Low-timers and (un)employability
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Europe
1. I feel confident that nobody could seriously believe to find a SPIFR Job on a twin like a Bell 430 with 350h.
2. Nobody will believe that a owner of a multi-million bucks ship is ready to fly with a newbie
3. Insurance will start to laugh if they read the CV
If the guy will work as hard as up to time he will make his way and my be in a few years he is ready for a job like this.
To get the first 1000-1500h isn't easy.
@DC
There are some "little" differences between a light turbine ship and the jobs such helos have to do and one of the latest twins on SPIFR Ops off shore.
If the ship is at full sail, the 430 must be operated sometimes in foreign airspace and conditions. Expect the usual problems a newbie have never heard and can not imagine. Good luck!
@ John Eacott
You agree with me that is it perhaps possible to check out a 350h pilot on a BK 117 used on operations the new guy knowns in known area. And you personally know the guy and his manner to do the job! But i couldn't believe you will check out an unknown 350h pilot on one of your BKs only by his CV.
2. Nobody will believe that a owner of a multi-million bucks ship is ready to fly with a newbie
3. Insurance will start to laugh if they read the CV
If the guy will work as hard as up to time he will make his way and my be in a few years he is ready for a job like this.
To get the first 1000-1500h isn't easy.
@DC
There are some "little" differences between a light turbine ship and the jobs such helos have to do and one of the latest twins on SPIFR Ops off shore.
If the ship is at full sail, the 430 must be operated sometimes in foreign airspace and conditions. Expect the usual problems a newbie have never heard and can not imagine. Good luck!
@ John Eacott
You agree with me that is it perhaps possible to check out a 350h pilot on a BK 117 used on operations the new guy knowns in known area. And you personally know the guy and his manner to do the job! But i couldn't believe you will check out an unknown 350h pilot on one of your BKs only by his CV.
Last edited by tecpilot; 13th February 2004 at 15:03.
Joined: Aug 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 4,411
Likes: 83
From: Gold Coast, Australia
PP1,
Your statement:
"This is why we don't put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's...or in *any* commercial job for that matter."
I stand by my response, that "I do, I have, and I will continue to do so". I failed to elaborate, posting mid afternoon over a cup of coffee, but, mea culpa.
I've had the priviledge of putting one low time (c.200+hrs) piston only helicopter pilot into a JetRanger, after much assessment, discussion with our insurers (QBE Aviation, who have always been extremely supportive), and supervision. She is doing well, and moving steadily along a progressive path of more complex operations as her skills improve. Other helicopter pilots with <500 hours have started with a modicum of turbine time, but have progressed to eventually move on, to such as EMS, Police, etc. They are excellent pilots, and I am pleased for them.
On the fixed wing side, generally our pilots start with as little as 3-400hrs TT, and are able to fly well maintained machines, day & night, building up experience under good supervision, until they can move on to multi/IFR ops. Some have gone on to airlines, some to RFDS, all have gone with as sound a background of practical aviation as we can give. The alternative for too many young hopefuls these days is to be a hangar rat, taken advantage of by less scrupulous operators, and with a slim chance of getting to their chosen career.
Without some of us "older" f*rts giving back to the industry that which we have been lucky enough to get, there will be a dearth of good pilots coming through. I cannot see the advantage of denigrating a low time pilot simply because he or she has less than 1000 hours: some have developing skills which will put them ahead of you or I, given half a chance. None of us is perfect, but it behooves us to help the next generation, not hinder it.
Your statement:
"This is why we don't put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's...or in *any* commercial job for that matter."
I stand by my response, that "I do, I have, and I will continue to do so". I failed to elaborate, posting mid afternoon over a cup of coffee, but, mea culpa.
I've had the priviledge of putting one low time (c.200+hrs) piston only helicopter pilot into a JetRanger, after much assessment, discussion with our insurers (QBE Aviation, who have always been extremely supportive), and supervision. She is doing well, and moving steadily along a progressive path of more complex operations as her skills improve. Other helicopter pilots with <500 hours have started with a modicum of turbine time, but have progressed to eventually move on, to such as EMS, Police, etc. They are excellent pilots, and I am pleased for them.
On the fixed wing side, generally our pilots start with as little as 3-400hrs TT, and are able to fly well maintained machines, day & night, building up experience under good supervision, until they can move on to multi/IFR ops. Some have gone on to airlines, some to RFDS, all have gone with as sound a background of practical aviation as we can give. The alternative for too many young hopefuls these days is to be a hangar rat, taken advantage of by less scrupulous operators, and with a slim chance of getting to their chosen career.
Without some of us "older" f*rts giving back to the industry that which we have been lucky enough to get, there will be a dearth of good pilots coming through. I cannot see the advantage of denigrating a low time pilot simply because he or she has less than 1000 hours: some have developing skills which will put them ahead of you or I, given half a chance. None of us is perfect, but it behooves us to help the next generation, not hinder it.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 245
Likes: 5
From: longwayplace
Once More, Into the Breech
"La!La!La!La!La!La!La!La!I'm not listening to you!"La!La!La!La!....."
Come off it, folks!
This forum is a phenomenal resource for helicopter pilots, whatever the size of their log books. However, at moments such as this I feel that we let ourselves down.
The newcomers to this industry are rightly keen to ask for the low-down from those with a little time in the saddle. (It's something that would have been invaluable to the more seasoned among us, back in the dark days B.P. (Before PPRuNe!).
Now, if you do take your valuable time to reply, may I implore you to read on. It would be understandable to think that the truth were required when formulating one's reply, but I have observed that this is not so. It appears that in questions of the future and the possible rocky road ahead, the questioner expects, nay, demands that the reply delivers a warm and fuzzy feeling. To appease the hyper-sensitive, naive histrionics of the baying masses, much smoke need be blown up their collective arses.
Please understand. I am not referrring to the laudable mentoring/apprenticeship programs, such as that administered by Mr John Eacott. I'm very much aware of the effort and investment in people that these initiatives require, and it is due to people such as John that many fine, safety conscious pilots enter this industry. For this he deserves respect, not castigation.
That which I am specifically addressing is the original post. I still find it difficult to believe that people are prepared to countenance the idea of B99, sorry, B99's 350-hr friend assuming the role of Captain of a complex, IFR twin, engaged in international shipborne operations, with such a paucity of real world experience. It already reads like the introduction to an accident report.
Sure, many would love to get that gig as a first job, but the world isn't like that and the world owes not one of us a living.
Peace
Come off it, folks!
This forum is a phenomenal resource for helicopter pilots, whatever the size of their log books. However, at moments such as this I feel that we let ourselves down.
The newcomers to this industry are rightly keen to ask for the low-down from those with a little time in the saddle. (It's something that would have been invaluable to the more seasoned among us, back in the dark days B.P. (Before PPRuNe!).
Now, if you do take your valuable time to reply, may I implore you to read on. It would be understandable to think that the truth were required when formulating one's reply, but I have observed that this is not so. It appears that in questions of the future and the possible rocky road ahead, the questioner expects, nay, demands that the reply delivers a warm and fuzzy feeling. To appease the hyper-sensitive, naive histrionics of the baying masses, much smoke need be blown up their collective arses.
Please understand. I am not referrring to the laudable mentoring/apprenticeship programs, such as that administered by Mr John Eacott. I'm very much aware of the effort and investment in people that these initiatives require, and it is due to people such as John that many fine, safety conscious pilots enter this industry. For this he deserves respect, not castigation.
That which I am specifically addressing is the original post. I still find it difficult to believe that people are prepared to countenance the idea of B99, sorry, B99's 350-hr friend assuming the role of Captain of a complex, IFR twin, engaged in international shipborne operations, with such a paucity of real world experience. It already reads like the introduction to an accident report.
Sure, many would love to get that gig as a first job, but the world isn't like that and the world owes not one of us a living.
Peace
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
From: Canada/around
PPrune Fan #1 wrote:
Well, you've just shut down the entire Canadian helicopter industry. There are few IFR or multi-crew machines, limited military outflow, and a regulatory restriction against newly licenced pilots from instructing. Yet, we manage to have a flett of a little better than 1000 helicopters in the country. We all hire, mentor, and turn loose 100-hr R22 pilots year after year. We don't put then into SPIFR 430's but nor do we consider them incompetent.
Well spoken John,
is exactly what we need.
I still hold the position I earlier voiced that B99's friend should be careful in how he goes about pursuing this position or any other, but to say he is unemployable is laughable.
At the 350-hour level, nobody would've hired me as a PIC then, and nobody would now. In fact, to say that a 350-hour pilot could find employment as a PIC in this industry is simply preposterous, Eacott's LSD-induced hallucinating to the contrary. You fellows can dream all you want, but it won't make it so. Bravo 99's mate does not have "good qualifications." He has 350 total hours and sat in an AS-355 while he got his IR. He has done very little that would make me look at his resume twice. Maybe not even once.
Well spoken John,
Without some of us "older" f*rts giving back to the industry that which we have been lucky enough to get, there will be a dearth of good pilots coming through. I cannot see the advantage of denigrating a low time pilot simply because he or she has less than 1000 hours: some have developing skills which will put them ahead of you or I, given half a chance. None of us is perfect, but it behooves us to help the next generation, not hinder it.
I still hold the position I earlier voiced that B99's friend should be careful in how he goes about pursuing this position or any other, but to say he is unemployable is laughable.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
PP Fan - sorry, but to this chief pilot you're talking b*ll*cks.
"to say that a 350-hour pilot could find employment as a PIC in this industry is simply preposterous"
I could name you more than 20 right now, and probably half are on turbines. And what's the big deal about a twin anyway (up to say, AS 355 level)? It's just another engine, and you don't get the asymmetric problems you get in a fixed wing. If this idiot can haul missiles around a battlefield at 200 hours (in a turbine), then other people can move passengers around an oil patch. I know this - I would rather put a newbie in a 206 or even a 407 than a robbie (yeah, yeah, I know it has some good qualities, but a modern machine with a fadec can take a hell of a lot off the workload).
Despite what they tell you, most companies are insured for low-timers - they just don't want to spend money on training. Speaking personally, based on some of the activities I see around the fire circuit I would in many cases rather hire low-timers. They are certainly more careful - any bad habits they have are more often than not learned from people who should know better. A lot of high timers I know simply have a small amount of experience repeated several hundred times rather than a progressive learning curve.
I have flown with people who have 17,000 hours who I wouldn't trust on a bicycle, and people with 1000 whom I would trust with anything. Attitude and structured training are more important than just hours, and the sooner some parts of the industry and the idiot "consultants" that advise the customers otherwise realise this, the better off we will be.
Anyhow, the original post mentioned a boat - well, as with many things, it not the instrument but what you do with it that causes trouble, and mucking around offshore with rich people is not a job for someone who might have difficulty saying NO! (been there, done that)
Phil
"to say that a 350-hour pilot could find employment as a PIC in this industry is simply preposterous"
I could name you more than 20 right now, and probably half are on turbines. And what's the big deal about a twin anyway (up to say, AS 355 level)? It's just another engine, and you don't get the asymmetric problems you get in a fixed wing. If this idiot can haul missiles around a battlefield at 200 hours (in a turbine), then other people can move passengers around an oil patch. I know this - I would rather put a newbie in a 206 or even a 407 than a robbie (yeah, yeah, I know it has some good qualities, but a modern machine with a fadec can take a hell of a lot off the workload).
Despite what they tell you, most companies are insured for low-timers - they just don't want to spend money on training. Speaking personally, based on some of the activities I see around the fire circuit I would in many cases rather hire low-timers. They are certainly more careful - any bad habits they have are more often than not learned from people who should know better. A lot of high timers I know simply have a small amount of experience repeated several hundred times rather than a progressive learning curve.
I have flown with people who have 17,000 hours who I wouldn't trust on a bicycle, and people with 1000 whom I would trust with anything. Attitude and structured training are more important than just hours, and the sooner some parts of the industry and the idiot "consultants" that advise the customers otherwise realise this, the better off we will be.
Anyhow, the original post mentioned a boat - well, as with many things, it not the instrument but what you do with it that causes trouble, and mucking around offshore with rich people is not a job for someone who might have difficulty saying NO! (been there, done that)
Phil
Last edited by paco; 13th February 2004 at 21:52.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
From: UK
Well said Paco, Heloteacher, and especially John.
TO PPrune Fanny #1,
I`m glad you`ve noted the insults/criticism - they are well deserved. I hope you`re sitting comfortably on your quote "rosy red arse".
I couldn`t care less if you`ve got 10,000 or 30,000 hrs. It doesn`t mean anything. Attitude and professionalism - and knowing ones own personal limitations are what counts. You might have the latter - which is why you still grace the skies with your presence - but judging from your posts and the manner in which you deliver unthought out, ridiculous and frankly unfounded statements, indicates you have not an ounce of the first two.
The reason this industry is struggling at the moment is due to CPs and Ops Mgrs like you. More should take a leaf out of John`s book. The trouble is - they invest time, money and heartache into developing low time guys to get them industry ready.
AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS?
They get poached by a company with a CP like you - who wasn`t prepared to nurture the young inexperienced pilot, pay the insurance rates, accept the fact that YES a tail rotor strike MIGHT happen to this new guy - but they still do it. And that is why you get pilot resumes with 1000+ , because you don`t have the balls to take responsibility for the sub1000. If it weren`t for a few operators that do take that responsibility - this Industry would be in even more dire straits.
I know plenty of guys who got command VFR positions around the 2-300 mark - some even lower than that. Most of them on Turbines! It was their attitude etc that got them there - nothing to do with hours. Conversely, I have flown with pilots who have 4000, 6000, 12000 hrs.....who cares! I`ve had to take a deep breath on many occasion as to the danger they put themselves,crew and aircraft in - unneccesarily! Maybe they`re unconciously incompetent - I don`t know - it can happen to people at any stage in their career. The beauty is -- low time guys are conciously incompetent. They know they`re crap - which is the best position to be in.
It is plainly obvious that Braavo`s buddy would need a heck of a lot more experience to get such a job - that is what the industry demands for such a role - but that doesn`t mean he is incapable of doing it. The point I, and a lot of others take issue with is the comment "350hr Robbie pilot not ready for commercial work." I guess PP if you ran the CAA`s across the world you`d have everyone needing a full ATPL before being let loose. Yep, that would achieve a lot.
You keep on truckin there, sounds like you`re doing a fine job.
Decimal
Mods - this is well off topic, can Danny create a Jet Blast for rotorheads? or move this to a new thread? This thread is for job seekers - and they will only be disillusioned by this chief pilot who knows best.
I agree we're going well off topic, and I'll split it when I can find time. A 'Rotorheads Jetblast'? The only similarity with the type of posts on Jetblast is silly personal attacks on people with opposing opinions. Heliport
TO PPrune Fanny #1,
I`m glad you`ve noted the insults/criticism - they are well deserved. I hope you`re sitting comfortably on your quote "rosy red arse".
I couldn`t care less if you`ve got 10,000 or 30,000 hrs. It doesn`t mean anything. Attitude and professionalism - and knowing ones own personal limitations are what counts. You might have the latter - which is why you still grace the skies with your presence - but judging from your posts and the manner in which you deliver unthought out, ridiculous and frankly unfounded statements, indicates you have not an ounce of the first two.
The reason this industry is struggling at the moment is due to CPs and Ops Mgrs like you. More should take a leaf out of John`s book. The trouble is - they invest time, money and heartache into developing low time guys to get them industry ready.
AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS?
They get poached by a company with a CP like you - who wasn`t prepared to nurture the young inexperienced pilot, pay the insurance rates, accept the fact that YES a tail rotor strike MIGHT happen to this new guy - but they still do it. And that is why you get pilot resumes with 1000+ , because you don`t have the balls to take responsibility for the sub1000. If it weren`t for a few operators that do take that responsibility - this Industry would be in even more dire straits.
I know plenty of guys who got command VFR positions around the 2-300 mark - some even lower than that. Most of them on Turbines! It was their attitude etc that got them there - nothing to do with hours. Conversely, I have flown with pilots who have 4000, 6000, 12000 hrs.....who cares! I`ve had to take a deep breath on many occasion as to the danger they put themselves,crew and aircraft in - unneccesarily! Maybe they`re unconciously incompetent - I don`t know - it can happen to people at any stage in their career. The beauty is -- low time guys are conciously incompetent. They know they`re crap - which is the best position to be in.
It is plainly obvious that Braavo`s buddy would need a heck of a lot more experience to get such a job - that is what the industry demands for such a role - but that doesn`t mean he is incapable of doing it. The point I, and a lot of others take issue with is the comment "350hr Robbie pilot not ready for commercial work." I guess PP if you ran the CAA`s across the world you`d have everyone needing a full ATPL before being let loose. Yep, that would achieve a lot.
You keep on truckin there, sounds like you`re doing a fine job.
Decimal
Mods - this is well off topic, can Danny create a Jet Blast for rotorheads? or move this to a new thread? This thread is for job seekers - and they will only be disillusioned by this chief pilot who knows best.
I agree we're going well off topic, and I'll split it when I can find time. A 'Rotorheads Jetblast'? The only similarity with the type of posts on Jetblast is silly personal attacks on people with opposing opinions. Heliport
Last edited by Heliport; 15th February 2004 at 17:51.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
Likes: 17
From: U.K.
PPF#1, so how do you suggest a newly qualified commercial pilot gets the hours up? Instructing? Far more dangerous than going from A to B in something like a jet ranger.
There are very few Multi crew jobs outside of the north sea (JCB excepted), so if someone with 350 Hrs is so incompetent, why did the licencing authority give them a ticket?
Good on you John, I'm glad to see there are still some good and sensible people in this industry, despite muppets like PPF#1.
There are very few Multi crew jobs outside of the north sea (JCB excepted), so if someone with 350 Hrs is so incompetent, why did the licencing authority give them a ticket?
Good on you John, I'm glad to see there are still some good and sensible people in this industry, despite muppets like PPF#1.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Europe
Sorry guys, a lot of you says that it isn't a great deal to fly a single turbine or a twin turbine. That's right, it's simple!
I can teach any low timer, any PPL Pilot in 1 or 2 weeks to fly the ship manually, to know the FM. But what's impossible in a few weeks?
TO TEACH EXPERIENCE!!!
What is experience? Experience is important and life saving in our job! Experience ist the hope and the chance in changing and challenging situations to react, to valuate and to survive.
like Sir J.Herschel:
"Experience may be acquired in two ways; either, first by noticing facts without any attempt to influence the frequency of their occurrence or to vary the circumstances under which they occur; this is observation; or, secondly, by putting in action causes or agents over which we have control or we have no control, and purposely varying their combinations, and noticing what effects take place; this is experiment"
I could not believe that some of you guys will prefer the "experiment"? I don't valuate to high the flighthours of an applicant. It's important to have the necessary knowledge of the business or the potentiality to learn the job under controlled circumstances.
The experiment to push a low timer in a SPIFR-off shore-international operation is crazy. The suicide begins with the correct weather go-nogo selfmade decision via equipment failure off shore to thousands unpredictable points.
I wouldn't allow a 350h pilot, for example, to fly VFR on a long night trip, self flight and weather prepared, crossing several weather areas in the european winter without an experienced supervision pilot. Have often seen the wide and white eyes of unexperienced pilots at night if all of a sudden the aft position lights could be seen in front of the a/c (reflection in the clouds) and the wiper begins to icing, followed by the pax question: How many time we need to destination? You know i have a real important date!
To avoid (first rule) and inside such situations you need more than manually flight skills.
Haven't seen in the last 20 years to much newbies they could handle the pressure of owner/boss/chief...
I can teach any low timer, any PPL Pilot in 1 or 2 weeks to fly the ship manually, to know the FM. But what's impossible in a few weeks?
TO TEACH EXPERIENCE!!!
What is experience? Experience is important and life saving in our job! Experience ist the hope and the chance in changing and challenging situations to react, to valuate and to survive.
like Sir J.Herschel:
"Experience may be acquired in two ways; either, first by noticing facts without any attempt to influence the frequency of their occurrence or to vary the circumstances under which they occur; this is observation; or, secondly, by putting in action causes or agents over which we have control or we have no control, and purposely varying their combinations, and noticing what effects take place; this is experiment"
I could not believe that some of you guys will prefer the "experiment"? I don't valuate to high the flighthours of an applicant. It's important to have the necessary knowledge of the business or the potentiality to learn the job under controlled circumstances.
The experiment to push a low timer in a SPIFR-off shore-international operation is crazy. The suicide begins with the correct weather go-nogo selfmade decision via equipment failure off shore to thousands unpredictable points.
I wouldn't allow a 350h pilot, for example, to fly VFR on a long night trip, self flight and weather prepared, crossing several weather areas in the european winter without an experienced supervision pilot. Have often seen the wide and white eyes of unexperienced pilots at night if all of a sudden the aft position lights could be seen in front of the a/c (reflection in the clouds) and the wiper begins to icing, followed by the pax question: How many time we need to destination? You know i have a real important date!
To avoid (first rule) and inside such situations you need more than manually flight skills.
Haven't seen in the last 20 years to much newbies they could handle the pressure of owner/boss/chief...
Last edited by tecpilot; 14th February 2004 at 05:43.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 3,130
Likes: 17
From: U.K.
Tecpilot, very true. No sensible person would advocate sending an inexperienced person into a dodgy situation such as night VFR (Man, I hate that. I cannot believe it's legal.) if they haven't at least experienced it before or have a safety pilot with them.
My issue is that PPF#1 is slagging off John Eacott for having a very sensible scheme that allows people to build up their experience under supervision. I wish more companies did that. I know I would have/still would have benefitted from that.
My issue is that PPF#1 is slagging off John Eacott for having a very sensible scheme that allows people to build up their experience under supervision. I wish more companies did that. I know I would have/still would have benefitted from that.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
All this stuff about 350 hour PIC etc got me thinking about my own experiences. So I got the old logbooks out.
At TT 350 hrs (115 of those on ab-initio jet fixed wing) I was given captaincy on a twin turbine, 7,000 kg helicopter. By 380 hrs TT, I was let loose by myself to fly the army in the Central American Jungle.
Still safely here, after some 24 years of continuous flying employment later.
But I do think I would have needed a bit more time to be based on a boat. Even more if it was dark...
$hit, I just agreed with PF#1!
SAS, what this JCB thing? Aren't they diggers? Why do you need 2 pilots to drive a digger?
At TT 350 hrs (115 of those on ab-initio jet fixed wing) I was given captaincy on a twin turbine, 7,000 kg helicopter. By 380 hrs TT, I was let loose by myself to fly the army in the Central American Jungle.
Still safely here, after some 24 years of continuous flying employment later.
But I do think I would have needed a bit more time to be based on a boat. Even more if it was dark...
$hit, I just agreed with PF#1!
SAS, what this JCB thing? Aren't they diggers? Why do you need 2 pilots to drive a digger?
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 396
Likes: 1
From: US...for now.
Longest post ever? (Not even edited, either.)
Hoo-boy! Aren't you a touchy lot!
Power Up:
Well...this *is* a forum for professional pilots, so your "opioin" (whatever that is) is worthless. And even when you get your CPL your opioin will still be worthless. Because you're not a professional until you do it for money.
...Flies PIC as a commercial pilot with just a CPL? Bull.
Don't worry, sonny, I can assure you that with *your* attitude, I would never let you into my cockpit, much less even point out to you which one is the cyclic. Now go back to the "wannabe's" forum where your opioin might have some weight, and leave *this* forum to the professionals because you have nothing constructive to add here. NEXT!
Dynamic Component:
Liar. You flew commercially in a turbine helicopter with 160 hours total time?? Nope. Uh-uh. That's just a flat, out-and-out, baldfaced lie. NEXT!
Sez Eacott:
She is doing well?? Good God, there's an accident waiting to happen. John, you're not just asking for trouble, you're begging for it! Then again, if you did actually put a chippie in as a command pilot of a 206, I'm sure you don't have to beg her for anything. 
And hey John, you sound noble. If you want to take on such huge risks, go right ahead. But you know...I mean you KNOW that there is no substitute for flight time. Would you have hired *yourself* with only 160 hours total time? I thought not. Turn a girl loose in a JR with only 200 hours? That's pure idiocy. Ferry flights....maybe. But what else can she do? Charter? Longline? EMS? Oh yeah. Not! NEXT!
For the Canadian view of things, this from Helo Teacher:
But they are. Of course you can turn a Robbie pilot loose with 100 hours. But not as a working pilot. Not even with 200 hours! If that were true, then Frank Robinson would have to divert his entire production run of R-22's to Canadian schools, which would have students lined up out the door and around the block. Another fabrication. NEXT!
Then there's Taco. Ahhhh, Taco:
Good Lord, do you guys even READ what you write? I'll give you one thing, Taco, you got that self-assessment thing down pat. You were referring to yourself about carrying missiles around battlefields, no? But 200-hour oil field pilots? OH YEAH! Dream on, McDuff. NEXT!
Decimal:
They crash.
Yes and they MIGHT kill themselves and they MIGHT be carrying passengers when they do it and I MIGHT not want to have that on my conscience (see: Omniflight EMS helicopter crash on 9/9/02 and thread about same on this very board).
You're taking one thing and making a huge leap to another. I never said any such thing- only that 350-hour Robbie pilots are unemployable as commercial, professional PIC's. Don't go putting words in my mouth, Dec. NEXT!
Finally, the inimitable Bravo 99. This guy is some piece of work!:
4500 hours of sitting in front of a computer playing Flight Sim that is.
Well now my boots are quaking! Gee, I better not ever return to Mother England, lest I happen into a pub and hear, "So YOU'RE the number one PPRUNE FAN, eh????" right before some twit conks a beer bottle over me noggin. Oh wait- I'll never run into Bravo 99's "friend" in a pub. I don't go in gay bars!
Yes, can't wait for him to get here and post his opioin. Bravo, you should save all that macho, blustery junior high school posturing for...well, for your little junior high school friends. It might work with them.
Well you *did* course it, so we might as well let it run its cause. Why? Just because, of course.
Guys, guys, guys...enough. It's one thing to offer encouragement to newbies. Yeah, that's great. But to lie to them and say that it is possible to obtain employement as a commercial pilot with well under 500 hours is just dishonest. It's not reality. It's fantasy. Perhaps if you knew the guy from day one, had monitored his training, and could give some continuous "hands-on" mentoring (like Eacott must be doing to that bird), then it might be possible. But if a guy shows up on my doorstep with 350 hours total time (most of it in Robbies) and I don't know him from Adam but he's got this stellar recommendation from "someone" who calls himself Bravo 99... I'd say, "Hit the bricks, sailor, we've no need for your sort 'round here. Move along."
Let's face it, someone with less than 500 hours is simply not going to be doing the things that people pay us to do with helicopters. EMS? Not on your life. ENG? Same thing. Charter? Are you joking? In the U.S., you can't even do charters under FAR 135 with less than 500 hours. Tours/rides? Not into and out of a confined area...and not with *MY* helicopter.
That leaves the odd ferry flight or maintenance test hop. But most low-timers I've met couldn't detect or quantify a high-freq vibration even with a tuning fork stuck up their bum. So...send a newbie out to do a track&balance? Nope.
Make all the comparisons you want about how little flight time you military guys had when you were turned loose as "captain" of your aircraft. It's apples and foosballs, and does not equate in the real world (you know, the one with real risks that insurance companies have to cover). So let's drop this pretense.
My original question was whether Bravo 99 honestly thought his "friend" was competent and qualified to fly a 430 off a boat. We now know that Bravo 99 believes that he is. We now know a little bit more about Bravo 99 than we did before...and about some of you lot as well. The rest of us...the ones who really know about this business, sit back, shake our heads and just go, "Boy, there sure are a lot of stupid people out there."
Power Up:
So as a newie / wannabe in helicopters, I or any other students are not allowed to read / post opioins on a professionals forum such as this
So as I qualify with a CPL, you believe that I cannot operate a B206 as PIC? - I already know a guy who does.
Personally (don't know if anyone agrees), you sound arrogant, and suffer from quite an ego, even with your number of hours, I don't think I would want to fly with you.
Dynamic Component:
I guess it does not count that I got my first commercial job AS PIC in a TURBINE with 160 hrs.
Sez Eacott:
I've had the priviledge of putting one low time (c.200+hrs) piston only helicopter pilot into a JetRanger, after much assessment, discussion with our insurers (QBE Aviation, who have always been extremely supportive), and supervision. She is doing well, and moving steadily along a progressive path of more complex operations as her skills improve.
And hey John, you sound noble. If you want to take on such huge risks, go right ahead. But you know...I mean you KNOW that there is no substitute for flight time. Would you have hired *yourself* with only 160 hours total time? I thought not. Turn a girl loose in a JR with only 200 hours? That's pure idiocy. Ferry flights....maybe. But what else can she do? Charter? Longline? EMS? Oh yeah. Not! NEXT!
For the Canadian view of things, this from Helo Teacher:
We all hire, mentor, and turn loose 100-hr R22 pilots year after year. We don't put then into SPIFR 430's but nor do we consider them incompetent.
Then there's Taco. Ahhhh, Taco:
If this idiot can haul missiles around a battlefield at 200 hours (in a turbine), then other people can move passengers around an oil patch.
Decimal:
The reason this industry is struggling at the moment is due to CPs and Ops Mgrs like you. More should take a leaf out of John`s book. The trouble is - they invest time, money and heartache into developing low time guys to get them industry ready. AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS?
They get poached by a company with a CP like you - who wasn`t prepared to nurture the young inexperienced pilot, pay the insurance rates, accept the fact that YES a tail rotor strike MIGHT happen to this new guy-
The point I, and a lot of others take issue with is the comment "350hr Robbie pilot not ready for commercial work." I guess PP if you ran the CAA`s across the world you`d have everyone needing a full ATPL before being let loose.
Finally, the inimitable Bravo 99. This guy is some piece of work!:
I answer only one quistion that is no we are not one in the same and yes my log book goes into 4500 hours.
I HAVE JUST READ A LITTLE FURTHER THIS P PRUNE WHAT EVER HE CALLS HIM SELF. THIS GUY IS A COMPLETE !!!! AND WANTS DECKING
DONT COME TO THE UK AND SAY THAT TO MY 350 HOUR FRIEND HE I AM SURE WOULD DRAG YOUR HEART OUT BY HIS BARE HANDS
DONT COME TO THE UK AND SAY THAT TO MY 350 HOUR FRIEND HE I AM SURE WOULD DRAG YOUR HEART OUT BY HIS BARE HANDS
O AND BY THE WAY HE IS FREQUENCY ADAPTOR AND HIS
COMPUTER IS DOWN BUT I HAD A LITTLE CHAT AND HE IS ITCHING TO RESPOND SO HEADS UP FOR MONDAY I THINK IT WILL BE AN INTERESTING RESPONCE
COMPUTER IS DOWN BUT I HAD A LITTLE CHAT AND HE IS ITCHING TO RESPOND SO HEADS UP FOR MONDAY I THINK IT WILL BE AN INTERESTING RESPONCE
i did not think that a simple reply would course world war three
Guys, guys, guys...enough. It's one thing to offer encouragement to newbies. Yeah, that's great. But to lie to them and say that it is possible to obtain employement as a commercial pilot with well under 500 hours is just dishonest. It's not reality. It's fantasy. Perhaps if you knew the guy from day one, had monitored his training, and could give some continuous "hands-on" mentoring (like Eacott must be doing to that bird
), then it might be possible. But if a guy shows up on my doorstep with 350 hours total time (most of it in Robbies) and I don't know him from Adam but he's got this stellar recommendation from "someone" who calls himself Bravo 99... I'd say, "Hit the bricks, sailor, we've no need for your sort 'round here. Move along."Let's face it, someone with less than 500 hours is simply not going to be doing the things that people pay us to do with helicopters. EMS? Not on your life. ENG? Same thing. Charter? Are you joking? In the U.S., you can't even do charters under FAR 135 with less than 500 hours. Tours/rides? Not into and out of a confined area...and not with *MY* helicopter.
That leaves the odd ferry flight or maintenance test hop. But most low-timers I've met couldn't detect or quantify a high-freq vibration even with a tuning fork stuck up their bum. So...send a newbie out to do a track&balance? Nope.
Make all the comparisons you want about how little flight time you military guys had when you were turned loose as "captain" of your aircraft. It's apples and foosballs, and does not equate in the real world (you know, the one with real risks that insurance companies have to cover). So let's drop this pretense.
My original question was whether Bravo 99 honestly thought his "friend"
was competent and qualified to fly a 430 off a boat. We now know that Bravo 99 believes that he is. We now know a little bit more about Bravo 99 than we did before...and about some of you lot as well. The rest of us...the ones who really know about this business, sit back, shake our heads and just go, "Boy, there sure are a lot of stupid people out there."
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
From: AZ
You could probably teach a monkey to fly at 150 hrs. It is the decision making that determines the odds if a pilot will crash or not. A timid pilot will last much longer than a cocky a$$hole. All and all a 500 hr robbie pilot could do just as well if not better than a 1000 hr military pilot. Again its not the hours that count, its the decisions made up stairs.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 325
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Jet blast for Rotorheads.....
Now thats a novel idea and may well be a well patronised [spelt with a "s"] Forum.
What do the rest of the regular Rotorheads think???
And no, Heliport don't go shuffling this thread elsewhere, we can sort out our little differences. [I hope].
What do the rest of the regular Rotorheads think???
And no, Heliport don't go shuffling this thread elsewhere, we can sort out our little differences. [I hope].
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
From: AUS
This thread is the most fun I have had in a long time. And in this case I gues I would have to agree with a lot of what PPF is saying, Or the spirit of it anyway.I started with a company that hires pilots with bare cpl's and puts them into 44's and 47's but in a very structured environment. Lots of extra training and thay are closely monitored. For the first 5-600 hours they do the same flight ( yep 1 flight) over and over and over. No off field landings and just the occassional ferry
When they transition to a turbine, about 1000- 1200 they go back to the same scenic for another 50- 100 hours.
THe company in question has got an excellent safety record but I know for sure that would change straight away if they put their low hour pilots straight into jet rangers and sent them into the bush without all the training and supervision.
I think there is a good reason that there is very few jobs available to low hour pilots in this industry and that is that they are not really capable of doing them. sad but true
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,018
Likes: 73
From: Pewsey, UK
ShyT:
I think your experience is most telling. Take an ab-initio pilot, train them fully and properly, then supervise them on tasks within their limits. If you haven't trained them, supervise them even more closely. And even when they're supposedly fully trained and competent, supervise them !
I think your experience is most telling. Take an ab-initio pilot, train them fully and properly, then supervise them on tasks within their limits. If you haven't trained them, supervise them even more closely. And even when they're supposedly fully trained and competent, supervise them !
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Europe
@overpitched
That's the proper way! Build up experience under controlled circumstances and in limited environment, within sight by the colleagues and experienced fellows.
Military transitioned me to helicopters after 100h FW, direct to the helo twins, i have flown my first single helo with 800h twin hours. I made a/c commander on real missions, not on training flights, with 400h. But single or twin, it makes no difference. I was a bloody rooky! Sometimes i was really thrilled about things could happen under the blue sky, outside the class room. It's a slight advantage to have the military flight drill with all the formations, off fields, emergencies, sling loads, nights, sims, instruments, ... in a row compared to the civ training. And don't forget, in the army you start any action controlled by your crew chief, meteorologist, CO, ...
That's the proper way! Build up experience under controlled circumstances and in limited environment, within sight by the colleagues and experienced fellows.
Military transitioned me to helicopters after 100h FW, direct to the helo twins, i have flown my first single helo with 800h twin hours. I made a/c commander on real missions, not on training flights, with 400h. But single or twin, it makes no difference. I was a bloody rooky! Sometimes i was really thrilled about things could happen under the blue sky, outside the class room. It's a slight advantage to have the military flight drill with all the formations, off fields, emergencies, sling loads, nights, sims, instruments, ... in a row compared to the civ training. And don't forget, in the army you start any action controlled by your crew chief, meteorologist, CO, ...