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Low-timers and (un)employability

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Old 10th Feb 2004, 05:38
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Job afloat!

PPRUNE FAN#1 has very helpfully started a new thread (See below - 15 Feb). The discussion which was provoked by his reservations about a low-time / inexperienced pilot applying for the type of job mentioned in this post detracted from the purpose of the 'Jobs' thread.
I've moved the discussion posts here, leaving the 'Jobs' thread for the purpose for which it's intended.

Heliport


===================



I have been invited to find a pilot for a Bell 430 to be based on the back of a luxury yacht based in the Mediterranean. The pilot would be expected to carry out the duties of a crew member when not required for flying.
If there are any Bell 430 globetrotters out there, get in contact for details of the package.

Beware of weasels.

Last edited by Heliport; 15th Feb 2004 at 17:20.
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Old 11th Feb 2004, 07:20
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Bravo99:
Know of a AS355 with an IR driver who would type to the machine but he is a little low on hours
he would do it if interested give me a shout and i will forward his details
B99, is this the guy you're talking about? From an earlier post in another thread...
I have a friend with 60 hours twin squirrel I.R, F.I 27 hours 206 crm remaining time on R22 but only 350 hours total and he is in the same position
Are you seriously suggesting that your friend, with 350 hours TT would be qualified to take a position flying a Bell 430 off a boat? Do you think that someone who is rich enough to own a boat big enough to carry a helicopter would hire a pilot with so little experience? Do you think that there is an insurance company on the planet that would cover him? I find that astounding. I mean, I understand that you must like your friend and want to find him a job, but let's get serious...
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Old 11th Feb 2004, 13:10
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PPRUNE FAN#1

I think you are in the same boat as me in answering your own questions:
I DON'T KNOW

So why not let him apply and see what happens, a fellow pilot is trying to network for another - instead of slating hiim to the ground, why not show some interest and wish him luck.
The worst that can happen is that they say no, and hopefully Bravo99 would be able to come back and tell us he state of play. May help keep us informed of the current market.
I know I would be interested to hear, especially as I am still in training.
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Old 11th Feb 2004, 15:28
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Devil

Bravo 99


By the way i notice that you are from the US
(speaks for its self I think)


He is making a point about the serious lack of experiance and flight time your friend has, with respect to this B430 position.
I don't think your derogatory innuendo to his nationality helps.
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Old 12th Feb 2004, 01:29
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Devil

Bravo 99: Might be the end of YOUR comments! You are obviously as inexperienced as your friend. He was not being slated rather advised not to make a fool of himself by applying for such a corporate position: SPIFR B430 needs alot of experiance, especially on the multi-engine time! PP FAN #1 was asserting that point..in the nicest way!
However, if you have 'ISSUES' with some US pilots, please share them so that we may either agree/disagree, be educated by your experiance, or perhaps educate you by some of the answers you will most likely receive!
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Old 12th Feb 2004, 04:14
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polar bear,

can you imagine a guy from the department trying to do a ramp check on you on the boat? Pull up in his rubber dingy and asks for permission to come abord?

sounds like a job for you!

although , you have a cushy enough number as it is! think you could cope with the slownes of a 430?
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Old 12th Feb 2004, 05:38
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Devil

Whatsarunaway- That would be hilarious....ramped check on a boat in the middle of the Med.......I wonder how the duty times would apply?? But then the B430 is an ok ship.......Bell could have improved a few areas....over their perceived competition!
Starting with the SCAS and moving up!!!

B-99 Hope your buddy gets a job, but I'd be amazed if it was SPIFR on a B430! Fly safe!
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Old 12th Feb 2004, 13:17
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Bravo 99

Good luck with your mate, hope his time, effort and money pays off. An IR with such little time and a multi rating - personally quite impressed.
Will have to consider the FI ticket.
Considering doing FAA tickets and IR aswell as they are fairly cheap (by comparison), but don't know how that would fair in the UK market (conidering the some experience is better than none approach).

Helipolarbear

In all fairness - don't ask, don't get, it may be a long shot for B99 pal, but it is still a shot in the tight industry.
And judging from the remarks that I have seen PPRUNEFAN#1 make before, he couldn't make a comment in the 'nicest possible way' if he tried.
If everyone was as harsh as he is, he would scare people away from even considering trying to join the industry - or is that his aim? - must be a bl00by conspiracy
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Old 12th Feb 2004, 17:19
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There is another consideration.

I know in the past I have found it frustrating to have very low-time pilots pestering me (and my colleagues have felt the same) with resumes and endless phone calls about a job they know dam well they don't have the experience for. At least one guy I can think of right now will never get the job no matter how many hours he gets, his persistence saw to that.

I'm glad I'm not in that part of the business any more.

Never forget to use discretion as well.
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Old 12th Feb 2004, 20:26
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Bravo 99 raged:
If the guy can get a multi heli instrument rating with 270 hours when he started then he cannot be all that bad I like my collegue previous am only trying to help a fellow pilot not take the piss i thought there was supposed to be a bond in aviation but thats only me of the old school
by the way have you got a UK IR multi instrument rating by any chance
just out of cureosity
this guy needs a job and having invested and achieved the results i take my hat off to him
take the piss all you like but do it on the planks page and leave proper pilots to try to help others
Hey, I take my hat off to your friend too! But I wasn't trying to start a fight. I was merely curious as to whether other professional (i.e. working) helicopter pilots thought that a guy with very low time- and most of it in an R-22- would be qualified for a job flying a 430 off a boat (note that the ad said nothing about it being a two-pilot job). See, I do a bit of hiring in this business, and hadn't thought that the industry had gotten to that point. And as evidenced by the posts from ELITEHELICOPTERS and Helipolarbear, it hasn't. Yet.

Bravo, I'm glad you're trying to help your friend. But a whopping 60 hours in an AS-355 does not make him a command PIC in one, nor does it even make him a competent multi-engine helo pilot. The fact that you think so tells me that you are either not a commercial helicopter pilot or you know very, very little about this business- no offense intended.
By the way i notice that you are from the US
(speaks for its self I think)
OUCH! Cut me to the quick, you did! But speaking of quick, I wouldn't be so quick to mention speaking. Here in the U.S., I notice that many people know how to spell and use punctuation, and use proper grammar. Perhaps English (and apparently Aviation) is not your first language, so I am willing to make some allowances.

Good day, sir!
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Old 13th Feb 2004, 00:34
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Bravo 99

I am not an American pilot, but like other on this thread I would be intersted in reading your reasons for despising Mr Lappos, Mr Coyle, Mr SAS and their cronies. Such a gross generalisation suggests a rather major chip on one's shoulder (You firemen are a sensitive lot, aren't you!?)

I am well aware that it is fashionable to denigrate any and all comments by our fellow Rotorhead, Mr PPRUNE FAN#1, but I find it hard to believe that you "freak" when he posts that which everyone with half a years worth of real-world experience was thinking.

PS Would I be correct in thinking that you and your friend are one and the same person???
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Old 13th Feb 2004, 04:42
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Power Up:
And judging from the remarks that I have seen PPRUNEFAN#1 make before, he couldn't make a comment in the 'nicest possible way' if he tried.
If everyone was as harsh as he is, he would scare people away from even considering trying to join the industry - or is that his aim? - must be a bl00by conspiracy.
Now hold on there, newbie. If you are as you say still in training, then you don't know your arse from a hole in the ground about aviation. So here's a little clue for you: Most accidents are STILL the result of "human factors" (our politically-correct, modern way of saying PILOT error).

Over the years, I have seen pilots make some tremendous, idiotic mistakes. Over the years, *I* have made some tremendous, idiotic mistakes. I am hard on other pilots, but I am equally as hard if not more so on myself. I do not tend to absolve pilots of their responsibility for their actions.

Take the case of that nitwit in the U.K. who crashed his Gazelle recently whilst making an off-airport landing. He didn't do a proper recon, didn't see wires in his approach path, and then when he *did* finally see them, he yanked back on the cyclic so hard that he cut his own tailboom off! And everyone here on this board clucks their tongues and goes, "Oh, poor chap, bad bit o'luck there, eh what?" I say: HEY DUMBA$S, LEARN TO FLY A HELICOPTER!

In the U.S. a couple of weeks ago, we had an EMS BK-117 crash. The pilot inadvertently flew into IMC, must have gotten spatially disoriented and got the ship inverted at <1000' agl. Somehow...miraculously, he managed to get it back right-side-up just before hitting the ground. Somehow...miraculously, everybody onboard lived instead of dying an awful death. And instead of thanking God to be alive, our hero pilot started deflecting the blame away from himself. It wasn't his fault, oh no. It was the fact that he didn't have radar! Yeah, that's it.

Jesus H. Christ! Give me a big, fat break. The unmitigated gall!

Harsh? Yes. Needlessly harsh? Heck, no.

I have learnt many things the hard way in this business...things that I could (and should) have learned from the various manuals and texts available to me and every other pilot. Have I crashed any helicopters? Not yet, knock wood. But what I've learnt is that flying helicopters is all about risk management, and pilots are right horrible risk managers sometimes.

This is a board by definition is "...A haven for professional helicopter pilots to discuss the things that affect them." It is not a place for "wannabes" to come to bask in warm/fuzzy feelings of camaraderie and friendship.

Aviation is cruel. It does not tolerate incompetence for long. This is especially true in helicopters, which are incredibly critical and unforgiving of lapses in judgement or attention. This is why we don't put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's...or in *any* commercial job for that matter.

When supposedly experienced, knowledgeable pilots stop crashing perfectly good helicopters for no damn reason, then I'll stop being so "harsh."

Bomber ARIS to Bravo 99:
PS Would I be correct in thinking that you and your friend are one and the same person???
Hoo-man, do great minds think alike or what!
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Old 13th Feb 2004, 07:13
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TO Professional Prick Fan #1

Well I`ve had to bit my lip on many occasion reading your pathetic little banter, and now I`ve had it.

Quote

This is why we don't put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's...or in *any* commercial job for that matter.

You`re saying that a 350hr R22 pilot should not enter the commercial field. You need a wake up call. I bet you trained on 300`s.

I cannot believe you have a commercial job with you`re attitude. You assume to much. If you do - I would suggest you are the most unpopular guy in the hangar - and if you really are as idiotic in your statements as you are on this forum, then surely the industry would have filtered out twats like you by now.

Bravo`s mate, quite rightly has good qualifications - and networking is the only way to get a helo job these days. If you have a job, I`d be interested to know what you`re qualfications were when you were hired and what you`re first job was. But then again, you`ve been asked that before on this forum - and you`ve given no response. I tell you my response sunshine - you`re full of SH1TE!!

With your attitude on this forum and the apparent reflection on your daily life, indicates YOU DO NOT BELONG IN THIS INDUSTRY!

I have not seen anyone in favour of your opinions or statements on this forum - I suggest you go to the model helicopter worlds forum.

Oh, and by the way - you are the reason people on this forum have a disjointed view of US pilots. Crying shame - cos I think they`re a damn good bunch of guys

Decimal

PS Dear Mods, please accept my apologies for this, but I think you`ll agree this is a long time coming - I don`t mind if you ban me - there`s plenty of other sites where PP 4 inch doesn`t exist.
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Old 13th Feb 2004, 09:49
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What is it with you eejits? Not that I really know ****e from shoe polish but the Prune Fan Number One really hasn't come up with anything on this forum which you wouldn't expect or respect from the average Chief Pilot of any reputable organisation. Firm but fair if you ask me. But hell what do I know.

Ergo no ego.
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Old 13th Feb 2004, 09:51
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Thumbs down

The gospel according to PP#1:

"Aviation is cruel. It does not tolerate incompetence for long. This is especially true in helicopters, which are incredibly critical and unforgiving of lapses in judgement or attention. This is why we don't put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's...or in *any* commercial job for that matter."

Well I do, I have, and I will continue to do so. How on earth do you expect our industry to advance and prosper with such stone age attitudes as expounded by PP#1.

There are times when you really do put your foot in it, PP, and this is yet another one.
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Old 13th Feb 2004, 09:57
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10,000 Hour Party anyone - don't be late now!
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Old 13th Feb 2004, 10:02
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Wink 10,000 Hour Party anyone - don't be late now!

Not this weekend, dear, I've got a headache
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Old 13th Feb 2004, 13:03
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Let's tie up a few loose ends...I mentioned that we do not put 350-hour Robbie pilots in Bell 430's or in *any* commercial helicopter flying job for that matter. I thought that most people were intelligent enough to realize that I meant "as PIC." Well, maybe not. John Eacott weighed in:
Well I do, I have, and I will continue to do so. How on earth do you expect our industry to advance and prosper with such stone age attitudes as expounded by PP#1.
Get real, John. I used to respect you. But if you expect any of us to believe that you would put a 350-hour Robbie pilot as a PIC in a turbine, you're out of your mind. Say, uh...which insurance company do you use?


Decimal:
You`re saying that a 350hr R22 pilot should not enter the commercial field. You need a wake up call. I bet you trained on 300`s.

I cannot believe you have a commercial job with you`re attitude. You assume to much. If you do - I would suggest you are the most unpopular guy in the hangar - and if you really are as idiotic in your statements as you are on this forum, then surely the industry would have filtered out twats like you by now.

Bravo`s mate, quite rightly has good qualifications - and networking is the only way to get a helo job these days. If you have a job, I`d be interested to know what you`re qualfications were when you were hired and what you`re first job was. But then again, you`ve been asked that before on this forum - and you`ve given no response. I tell you my response sunshine - you`re full of SH1TE!!

With your attitude on this forum and the apparent reflection on your daily life, indicates YOU DO NOT BELONG IN THIS INDUSTRY!
Gee, I guess the 20+ years and 10,000+ accident-free hours I've spent in this industry must be all fake, eh? Or a fluke? Yeah, I don't know what I'm talking about!

For the record, I emigrated to the U.S. in the early 1970's, where I did my helo training in Bell 47's...old "straight" G-models with Franklin engines that we flew in the summertime with the throttle wide-open...the type of ship that makes today's R-22 seem like a veritable powerhouse. As a dual-rated, civilian-trained pilot, my first helicopter flying job was as an SIC until I possessed 1,000 hours at which time I became a PIC. I knew I was good, but also knew I wasn't that good. My ego kept getting me close to crashing, but my humility kept me from going completely there. And you know what? Unlike a lot of you so-called (and self-described) "experts," helicopters keep teaching me stuff. Because I always want to keep learning from them.

At the 350-hour level, nobody would've hired me as a PIC then, and nobody would now. In fact, to say that a 350-hour pilot could find employment as a PIC in this industry is simply preposterous, Eacott's LSD-induced hallucinating to the contrary. You fellows can dream all you want, but it won't make it so. Bravo 99's mate does not have "good qualifications." He has 350 total hours and sat in an AS-355 while he got his IR. He has done very little that would make me look at his resume twice. Maybe not even once.

And Decimal, your insults/criticism are noted. As for your assertion that I'm the "...most unpopular guy in the hangar," you may be right. However I don't worry about that because if it is so, then I am the most unpopular CHIEF PILOT guy in the hangar. The feedback I get is generally positive, but you never know. Behind my back, people may surely consider me the biggest A-hole to ever walk the face of the earth. But you know what? I don't care. Because I've made it to a certain point in my life, in my career and in this industry. And I've seen more than one compatriot (or copardray as Bravo 99 would call it) die along the way. It's never easy to take. Never. So you guys can just kiss my rosy red arse.

Any of you nitwits who think 350-hour Robbie pilots are ready for prime time are just nuts. Put down the crackpipe and step away from the drugs! Don't come knocking on my door until you know how to fly, are able to prove it and have the quals to back it up. I'll send you to Eacott. Maybe he'll put you in one of his BK's as a PIC.
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Old 13th Feb 2004, 13:41
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PP#1
So as a newie / wannabe in helicopters, I or any other students are not allowed to read / post opioins on a professionals forum such as this - so again limiting our available material to gain knowledge of the industry - cheers

With due respect, I don't think insurance will cover you, or employer may not consider due to hours and/or experience / Get serious.
These are two very different ways of giving an opinion to a genuine question, please do not tell me you are involved in PR for the company you work for.

So as I qualify with a CPL, you believe that I cannot operate a B206 as PIC? - I already know a guy who does.

Personally (don't know if anyone agrees), you sound arrogant, and suffer from quite an ego, even with your number of hours, I don't think I would want to fly with you.

I know th majority of incidents involve pilot error - and accidents happen to people from 10 hours to 10 000hours
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Old 13th Feb 2004, 14:05
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PP#1,

I guess it does not count that I got my first commercial job AS PIC in a TURBINE with 160 hrs.

Mate, if you keep on digging the hole only gets deeper

Oh, and John-you still have my respect
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