Robinson R44
Le Singe
Wouldn't worry about not being able to see - happens all the time with me. I just flick on the 44's auto pilot and then climb in the back for a cheeky nap, or perhaps read a chapter or two of my POH until the heater gets the screen defrosted. You should try it
TTB
Wouldn't worry about not being able to see - happens all the time with me. I just flick on the 44's auto pilot and then climb in the back for a cheeky nap, or perhaps read a chapter or two of my POH until the heater gets the screen defrosted. You should try it
TTB
Join Date: Nov 2001
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This thread should be renamed to "Joke of the day" 
Ohhh, this reminds me. "Le Singe. Do you know what goes through a Bee's mind when it hits your windshield? It arse... !"
Might happen to you if you hit something as strong and fast.
Ohhh, this reminds me. "Le Singe. Do you know what goes through a Bee's mind when it hits your windshield? It arse... !"
Might happen to you if you hit something as strong and fast.
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It seemed to happen when I flew through some clouds and gave me a bit of a scare because I couldnt see properly for quite a while
Don't bite chaps - it is a wind-up - Le Singe (French for monkey) is the same guy who posted here about bumbling around the helilanes and lots of people rose to the bait then. Ignore him and he will go away.
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I am sure it is a wind up but the replies are funny.... British sarcasm, got to love it :-)
Crab
I was taugth to fly using the "monkey see, monkey do" method. Maybe I have taken it too seriously and turned into one?
Crab
I was taugth to fly using the "monkey see, monkey do" method. Maybe I have taken it too seriously and turned into one?
Give the chap some credit, this thread made me laugh on a dull Monday morning. So long as people realise "Le Singe" is a p*ss taker then I see no problems, funny to see how many cages get rattled so quickly, especially with the Heli Lanes thread!
TiP
TiP
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hi boys and girls - only joined up tonight - and find this - people wanting to know about r22'S & r44'S reliablity - if flying non stop for 8.5hrs inter island is worth a mention i'd take the R44 again without a second look - have spent upto 36hrs on a overwater ferry, once again without problems - bottom line is still the people who build and maintain these machines - yes we point them in the right direction but we as pilots play a fairly small roll when it comes to how good any type of helicoter is
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Its new and shiny but its a pig to start...
I know enginering on the internet can be a bit like describing art on the radio, but here goes..
We have a 44 raven 2 which for various reasons that i won't bother you with has less then 10 hours on the clock (ie brand new to us from Robinson) but sat on the ground inhibited for a year before being put into service.
Now it flies well but it is a PIG to start. Lest there is a technique acccusation, our pilots are well versed in starting the injected lycoming, but this one is a killer. 3 batteries in 5 starts..
There seems no ryme or reason to what makes it go, by the book primes, over primes and wait 30 seconds, starting with some throttle and snapping shut on start... it just seems to fire eventually when it fancies (which is not that much).
If someone has a cast iron magic technique for starting or can think of a reason why it should be such a pig, then PLEASE !
I know the engine will be tight and the tight belts driving the rotor on start don't help either, but this is the hardest one i've ever tried.. and, like women and beers, i've tried a few....
We have a 44 raven 2 which for various reasons that i won't bother you with has less then 10 hours on the clock (ie brand new to us from Robinson) but sat on the ground inhibited for a year before being put into service.
Now it flies well but it is a PIG to start. Lest there is a technique acccusation, our pilots are well versed in starting the injected lycoming, but this one is a killer. 3 batteries in 5 starts..
There seems no ryme or reason to what makes it go, by the book primes, over primes and wait 30 seconds, starting with some throttle and snapping shut on start... it just seems to fire eventually when it fancies (which is not that much).
If someone has a cast iron magic technique for starting or can think of a reason why it should be such a pig, then PLEASE !
I know the engine will be tight and the tight belts driving the rotor on start don't help either, but this is the hardest one i've ever tried.. and, like women and beers, i've tried a few....
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There are two small wires comming off the starter motor, one of them supplies power to the starter vibrator, if there is corrosion on these connectors it will stop the starter vibrator from working. This has just caused us plenty of grief, the engine cranks over as normal and you think it has to be a fuel prob but after flattening the battery a couple of times and a couple of very puzzled engineers we found that there was corrosion on these connectors and there was no power getting to the Starter vibrator, another indication was that the starter light was not iluminating. Might be of help.
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Robinson Rebuild
I am totally confused! I always thought that at 12 years or 2,200 hours, whichever came first, your R22/44 had to be rebuilt. I then have seen some heli's for sale that have had a 12 year "inspection" where the heli has only done say around 1100 hours and can go for another 12 years as long as certain parts are replaced and and that the 2,200 hours isn't exceed. So technically you can fly another 1110 hours in 12 years. Is this right?
I saw an R44 Astro for sale, way past its callender 12 years and on enquirying about it was told the following:
" You're confusing Time Life items versus TBO items versus maintenance manual items. The only calendar items that MUST be done at 12 years on an R-44 is the blades. Then they're are other items that have a time life of 2200 hours and MUST be replaced. Also at 2200 hours several items have a TBO that you can either do or keep running on condition. Also Robinson's maintenance manual has a 12 year inspection that has you replace and inspect numerous items, but again it is not mandatory. The only FAA mandated requirement is to not overfly time life limits and to have an annual inspection. If you're doing commercial work then also 100 hr inspections. It's different if you're a part 135 operator, then you HAVE to do all the maintenance manual requirements as well as all SB's. It is a common misunderstanding that the whole helicopter has to be completed overhauled just because it reaches 12 years or 2200 hours, but that is just not the case.
Anyway, I'd be glad to talk more with you about these requirements and 159RP."
Is it different in the USA and could I adopt this if I bought an "N" reg machine? Sorry if I'm being thick but would be grateful if someone could clear this up? Many thanks.
I saw an R44 Astro for sale, way past its callender 12 years and on enquirying about it was told the following:
" You're confusing Time Life items versus TBO items versus maintenance manual items. The only calendar items that MUST be done at 12 years on an R-44 is the blades. Then they're are other items that have a time life of 2200 hours and MUST be replaced. Also at 2200 hours several items have a TBO that you can either do or keep running on condition. Also Robinson's maintenance manual has a 12 year inspection that has you replace and inspect numerous items, but again it is not mandatory. The only FAA mandated requirement is to not overfly time life limits and to have an annual inspection. If you're doing commercial work then also 100 hr inspections. It's different if you're a part 135 operator, then you HAVE to do all the maintenance manual requirements as well as all SB's. It is a common misunderstanding that the whole helicopter has to be completed overhauled just because it reaches 12 years or 2200 hours, but that is just not the case.
Anyway, I'd be glad to talk more with you about these requirements and 159RP."
Is it different in the USA and could I adopt this if I bought an "N" reg machine? Sorry if I'm being thick but would be grateful if someone could clear this up? Many thanks.
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12 year inspections and 12 year overhauls
Gents,
it really is very simple, and (with respect) Chopper Doc you are adding to the confusion.
We are talking about two different things:
(i) The 12 year Inspection and (ii) the the 12 year Overhaul.
Starting with economic practicalities, ANY Robinson R44 that has flown more than 1200 hours and is 12 years old should have a 12 year Overhaul. This is where you buy a kit from Robinson and most things get thrown away/exchanged and you get a bill for around £140,000 and a helicopter that is fit for another 12 years and another 2,200 hours.
This is exactly what happens to a Robinson R44 helicopter that gets to 2,200 hours any time between 1 years and 12 years. It has flown the maximum amount of hours authorised by Robinson (and the FAA) and is therefore out of time.
But the 12 year Inspection is something very different from this.
For any aircraft that has flown less than 1200 hours, you should ask your authorised Robinson Service Centre to quote on a 12 year Inspection.
You don't have to send the aircraft back to the Robinson factory or take it to either of the two dealers here.
In the UK, there are plenty of organisations that will do these Inspections and Overhauls. Helimech, GB Engineering, PDG, Brian Seedle Helicopters, HJS Helicopters, Aero Maintenance, London Helicopters are all places that will quote for either. Forgive me if I've left any names out!
The Inspection still involves replacing lifed items (eg MR blades, various other moving parts) but there is a lot of other stuff that it is NOT madatory to scrap/exchange. If the part passes the Inspection, it is fit for purpose and remains a "On condition" part until the next check.
So, if you have a 12 year old airframe that has a total time of (say) 1000 hours, blades that are (say) only 4 years old and an engine that is (say) 4 years old with 600 hours used then you can certainly save a fortune by having the 12 year Inspection, and not doing the Overhaul.
The important thing to remember is that regardless of the cost of the Inspection, your airframe will STILL only have a life of 2,200 hours. That's why I say that there's no point in having the Inspection done on an aircraft with 1,500 hours -- you'll have virtually the same labour costs, and a lot of the parts costs, but you'll end up with an aircraft with just 700 hours to run.
If you are lucky enough to come across a very good condition 12 year old R44 with out of phase engine and blades, then it is well worth considering.
Even if you have a R44 with 12 years on the engine and airframe, but less than a 1000 hours TT, it is STILL worth looking at. For PRIVATE use, the Lycoming engine's life can be extended beyond 12 years, so the big expense will be the blades.
If you can find second hand blades (not easy), you could be looking at a saving of over £70,000 to get your aircraft airworthy again for 12 years. OK, you'll always have to buy blades when they get to 12 years, but if you want to budget your costs and phase the big spending times, this is a good thing.
All this is only really relevant to private pilots who fly less than 100 hours a year -- but I'd bet that this will apply to most of the people who actually own R44s in the UK.
In summary, Valve Guide, you are absolutely correct and it is the same in the UK, the USA, and all over the law-abiding aviation world.
Hope this helps,
Big Ls.
it really is very simple, and (with respect) Chopper Doc you are adding to the confusion.
We are talking about two different things:
(i) The 12 year Inspection and (ii) the the 12 year Overhaul.
Starting with economic practicalities, ANY Robinson R44 that has flown more than 1200 hours and is 12 years old should have a 12 year Overhaul. This is where you buy a kit from Robinson and most things get thrown away/exchanged and you get a bill for around £140,000 and a helicopter that is fit for another 12 years and another 2,200 hours.
This is exactly what happens to a Robinson R44 helicopter that gets to 2,200 hours any time between 1 years and 12 years. It has flown the maximum amount of hours authorised by Robinson (and the FAA) and is therefore out of time.
But the 12 year Inspection is something very different from this.
For any aircraft that has flown less than 1200 hours, you should ask your authorised Robinson Service Centre to quote on a 12 year Inspection.
You don't have to send the aircraft back to the Robinson factory or take it to either of the two dealers here.
In the UK, there are plenty of organisations that will do these Inspections and Overhauls. Helimech, GB Engineering, PDG, Brian Seedle Helicopters, HJS Helicopters, Aero Maintenance, London Helicopters are all places that will quote for either. Forgive me if I've left any names out!
The Inspection still involves replacing lifed items (eg MR blades, various other moving parts) but there is a lot of other stuff that it is NOT madatory to scrap/exchange. If the part passes the Inspection, it is fit for purpose and remains a "On condition" part until the next check.
So, if you have a 12 year old airframe that has a total time of (say) 1000 hours, blades that are (say) only 4 years old and an engine that is (say) 4 years old with 600 hours used then you can certainly save a fortune by having the 12 year Inspection, and not doing the Overhaul.
The important thing to remember is that regardless of the cost of the Inspection, your airframe will STILL only have a life of 2,200 hours. That's why I say that there's no point in having the Inspection done on an aircraft with 1,500 hours -- you'll have virtually the same labour costs, and a lot of the parts costs, but you'll end up with an aircraft with just 700 hours to run.
If you are lucky enough to come across a very good condition 12 year old R44 with out of phase engine and blades, then it is well worth considering.
Even if you have a R44 with 12 years on the engine and airframe, but less than a 1000 hours TT, it is STILL worth looking at. For PRIVATE use, the Lycoming engine's life can be extended beyond 12 years, so the big expense will be the blades.
If you can find second hand blades (not easy), you could be looking at a saving of over £70,000 to get your aircraft airworthy again for 12 years. OK, you'll always have to buy blades when they get to 12 years, but if you want to budget your costs and phase the big spending times, this is a good thing.
All this is only really relevant to private pilots who fly less than 100 hours a year -- but I'd bet that this will apply to most of the people who actually own R44s in the UK.
In summary, Valve Guide, you are absolutely correct and it is the same in the UK, the USA, and all over the law-abiding aviation world.
Hope this helps,
Big Ls.
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Thanks biggles thats much clearer now. Do the bits that have not made 2200 hours need to be inspected at regular intervals which they would not need if they were replaced and had a fresh 12 years and 2200 hours? If so does that make it more expensive in the long run?
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Valve Guide
Valve Guide, in answer to your questions:
The parts that have not been changed at the 12 year Inspection do not need special checks. They get checked at the 50 hours, 100hr and Annual inspection along with the rest of the aircraft.
There may be a marginal difference in costs over the long run (due to extra labour costs and inflation), but I don't think you'd notice it. In any event, the benefits of better cashflow, lower insurance premiums, less capital tied up should massively outweigh the extra labour costs over the 12 year time scale.
Where you WILL notice a difference will be in the re-sale value of the R44, and more specifically how easy it is to sell it.
A R44 with 1100 hours and 12 years to run will only appeal to private owner. Schools and commercial operators will not be interested. This makes it less desirable and will suppress the price.
But this is not necessarily a bad thing. If you've owned your R44 for 12 years, and flown 1200 hours in this time, and you spend (say) £50,000 on an Inspection, you'll still be able to sell it for over 100k if it still has 10 years and 1000 hours to go. Don't forget that a new R44 is now £300k or more!!
And there are plenty of potential private R44 owners who would jump at the chance of owning a helicopter with lots of years of life for 110k, even if they know they will have to buy some blades at some later stage.
Big Ls.
Code:
"Thanks biggles thats much clearer now. Do the bits that have not made 2200 hours need to be inspected at regular intervals which they would not need if they were replaced and had a fresh 12 years and 2200 hours? If so does that make it more expensive in the long run?"
There may be a marginal difference in costs over the long run (due to extra labour costs and inflation), but I don't think you'd notice it. In any event, the benefits of better cashflow, lower insurance premiums, less capital tied up should massively outweigh the extra labour costs over the 12 year time scale.
Where you WILL notice a difference will be in the re-sale value of the R44, and more specifically how easy it is to sell it.
A R44 with 1100 hours and 12 years to run will only appeal to private owner. Schools and commercial operators will not be interested. This makes it less desirable and will suppress the price.
But this is not necessarily a bad thing. If you've owned your R44 for 12 years, and flown 1200 hours in this time, and you spend (say) £50,000 on an Inspection, you'll still be able to sell it for over 100k if it still has 10 years and 1000 hours to go. Don't forget that a new R44 is now £300k or more!!
And there are plenty of potential private R44 owners who would jump at the chance of owning a helicopter with lots of years of life for 110k, even if they know they will have to buy some blades at some later stage.
Big Ls.