The scene is set - incl Low Flying rules and Is there a 'cultural divide'?
Avoid imitations
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In my case, a landing for a drink at a pub wouldn't outweigh the dubious pleasure of a court appearance at the request of the CAA legal department.
I therefore always ask permission first, especially as my job depends on keeping my licence.
I therefore always ask permission first, especially as my job depends on keeping my licence.
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Shyt
Are you seriously suggesting that we can only land somewhere someone else has landed before???
Its normal practice for me to land in places that an aircraft has never knowingly landed before. I have loads of them in my log book. Thats why I bought a helicopter.
Are you seriously suggesting that we can only land somewhere someone else has landed before???
Its normal practice for me to land in places that an aircraft has never knowingly landed before. I have loads of them in my log book. Thats why I bought a helicopter.
Why ever would one consider landing at a pub or restaurant to be other than a normal practice? Perhaps I am abnormal by that standard. (Whirls don't start!)
I have to agree with whoever suggested it must be a "British" thing to query every action of fellow pilots vice just letting them get on with their life and leave the complaining to someone that was "harmed".
Joe Bloggs landing his helicopter at a country pub certainly falls under the catagory of "nuttin to do wit me Mate!".
I have to agree with whoever suggested it must be a "British" thing to query every action of fellow pilots vice just letting them get on with their life and leave the complaining to someone that was "harmed".
Joe Bloggs landing his helicopter at a country pub certainly falls under the catagory of "nuttin to do wit me Mate!".
Hovering AND talking
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My interpretation of other comments is that "normal aviation practice" involves asking permission first.
It's not that you should not land at a pub, hotel but that you should ask (assuming, of course, that we are within the bounds of Rule 5). Seems to be the courteous and sensible thing to do. After all, you wouldn't want to frighten the horses.
Cheers
Whirls
It's not that you should not land at a pub, hotel but that you should ask (assuming, of course, that we are within the bounds of Rule 5). Seems to be the courteous and sensible thing to do. After all, you wouldn't want to frighten the horses.
Cheers
Whirls
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Originally Posted by Gaseous
Shyt
Are you seriously suggesting that we can only land somewhere someone else has landed before???
Its normal practice for me to land in places that an aircraft has never knowingly landed before. I have loads of them in my log book. Thats why I bought a helicopter.
Are you seriously suggesting that we can only land somewhere someone else has landed before???
Its normal practice for me to land in places that an aircraft has never knowingly landed before. I have loads of them in my log book. Thats why I bought a helicopter.
If I had a piece of land on the edge of a village, I would feel quite aggrieved if someone just landed in it because he fancied a drink at the pub next door, especially if my car risked gravel rash because of it. I would feel the same if someone pitched up and parked his car on my drive! Wouldn't you? If not, just post the grid ref.
I'm surprised anyone would think a helicopter is any different. Even at a hotel with a helipad, I wouldn't dream of landing without obtaining advance permission.
Avoid imitations
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If merely passing comment means a frenzy.... Yawn... 
Sorry, just off to frenziedly eat my beans on toast and drink a Newcastle Brown.... expect more hot air later
Sorry, just off to frenziedly eat my beans on toast and drink a Newcastle Brown.... expect more hot air later
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S
I agree totally about obtaining permission and it is good manners and good airmanship to do it, but we have established in this thread it is not a legal requirement so how can the CAA have a case if you dont? See FLs earlier post.
I agree totally about obtaining permission and it is good manners and good airmanship to do it, but we have established in this thread it is not a legal requirement so how can the CAA have a case if you dont? See FLs earlier post.
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My understanding of this scenario (though maybe not this particular case) is that there is, within Rule 5 the rule about helicopters maneouvring within 60m of people, structures etc, and the permission.
With respect to permission, although the CAA may not have a case, the landowner might especially if damage is caused.
Cheers
Whirls
With respect to permission, although the CAA may not have a case, the landowner might especially if damage is caused.
Cheers
Whirls
I can recall landing a Red, White, and Blue Sikorsky at more than a few pubs in my past.....usually crying about the terrible weather and the lack of quality weather reporting as I headed to the bar to buy the crewman a pint. Funny how they all seemed to be very nice pubs and none complained about the mode of our transport or attire. Mind you the muskox rubberized canvas coveralls were a bit tacky and warm.
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Whirly, No, Rule 5(i) only applies in a licenced or government aerodrome. The more general 5.3 (a)2 applies outside congested areas. ie exempt the 500 ft rule. The only 'advice' I know, is on the BHAB site which says "a flat area of ground about the size of two tennis courts should be adequate to take the smaller types" and to all intents and purposes you should keep at least a blade length from buildings.
edit to agree with Cpt Jim below
dead horse well flogged.
edit to agree with Cpt Jim below
dead horse well flogged.
Last edited by Gaseous; 31st Jul 2006 at 20:29.
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Originally Posted by Gaseous
S
I agree totally about obtaining permission and it is good manners and good airmanship to do it, but we have established in this thread it is not a legal requirement so how can the CAA have a case if you dont? See FLs earlier post.
I agree totally about obtaining permission and it is good manners and good airmanship to do it, but we have established in this thread it is not a legal requirement so how can the CAA have a case if you dont? See FLs earlier post.
BTW, I did once receive a strongly worded warning letter from the CAA Head of Legalese, following a complaint from a member of the public about our helicopter taking off and landing at our normal helipad. At the time I was the chief pilot of a UK police air support unit and was exempt from Rule 5 in any case. If someone complains, you will probably be investigated. These days, I prefer to take my days off at home
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Guys (and Gals),
The term 'Flogging a dead horse' springs to mind here!!
I think we can agree that we have established it is common courtesy to call the land owner, when possible!!
Now let's go back to the thing we love most, i.e. flying helicopters, those of us that are real pilots and not armchair ones!
Royston, next time I'm in the area the first round is on me....Lemonade of course!!
Cpt Jim
The term 'Flogging a dead horse' springs to mind here!!
I think we can agree that we have established it is common courtesy to call the land owner, when possible!!
Now let's go back to the thing we love most, i.e. flying helicopters, those of us that are real pilots and not armchair ones!
Royston, next time I'm in the area the first round is on me....Lemonade of course!!
Cpt Jim
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Well I for one would be most happy if I had a bit of land somewhere and somebody just "pitched up" and landed in it, I've been flying years and I have never met anybody yet who has not been pleased to see a helicopter land.
Most people in my experience are fasinated by it, have any of you guys ever landed with a problem a poss warning light on, low on fuel, unexpected bad weather etc, what has been the reception, not that it is a regular occurance for me, but I've always been made more than welcome, in some cases treated like some sort of celebrity.
The only time I've ever had serious trouble was when I landed with complete electrical failure in a gliding site short of Bath (without asking first) and after stopping them trying to lynch me and calming every body down I explained to them that we were all fellow flyers whether in powered machines or not and that I need their assistance every thing was fine.
I think it is a total different thing asking for PPR in an airfield the reason being is that they have loads of machines arriving or departing (unless its Pembrey) lets be fair if its not in a bulit up area, with plenty of open space and no horses or people running around then whats the problem ? there is hardly going to be a queue of R22's lining up to land !!!! Chill out Guy's !!!
Most people in my experience are fasinated by it, have any of you guys ever landed with a problem a poss warning light on, low on fuel, unexpected bad weather etc, what has been the reception, not that it is a regular occurance for me, but I've always been made more than welcome, in some cases treated like some sort of celebrity.
The only time I've ever had serious trouble was when I landed with complete electrical failure in a gliding site short of Bath (without asking first) and after stopping them trying to lynch me and calming every body down I explained to them that we were all fellow flyers whether in powered machines or not and that I need their assistance every thing was fine.
I think it is a total different thing asking for PPR in an airfield the reason being is that they have loads of machines arriving or departing (unless its Pembrey) lets be fair if its not in a bulit up area, with plenty of open space and no horses or people running around then whats the problem ? there is hardly going to be a queue of R22's lining up to land !!!! Chill out Guy's !!!
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To quote the alternative viewpoint, an RAF squadron colleague of mine once landed a Puma in a farmer's field because that is where he was directed to land during a military exercise. Even before he had shut down his aircraft was attacked by the landowner who tried to drive the front blade of his large excavator into the turning rotor disc.
I once made a precautionary landing in a field in Wales because of dense smoke from a burning TRU coming from the aircraft electrics bay. We shut down in very short order only to be told a minute later by the landowner, in very terse terms, that we were very unwelcome to remain there.
Sorry to disappoint but not everyone shares our enthusiasm for helicopters.
I once made a precautionary landing in a field in Wales because of dense smoke from a burning TRU coming from the aircraft electrics bay. We shut down in very short order only to be told a minute later by the landowner, in very terse terms, that we were very unwelcome to remain there.
Sorry to disappoint but not everyone shares our enthusiasm for helicopters.
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Shy Torque I can understand what your saying and I do agree, but youve most probably been flying for years and youve only got 1 incident and your mate in the forces the same, but I still think that if your a civillian heli and your polite and courteous then the chances youl get a problem are slim.
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Royston & Whirlygig
The 60 metres proviso in Rule 5(3)(i) doesn’t apply to helicopters landing and taking off. (Whirlygig – see the Note at the end of your link.)
Royston & Bravo73
It’s Rule 5 of the Rules of the Air, not the ANO.
Bravo73
Whether or not the site is licensed is irrelevant to Rule 5(3)(a)(ii).
Royston didn’t land in a car park full of cars. I’m puzzled why you’ve brought up again an allegation which has turned out to be false.
IMHO it would be an odd (and unfair) state of affairs if a pilot found himself in breach of Rule 5 by failing to obtain prior consent from a land-owner if there’s no legal requirement that he must do so.
That said, it’s the sort of argument which the CAA might advance. Given that the CAA writes the regulations (which then pass formally through Parliament without any consideration of the necessity for a particular rule or the form in which it’s written), if it thinks prior permission should be a legal requirement, it should be included in the Regulations IMHO - so that the position is clear.
ShyTorque
"It was the only time a helicopter has landed at the property.
So it appears the landing was NOT in accordance with normal aviation practice.”
I disagree.
I was going to make the same point as Gaseous until I saw you withdrew it in response to his question.
I entirely agree pilots should ask for permission to land, for the reasons you give and as a matter of courtesy.
Re someone’s helicopter in your drive. I’d be very angry if someone parked their car in my drive without permission, but they wouldn’t have committed a criminal offence.
Nikkyg v
Some people, not everybody.
Rotorvision98
I hope your post was a joke in bad taste rather than fact.
If it’s a fact, it’s a sad day for the Rotorheads forum IMHO.
Tailboom
You're probably right that the chances of a civilian helicopter pilot who's polite and courteous encountering a problem are slim, but there's no shortage of people even inside the UK aviation world who seem to get pleasure from causing trouble for others. Couple that with the fact that the CAA isn't above prosecuting trivia and it's not worth taking a chance.
FL
The 60 metres proviso in Rule 5(3)(i) doesn’t apply to helicopters landing and taking off. (Whirlygig – see the Note at the end of your link.)
Royston & Bravo73
It’s Rule 5 of the Rules of the Air, not the ANO.
Bravo73
Whether or not the site is licensed is irrelevant to Rule 5(3)(a)(ii).
Royston didn’t land in a car park full of cars. I’m puzzled why you’ve brought up again an allegation which has turned out to be false.
IMHO it would be an odd (and unfair) state of affairs if a pilot found himself in breach of Rule 5 by failing to obtain prior consent from a land-owner if there’s no legal requirement that he must do so.
That said, it’s the sort of argument which the CAA might advance. Given that the CAA writes the regulations (which then pass formally through Parliament without any consideration of the necessity for a particular rule or the form in which it’s written), if it thinks prior permission should be a legal requirement, it should be included in the Regulations IMHO - so that the position is clear.
ShyTorque
"It was the only time a helicopter has landed at the property.
So it appears the landing was NOT in accordance with normal aviation practice.”
I disagree.
I was going to make the same point as Gaseous until I saw you withdrew it in response to his question.
I entirely agree pilots should ask for permission to land, for the reasons you give and as a matter of courtesy.
Re someone’s helicopter in your drive. I’d be very angry if someone parked their car in my drive without permission, but they wouldn’t have committed a criminal offence.
Nikkyg v
Some people, not everybody.
Rotorvision98
I hope your post was a joke in bad taste rather than fact.
If it’s a fact, it’s a sad day for the Rotorheads forum IMHO.
Tailboom
You're probably right that the chances of a civilian helicopter pilot who's polite and courteous encountering a problem are slim, but there's no shortage of people even inside the UK aviation world who seem to get pleasure from causing trouble for others. Couple that with the fact that the CAA isn't above prosecuting trivia and it's not worth taking a chance.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 31st Jul 2006 at 21:23.
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the scene is set
Hi Rotorvision98
i dont think you are being fair in making this personal,you mentioned that i have my hair dyed,whilst this is true i have to tell you that the experiece leading up to this dyeing siuation has left be a lot poorer as well as completely and utterly devastated, let me explain,i was only 53 and was going prematurely grey,as a direct result of the grey hair my wife of 36 years (at the time) had been progressively going "off" my sex life had dropped to zero and ny cofidence was on the floor,in order to put things right a flying instructor,who shall remain nameless (his name rhymes with pill) suggested that i use a hair colourant in order that i go "back to black" and try to resore my sex life and my self esteem,so i purchased a bottle of medium brown "just for men" i had'nt done this before,so i donned the rubber gloves and began to vigourously massage it into my scalp,this was a big big big mistake,if any of you out there are familiar with the term,"a fine mist" then you will know what happened next!
Before i took the decision to rectify my confidence, we had two white cats and a white budgie,i honestly and truthfully did not realise that this dye mixture was permanent, when i realised what had happend i ran like the wind upstairs to get some old towels in order to try to get the cats back to some sort of white,before anyone asks i did'nt touch the budgie,in my haste to get things sorted before the wife returned i just did not realise (again) that this stuff was running down my back and down my chest,when i did realise i went frantic,because it was dripping and spraying onto:the hall carpet,the stair carpet, the downstairs bathroom wallpaper, the hall wallpaper, it even stained all of the paintwork on the stairs,by this time i was in a right state,
i was panic striken,i did;nt know what to do,where to look,i could only picture my wife face when she would see the damage (she looks a litte bit like jack palance), suddenly and without warning i heard------------- her key in the door,i wwwaass
fffrozen to the spot,she took one look at the utter chaos and carnage, her face contortad with theabsolute rage of a prgnant brontesawerous with piles and she!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so you see i have already gone through the pain barrier about my hair,so play fair and stop getting personal!!!
i dont think you are being fair in making this personal,you mentioned that i have my hair dyed,whilst this is true i have to tell you that the experiece leading up to this dyeing siuation has left be a lot poorer as well as completely and utterly devastated, let me explain,i was only 53 and was going prematurely grey,as a direct result of the grey hair my wife of 36 years (at the time) had been progressively going "off" my sex life had dropped to zero and ny cofidence was on the floor,in order to put things right a flying instructor,who shall remain nameless (his name rhymes with pill) suggested that i use a hair colourant in order that i go "back to black" and try to resore my sex life and my self esteem,so i purchased a bottle of medium brown "just for men" i had'nt done this before,so i donned the rubber gloves and began to vigourously massage it into my scalp,this was a big big big mistake,if any of you out there are familiar with the term,"a fine mist" then you will know what happened next!
Before i took the decision to rectify my confidence, we had two white cats and a white budgie,i honestly and truthfully did not realise that this dye mixture was permanent, when i realised what had happend i ran like the wind upstairs to get some old towels in order to try to get the cats back to some sort of white,before anyone asks i did'nt touch the budgie,in my haste to get things sorted before the wife returned i just did not realise (again) that this stuff was running down my back and down my chest,when i did realise i went frantic,because it was dripping and spraying onto:the hall carpet,the stair carpet, the downstairs bathroom wallpaper, the hall wallpaper, it even stained all of the paintwork on the stairs,by this time i was in a right state,
i was panic striken,i did;nt know what to do,where to look,i could only picture my wife face when she would see the damage (she looks a litte bit like jack palance), suddenly and without warning i heard------------- her key in the door,i wwwaass
fffrozen to the spot,she took one look at the utter chaos and carnage, her face contortad with theabsolute rage of a prgnant brontesawerous with piles and she!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so you see i have already gone through the pain barrier about my hair,so play fair and stop getting personal!!!
