Robinson R44
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I have witnessed police ops in the USA using both 22 & 44. Not as a replacement for twin-turbines, but supplementary. In many ways the R22 has the capability to be a better pair of eyes than the vehicles on the ground - and at an operating cost which is not much more than the cost of one car. Factor in the enormous depreciation in the capital cost of a police car, against the relatively controllable depreciation of an R22 - and you see why they do it. Not major metro forces - more rural "county" forces.
OK - transfer this pattern to the UK. The all-up equipped cost of a Police Range Rover must be getting on for the price of an R22. Which one works better in rural, hilly environments ?
As a spotter for ground forces, the R22 makes a lot of sense. Unless it's night etc etc.
I am not at all certain that the £3m machine that costs £1200 an hour to run is being put to the best use ALL the time. If it's just for observation in daylight, surely a smaller machine could do the job?
Remember the Optica ?
OK - transfer this pattern to the UK. The all-up equipped cost of a Police Range Rover must be getting on for the price of an R22. Which one works better in rural, hilly environments ?
As a spotter for ground forces, the R22 makes a lot of sense. Unless it's night etc etc.
I am not at all certain that the £3m machine that costs £1200 an hour to run is being put to the best use ALL the time. If it's just for observation in daylight, surely a smaller machine could do the job?
Remember the Optica ?
TC,
There are two sides to that argument. What if the sooper dooper, equipped for WW III, doppleturbine, mega beast was out hunting for a little girl lost somewhere on the moors and a shout was made for a covert op on a drug runner offshore. Do you call off the task, RTB, refuel and set off, leaving the foot soldiers to slog through the marshy heather, or would it be better to have a Thunderbird 2 to launch ?
Old Heliman,
Point taken on the crewing requirements, but I'm cheap !!! You could probably have eight of me for the price of one old, bold twin turb vet.
But given the experience across the Atlantic why do we have massive, massively equipped helicopters in these roles. Everyone's happy to beat up the CAA with "the Yanks do it this way and their accident stats aren't any worse than our's", yet there's a sharp difference when it comes to the way the different airborne units operate. Are their accident/arrest/whatever rates any better or worse than ours, with their R22s/R44s/Jet Rangers?
PS I do also take on board the fact that the CAA has a fit at the thought of singles scooting around over cities (as indeed do I !) but surely they would make sense for some of the less well off Rural forces, at the very least.
There are two sides to that argument. What if the sooper dooper, equipped for WW III, doppleturbine, mega beast was out hunting for a little girl lost somewhere on the moors and a shout was made for a covert op on a drug runner offshore. Do you call off the task, RTB, refuel and set off, leaving the foot soldiers to slog through the marshy heather, or would it be better to have a Thunderbird 2 to launch ?
Old Heliman,
Point taken on the crewing requirements, but I'm cheap !!! You could probably have eight of me for the price of one old, bold twin turb vet.
But given the experience across the Atlantic why do we have massive, massively equipped helicopters in these roles. Everyone's happy to beat up the CAA with "the Yanks do it this way and their accident stats aren't any worse than our's", yet there's a sharp difference when it comes to the way the different airborne units operate. Are their accident/arrest/whatever rates any better or worse than ours, with their R22s/R44s/Jet Rangers?
PS I do also take on board the fact that the CAA has a fit at the thought of singles scooting around over cities (as indeed do I !) but surely they would make sense for some of the less well off Rural forces, at the very least.
There have been instances of UK police forces using singles [fixed wing and rotary] over rural areas in recent years. But .... the uses have been specific operations.
Ok the modern helicopters are expensive [but not £1200ph - yet ... cut that by a third unless you are including the crew] but the main difference is whether you have one airframe that does every conceivable job or go to the US system that has 6 $50 airframes in a rack [and some US taxpayers complain about that!] and you use whichever the hard pressed engineer has got working.
Even that multi-airframe system is moving over in favour of something new [and single] that is reliable and cheap to run.
The fact remains most police R44 operators in the US tend to be buzzing around the block - no great area and no great stress.
Ok the modern helicopters are expensive [but not £1200ph - yet ... cut that by a third unless you are including the crew] but the main difference is whether you have one airframe that does every conceivable job or go to the US system that has 6 $50 airframes in a rack [and some US taxpayers complain about that!] and you use whichever the hard pressed engineer has got working.
Even that multi-airframe system is moving over in favour of something new [and single] that is reliable and cheap to run.
The fact remains most police R44 operators in the US tend to be buzzing around the block - no great area and no great stress.
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Slightly off topic, but many posters on this thread have questioned the use of police helicopters to catch speeding motorists.
My neighbour's daughter was killed by a speeding motorist, so perhaps I'm biased.
But speeding motorists kill more law-abiding citizens than all the muggers, rapists and dope peddlers in christendom - about ten a day on average in Britain.
If you want to know who the real killers are, you don't have to look far.
There can be no better use of police resources than nailing these bastards.
My neighbour's daughter was killed by a speeding motorist, so perhaps I'm biased.
But speeding motorists kill more law-abiding citizens than all the muggers, rapists and dope peddlers in christendom - about ten a day on average in Britain.
If you want to know who the real killers are, you don't have to look far.
There can be no better use of police resources than nailing these bastards.
It also comes down to different ways of operating. Police helicopters in the UK generally only fly when called for by patrols on the ground. Each force(apart from a couple) only has a single aircraft which flies around 1000-1300 hours a year.
Compare that to the US, where forces have numerous aircraft and fly routine patrols. For example: New York City Police Department has six choppers and flies an average of 300 hours a month. The Houston Police Department has eight aircraft and flies an average of 450 hours a month. The Los Angeles Police Department flies 18 aircraft, racks up 1,800 flight hours a month.
Compare that to the US, where forces have numerous aircraft and fly routine patrols. For example: New York City Police Department has six choppers and flies an average of 300 hours a month. The Houston Police Department has eight aircraft and flies an average of 450 hours a month. The Los Angeles Police Department flies 18 aircraft, racks up 1,800 flight hours a month.
Avoid imitations
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Headsethair,
Speaking as a pilot with some experience of the situation, the answer to your question about firefighting helicopters against tall buildings is quite straightforward.
IT DOESN'T WORK.
The water runs off the building and doesn't reach the seat of the fire.
Water let loose from heli goes down. Water needed to put fire out should go horizontal. Simple as that.
Speaking as a pilot with some experience of the situation, the answer to your question about firefighting helicopters against tall buildings is quite straightforward.
IT DOESN'T WORK.
The water runs off the building and doesn't reach the seat of the fire.
Water let loose from heli goes down. Water needed to put fire out should go horizontal. Simple as that.
Avoid imitations
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No, I've not seen it.
However, have seen a few real ones and tried to put out more than one urban fire by water bombing because nothing else was available.
I wouldn't ever again live above the height of fire ladders and BTW these days I like to make sure I check out the fire escape routes at hotels I am sometimes obliged to stay in ASAP after check-in, always prefer a ground floor room.
I once watched one trapped soul burn to death right before my eyes, he was the other side of a steel barred window at the time, with the fires of hell burning behind him. Absolutely no chance of rescue with firemen powerless to do anything for him or the dozens also trapped above him. (Not 9/11 BTW, it was well before that one). That image will remain with me forever .
Sorry for this rather sombre post!
However, have seen a few real ones and tried to put out more than one urban fire by water bombing because nothing else was available.
I wouldn't ever again live above the height of fire ladders and BTW these days I like to make sure I check out the fire escape routes at hotels I am sometimes obliged to stay in ASAP after check-in, always prefer a ground floor room.
I once watched one trapped soul burn to death right before my eyes, he was the other side of a steel barred window at the time, with the fires of hell burning behind him. Absolutely no chance of rescue with firemen powerless to do anything for him or the dozens also trapped above him. (Not 9/11 BTW, it was well before that one). That image will remain with me forever .
Sorry for this rather sombre post!
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The cost of UK Police heli ops
My earlier figure of £1200 per hr is a direct quote from the 3-counties PAS helicopter that operates from Filton, Bristol. And yes - it includes 3 crew - and is the amount they bill out to other services for use of the machine.
Again slipping off topic, fire fighting.
There are [a very few] equipment options whereby fires can be fought using a water jet from the hover at the side of a building. the Neherlands police trialled [used?] it from an AS350 and I think it was the Far East [Japan?] that demonstrated an As330 with something similar. Hovering at the side of a towering inferno cannot be much fun though.
There are other uses for Fire helicopters though and they include, equipment transfer, personnel tranfer [firemen in and everyone out] as NYPD might have tried with 9/11 but for the roof doors being sealed.
On that figure of £1,200 per hour, no contest, but those tend to be arbitary figures. I have a quoted cost of £859K for the complete unit in 2001-02 and that includes the pilot but not the policemen. I believe they fly around 1,000 hours annually.
Any guesses on what the cops would add to that bill at around £30K each on average? That must be near your figure.
There are [a very few] equipment options whereby fires can be fought using a water jet from the hover at the side of a building. the Neherlands police trialled [used?] it from an AS350 and I think it was the Far East [Japan?] that demonstrated an As330 with something similar. Hovering at the side of a towering inferno cannot be much fun though.
There are other uses for Fire helicopters though and they include, equipment transfer, personnel tranfer [firemen in and everyone out] as NYPD might have tried with 9/11 but for the roof doors being sealed.
On that figure of £1,200 per hour, no contest, but those tend to be arbitary figures. I have a quoted cost of £859K for the complete unit in 2001-02 and that includes the pilot but not the policemen. I believe they fly around 1,000 hours annually.
Any guesses on what the cops would add to that bill at around £30K each on average? That must be near your figure.
Last edited by PANews; 23rd Aug 2003 at 21:15.
Headsethair: Your interpretations re the financing of police ops is woefully incorrect.
How much does a new R22 cost? £150,000 (guess) and that is in basic format, no police equipment of any discription fitted. By the time the engineers have finished with it, you'd be looking at >£250,000
The police have never ever paid full factory prices for bulk cars. I would suggest that a brand new R Rover would cost the force about £20000 for example, then FULLY loaded for police ops would total around about £50,000, I am reliably informed by my traffic inspector here. Hmmm, 50 Vs 250????? Not even close.
DOC's for helos are very subjective. Where do you start, do you include everything such as crew salaries and running costs, base running costs in support of the helos, insurance costs, etc.
Or do you only quote the basic dry operating cost of a basic airframe?
The OFFICIAL DOC for an EC135, as per the manufacturers literature is: $185/hr (dollars, not sterling). Add to that the fudge factor for every manufacturer who is trying to sell their stuff, : $400/hr say.
The £1200/hr quote you used from one of my neighbours, caters for every conceivable extra possible, including salaries/admin/insurance/fuel/maintenance etc etc. Accountants can quote whatever you want
Mighty Gem touched on a good point. The Yanks have a different perspective on police air ops....which is just as well.
The thought of dozens of R22's flying over the skies of the UK in black livery with black windows (because the pilots don't want to be seen in an R22
), sends shivers down my spine...why do you think all yank police pilots wear black glasses 
Everyone would have to go round with insect repellant
How much does a new R22 cost? £150,000 (guess) and that is in basic format, no police equipment of any discription fitted. By the time the engineers have finished with it, you'd be looking at >£250,000
The police have never ever paid full factory prices for bulk cars. I would suggest that a brand new R Rover would cost the force about £20000 for example, then FULLY loaded for police ops would total around about £50,000, I am reliably informed by my traffic inspector here. Hmmm, 50 Vs 250????? Not even close.
DOC's for helos are very subjective. Where do you start, do you include everything such as crew salaries and running costs, base running costs in support of the helos, insurance costs, etc.
Or do you only quote the basic dry operating cost of a basic airframe?
The OFFICIAL DOC for an EC135, as per the manufacturers literature is: $185/hr (dollars, not sterling). Add to that the fudge factor for every manufacturer who is trying to sell their stuff, : $400/hr say.
The £1200/hr quote you used from one of my neighbours, caters for every conceivable extra possible, including salaries/admin/insurance/fuel/maintenance etc etc. Accountants can quote whatever you want
Mighty Gem touched on a good point. The Yanks have a different perspective on police air ops....which is just as well.
The thought of dozens of R22's flying over the skies of the UK in black livery with black windows (because the pilots don't want to be seen in an R22
), sends shivers down my spine...why do you think all yank police pilots wear black glasses Everyone would have to go round with insect repellant
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In relation to little old Ireland. Our helicopters (all of them, police, etc.) are unfortunately crewed by the Air Corps, so if we had 8 44's we would have a ready supply of pilots dying to fly them since they spend most of their pilot officer careers in the officers mess playing flight sim - that's how little time they get to fly.
In the UK I understand that the R44 may not be suitable, but policing in Ireland is different to the UK. Most of our sky police stuff involves patrol and surveillance, it is rare that we have to drop armed officers into a hot zone. I just think for the tasks that our machines carry out now, the same work could be done by an R44. Maybe in the future we'll require heavy's to do the job, or maybe we need 1 heavy to supplement smaller machines like the 44, but I really don't think Ireland is getting good value for money at the moment. The helicopters spend most of their time patrolling the streets or concerts or expensive neighborhoods. There aren't many car chases to speak of in Ireland (the place is after all, tiny).
I'm not a police man though and I don't fly a police helicopter so my knowledge is limited to what I've said. Thanks for your insight though TC.
In the UK I understand that the R44 may not be suitable, but policing in Ireland is different to the UK. Most of our sky police stuff involves patrol and surveillance, it is rare that we have to drop armed officers into a hot zone. I just think for the tasks that our machines carry out now, the same work could be done by an R44. Maybe in the future we'll require heavy's to do the job, or maybe we need 1 heavy to supplement smaller machines like the 44, but I really don't think Ireland is getting good value for money at the moment. The helicopters spend most of their time patrolling the streets or concerts or expensive neighborhoods. There aren't many car chases to speak of in Ireland (the place is after all, tiny).
I'm not a police man though and I don't fly a police helicopter so my knowledge is limited to what I've said. Thanks for your insight though TC.
I'd have to disagree with you Capt Eagle. The Garda, amongst other things cover Dublin, with a population bigger than some UK force areas. You're not telling me that 46 miles of water makes the Irish any less susceptible to criminal activity of the sort we get here on the mainland.
I know the unit quite well and can assure you that they are just as 'busy' as the rest of us. In addition, they have miles of black stuff (and I don't mean Guinness!) to fly over and I believe loading an R44 with a SPIFR suite would only further exacerbate the situation??
The mil pilot aspect is an ongoing issue politically which will have to be resolved at some stage because of the problems with flight and crew rules (IAA / Mil).
I know the unit quite well and can assure you that they are just as 'busy' as the rest of us. In addition, they have miles of black stuff (and I don't mean Guinness!) to fly over and I believe loading an R44 with a SPIFR suite would only further exacerbate the situation??
The mil pilot aspect is an ongoing issue politically which will have to be resolved at some stage because of the problems with flight and crew rules (IAA / Mil).
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When Lancs were making their original bid for their 355, they worked out that in real terms, running the helo post purchase woudl be no dearer than keeping a double crewed traffic car on the road 24 hrs a day 365 per year.
I have never had the time to actually carry out the exercise, but think research should be done into low cost air support. There will always have to be a main helo (135, 902 et al) but I think there is a case for the additional use of the likes of the R22 and maybe even auto gyro's?
The biggest difficulty is funding. Every request for a sortie has to be carefully assessed by the pilot and observers, and a cost/benefit analysis carried out on the hoof. Money only goes so far and thus prevents the aircraft patrolling as such. However, I believe the Met do fly, or used to fly, some sort of patrol.
headsethair
The London Fire service did trial a BK 117 back around 1995. It had little thunderbird pods to put in the back
I personally beieve that joint services machines are worth a look. Going up to the size of a 365 offers huge possibilities from SAR to medevac to customs to police.
I have never had the time to actually carry out the exercise, but think research should be done into low cost air support. There will always have to be a main helo (135, 902 et al) but I think there is a case for the additional use of the likes of the R22 and maybe even auto gyro's?
The biggest difficulty is funding. Every request for a sortie has to be carefully assessed by the pilot and observers, and a cost/benefit analysis carried out on the hoof. Money only goes so far and thus prevents the aircraft patrolling as such. However, I believe the Met do fly, or used to fly, some sort of patrol.
headsethair
The London Fire service did trial a BK 117 back around 1995. It had little thunderbird pods to put in the back
I personally beieve that joint services machines are worth a look. Going up to the size of a 365 offers huge possibilities from SAR to medevac to customs to police.
Last edited by Heliport; 24th Aug 2003 at 19:50.
I hope you're not a police observer with views like that. On the one hand you moan about costing each launch 'on the hoof' (which is not strictly true - that's already been factored in, pilots and policemen just get on with the job), then in your next sentence you exhort the virtues of purchasing an additional a/c??
As for auto gyro's -you're winding me up now
I just noticed, the IOM doesn't have an air support does it? Hence the lack of background knowledge. Didn't your force lease/borrow a civvy chopper/plane to do some police aeriel work recently?? (Skyforce or somebody)?
As for auto gyro's -you're winding me up now
I just noticed, the IOM doesn't have an air support does it? Hence the lack of background knowledge. Didn't your force lease/borrow a civvy chopper/plane to do some police aeriel work recently?? (Skyforce or somebody)?
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Knowing a few prominent civil servants over here with responsibility for the ASU of the Gardai, I disagree with you. Our police are busy, that is true, crimes rates are climbing sky high but it can not be said that Ireland is anyway as diverse a country as the UK. The majority of criminal offences here do not require air support at all, we have had only one armed stand off in the last 3 years (now the subject of a massive inquiry because the armed special gardai shot him in the head) and really could make do with a lighter and cheaper helicopter, especially if we could have more helicopters (up to 6 being realistic with the budget) which would help cover the rest of the country. The 2 current machines are supposed to give countrywide support but really the only time they leave dublin is for the airshow in Galway every year and maybe for a drugs bust, I think that's happened once.
The Isle of Man has no air support but they have a fair background of using helicopters - mainly to support EMS requirements relating to the TT racing.
The Optica [it was pretty crap really] jigs are still unused and lying at North Weald after yet another potential manufacturer baulked at the task. Its inability to carry a sensor turret effectively halts any ideas of it serving as a modern police aircraft, but there is an Australian pretender to the crown [similar all round but with hard-points] just entering the market.
TC you have to be a little careful in your enthusiasm for your helicopter - you will have EVERYONE in them and giving up their plank wings or lesser rotaries! Mixed fleet economics aside there remains a place for planks [that nominally could be flown 'STOL' by a gyro] - and 'other' makes of helicopter! Remember the UK air industry used to have choice as well!
The Optica [it was pretty crap really] jigs are still unused and lying at North Weald after yet another potential manufacturer baulked at the task. Its inability to carry a sensor turret effectively halts any ideas of it serving as a modern police aircraft, but there is an Australian pretender to the crown [similar all round but with hard-points] just entering the market.
TC you have to be a little careful in your enthusiasm for your helicopter - you will have EVERYONE in them and giving up their plank wings or lesser rotaries! Mixed fleet economics aside there remains a place for planks [that nominally could be flown 'STOL' by a gyro] - and 'other' makes of helicopter! Remember the UK air industry used to have choice as well!
PAN news - I only comment on the industry I am in. A police force with ONLY plank wing, is either short of money, or has a chief constable who is anti air support - full stop. I can only think of 2 forces in this dept!!!
There IS a place for plank ops but it is very limited, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The helo is superior in EVERY department (don't drag endurance into it - very few jobs require the average force to remain airborne for hours on end). Helo AND FW is the ideal - but then we're back to costs.
Capt Eagle - May I suggest a visit to ANY (preferably the Gardai) police air support unit - it's amazing what you'll learn there. Then we'll talk
There IS a place for plank ops but it is very limited, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The helo is superior in EVERY department (don't drag endurance into it - very few jobs require the average force to remain airborne for hours on end). Helo AND FW is the ideal - but then we're back to costs.
Capt Eagle - May I suggest a visit to ANY (preferably the Gardai) police air support unit - it's amazing what you'll learn there. Then we'll talk
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Thomas
views like what, exactly m8?
You surmise that I have worked here all my career. My previous employer was an ASU operator and I spent a good deal of time either working with them or underneath them. Indeed, had I not decided to become a tax exile I would probably ended up on the ASU in question in due course.
Please don't make comments regarding any lack of background knowledge without knowing a little bit about me.
An ASU XO is only given a fixed amount of cash each year, within which he or she has to operate, Constabularies in the UK have been expected to make a two per cent year on year saving for some time now, and it doesn;t take a rocket scientist to understand that once the money has gone, going to see the Chief to ask for more is a fairly fruitless exercise. A number of hours will be projected for each year, but there aint much point in using them up before june and the thing being sat on the pad until the following april. Therefore, each job is assessed on its merits. Believe me, the decision to deploy or not doesn't always suit the customer either............
I certainly wasn't moaning about anything. The budgetary issues are very real.
What I do (as a police officer) is take a pragmatic approach to any problem. Until someone actually looks at low cost solutions ( including gyro's) who is to say that it isn't an option. there are going to be operation restrictions, but it may be that the benefits outweigh them. I don't know, as nobody else does, because no-one has sat down and asked the questions.
Don't forget, gyros have already been used for police work in a particularly high profile missing persons case.
On the final point, TC, we didnt and haven't leased or borrowed a chopper at all. I have previously looked for advice on this thread (police commandeering civilain helos) as to the constraints of the AOC on such activities.
We could not justify a police only machine of the 135/902 genre, hence my interest in low cost and multi agency solutions.
Thanks for your comments Thos, but I think you missed my point by a country mile
views like what, exactly m8?
You surmise that I have worked here all my career. My previous employer was an ASU operator and I spent a good deal of time either working with them or underneath them. Indeed, had I not decided to become a tax exile I would probably ended up on the ASU in question in due course.
Please don't make comments regarding any lack of background knowledge without knowing a little bit about me.
An ASU XO is only given a fixed amount of cash each year, within which he or she has to operate, Constabularies in the UK have been expected to make a two per cent year on year saving for some time now, and it doesn;t take a rocket scientist to understand that once the money has gone, going to see the Chief to ask for more is a fairly fruitless exercise. A number of hours will be projected for each year, but there aint much point in using them up before june and the thing being sat on the pad until the following april. Therefore, each job is assessed on its merits. Believe me, the decision to deploy or not doesn't always suit the customer either............
I certainly wasn't moaning about anything. The budgetary issues are very real.
What I do (as a police officer) is take a pragmatic approach to any problem. Until someone actually looks at low cost solutions ( including gyro's) who is to say that it isn't an option. there are going to be operation restrictions, but it may be that the benefits outweigh them. I don't know, as nobody else does, because no-one has sat down and asked the questions.
Don't forget, gyros have already been used for police work in a particularly high profile missing persons case.
On the final point, TC, we didnt and haven't leased or borrowed a chopper at all. I have previously looked for advice on this thread (police commandeering civilain helos) as to the constraints of the AOC on such activities.
We could not justify a police only machine of the 135/902 genre, hence my interest in low cost and multi agency solutions.
Thanks for your comments Thos, but I think you missed my point by a country mile