The scene is set - incl Low Flying rules and Is there a 'cultural divide'?
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I have a 'proper' breath tester. The limit is 20mg/100ml. I did some tests when not flying. I weigh 168 lbs. 1/2 pint of Tim Taylors Landlord leaves me just under the limit 20 minutes after drinking it. 1 pint results in over the limit. Even 1/2 a pint is too close to the limit to risk from the legal point of view. The consequences of a positive test are dire. We all know the other risks.
edit
posted for information. Not a snipe at royston. Enjoy your flights to the pub, mate. I do, and in case the Pprune police are watching next time I land, the pint is for Mrs G. The soft drink is for me. OK?
edit
posted for information. Not a snipe at royston. Enjoy your flights to the pub, mate. I do, and in case the Pprune police are watching next time I land, the pint is for Mrs G. The soft drink is for me. OK?
Last edited by Gaseous; 30th Jul 2006 at 00:11.
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the scene is set
Hi Gaseous,
thank you for that information,i didnt realise there were so many people out there acting as police officer'S and Undercover agents for the CAA.
thank you for that information,i didnt realise there were so many people out there acting as police officer'S and Undercover agents for the CAA.
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I also often visit pubs by helicopter. An offer to the landlord to get his camera and come for a ride to take some aerial pics of his pub is all that is ever required as a landing fee.
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RIP
Can we now stop persecuting royston, all those sad people who are too busy looking at everything everybody else does go and get a life, and finally lay this thread to rest over a sandwich and a glass of lemonade 
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By coincidence, I spent the weekend in Wales and, as The Hardwick is an easy 20 mile drive from the house, went there for Sunday lunch and looked at the scene of the event described by TOT - or non-event, depending upon your point of view.
Setting the Scene?
I can’t help wondering if TOT was there when the Robbie landed - or has ever been there.
“the pub is on the edge of the A40 main road”
No, it’s not.
It’s at the side of a B road - the B4598.
It was the main road many years ago – until the A40 dual-carriageway was built.
“the village pub”
It's not in a village.
It’s in the middle of the countryside, surrounded by farm land.
It was a run down pub until last year when the present owner bought it and turned it into a restaurant. There's a small bar, but it's certainly not a ‘village pub’.
Multimap link: http://uk.multimap.com/p/browse.cgi?pc=NP79AA
In Map view, it’s just below the red circle where a winding lane emerges from the direction of the A40.
If you switch to Aerial view, the red circle is immediately next to the restaurant.
“Along comes a shiny yellow Robinson R22, Lands in a small car parking space ALONG SIDE side the cars”
Not according to the owner.
He says the helicopter landed on the grass.
The grass area is adjacent to the car park at the side of the property.
No-one showed or expressed any concern. Everyone seemed to enjoy seeing it, “it added a bit of interest.”
I didn’t ask what Royston drank – partly because I wouldn’t expect the owner to know or tell me even if he did and partly because Royston has already said it was non-alcoholic.
It was the only time a helicopter has landed at the property. The owner wasn’t asked for permission in advance but it didn’t cause any problems so wasn’t bothered.
He would prefer to be asked.
Various legal points raised:
Land-owner's Consent
I haven’t actually looked it up but I can’t remember seeing any law which requires a pilot to obtain a land-owner’s consent before landing.
It’s obviously good practice, but that’s a different matter.
Rule 5
I haven’t seen anything, either in this discussion or at the location, which suggests a breach of Rule 5.
Trespass
The commonly seen signs warning that "Trespassers will be Prosecuted" are virtually meaningless. Simply going onto someone’s land without permission is not a criminal offence.
There are certain specified circumstances where trespassing is a criminal offence. eg Trespassing on railway lines, on some military property, trespassing with intention of residing on the property or with the intention of disrupting lawful activity on the property.
A land-owner may have grounds for a civil claim against you for trespass but, unless you damage the land by (eg crops) any damages would be nominal.
The risk of being sued is remote provided you don’t cause any damage.
I wonder what it is about the British mentality which makes us so quick to criticise other pilots and claim they've flown illegally.
The Restaurant
Owned and run by chef Stephen Terry and his wife Joanne. He worked at a number of top London restaurants before moving to Wales and (I think) earned a Michelin star for another restaurant in the area before setting up the Hardwick.
Food: Outstanding. Imaginative dishes cooked to perfection.
Wine: Good range at sensible prices.
Service: Perfect. Friendly and efficient.
Décor: ‘Country pub’. No fancy trimmings – but you’re not paying fancy prices.
Location: In the beautiful Usk valley just outside Abergavenny.
Cost: Average £30-35 head for 3 courses with wine. (Main courses £10-17) Good VFM given the quality.
FL Rating:
Highly recommended - by road or air.
The grass area is fairly tight – not suitable for for an inexperienced pilot IMHO (as Royston says above.)
I didn’t look for it but apparently there’s a small airstrip the other side of the road.
FL
Setting the Scene?
I can’t help wondering if TOT was there when the Robbie landed - or has ever been there.
“the pub is on the edge of the A40 main road”
No, it’s not.
It’s at the side of a B road - the B4598.
It was the main road many years ago – until the A40 dual-carriageway was built.
“the village pub”
It's not in a village.
It’s in the middle of the countryside, surrounded by farm land.
It was a run down pub until last year when the present owner bought it and turned it into a restaurant. There's a small bar, but it's certainly not a ‘village pub’.
Multimap link: http://uk.multimap.com/p/browse.cgi?pc=NP79AA
In Map view, it’s just below the red circle where a winding lane emerges from the direction of the A40.
If you switch to Aerial view, the red circle is immediately next to the restaurant.
“Along comes a shiny yellow Robinson R22, Lands in a small car parking space ALONG SIDE side the cars”
Not according to the owner.
He says the helicopter landed on the grass.
The grass area is adjacent to the car park at the side of the property.
No-one showed or expressed any concern. Everyone seemed to enjoy seeing it, “it added a bit of interest.”
I didn’t ask what Royston drank – partly because I wouldn’t expect the owner to know or tell me even if he did and partly because Royston has already said it was non-alcoholic.
It was the only time a helicopter has landed at the property. The owner wasn’t asked for permission in advance but it didn’t cause any problems so wasn’t bothered.
He would prefer to be asked.
Various legal points raised:
Land-owner's Consent
I haven’t actually looked it up but I can’t remember seeing any law which requires a pilot to obtain a land-owner’s consent before landing.
It’s obviously good practice, but that’s a different matter.
Rule 5
I haven’t seen anything, either in this discussion or at the location, which suggests a breach of Rule 5.
Trespass
The commonly seen signs warning that "Trespassers will be Prosecuted" are virtually meaningless. Simply going onto someone’s land without permission is not a criminal offence.
There are certain specified circumstances where trespassing is a criminal offence. eg Trespassing on railway lines, on some military property, trespassing with intention of residing on the property or with the intention of disrupting lawful activity on the property.
A land-owner may have grounds for a civil claim against you for trespass but, unless you damage the land by (eg crops) any damages would be nominal.
The risk of being sued is remote provided you don’t cause any damage.
I wonder what it is about the British mentality which makes us so quick to criticise other pilots and claim they've flown illegally.
The Restaurant
Owned and run by chef Stephen Terry and his wife Joanne. He worked at a number of top London restaurants before moving to Wales and (I think) earned a Michelin star for another restaurant in the area before setting up the Hardwick.
Food: Outstanding. Imaginative dishes cooked to perfection.
Wine: Good range at sensible prices.
Service: Perfect. Friendly and efficient.
Décor: ‘Country pub’. No fancy trimmings – but you’re not paying fancy prices.
Location: In the beautiful Usk valley just outside Abergavenny.
Cost: Average £30-35 head for 3 courses with wine. (Main courses £10-17) Good VFM given the quality.
FL Rating:
Highly recommended - by road or air.
The grass area is fairly tight – not suitable for for an inexperienced pilot IMHO (as Royston says above.)
I didn’t look for it but apparently there’s a small airstrip the other side of the road.
FL
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 31st Jul 2006 at 15:48.
Drinking and Flying....oh...never dear boy! Anyone ever eaten lunch in the Agusta staff mess in Italy? Wine with pasta....then back to the hangar. Granted it is a small bottle but still....alcohol and flying?
Guilty yer honour!
Guilty yer honour!
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Originally Posted by royston
Rule 5 of the ANO does not and cannot apply whilst taking off or landing! In any case there are quite different rules that for choppers.
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God lad Roystone, blimey thatīs whats heli flying is about.
And i for one think u made a good call. Flying bad/ruff weather will make u tired, tired peopel make mistakes. Great call to land and get fresh again, thatīs a safe pilot in my eyes.
Think some peopel here have been watching "days of our lives" to mutch, not everything containes a intrige.
Yes correct peopel that does things wrong and incorrect, so they get better and wiser pilots.
But donīt beat on peopel just of the fact that u didenīt like one thing.
"sorry for crappy spelling"
And i for one think u made a good call. Flying bad/ruff weather will make u tired, tired peopel make mistakes. Great call to land and get fresh again, thatīs a safe pilot in my eyes.
Think some peopel here have been watching "days of our lives" to mutch, not everything containes a intrige.
Yes correct peopel that does things wrong and incorrect, so they get better and wiser pilots.
But donīt beat on peopel just of the fact that u didenīt like one thing.
"sorry for crappy spelling"
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hi it clearly says for example that, and i quote (any helicopter shall be exempt from the land clear rule.It also says "a helicopter shall be exempt from the 500' rule when conducting manoeuvres in accordance with normal aviation practices and the helicopter must not be operated closer that 60 metres to persons vehicless vessels objects or structures,unless when taking off or landing in other words this is an exemtion for manoeuvering helicopters,and of course a helicopter has to manoeuver (hover taxi) when the landing phase is complete,without this exemption we could never land,imagine that!!!!!!!!!!
Hovering AND talking
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http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/Rule%2...il%202005a.pdf
Technically, with respect the maneouvring rule, Rule 5 does state within a licensed or Government aerodrome or with permission of the CAA and must not be operated neared than 60 metres (about 200 ft in old money) to people etc.
Cheers
Whirls
Technically, with respect the maneouvring rule, Rule 5 does state within a licensed or Government aerodrome or with permission of the CAA and must not be operated neared than 60 metres (about 200 ft in old money) to people etc.
Cheers
Whirls
royston,
If you are going to try and argue your case by refering to the ANO, I suggest that you quote the correct section, in it's entirety.
Rule 5, (3), (a), (ii) Exemptions from the low flying prohibitions states:
Any aircraft shall be exempt from the 500 feet rule when landing and taking-off in accordance with normal aviation practice. (My emphasis).
Now then, arriving unannounced at a non-licenced site (without the landowner's permission) and allegedly landing in a car park (which was full of cars at the time) is hardly 'in accordance with normal aviation practice', is it?
If you are going to try and argue your case by refering to the ANO, I suggest that you quote the correct section, in it's entirety.
Rule 5, (3), (a), (ii) Exemptions from the low flying prohibitions states:
Any aircraft shall be exempt from the 500 feet rule when landing and taking-off in accordance with normal aviation practice. (My emphasis).
Now then, arriving unannounced at a non-licenced site (without the landowner's permission) and allegedly landing in a car park (which was full of cars at the time) is hardly 'in accordance with normal aviation practice', is it?
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the scene is set
Bravo 73, are you unable to understand the evidence from the flying flying lawyer,he has visited the pub and has had confirmed my version of events,which proves that no laws or rules were broken.
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the scene is set
Thanks to the flying Lawyer for taking the time and the trouble to visit the site of the "Village" pub, i am pleased that you liked the restaurant,and am relieved that the Landord explained the true events of the day that i landed.
I would urge all you budding adventures to fly to this restaurant and try the food,there is a field right next to the pub that is owned by the landord (dont try it in a cessna!!!)the welcome would be warm,and the food delicious, but i would remind you it would be Courteous to ring first!!!!!01873854220
I would urge all you budding adventures to fly to this restaurant and try the food,there is a field right next to the pub that is owned by the landord (dont try it in a cessna!!!)the welcome would be warm,and the food delicious, but i would remind you it would be Courteous to ring first!!!!!01873854220
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"It was the only time a helicopter has landed at the property."
So it appears the landing was NOT in accordance with normal aviation practice. That is the dodgy part. Always best to ask landing permission first because if the landowner owner complains, the CAA might well have a case to follow up.
So it appears the landing was NOT in accordance with normal aviation practice. That is the dodgy part. Always best to ask landing permission first because if the landowner owner complains, the CAA might well have a case to follow up.
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It might be the case that nobody had landed there whilst this landlord has been there, but who knows about the previous 30 years !
I know its good practice to ask first if you can visit but some times its not possible, surely if its only now and again you land without permission your chances of getting into any sort of trouble are very low and are far outweighed by the pleasure of the experience
I know its good practice to ask first if you can visit but some times its not possible, surely if its only now and again you land without permission your chances of getting into any sort of trouble are very low and are far outweighed by the pleasure of the experience
Hovering AND talking
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Of course, the passenger could always a mobile phone to ring ahead! 
Cheers
Whirls
....pass that tin hat would you please love!
Cheers
Whirls
....pass that tin hat would you please love!