Robinson R44
Join Date: Jun 2008
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"Bump" in flight
Second hand information, not personally involved.
Suppose that you feel a "bump" in flight. One "bang", judder of the airframe, no loss of power or lift, engine running fine afterwards and no sign of vibration or loss of control.
Would you auto, MAYDAY and power-on land in a public park in a large city?
East London Advertiser - Helicopter makes emergency landing in Millwall Park
YES is the right answer.
If you get the same symptoms then have an engineer check the sprag clutch! Aircraft in bits. Part going back to Robinson. AAIB / CAA informed.
Suppose that you feel a "bump" in flight. One "bang", judder of the airframe, no loss of power or lift, engine running fine afterwards and no sign of vibration or loss of control.
Would you auto, MAYDAY and power-on land in a public park in a large city?
East London Advertiser - Helicopter makes emergency landing in Millwall Park
YES is the right answer.
If you get the same symptoms then have an engineer check the sprag clutch! Aircraft in bits. Part going back to Robinson. AAIB / CAA informed.
Helicopter makes emergency landing in Millwall Park
10 March 2010
RESIDENTS basking in the sunshine in Millwall Park had to make a quick escape on Sunday afternoon when a helicopter was forced to make an emergency landing.
The pilot of the four-seater helicopter had to make the landing in the park on the Isle of Dog following mechanical problems with the aircraft.
Firefighters from Millwall Station were called to clear the park and help guide the pilot to safety at around 5.30pm.
Crew manager David Maisey told the Advertiser that a couple from Redhill in Surrey had been enjoying a tour of the skies 1,500ft above the ground, over Canary Wharf, to celebrate their tenth wedding anniversary.
Mr Maisey said: "The pilot said there was a loud bang and then the helicopter started to drop.
"But he managed to land it safely and we had to check that everyone was alright. "There were kids playing football but they were enthralled by what was happening.
"The helicopter had to eventually be towed away.
10 March 2010
RESIDENTS basking in the sunshine in Millwall Park had to make a quick escape on Sunday afternoon when a helicopter was forced to make an emergency landing.
The pilot of the four-seater helicopter had to make the landing in the park on the Isle of Dog following mechanical problems with the aircraft.
Firefighters from Millwall Station were called to clear the park and help guide the pilot to safety at around 5.30pm.
Crew manager David Maisey told the Advertiser that a couple from Redhill in Surrey had been enjoying a tour of the skies 1,500ft above the ground, over Canary Wharf, to celebrate their tenth wedding anniversary.
Mr Maisey said: "The pilot said there was a loud bang and then the helicopter started to drop.
"But he managed to land it safely and we had to check that everyone was alright. "There were kids playing football but they were enthralled by what was happening.
"The helicopter had to eventually be towed away.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Suppose that you feel a "bump" in flight. One "bang", judder of the airframe, no loss of power or lift, engine running fine afterwards and no sign of vibration or loss of control.
Would you auto, MAYDAY and power-on land in a public park in a large city?
.
.
.
YES is the right answer.
Would you auto, MAYDAY and power-on land in a public park in a large city?
.
.
.
YES is the right answer.
The example John gives has "no loss of power or lift, engine running fine afterwards and no sign of vibration or loss of control", so why the Mayday and why auto into the park full of people who don't know whats happening?
How about a Pan or Mayday and straight in to City Airport. You know, that place just over a mile away with the fire crews etc ready and waiting and practised in matters aviation! After all, no loss of power etc.
Why autorotate into the park full of people, oblivious to what's about to come down from the sky around them 
John, I don't think it is the right answer in your example...to be honest it sounds like a glancing birdstrike!
In the referenced incident, the pilot had an apparent loss of power;
In this incident, "The pilot said there was a loud bang and then the helicopter started to drop", darn right...Mayday, Mayday Mayday.... But what's going on when there was time to call the Fire Brigade, who subsequently got the park cleared and then guided them in?
Firefighters from Millwall Station were called to clear the park and help guide the pilot to safety at around 5.30pm.
The big issue that needs addressing with this may be; Could this aircraft have 'alighted' without danger to persons or property on the surface if it really was a Mayday?
There are no limits
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Shrewsbury, England.
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I should point out that we are going through this evolution with our fleet of R44's.
If you hear a thud/bang that sounds like someone dropping a large heavy wrench/spanner on the floor in the back of the aircraft, then your sprag is in imminent danger of failure.
This is prevalent in our fleet which operate in +30c to -30c with up to 50 starts per day.
A failed sprag may seize but it will most probably run free = no drive.
Some of the sprags that we have stripped out ended up in 100 pieces
We are still monitoring the number of starts and are changing the fluid every 100 hours. So far the problem has been reduced by about 80% and we are cautiously optimistic.
If you hear a thud/bang that sounds like someone dropping a large heavy wrench/spanner on the floor in the back of the aircraft, then your sprag is in imminent danger of failure.
This is prevalent in our fleet which operate in +30c to -30c with up to 50 starts per day.
A failed sprag may seize but it will most probably run free = no drive.
Some of the sprags that we have stripped out ended up in 100 pieces
We are still monitoring the number of starts and are changing the fluid every 100 hours. So far the problem has been reduced by about 80% and we are cautiously optimistic.
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"what limits"
Intersting info. Keep us up to date on anything you find. Sounds like there have been several issues with the FW unit. If your fluid changing procedure works that would be a relatively cheap and easy preventative measure.
Thanks for posting this
Intersting info. Keep us up to date on anything you find. Sounds like there have been several issues with the FW unit. If your fluid changing procedure works that would be a relatively cheap and easy preventative measure.
Thanks for posting this
There are no limits
Join Date: May 2002
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wulfman, you are welcome.
We tried to upgrade the fluid but would have had to fund the full STC = too expensive.
The FW/Sprag is a sealed unit from the manufacturer. Later models have a hole in the case which would allow for fluid changes.
I wll update as we learn more.
Edited to add pictures - I hope!!
We tried to upgrade the fluid but would have had to fund the full STC = too expensive.
The FW/Sprag is a sealed unit from the manufacturer. Later models have a hole in the case which would allow for fluid changes.
I wll update as we learn more.
Edited to add pictures - I hope!!
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SilsoSid
Please remember that the newspaper reporter will dramatise things. The park was actually empty, no risk to anyone. And it was a power-on landing.
And was it the right action? Definately in this case in my view. You can see the pictures of damage cage. The shock loading from the slip should also be considered. In this case interesting torque damage to the tail roter drive shaft.
I don't see this as a "land as soon as practicable" event - I see it as a "land as soon as possible" (but not a "land immediately")
Please remember that the newspaper reporter will dramatise things. The park was actually empty, no risk to anyone. And it was a power-on landing.
And was it the right action? Definately in this case in my view. You can see the pictures of damage cage. The shock loading from the slip should also be considered. In this case interesting torque damage to the tail roter drive shaft.
I don't see this as a "land as soon as practicable" event - I see it as a "land as soon as possible" (but not a "land immediately")
Join Date: Jan 2003
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R44 Astro: super-stiff collective, no remedy?
Recently got assigned to a 1998 almost-run-out Astro, discovered the collective is really strange: before engine start, it almost wants to pop UP from the floor. After the rotor blades are turning, it is preloaded to the down position, to the point that in flight it is like weight-lifting to raise the lever for climb (20# pull?). Take your hand off without friction set and it moves most of the way to the floor in 1-2 seconds.
Robinson factory says "check the rigging." Naturally, we've done that. No change--and the stiff lever didn't change even when we recently installed a new transmission and rotor head, STILL unusually stiff.
No other Astro I've encountered is like this. Anybody know of a condition that induces this problem?
Robinson factory says "check the rigging." Naturally, we've done that. No change--and the stiff lever didn't change even when we recently installed a new transmission and rotor head, STILL unusually stiff.
No other Astro I've encountered is like this. Anybody know of a condition that induces this problem?
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Collective Spring Assembly
Your Astro has a Collective Spring Assembly, chapter 8.220 in the maintenance manual. The rods can get jammed or very worn and cause it to jam. Remove and repair/replace as per 8.220, that should solve your problem.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Robinson R44 engine failure/crash statistics (USA)
Could someone please point me in the right direction as to where I can find the stats for R44 engine failures and crashes.
Also, I know it's the wrong place but I'm also looking for stats on hot air balloon incidents too. (I will also post this in the appropriate forum).
Many thanks in advance.
Jim
Also, I know it's the wrong place but I'm also looking for stats on hot air balloon incidents too. (I will also post this in the appropriate forum).
Many thanks in advance.
Jim
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Aviation Accident Database Query
I'm not sure there have been any R44 accidents due to engine failure, maybe some carb heat ones. Search for R44 and begin wading through!
And/oR...
Griffin Helicopters | Accident Database
I'm not sure there have been any R44 accidents due to engine failure, maybe some carb heat ones. Search for R44 and begin wading through!
And/oR...
Griffin Helicopters | Accident Database
CptJim
If you do use the Griffin one let me know it is well overdue an update i just need an excuse to schedule the time and if its useful to you then I will.
Gary
If you do use the Griffin one let me know it is well overdue an update i just need an excuse to schedule the time and if its useful to you then I will.
Gary
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Guys,
Thank you very much for the speedy replies.
Gary, great information on your site, don't worry too much about updating as the information on there right now is exactly what I need.
Best regards,
Jim
Thank you very much for the speedy replies.
Gary, great information on your site, don't worry too much about updating as the information on there right now is exactly what I need.
Best regards,
Jim
If you keep the search to engine rather than drive chain and transmission, from previous research only three documented cases I can find, worldwide.
*SA CAA ref 7819 13 June 2004 "The engine failure was as the result of the number 6 piston pin plug failing."
*German Federal Bureau of accident investigatins. Sept 04 2001 ref 3X241-0/01 engine damage evident on spark plugs.
*Canadian CAA ref A04P0422. Engine vibration causing V belt to fail.
More reading here;
http://www.kreindler.com/kreindler_n...rrent/2006-05-
Legal_Victory_Robinson.htm
Numerous cases of "total loss of power" where no mechanical cause could be found. In many cases post fire damage making conlusive investigation impossible.
A search for any failed mechanical elements to do with the search term "failure to maintain lift" would be a good comparitor across helicopter types?
Mickjoebill
*SA CAA ref 7819 13 June 2004 "The engine failure was as the result of the number 6 piston pin plug failing."
*German Federal Bureau of accident investigatins. Sept 04 2001 ref 3X241-0/01 engine damage evident on spark plugs.
*Canadian CAA ref A04P0422. Engine vibration causing V belt to fail.
More reading here;
http://www.kreindler.com/kreindler_n...rrent/2006-05-
Legal_Victory_Robinson.htm
Numerous cases of "total loss of power" where no mechanical cause could be found. In many cases post fire damage making conlusive investigation impossible.
A search for any failed mechanical elements to do with the search term "failure to maintain lift" would be a good comparitor across helicopter types?
Mickjoebill
Join Date: Dec 1999
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R44 Performance Question
I'm not familiar with the R44, and I'm not comfortable with calclations based on manufacturer's optimistic empty weight figures. Can anyone offer a bit of guidance?
What is a representative aps/dry operating weight?
How is the performance on a UK summer's day at max AUW? Is thise going to be a limited power situation?
What is min in-flight fuel?
Are there many MkIIs in UK? Is it likely/unlikely to see one here?
Is there much to choose between them performance wise?
Thanks!
What is a representative aps/dry operating weight?
How is the performance on a UK summer's day at max AUW? Is thise going to be a limited power situation?
What is min in-flight fuel?
Are there many MkIIs in UK? Is it likely/unlikely to see one here?
Is there much to choose between them performance wise?
Thanks!
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IF flown correctly the 44 is a fantastic aircraft, dont let the turbine snobs put you off it. what other aircraft will carry four pob and cruise all day at 110kts for under £300????
it has brought flying to a wider audience. but like all helicopters it has its limitations. as for performance on a hot day like most machines if you go into a confined area at max auw you are asking for trouble... esp with the earlier models ie not the raven two.
please ask more specific questions and im sure you will get lots of informative answers.
it has brought flying to a wider audience. but like all helicopters it has its limitations. as for performance on a hot day like most machines if you go into a confined area at max auw you are asking for trouble... esp with the earlier models ie not the raven two.
please ask more specific questions and im sure you will get lots of informative answers.
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A couple of examples from some old data in CG spreadsheets:
Raven1 with a pretty standard fit as I recall - 1475 lb (versus 1442 lb from website)
Raven2 with a night kit - 1520 lb (versus 1500lb from website)
From G-INFO, there are 310 R44s, of which 195 are Raven II (not accounting for deregistrations etc).
In very general terms (and if my memory serves me correctly), both the Raven and Raven II are pilot derated to 205bhp MCP.
For take off, the Raven II gains an additional 20bhp (245 bhp over the 225bhp for the Raven I).
AUW for the Raven II is 100lb better, but typically the aircraft weighs more.
The extra take off rating came in handy, but once in the cruise you were hauling a heavier aircraft around with only the same MCP available (admittedly this was not particularly noticeable).
You lose the problem of carburettor icing, but some people find starting a hot Raven II awkward - although I see one of the recent newsletters has some pointers on this. There are quite a few other differences, but that is the essence of it.
Raven1 with a pretty standard fit as I recall - 1475 lb (versus 1442 lb from website)
Raven2 with a night kit - 1520 lb (versus 1500lb from website)
From G-INFO, there are 310 R44s, of which 195 are Raven II (not accounting for deregistrations etc).
In very general terms (and if my memory serves me correctly), both the Raven and Raven II are pilot derated to 205bhp MCP.
For take off, the Raven II gains an additional 20bhp (245 bhp over the 225bhp for the Raven I).
AUW for the Raven II is 100lb better, but typically the aircraft weighs more.
The extra take off rating came in handy, but once in the cruise you were hauling a heavier aircraft around with only the same MCP available (admittedly this was not particularly noticeable).
You lose the problem of carburettor icing, but some people find starting a hot Raven II awkward - although I see one of the recent newsletters has some pointers on this. There are quite a few other differences, but that is the essence of it.
Last edited by longtime lurker; 23rd May 2010 at 19:45. Reason: Added information
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To be fair it's only 1000 lbs useful load for the R I, a bit more for the R II.
it is where you carry it that is crucial.
full fuel + 4 by 75kg pax is an easy rule of thumb that sees you nicely behind the allowable forward C of G with full fuel line on Chart 2-3.
Make sure that if there is a pax heavier than 75, that he sits in back, and his lighter child or wife sits in front.
range is 2 1/2 hours with 30 minutes reserve, just a bit less than all day.
Please be careful of forward C of G. two fatals (4 in each) in OZ had that finger pointed at them.
I would be very surprised if you couldn't slowly do a vertical take off anywhere in England any day with the above load.
As another rule of thumb, if the A/C cannot climb slowly - don't jerk it up unless you wanna die - under its own merit, every 100lbs less will give you about 10hp or 1" MAP extra to use.
slowly, means keep the A/C level, increase the MAP to the allowable T/O power for that day according to the chart above your head, and allow it to demonstrate its own capacity or not to climb. always go at least 10 feet above obstacles to allow enough height to trade off for a smooth translatrion, given that you should not reduce power until you reach the airspeed for least power required.
it only will take a couple of minutes to repositon one of your pax or a bit of frieght to a more suitable position.
it is where you carry it that is crucial.
full fuel + 4 by 75kg pax is an easy rule of thumb that sees you nicely behind the allowable forward C of G with full fuel line on Chart 2-3.
Make sure that if there is a pax heavier than 75, that he sits in back, and his lighter child or wife sits in front.
range is 2 1/2 hours with 30 minutes reserve, just a bit less than all day.
Please be careful of forward C of G. two fatals (4 in each) in OZ had that finger pointed at them.
I would be very surprised if you couldn't slowly do a vertical take off anywhere in England any day with the above load.
As another rule of thumb, if the A/C cannot climb slowly - don't jerk it up unless you wanna die - under its own merit, every 100lbs less will give you about 10hp or 1" MAP extra to use.
slowly, means keep the A/C level, increase the MAP to the allowable T/O power for that day according to the chart above your head, and allow it to demonstrate its own capacity or not to climb. always go at least 10 feet above obstacles to allow enough height to trade off for a smooth translatrion, given that you should not reduce power until you reach the airspeed for least power required.
it only will take a couple of minutes to repositon one of your pax or a bit of frieght to a more suitable position.