the UK emergency services air support services fear most, something involving emperors and new clothes...many well intentioned and undoubtedly skilled people providing services that aren't necessarily, err... as essential as most people think.
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Crab – do you ever actually read anything anybody else posts before jumping on your keyboard?
Such tosh doesn’t really deserve a reply, but it’s quiet at the moment so I'll indulge you.
“1. There still seems to be little actual (instead of perceived) requirement for this capability”
As you yourself have pointed out on many occasions, you don’t know the figures that this decision has been based on so you are not in a position to say.
2. None of the aircraft currently in use have the performance to winch in training nor the cabin capacity on ops
Wrong and wrong. As I pointed out in my last post our 902 is quite capable of achieving SSE for training purposes. As we are not planning on winching casualties up and into the cabin (not even LOOKING at it) the “lack of cabin capacity” is not an issue.
3. FF is deathly silent about his winching experience
I have the same amount of winch experience as you did before you went on your winching course. In the words of Douglas Bader – “I expect to be taught, Sir”.
But as you yourself said earlier :
“If you read what I have said, the pilot skills are almost irrelevant in this situation - if you can't hover then get out of the cockpit - it is the winch op training that will be vital”
4. A trustee from another AA charity thinks it is a pointless idea.
So that’s one trustee out of one of what, 23 charities then? A resounding “No” to AA winch ops there, eh? Well, not quite, as even this one voice didn’t say it was a pointless idea. What he actually said was :
“As I said in my earlier post, that doesn't mean I think fitting winches is necessarily a bad idea - just not one that we can justify in the short to medium term. I hope this clears up any confusion.”
So do I, but I doubt it. And –
“Our priorities are ensuring that our newest airbase becomes a 7 day a week operation, then the new generation helicopters. Fitting winches, and the necessary extra flying hours needed, are currently a long way down the list”
We have our airbase and our 7 day a week operation and our new generation aircraft. As you can see, we are a lot further down our particular list.
“5. The paramedics will probably still spend half their time on land ambulances and half on AA (watch the skill fade chaps)”
Which is why there will be a robust currency training regime in place.
“6. It will cost a small fortune to train the paramedics to the required standard and then keep them current (and more importantly proficient). And another small fortune to aquire and maintain the hoists”
I’m glad you at least acknowledge that we intend to properly train our crews. And of course you cannot have any idea how much the training will cost, or how it will be financed so you are not qualified to comment on that.
This is sounding like a really robust and well thought out exercise.
For the record, I have absolutely no objection to AA or police carrying out winching duties - I just want to see it done properly and so far this plan stinks.
So let’s look at this “stinky” plan.
Does the Charity have the desire and perceived need to implement a winch program?
YES.
Is the aircraft capable of training SSE as required under JAR?
YES
Will the training be done according to a CAA-approved training programme?
YES
Will the training program be devised and implemented by an external contractor highly experienced in winch training ops?
YES
Will this programme requires a robust currency regime?
YES
Will the programme be implemented in stages?
YES
Does the Charity have any say in the type or amount of training?
NO. The aircraft is owned by the Charity but run under the AOC of one of the longest established Emergency Services providers. (In fact probably one of the places you will be sniffing around when you get disbanded in 2012..)
So to sum up, the Charity have decided they want the winch capability, and they have the funds to pay for it. The AOC operator, with CAA approval, have engaged an external contractor to provide the specialized training. A staged training plan has been put together and approved, which will include robust currency requirements. The winch operations will be constantly monitored and if the charity are happy with the results, it will continue. If not, I have no doubt they will decide to terminate it and look at some other way of improving their service.
Please feel free to point out where this plan “stinks”. Any constructive criticism would be welcome.
Actually, I would rather you got yourselves a bigger helicopter so you can do all the interhospital transfers (ECMO and the like) that SAR helicopters get tasked for day and night.
There might be some mileage in that at a later date. But then, if we took all those jobs off you, would we really be getting value for our “tax dollars” from you?
Large helicopters are great out at sea or over the mountains, but not really suited to the urban environment where we are required to operate from time to time. And most Hospital LS come to that.
“For the record, I have absolutely no objection to AA or police carrying out winching duties - I just want to see it done properly”
Please…. Crab, If that was your true concern, you would be offering help and advice on how to do it safely and properly. Everybody knows you and what your agenda is, don’t try and pretend otherwise, it’s so……transparant.
Such tosh doesn’t really deserve a reply, but it’s quiet at the moment so I'll indulge you.
“1. There still seems to be little actual (instead of perceived) requirement for this capability”
As you yourself have pointed out on many occasions, you don’t know the figures that this decision has been based on so you are not in a position to say.
2. None of the aircraft currently in use have the performance to winch in training nor the cabin capacity on ops
Wrong and wrong. As I pointed out in my last post our 902 is quite capable of achieving SSE for training purposes. As we are not planning on winching casualties up and into the cabin (not even LOOKING at it) the “lack of cabin capacity” is not an issue.
3. FF is deathly silent about his winching experience
I have the same amount of winch experience as you did before you went on your winching course. In the words of Douglas Bader – “I expect to be taught, Sir”.
But as you yourself said earlier :
“If you read what I have said, the pilot skills are almost irrelevant in this situation - if you can't hover then get out of the cockpit - it is the winch op training that will be vital”
4. A trustee from another AA charity thinks it is a pointless idea.
So that’s one trustee out of one of what, 23 charities then? A resounding “No” to AA winch ops there, eh? Well, not quite, as even this one voice didn’t say it was a pointless idea. What he actually said was :
“As I said in my earlier post, that doesn't mean I think fitting winches is necessarily a bad idea - just not one that we can justify in the short to medium term. I hope this clears up any confusion.”
So do I, but I doubt it. And –
“Our priorities are ensuring that our newest airbase becomes a 7 day a week operation, then the new generation helicopters. Fitting winches, and the necessary extra flying hours needed, are currently a long way down the list”
We have our airbase and our 7 day a week operation and our new generation aircraft. As you can see, we are a lot further down our particular list.
“5. The paramedics will probably still spend half their time on land ambulances and half on AA (watch the skill fade chaps)”
Which is why there will be a robust currency training regime in place.
“6. It will cost a small fortune to train the paramedics to the required standard and then keep them current (and more importantly proficient). And another small fortune to aquire and maintain the hoists”
I’m glad you at least acknowledge that we intend to properly train our crews. And of course you cannot have any idea how much the training will cost, or how it will be financed so you are not qualified to comment on that.
This is sounding like a really robust and well thought out exercise.
For the record, I have absolutely no objection to AA or police carrying out winching duties - I just want to see it done properly and so far this plan stinks.
So let’s look at this “stinky” plan.
Does the Charity have the desire and perceived need to implement a winch program?
YES.
Is the aircraft capable of training SSE as required under JAR?
YES
Will the training be done according to a CAA-approved training programme?
YES
Will the training program be devised and implemented by an external contractor highly experienced in winch training ops?
YES
Will this programme requires a robust currency regime?
YES
Will the programme be implemented in stages?
YES
Does the Charity have any say in the type or amount of training?
NO. The aircraft is owned by the Charity but run under the AOC of one of the longest established Emergency Services providers. (In fact probably one of the places you will be sniffing around when you get disbanded in 2012..)
So to sum up, the Charity have decided they want the winch capability, and they have the funds to pay for it. The AOC operator, with CAA approval, have engaged an external contractor to provide the specialized training. A staged training plan has been put together and approved, which will include robust currency requirements. The winch operations will be constantly monitored and if the charity are happy with the results, it will continue. If not, I have no doubt they will decide to terminate it and look at some other way of improving their service.
Please feel free to point out where this plan “stinks”. Any constructive criticism would be welcome.
Actually, I would rather you got yourselves a bigger helicopter so you can do all the interhospital transfers (ECMO and the like) that SAR helicopters get tasked for day and night.
There might be some mileage in that at a later date. But then, if we took all those jobs off you, would we really be getting value for our “tax dollars” from you?
Large helicopters are great out at sea or over the mountains, but not really suited to the urban environment where we are required to operate from time to time. And most Hospital LS come to that.
“For the record, I have absolutely no objection to AA or police carrying out winching duties - I just want to see it done properly”
Please…. Crab, If that was your true concern, you would be offering help and advice on how to do it safely and properly. Everybody knows you and what your agenda is, don’t try and pretend otherwise, it’s so……transparant.
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Time to call it a day me thinks on this thread...... Flax, good luck with the future training, i'm sure it will pay off and be a big step in the right direction for Air ambs....
Crab, when were you at SAAVN? I'm dying to know your true ID, were you that chap stood at the bar every night with no one to talk to???
Crab, when were you at SAAVN? I'm dying to know your true ID, were you that chap stood at the bar every night with no one to talk to???
FF - Thomas Coupling is an experienced and well respected Police/HEMS pilot and he says you don't have the performance yet you maintain you do - frankly I would take his word over yours anytime.
So you have NO WINCHING EXPERIENCE but you hold court and proclaim what is and isn't feasible or sensible regarding winching - mate you are an accident waiting to happen because you won't listen. I have been doing winching and instructing it and examining it for over 25 years so I have a vague idea of what I am talking about.
Russell - 94 to 01 if you are interested, ask people from 671 if you know any.
You don't seem to understand that I don't care if FF winches or not - I just want to stop well meaning, ambitious amateurs biting off more than they can chew and hurting someone. If FF is the aviation expert advising the trustees and the ambulance service about winching then heaven help the paramedics.
So you have NO WINCHING EXPERIENCE but you hold court and proclaim what is and isn't feasible or sensible regarding winching - mate you are an accident waiting to happen because you won't listen. I have been doing winching and instructing it and examining it for over 25 years so I have a vague idea of what I am talking about.
Russell - 94 to 01 if you are interested, ask people from 671 if you know any.
You don't seem to understand that I don't care if FF winches or not - I just want to stop well meaning, ambitious amateurs biting off more than they can chew and hurting someone. If FF is the aviation expert advising the trustees and the ambulance service about winching then heaven help the paramedics.
Flaxton; you have done a sterling effort on this thread to explain the detailed process that the AOC holder is going through for the trustees in this matter.
Please don't rise to Crabs latest bait!
Please don't rise to Crabs latest bait!
Could this be a nightmare for the proven SAR boys? 
A german civil AA operator (German Automotive Club) winches down a medic to a SAR ship
Not an alldays job, but it fits so wonderful to this thread! Together we are strong!
Yes Thud_and_Blunder,
this fu...ng paragliders are regularly customers To be honest, paraglider rescue is a sucking and dangerous job, but often done in Germany, Austria and Switzerland with helicopter. Nothing for a normal paramedic coming straight from the street into a rescue helicopter. If a operator is interested to do such missions it's very important to train the staff as good as possible.
A german civil AA operator (German Automotive Club) winches down a medic to a SAR ship
Not an alldays job, but it fits so wonderful to this thread! Together we are strong!
Mind you, a winch-equipped heli might've helped with this job not a million miles from Henstridge a couple of years ago...
this fu...ng paragliders are regularly customers
To be honest, paraglider rescue is a sucking and dangerous job, but often done in Germany, Austria and Switzerland with helicopter. Nothing for a normal paramedic coming straight from the street into a rescue helicopter. If a operator is interested to do such missions it's very important to train the staff as good as possible.
Last edited by tecpilot; 12th Feb 2008 at 13:38.
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Sorry I've been gone so long, just been helping the paramedics try on their new immersion suits. Just something we're looking at....
Bertie - don't worry, I am giving up now. The facts are there for everybody to see, and they can make their own minds up if they are still interested. Crab reduced to personal insults tells its own story.
I just wish I was as important in this procedure as the Lord of The Winch seems to think I am instead of just being one of the drivers waiting for my winching course!
In fact, while I'm waitiing, I'll have to give Thomas a ring and find out about the performance of our aircraft. Incredible to believe that everybody would have gone to all this trouble without actually checking if the aircraft was suitable for purpose! Red faces all round then, typical of those backwoods civvy operators, eh?
Flaxton has left the thread
Bertie - don't worry, I am giving up now. The facts are there for everybody to see, and they can make their own minds up if they are still interested. Crab reduced to personal insults tells its own story.
I just wish I was as important in this procedure as the Lord of The Winch seems to think I am instead of just being one of the drivers waiting for my winching course!
In fact, while I'm waitiing, I'll have to give Thomas a ring and find out about the performance of our aircraft. Incredible to believe that everybody would have gone to all this trouble without actually checking if the aircraft was suitable for purpose! Red faces all round then, typical of those backwoods civvy operators, eh?
Flaxton has left the thread
Shall we just see where you are with this in a year's time and see where the red faces are then - there's none as blind as them as don't want to see.
Bertie, you should know better than to encourage this ill-advised activity.
Bertie, you should know better than to encourage this ill-advised activity.
Well, as it's reached the stage where Crab will take the carefully-selected (by Crab) word of a (non-902) mainly-police ex(sadly)- flier over that of a current 902 Air Amb operator - as backed by an ex-senior-Yellow Hatter - then yes Russell, I think it's reached its natural conclusion. Taking nowt away from TC and his considerable experience, but he rightly hedged his bets about the weight of other units' Air Ambulances.
FF - I've been chatting to your soon-to-arrive ex N Devon pilot, told him how much I enjoyed my all-too-few shifts in your part of the world. Long may you enjoy working with your excellent crews and the lightest 902 in PAS' fleet!
FF - I've been chatting to your soon-to-arrive ex N Devon pilot, told him how much I enjoyed my all-too-few shifts in your part of the world. Long may you enjoy working with your excellent crews and the lightest 902 in PAS' fleet!
Well maybe I am the lone voice in the wilderness and if I resort to personal insults it is as a result of frustration at trying to save people from themselves.
I do however know a thing or two about winching and it's hazards and if you think that sending a crew out to carry out winching operations when NONE of them have ANY experience other than a basic winching course (whether accredited by the CAA or not) is risky at best and downright foolhardy at worst.
If Bertie's outfit were using his experience to set something up like this I would at least have confidence that there was a mature, experienced operator ready to call a halt if it got silly but FF's outfit only seem to have him and it is the blind led by the partially sighted.
After 25 years plus of flying I have seen plenty of young pilots come up with great ideas, ignore the wisdom of the old and bold and then get bitten on the arse.....let's hope it doesn't happen to YAA.
I do however know a thing or two about winching and it's hazards and if you think that sending a crew out to carry out winching operations when NONE of them have ANY experience other than a basic winching course (whether accredited by the CAA or not) is risky at best and downright foolhardy at worst.
If Bertie's outfit were using his experience to set something up like this I would at least have confidence that there was a mature, experienced operator ready to call a halt if it got silly but FF's outfit only seem to have him and it is the blind led by the partially sighted.
After 25 years plus of flying I have seen plenty of young pilots come up with great ideas, ignore the wisdom of the old and bold and then get bitten on the arse.....let's hope it doesn't happen to YAA.
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...Let's hope it doesn't happen to YAA.
and maybe the unit in question don't need saving from themselves by you. Just an opinion of course.
There are no limits
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Crab
When I was Chief Pilot of a Police Helicopter Unit in England, I had sight of a document from MOD that said in summary:
Prepare for the day that no MOD assets are available for Military Aid to the Civil Power or Community.
That is why the far-sighted ES Aviation units are considering all possible options, including Night EMS Winching on NVG.
I take particular offence at your comment about enthusiastic amateurs. Having worked with all three Armed Forces and all three Emergency Services, I can assure you that the Fire, Police and Ambulance services can be far more capable and professional than you will ever be. Lets face it, you haven't moved on since the 1940's when the first downed airman was plucked from the sea with a winch equipped helicopter.
BTW, in your illustrious 25 year career in Military SAR (is that all you have done?) how many downed military aircrew have you rescued?
When I was Chief Pilot of a Police Helicopter Unit in England, I had sight of a document from MOD that said in summary:
Prepare for the day that no MOD assets are available for Military Aid to the Civil Power or Community.
That is why the far-sighted ES Aviation units are considering all possible options, including Night EMS Winching on NVG.
I take particular offence at your comment about enthusiastic amateurs. Having worked with all three Armed Forces and all three Emergency Services, I can assure you that the Fire, Police and Ambulance services can be far more capable and professional than you will ever be. Lets face it, you haven't moved on since the 1940's when the first downed airman was plucked from the sea with a winch equipped helicopter.
BTW, in your illustrious 25 year career in Military SAR (is that all you have done?) how many downed military aircrew have you rescued?
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whatlimits wrote "Having worked with all three Armed Forces and all three Emergency Services"
Taking nothing from what you say but how very ironic.
There are 7 emergency services and one of those.....the coastguard, yes a civi services, are the only other bunch of SAR folk in the UK who have those jolly big helicopters that HAVE winching capability.
Needless to say they work alongside crab (quite succesfully I feel) therefore for those who are making out he has issues with "civis"......I`m afraid I disagree.........
Unless told otherwise of course
Taking nothing from what you say but how very ironic.
There are 7 emergency services and one of those.....the coastguard, yes a civi services, are the only other bunch of SAR folk in the UK who have those jolly big helicopters that HAVE winching capability.
Needless to say they work alongside crab (quite succesfully I feel) therefore for those who are making out he has issues with "civis"......I`m afraid I disagree.........
Unless told otherwise of course
What Limits - if there is no MOD involvement then it will be civSAR doing the same job (see various SARH threads) .
However, what you suggest about providing the capability for the police and what YAA propose to do are miles apart.
The well meaning amateurs refers to FF who is going into this with no experience and what seems like little advice.
Minself - you are entitled to your opinion, as am I, but your interpretation of my motives is entirely incorrect.
However, what you suggest about providing the capability for the police and what YAA propose to do are miles apart.
The well meaning amateurs refers to FF who is going into this with no experience and what seems like little advice.
Minself - you are entitled to your opinion, as am I, but your interpretation of my motives is entirely incorrect.