Would you become a Professional Pilot again?
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I think the mountain rescue pilots who work the Alps have the best job in the business. Nothing beats the job satisfaction of rescue and it is helicopter work that requires the pilots to apply almost every helicopter skill there is. The pilots I have flown with in France and Switzerland (have yet to fly with an Italian pilot in the Alps) are some of the best all around helicopter pilots in the world and the most accomplished pilots I have ever been acquainted with.......and what about that scenery for an office?
Tourist pilot on the East Coast of Australia somewhere.
Flying a nice new machine, only on nice sunny days, only on weekday afternoons (or at a pinch from 11 am), taking only nice people over nice locations,
Earning $150k.
And six weeks leave. And a company car.
Can't believe nobody else mentioned it...
Flying a nice new machine, only on nice sunny days, only on weekday afternoons (or at a pinch from 11 am), taking only nice people over nice locations,
Earning $150k.
And six weeks leave. And a company car.
Can't believe nobody else mentioned it...
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Virgin, Green, Novice - Fool ?
Blimey, wish I'd found this forum months ago.
Need some advice guys and gals. I'm 39 and want to become a CPL(H). I have a class 1 medical booked for next week and hope to start flying in Sept (I have zero hours).
The '39' and the 'zero hours' are a bit of a git obviously, and the medical - well, I'll pass or I won't. The single advantage I do have is access to enough cash to get me through all the training to CPL(H).
I've read with interest the arguments for/against pilot shortages and frankly, my biggest concern is blowing 50 grand and ending up with no heli job (I can't live life as a Project Manager any more)
My general question is should I even bother to start training ? I'd appreciate some 'informed' comment rather than the blurb from flying schools.
(Also, anyone got any tips re. flying schools ? Currently looking at one based at Liverpool Airport).
Need some advice guys and gals. I'm 39 and want to become a CPL(H). I have a class 1 medical booked for next week and hope to start flying in Sept (I have zero hours).
The '39' and the 'zero hours' are a bit of a git obviously, and the medical - well, I'll pass or I won't. The single advantage I do have is access to enough cash to get me through all the training to CPL(H).
I've read with interest the arguments for/against pilot shortages and frankly, my biggest concern is blowing 50 grand and ending up with no heli job (I can't live life as a Project Manager any more)
My general question is should I even bother to start training ? I'd appreciate some 'informed' comment rather than the blurb from flying schools.
(Also, anyone got any tips re. flying schools ? Currently looking at one based at Liverpool Airport).
Join Date: Jul 2002
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This IS a serious suggestion
If your lifestyle/situation allows, go to Helicopter Adventures in FL, USA - your $50k will get you a LOT more training and fair-to-good opportunity to work after your training is complete.
The exchange rate, difference in fuel & aircraft cost, and shortened training duration will mean your travel costs and housing are essentially "free". If you do the JAA/FAA combo, you will have a FAA CFI(I) and a JAA CPL.
Of course, if you are unable to make such a drastic commitment...
...never mind!
(ps - this advice is from a 43-year-old 300-hour CFII)
The exchange rate, difference in fuel & aircraft cost, and shortened training duration will mean your travel costs and housing are essentially "free". If you do the JAA/FAA combo, you will have a FAA CFI(I) and a JAA CPL.
Of course, if you are unable to make such a drastic commitment...
...never mind!
(ps - this advice is from a 43-year-old 300-hour CFII)
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Thanks FlingWing. Errrrm, I'll have a look into it. Originally I was looking at doing it in NZ but then found out all the red tape re. license validity etc, which I still don't understand.
BTW, that\'s £50k not $50k. I\'ve done a lot of saving to get me out of this godawful job in the UK !!!!
One other general question - does flying involve a lot of mental arithmetic - fuel vs distance vs headwind - all that kind of thing, only I\'m a bit thick at Maths ....................... oo-er.
BTW, that\'s £50k not $50k. I\'ve done a lot of saving to get me out of this godawful job in the UK !!!!
One other general question - does flying involve a lot of mental arithmetic - fuel vs distance vs headwind - all that kind of thing, only I\'m a bit thick at Maths ....................... oo-er.
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Banjo, there's at least an even chance that when you start having to learn the maths, you'll find it quite a lot easier than you think - simply because now you can see what it's for. That's an enviable position to be in.
'Sir, what use is algebra', I keep getting asked at the school I teach in. I usually reply 'you'd be amazed'. Which is shorthand for 'b*ggered if I know'. It is difficult to think of a practical use for a lot of it. However, you'll only have to learn the stuff that does have a practical use.
'Sir, what use is algebra', I keep getting asked at the school I teach in. I usually reply 'you'd be amazed'. Which is shorthand for 'b*ggered if I know'. It is difficult to think of a practical use for a lot of it. However, you'll only have to learn the stuff that does have a practical use.
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Why don't you go to a reputable training organisation (and there are several near you) and take an initial flight? Then talk through the syllabus with them. Because - yes you do need mental arithmetic. You need to be able to do weight & balance calculations on the move, you need to know the maths of navigation and the science/maths of weather. And the physics of flight, and airframes, and, and, and.
Wish you lots of fun, some frights and some of those obstacles in life which make you wonder "Can I really do this ?"
Like - after about 7 hrs of training and you still can't hold a hover....and your fist is getting tighter on the cyclic...I've seen people weep. And then at about 10 hrs, they smile and wonder what all the fuss was about. They're holding it perfectly still with just finger and thumb.
All of which is nothing compared to your first auto.
Wish you lots of fun, some frights and some of those obstacles in life which make you wonder "Can I really do this ?"
Like - after about 7 hrs of training and you still can't hold a hover....and your fist is getting tighter on the cyclic...I've seen people weep. And then at about 10 hrs, they smile and wonder what all the fuss was about. They're holding it perfectly still with just finger and thumb.
All of which is nothing compared to your first auto.
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Ta HeadsetHair (great name)
Errrm, I have flown a copter twice so far, and a jet provost (aerobatics) and a glider. On all occasions I seem to have at least better than 'some' aptitude.
Sadly, I've always been a bit slow at the old Maths - I can do it but perhaps not quickly enough. Need to practise.
The Liverpool School appeared to be the best in the area - I did check 3 or 4 out. I tried Cabair a few years ago and they said quote :
'you're too old and it'll cost too much. You can't compete with ex-military for jobs'. Naturally I left, refreshed and not even slightly subdued ..............................
Anyhow, better not slate Cabair though at the time, I did indeed think they were doing me a favour.
Thanks to Hilico too - all good advice. Luckily the dynamics and science of flight interests me greatly so I\'ve got more than a laymans knowledge.
I really just wondered how \'involved\' the maths actually got when you\'re in the air - stuff like air density calculations and stuff got me a bit worried.
Right now, 300+ hours looks like a monster hill ...............
Errrm, I have flown a copter twice so far, and a jet provost (aerobatics) and a glider. On all occasions I seem to have at least better than 'some' aptitude.
Sadly, I've always been a bit slow at the old Maths - I can do it but perhaps not quickly enough. Need to practise.
The Liverpool School appeared to be the best in the area - I did check 3 or 4 out. I tried Cabair a few years ago and they said quote :
'you're too old and it'll cost too much. You can't compete with ex-military for jobs'. Naturally I left, refreshed and not even slightly subdued ..............................
Anyhow, better not slate Cabair though at the time, I did indeed think they were doing me a favour.
Thanks to Hilico too - all good advice. Luckily the dynamics and science of flight interests me greatly so I\'ve got more than a laymans knowledge.
I really just wondered how \'involved\' the maths actually got when you\'re in the air - stuff like air density calculations and stuff got me a bit worried.
Right now, 300+ hours looks like a monster hill ...............
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Banjo,
Did you try the schools at Blackpool i think the Liverpool school also has a site a Blackpool, You've also got Barton Manchester with Bill Bailey who's a very experienced pilot.
Did you try the schools at Blackpool i think the Liverpool school also has a site a Blackpool, You've also got Barton Manchester with Bill Bailey who's a very experienced pilot.
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Thanks Cyclic, yep, I tried Blackpool (Liverpool is an offshoot of that organisation), also Barton, and one in Leeds.
Leeds was a bit too far, and Barton only does up to PPL(H). Liverpool seemed to be the friendliest, best selection of machines too and no more hideous than any others in terms of price.
I'm told that an 'advantage' of Liverpool is that the school is located at the John Lennon airport, and therefore the flight protocols are much stricter 'cos of all the commercial traffic going in and out. Seems to make sense.
I'd probably consider the States too but I still need to support myself through training somehow. Anyone got any experience or advice re. going abroad ?
BTW thanks everyone, this is really helpful stuff. After several enquiries, one begins to disbelieve how genuine the flight schools are - still, they have to make money.
Leeds was a bit too far, and Barton only does up to PPL(H). Liverpool seemed to be the friendliest, best selection of machines too and no more hideous than any others in terms of price.
I'm told that an 'advantage' of Liverpool is that the school is located at the John Lennon airport, and therefore the flight protocols are much stricter 'cos of all the commercial traffic going in and out. Seems to make sense.
I'd probably consider the States too but I still need to support myself through training somehow. Anyone got any experience or advice re. going abroad ?
BTW thanks everyone, this is really helpful stuff. After several enquiries, one begins to disbelieve how genuine the flight schools are - still, they have to make money.
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Banjo Man,
have you tried reading this? designed for people in your situation.
Training Questions
written by many people who who actually been through training from scratch.
regards
CF
have you tried reading this? designed for people in your situation.
Training Questions
written by many people who who actually been through training from scratch.
regards
CF
Banjo,
Given that your £50k is worth about $80k, what Flingwing207 said about value holds even more true.
It would be a good idea to mull over what Cabair said, though. As a 200TT, 43 year old graduate of Cabair, I can concur. To put it in perspective I graduated at 39 with about 196 hours. I paid my money, got the licence and have hardly flown since. (Partly my own stoopid fault - I went and got myself married and hence nailed to the ground, weighted down with a mortgage
)
Once you've got your licence, you will be in competition with a lot of more experienced people, and/or with a lot of younger people and/or (possibly) a lot more mobile people (I'm using the term "a lot" relatively speaking here. There isn't "a lot" of anything to do with helicopters in the UK in absolute terms really!) (particularly jobs) So it certainly won't be easy.
Heading over to the States, getting the qualifications FW207 mentioned and, if you can, working there until you get your ATPL is definitely worth considering. You can then come back with the hours and the JAA quals and have a damned sight more chance at employment than others such as me.
Just read your last. In terms of how genuine flight schools are, you've got to give a bit of credence to what Cabair said - you walked through their door with fifty grand to give them and they said 'go away and think it over'. A lot of schools would have had your wallet out of your pocket as soon as they'd finished shaking hands !
Given that your £50k is worth about $80k, what Flingwing207 said about value holds even more true.
It would be a good idea to mull over what Cabair said, though. As a 200TT, 43 year old graduate of Cabair, I can concur. To put it in perspective I graduated at 39 with about 196 hours. I paid my money, got the licence and have hardly flown since. (Partly my own stoopid fault - I went and got myself married and hence nailed to the ground, weighted down with a mortgage
)Once you've got your licence, you will be in competition with a lot of more experienced people, and/or with a lot of younger people and/or (possibly) a lot more mobile people (I'm using the term "a lot" relatively speaking here. There isn't "a lot" of anything to do with helicopters in the UK in absolute terms really!) (particularly jobs) So it certainly won't be easy.
Heading over to the States, getting the qualifications FW207 mentioned and, if you can, working there until you get your ATPL is definitely worth considering. You can then come back with the hours and the JAA quals and have a damned sight more chance at employment than others such as me.
Just read your last. In terms of how genuine flight schools are, you've got to give a bit of credence to what Cabair said - you walked through their door with fifty grand to give them and they said 'go away and think it over'. A lot of schools would have had your wallet out of your pocket as soon as they'd finished shaking hands !
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Consider coming down here to South Africa if you want an instructor's job. We are nearly always short and there' s the game industry if you want to scare yourself now and then.
The airforce has about three pound fifty budget for this year so you don't have to worry too much about competition for a job.
It's pretty cheap to get your licence too although possibly better to get an FAA/UK licence first and transfer.
R22s are about R 2000 an hour here - less than 200 quid and hour and it's relatively cheap to live.
Not much going at the top end unless you join CHC and go fly in Africa but don't know what your end goal is...You could always get some hours and then go back to Europe if you wanted (although I don't think I ever would).
(36 year old 2000 hour ATP; also former Project Manager in UK)
The airforce has about three pound fifty budget for this year so you don't have to worry too much about competition for a job.
It's pretty cheap to get your licence too although possibly better to get an FAA/UK licence first and transfer.
R22s are about R 2000 an hour here - less than 200 quid and hour and it's relatively cheap to live.
Not much going at the top end unless you join CHC and go fly in Africa but don't know what your end goal is...You could always get some hours and then go back to Europe if you wanted (although I don't think I ever would).
(36 year old 2000 hour ATP; also former Project Manager in UK)
The Original Whirly
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Blackpool and Liverpool Helicentres are now run totally separately and are under different management. I don't know much about Blackpool, but Liverpool seemed well organised - they nearly gave me a job, but I spent too long actually getting my FI rating. Manchester Barton has Enstroms, an advantage or disadvantage, depending on your point of view, but more expensive than learning on an R22.
As for work, if you get 300 hours and an instructors rating, and like instructing, there's work around. You can hourbuild up to the 300 abroad, which won't cost as much as over here, and is loads of fun - I speak from experience. There's not a lot of work, and most of it is in the south of the country, so you'd need to be mobile. You won't make a fortune, but you can probably make a living. I'm older than you, only wanting to instruct part time as I have other work that I enjoy, but I could have got fulltime work, and age never came into it.
However, by the time you qualify, all of the above could change, for better or worse. This is not a reliable industry, never has been and never will be.
As for work, if you get 300 hours and an instructors rating, and like instructing, there's work around. You can hourbuild up to the 300 abroad, which won't cost as much as over here, and is loads of fun - I speak from experience. There's not a lot of work, and most of it is in the south of the country, so you'd need to be mobile. You won't make a fortune, but you can probably make a living. I'm older than you, only wanting to instruct part time as I have other work that I enjoy, but I could have got fulltime work, and age never came into it.
However, by the time you qualify, all of the above could change, for better or worse. This is not a reliable industry, never has been and never will be.
Having instructed at HAI in California (the good old days) and in two provinces in canada, I can only advise going ot Florida to HAI, or come to canada with your money, and build time with it. Like what's been said before, you can't beat the cost of living, and you'll literally get more bang for your buck (quid). Here in Canada it's 100 hours to commercial, but jobs are harder to find. However, it is easier to convert to a JAA license(ce) than the FAA should you only do that.
It took me a while to get going to, but now I'm a Chief FLight Instructor somewhere in Ontario!
It took me a while to get going to, but now I'm a Chief FLight Instructor somewhere in Ontario!
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I hope he doesn't mind, but it might be worth pm'ing vfrpilotpb, I know he is familiar with the area and the flying schools, and may have some good advise for you.
Worth a try, and good luck!!
Worth a try, and good luck!!
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its all very well going abroad and training at cheap rates,the problem will be getting a job back in the uk ,if thats your ambition.
Most of the uk jobs appear in my limited experience appear to be by word of mouth.
If you train in the uk (ppl at one place ,hourbuilding at another or overseas,cpl course different place and instructor course somewhere else )you will get to know the people and the industry who may give you some work.
i would have a lot more faith in someone i'd seen train in any of the above circumstances than a guy with a converted faa license who hasn't flown much in uk
just my thoughts
GOOD LUCK whatever you choose
Most of the uk jobs appear in my limited experience appear to be by word of mouth.
If you train in the uk (ppl at one place ,hourbuilding at another or overseas,cpl course different place and instructor course somewhere else )you will get to know the people and the industry who may give you some work.
i would have a lot more faith in someone i'd seen train in any of the above circumstances than a guy with a converted faa license who hasn't flown much in uk
just my thoughts
GOOD LUCK whatever you choose
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Guys,
thwock, Helieng, Winnie, Whirlybird, goaround7, Robbo Jock, Camp Freddie and all the rest, thanks very much for this advice.
To an extent, you are all confirming a lot of what I've already been told. Frankly, I'm amazed that the heli industry seems to be A. difficult to get into and B. potentially piss poor when you get in !!!! I'm guessing fixed wing ain't so bad.
My plan was to do the PPL(H) and see if I enjoyed it as much as I expected to, then decide whether to commit to going for CPL(H). The school I'm looking at have 'suggested' that at worst, they would be in a position to give me a trainers job at the end of CPL, even if the money is crap (I gather trainers earn maybe £15k pa ?).
I expect almost all of you have faced a similar decision - you get to a certain age and work is just crap and you think what do I REALLY want to do ? I'd be gutted blowing 50 grand on training and then going back to PM or something when Icould have used the cash to train as something else. Any of you lot ever considered fixed wing instead ?
(PS shooting at animals from a helicopter is a bit sick ain't it ?)
thwock, Helieng, Winnie, Whirlybird, goaround7, Robbo Jock, Camp Freddie and all the rest, thanks very much for this advice.
To an extent, you are all confirming a lot of what I've already been told. Frankly, I'm amazed that the heli industry seems to be A. difficult to get into and B. potentially piss poor when you get in !!!! I'm guessing fixed wing ain't so bad.
My plan was to do the PPL(H) and see if I enjoyed it as much as I expected to, then decide whether to commit to going for CPL(H). The school I'm looking at have 'suggested' that at worst, they would be in a position to give me a trainers job at the end of CPL, even if the money is crap (I gather trainers earn maybe £15k pa ?).
I expect almost all of you have faced a similar decision - you get to a certain age and work is just crap and you think what do I REALLY want to do ? I'd be gutted blowing 50 grand on training and then going back to PM or something when Icould have used the cash to train as something else. Any of you lot ever considered fixed wing instead ?
(PS shooting at animals from a helicopter is a bit sick ain't it ?)
The Original Whirly
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Banjo George,
Firstly, take "suggestions" from schools that they'll give you a job when you finish with a pinch of salt. They may, and who you know makes a lot of difference in this industry. But they tell a lot of people that, and it'll depend on how things are when you qualify...it may not happen; don't rely on it. Schools can't give all their students jobs, but they can get them in by implying they can.
I started off flying fixed wing. I only ever planned on doing any flying at all for fun. I went for a trial helicopter lesson for something different to do, and got totally hooked the moment I managed to hover for a few seconds. I got my PPL(H), and then couldn't bear the thought of only flying occasionally and never really getting any better. I figured if I felt that way there were only two options, since I had the cash (from a windfall, not a regenerating money tree) - do lots of flying and have nothing to show for it, or structure that flying, pass lots of exams, and maybe eventually get paid to fly. It's sort of worked, though I'll never recoup what I paid out - but that wasn't the plan. Whatever happens, I'll never regret it; it's been great - though very hard and absolute hell at times. I still fly f/w now and then, just a C150 I have a share in. By comparison with helicopters it doesn't grab me really, but it's a fun social activity, and I like touring by air. Have I ever considered it as a career? No, but if you can get an airline job (rumours of a shortage soon, but don't know if it's true) it's probably a more "sensible" option.
Not a choice anyone else can make for you. Why not get your PPL(H) and then see. You could always do that, fly helicopters for fun, and spend the rest of the cash on something else. But you might have a better idea of what you really want to do when you've done that much flying.
Firstly, take "suggestions" from schools that they'll give you a job when you finish with a pinch of salt. They may, and who you know makes a lot of difference in this industry. But they tell a lot of people that, and it'll depend on how things are when you qualify...it may not happen; don't rely on it. Schools can't give all their students jobs, but they can get them in by implying they can.
I started off flying fixed wing. I only ever planned on doing any flying at all for fun. I went for a trial helicopter lesson for something different to do, and got totally hooked the moment I managed to hover for a few seconds. I got my PPL(H), and then couldn't bear the thought of only flying occasionally and never really getting any better. I figured if I felt that way there were only two options, since I had the cash (from a windfall, not a regenerating money tree) - do lots of flying and have nothing to show for it, or structure that flying, pass lots of exams, and maybe eventually get paid to fly. It's sort of worked, though I'll never recoup what I paid out - but that wasn't the plan. Whatever happens, I'll never regret it; it's been great - though very hard and absolute hell at times. I still fly f/w now and then, just a C150 I have a share in. By comparison with helicopters it doesn't grab me really, but it's a fun social activity, and I like touring by air. Have I ever considered it as a career? No, but if you can get an airline job (rumours of a shortage soon, but don't know if it's true) it's probably a more "sensible" option.
Not a choice anyone else can make for you. Why not get your PPL(H) and then see. You could always do that, fly helicopters for fun, and spend the rest of the cash on something else. But you might have a better idea of what you really want to do when you've done that much flying.