Low-timers and (un)employability
In the middle european countrys like germany, austria, switzerland, france, netherlands, italy... it's nearly impossible to get a professional helicopterpilot job (PF1 ist right: "If you get paid to do it, then you're a pro") under 800-1000h. That's the reason why we have precious little helo pilots coming the civ way. I think below 10%.
The small number of newbies (the civil way) from this countrys coming in any case from the US flightschools, because to be a commercial inland is awfully expensive (>100.000 €) on the lowest level (R-22). May be they meet the JAA requirements to get their CPL, but no one meet the company requirements. Companies in Europe are extremely specialised. Nearly all of them are in the EMS or any kind of Airwork business, we have no tour operators, no mustering,... and they competing very very hard to get their money with rescue missions and any kind of sling load, agriculture, construction and logging. And most companies are small, employing only 3-12 pilots. It's hard to find uncle franks toys in the commercial business except flightschools and some pipeline controllers. More than 90% of the helos are turbine. The airspace restrictions, the receivables from authorities and insurance are hard to be safe and the environment and weather are complex and difficult. It's important, especially to survive the compete, for a company to be able to fly all kinds of cumstomer wishes immediately on the shortest way and in good quality. May be you have on the forenoon a sightseeing trip and afternoon a sling load construction work. If the sun goes down you get a alert call to shorthaul a climber. All in a AS 350 or 407 may be. How it could be diveded between the pilots? No, you need pilots ready to go into any possible action. The EMS guys have the JAA problem, no EMS PIC under 500 EMS hours or 1000h CoPilot. How could a civ get EMS hours? How could a civ get night hours? commercial night flights with single engines are JAA prohibited!How could a civ get hoisting or short haul hours?
Look at the "Code of practice" JAR-OPS 4! Then you will get a feeling for the next decades. Most ops will be limited by pilot flight hours. Shorthaul (now HELICOPTER HUMAN EXTERNAL CARGO HHEC), as example, will be probably limited to 300h sling load and 1000-1500(mountain) PIC hours. And so on... Same to agriculture, mountain, hoisting...
May be the only chance is to get a job as an aerial fotographer or on a pipeline.
Unfortunately!!!
@whirlybird
That's the first mistake of a newbie! No one of us knows enough !!! You can talk about your limitations after you have mastered (or Lady Luck was with you) a critical situation on your absolut limits, while you as a nonsmoker trying to light a cigarette with shuddering hands.
That's the reason why the most accidents happens with pilots between 200-800 hours. They know enough!
Don't worry!
The small number of newbies (the civil way) from this countrys coming in any case from the US flightschools, because to be a commercial inland is awfully expensive (>100.000 €) on the lowest level (R-22). May be they meet the JAA requirements to get their CPL, but no one meet the company requirements. Companies in Europe are extremely specialised. Nearly all of them are in the EMS or any kind of Airwork business, we have no tour operators, no mustering,... and they competing very very hard to get their money with rescue missions and any kind of sling load, agriculture, construction and logging. And most companies are small, employing only 3-12 pilots. It's hard to find uncle franks toys in the commercial business except flightschools and some pipeline controllers. More than 90% of the helos are turbine. The airspace restrictions, the receivables from authorities and insurance are hard to be safe and the environment and weather are complex and difficult. It's important, especially to survive the compete, for a company to be able to fly all kinds of cumstomer wishes immediately on the shortest way and in good quality. May be you have on the forenoon a sightseeing trip and afternoon a sling load construction work. If the sun goes down you get a alert call to shorthaul a climber. All in a AS 350 or 407 may be. How it could be diveded between the pilots? No, you need pilots ready to go into any possible action. The EMS guys have the JAA problem, no EMS PIC under 500 EMS hours or 1000h CoPilot. How could a civ get EMS hours? How could a civ get night hours? commercial night flights with single engines are JAA prohibited!How could a civ get hoisting or short haul hours?
Look at the "Code of practice" JAR-OPS 4! Then you will get a feeling for the next decades. Most ops will be limited by pilot flight hours. Shorthaul (now HELICOPTER HUMAN EXTERNAL CARGO HHEC), as example, will be probably limited to 300h sling load and 1000-1500(mountain) PIC hours. And so on... Same to agriculture, mountain, hoisting...
May be the only chance is to get a job as an aerial fotographer or on a pipeline.
Unfortunately!!!
@whirlybird
but I honestly think it's more that I know just enough now to know my own limitations
That's the reason why the most accidents happens with pilots between 200-800 hours. They know enough!
Don't worry!
Last edited by tecpilot; 15th Feb 2004 at 18:12.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why is it that every puts this big issue on the difference between turbine and piston?
Turbines are a piece of cake compared to the load of c*ap that is fitted in Robbies etc. Yes of course you can over temp on on start, but certainly in the U.K you would have to try pretty hard. (Hot and High is different obviously.)
The old maxim that the bigger the heli, the easier it is to fly has always been true in my case. When I first moved from a R22 to a Jet Ranger, I couldn't believe the difference, I had so much more capacity straight away.
Turbines are a piece of cake compared to the load of c*ap that is fitted in Robbies etc. Yes of course you can over temp on on start, but certainly in the U.K you would have to try pretty hard. (Hot and High is different obviously.)
The old maxim that the bigger the heli, the easier it is to fly has always been true in my case. When I first moved from a R22 to a Jet Ranger, I couldn't believe the difference, I had so much more capacity straight away.
@Say again s l o w l y
It's not a question piston-turbine, it's a question of the missions to fly. How many younger guys (the older pilot generation, with experience on bigger pistons are nearly gone) have operated a piston (what's still in the business: Robinsons, H300 and the last 47ers) with max sling load in critical environment? I don't talk about the truck tire used on flightschools with robbos and H 300 to train sling loads. What kind of missions will be flown in the actual piston scene? And what kind of missions we have on 350, 407, ... ? What's the reason why we don't see many ultra light turbines like 330 or 480 in the business? They are not fullfilling the requirements of the market. No man will buy a turbine if a piston could also take the job.
That's the (mostly brain) capacity you need to fullfill the mission and to keep your eyes on mission specialities.
It's not a question piston-turbine, it's a question of the missions to fly. How many younger guys (the older pilot generation, with experience on bigger pistons are nearly gone) have operated a piston (what's still in the business: Robinsons, H300 and the last 47ers) with max sling load in critical environment? I don't talk about the truck tire used on flightschools with robbos and H 300 to train sling loads. What kind of missions will be flown in the actual piston scene? And what kind of missions we have on 350, 407, ... ? What's the reason why we don't see many ultra light turbines like 330 or 480 in the business? They are not fullfilling the requirements of the market. No man will buy a turbine if a piston could also take the job.
I couldn't believe the difference, I had so much more capacity straight away.
Last edited by tecpilot; 15th Feb 2004 at 19:01.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
AJB,
We have met and I'm sure we will again soon, so I won't say anything here, but thanks for the slagging off anyway!
However, you replied earlier by using B99 s computer while yours was down.
Just a thought, but if you and B99 are not the same person, then why, when you used his computer, did you not use B99 s computer and log in with your own user name and password?
(I will not accept the answer that you have forgotten your details)
Good luck, and my advice;
Instead of slagging everyone off, perhaps make friends with them. Come and visit us all and see what it's all about. With your contacts now, that shouldn't be a problem.
SS
Further to my last,
B99, How come after going back a bit I find;
posted 13th February 2004 18:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE from B99
"I answer only one quistion that is no we are not one in the same and yes my log book goes into 4500 hours."
UNQUOTE.
Looking at the profile on B99;
Licence Type (eg CPL. Pilots only) CPL/IR
Current a/c Type (eg B737. Pilots only) AS355 B206 R22
Biography 23 years fire service looking to work hems
Location Shropshire UK (I think)
Interests car rallies girls my kids Helicopter etc
Occupation Pilot
Then later on B99s post from AJB;
Bravo 99 has asked me to say something and as my pc is down I am using his
to correct the record I asked B99 to put the item on the forum regarding the 413 he did advise me you would be laughed at but I said nothing lost nothing gained.
so I am the guy that you should be taking th mike out of
and my quilifications and back round as follows.
23 years fire service
OIC of station
OIC brigade colour party
Queens Fire service Medal
206 30 hours
355 60 hours
22 249 hours
FNPT 1 30 hours
MD 902 30 mins
A109 3 hours
89 hour instrument
6 hours night
Multi engine IR
Flight instructor restricted
CRM
First aid BTLFQ
Now then I am no Columbo, but even I can smell a big one here.
I find this quite offensive that you have come here asking for advice, lying to us in the first place, don't like what you heard here and then start to slag US all off.
I believe that you have lost all creditability and respect for what you have worked so hard for, in the way you have treated this community.
Good luck, you'll now need it,
SS
We have met and I'm sure we will again soon, so I won't say anything here, but thanks for the slagging off anyway!
However, you replied earlier by using B99 s computer while yours was down.
Just a thought, but if you and B99 are not the same person, then why, when you used his computer, did you not use B99 s computer and log in with your own user name and password?
(I will not accept the answer that you have forgotten your details)
Good luck, and my advice;
Instead of slagging everyone off, perhaps make friends with them. Come and visit us all and see what it's all about. With your contacts now, that shouldn't be a problem.
SS
Further to my last,
B99, How come after going back a bit I find;
posted 13th February 2004 18:19
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE from B99
"I answer only one quistion that is no we are not one in the same and yes my log book goes into 4500 hours."
UNQUOTE.
Looking at the profile on B99;
Licence Type (eg CPL. Pilots only) CPL/IR
Current a/c Type (eg B737. Pilots only) AS355 B206 R22
Biography 23 years fire service looking to work hems
Location Shropshire UK (I think)
Interests car rallies girls my kids Helicopter etc
Occupation Pilot
Then later on B99s post from AJB;
Bravo 99 has asked me to say something and as my pc is down I am using his
to correct the record I asked B99 to put the item on the forum regarding the 413 he did advise me you would be laughed at but I said nothing lost nothing gained.
so I am the guy that you should be taking th mike out of
and my quilifications and back round as follows.
23 years fire service
OIC of station
OIC brigade colour party
Queens Fire service Medal
206 30 hours
355 60 hours
22 249 hours
FNPT 1 30 hours
MD 902 30 mins
A109 3 hours
89 hour instrument
6 hours night
Multi engine IR
Flight instructor restricted
CRM
First aid BTLFQ
Now then I am no Columbo, but even I can smell a big one here.
I find this quite offensive that you have come here asking for advice, lying to us in the first place, don't like what you heard here and then start to slag US all off.
I believe that you have lost all creditability and respect for what you have worked so hard for, in the way you have treated this community.
Good luck, you'll now need it,
SS
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Age: 71
Posts: 1,364
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In the UK, the CAA normally insist that an operator puts a minimum level of PIC flying experience into the AOM requirements for command. I don't have the paperwork to hand at the minute. It varies, depending upon whether your AOC is pre JAR-OPS or not: my recollection is 500/700 hrs PIC.
Whirlybird's summary seems about right to me. I "bridged the gap" through instruction. (At the stage I did it, PPLs could instruct). In retrospect, it seems a bit doubtful that I taught others how to fly with so little experience, but:
so far none of my students have killed themselves;
they usually knew about my background and normally kept coming back for more;
I was exceptionally well-guided by a good mentor.
I was as keen as mustard and my enthusiasm seemed to rub-off
[As a freelancer you are likely to earn much more money as an instructor than as a S/E VFR charter pilot too]
Some AOC holders quietly seem to ignore any limits, or perhaps they have special deals with the CAA. The closely supervised route seems the obvious way to start - the situation is probably different in the UK from the US (for example) but it is possible to put together sightseeing trips over well know ground for newbees. In a similar way, pilots flying on pleasure flying 5 minute trips can also be effectively supervised.
However, the problem still exists at this stage and at others in the progression through helicopter flying. It is a function partly of the essence of the business and the nature of the work. Lots of helicopter flying is simply commercially marginal.
In my view it is seriously made worse by the appallingly structured regulations which are unrealistic. In the UK the CAA has no goal to encourage aviation (unlike the FAA in the US) AND IT SHOWS. In the UK we regulate our industries to the point of strangulation. We take a lot of fun out of what we do as a result of course. At the same time, our accident rates are no better than other countries. However, as previous comments have made clear, the problem of how to get the low hours is present in all countries; it is perhaps just a bit worse here.
What usually makes the difference is the determination of the individual. Whether or not this is the best selection criteria is another matter - but it seems to be the one that works.
Whirlybird's summary seems about right to me. I "bridged the gap" through instruction. (At the stage I did it, PPLs could instruct). In retrospect, it seems a bit doubtful that I taught others how to fly with so little experience, but:
so far none of my students have killed themselves;
they usually knew about my background and normally kept coming back for more;
I was exceptionally well-guided by a good mentor.
I was as keen as mustard and my enthusiasm seemed to rub-off
[As a freelancer you are likely to earn much more money as an instructor than as a S/E VFR charter pilot too]
Some AOC holders quietly seem to ignore any limits, or perhaps they have special deals with the CAA. The closely supervised route seems the obvious way to start - the situation is probably different in the UK from the US (for example) but it is possible to put together sightseeing trips over well know ground for newbees. In a similar way, pilots flying on pleasure flying 5 minute trips can also be effectively supervised.
However, the problem still exists at this stage and at others in the progression through helicopter flying. It is a function partly of the essence of the business and the nature of the work. Lots of helicopter flying is simply commercially marginal.
In my view it is seriously made worse by the appallingly structured regulations which are unrealistic. In the UK the CAA has no goal to encourage aviation (unlike the FAA in the US) AND IT SHOWS. In the UK we regulate our industries to the point of strangulation. We take a lot of fun out of what we do as a result of course. At the same time, our accident rates are no better than other countries. However, as previous comments have made clear, the problem of how to get the low hours is present in all countries; it is perhaps just a bit worse here.
What usually makes the difference is the determination of the individual. Whether or not this is the best selection criteria is another matter - but it seems to be the one that works.
Last edited by Helinut; 15th Feb 2004 at 20:23.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: floating around
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ha ha ha. oh my sides, spot on SilsoeSid, after sitting down all morning reading through this thread I am amazed.
I don't know if it is just me but it seems like PPF1 is constantly spot on!
If you don't like his attitude tuff crap, the vast majority of Chief pilots think like that, unfortunately for us low timers!
I have always believed that most newbie's and low timers in the Heli industry are the kings of wishful thinking, always firmly beleiving that the big break is just around the corner, however, with 300 hours an I/R and a fair bit of turbine time under my belt I still stand in line in the dole cue!
I love flying, but I will admit I do regret going the commercial route, all I have to show is an empty wallet and a silly little useless book issued by the CAA that will continue to drain money out of me just to keep current, living in hope that I will one day get a semi decent paid job.
Until I get that job. I won't bother listening to Student pilots or those in a similar situation to me, like broken records, with there firm beleifs of employment straight out of flight school! (Would Ironic be the right word? )
I don't know if it is just me but it seems like PPF1 is constantly spot on!
If you don't like his attitude tuff crap, the vast majority of Chief pilots think like that, unfortunately for us low timers!
I have always believed that most newbie's and low timers in the Heli industry are the kings of wishful thinking, always firmly beleiving that the big break is just around the corner, however, with 300 hours an I/R and a fair bit of turbine time under my belt I still stand in line in the dole cue!
I love flying, but I will admit I do regret going the commercial route, all I have to show is an empty wallet and a silly little useless book issued by the CAA that will continue to drain money out of me just to keep current, living in hope that I will one day get a semi decent paid job.
Until I get that job. I won't bother listening to Student pilots or those in a similar situation to me, like broken records, with there firm beleifs of employment straight out of flight school! (Would Ironic be the right word?
)
Last edited by Watchoutbelow; 15th Feb 2004 at 20:50.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is a form of insecurity when you have to resort to insults to get your point across and does nothing for your professional reputation.
Spot on, Whirlygig.
But since you're thinking of going commercial, I should point out to you that PF1's attitude is common in the industry, at least among instructors - the only bit of it I know well. I was licking my wounds a couple of days ago, having been bawled out by my supervising QHI...for no other reason that that he was feeling bad because we have few students over winter, he's not earning enough, and is jealous of me because I have another way of earning money. Oh, and I asked politely for more work. And took a few minutes longer than he would over a briefing with a keen trial lesson student. I think those were the sum of my crimes. The words "taking the bread out of his mouth" were mentioned somewhere in the tirade"...can't remember the details; it was a case of taking it out on me because I was the nearest person and he figured I wouldn't retaliate. And I didn't. Not worth it. I need him, and I have enough self control to ignore it all rather than add fuel to a raging fire.
But afterwards I phoned a friend - a f/w instructor with over 20 years experience. And she told me the flying world is full of people like that, people who know how to fly, but not to deal with people, because they've never had to learn. People who don't control their tempers, and don't see why they should. They're accepted because all they have to actually do to keep their jobs is fly well, and that they can do. It's all they've ever done, and they think it makes them important. But they wouldn't last 5 minutes in most industries or jobs.
I love to fly helicopters, but I've already decided - I hate so much about this industry!!!! I have to crawl and smile and accept insults and sexism, and drag myself up by my bootstraps...and for what? To be paid a pittance to allow people who can't fly to have the chance to try and kill me! Because I won't be one of those instructors who never lets the student really have control. And be resented for the fact that I can get on with people, and that I had the foresight and the brains to make sure I always had another way to earn a living in a precarious industry.
They're not all like that. I've met some fantastic people, both on and off PPRuNe. I've been given a huge amount of help, and made a lot of friends. But there are enough clones of PF1 (even if he thinks I'm a pro and gives me "permission" to post ) and that QHI to make me seriously doubt my sanity in carrying on.
So, Whirlygig, and other wannabes, are you really really sure you want to do this?
Cheers,
Whirly (who can put up with any number of insults on PPRuNe, but not face to face for no reason, and is still fuming about it, and hence maybe not being as objective as usual
)
Spot on, Whirlygig.
But since you're thinking of going commercial, I should point out to you that PF1's attitude is common in the industry, at least among instructors - the only bit of it I know well. I was licking my wounds a couple of days ago, having been bawled out by my supervising QHI...for no other reason that that he was feeling bad because we have few students over winter, he's not earning enough, and is jealous of me because I have another way of earning money. Oh, and I asked politely for more work. And took a few minutes longer than he would over a briefing with a keen trial lesson student. I think those were the sum of my crimes. The words "taking the bread out of his mouth" were mentioned somewhere in the tirade"...can't remember the details; it was a case of taking it out on me because I was the nearest person and he figured I wouldn't retaliate. And I didn't. Not worth it. I need him, and I have enough self control to ignore it all rather than add fuel to a raging fire.
But afterwards I phoned a friend - a f/w instructor with over 20 years experience. And she told me the flying world is full of people like that, people who know how to fly, but not to deal with people, because they've never had to learn. People who don't control their tempers, and don't see why they should. They're accepted because all they have to actually do to keep their jobs is fly well, and that they can do. It's all they've ever done, and they think it makes them important. But they wouldn't last 5 minutes in most industries or jobs.
I love to fly helicopters, but I've already decided - I hate so much about this industry!!!! I have to crawl and smile and accept insults and sexism, and drag myself up by my bootstraps...and for what? To be paid a pittance to allow people who can't fly to have the chance to try and kill me! Because I won't be one of those instructors who never lets the student really have control. And be resented for the fact that I can get on with people, and that I had the foresight and the brains to make sure I always had another way to earn a living in a precarious industry.
They're not all like that. I've met some fantastic people, both on and off PPRuNe. I've been given a huge amount of help, and made a lot of friends. But there are enough clones of PF1 (even if he thinks I'm a pro and gives me "permission" to post
) and that QHI to make me seriously doubt my sanity in carrying on.So, Whirlygig, and other wannabes, are you really really sure you want to do this?
Cheers,
Whirly (who can put up with any number of insults on PPRuNe, but not face to face for no reason, and is still fuming about it, and hence maybe not being as objective as usual
)
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It may well be that PPRUNE FAN#1 doesn't have the necessary skills (or slightest inclination) to join the Diplomatic Corps when he retires from flying - instructing at the 'John MacEnroe Charm School' seems a more likely option - but let's not lose track of what's happened here.
Bravo 99 suggested his 'friend' might apply for a job which seemed like a position for an experienced professional. Nothing ventured, nothing gained etc but, to me as a mere PPL, it seemed an unrealistic idea given the number of experienced and type-rated pilots looking for jobs.
All PF#1 said in his initial response was:
Blunt certainly, but it hardly justified:
’take the piss all you like but do it on the planks page and leave proper pilots to try to help others.
‘By the way i notice that you are from the US (speaks for its self I think)
‘Professional Prick Fan #1
‘I cannot believe you have a commercial job with you`re attitude.
‘twats like you.
‘you`re full of SH1TE!!
‘YOU DO NOT BELONG IN THIS INDUSTRY!
‘I have not seen anyone in favour of your opinions or statements on this forum - I suggest you go to the model helicopter worlds forum. (Not true – PF#1’s views often have support, even if his style is irritating at times.)
’You are the reason people on this forum have a disjointed view of US pilots. (IMHO, the top contributors include several Americans.)
Then, from someone who feels able to criticise what he sees as flaws in other people’s personalities, we had a classic - in CAPITALS in case we missed this most compelling argument:
THIS GUY IS A COMPLETE **** AND WANTS DECKING. DONT COME TO THE UK AND SAY THAT TO MY 350 HOUR FRIEND HE I AM SURE WOULD DRAG YOUR HEART OUT BY HIS BARE HANDS.
I’m still trying to work out what that proves apart from the fact that, if it’s true, the friend is a violent yob who can’t control his anger. (Probably better not to mention that in his CV.)
‘this guy in the US has a gob the size of his c*ntry
‘do not intend to respond to you silly whitisizams (sic) because if you think you are funny the rest of the industry does not. (Really?)
‘so write on brother but you cred is non existent’
‘this idiot p prune fan
‘knobs like that p prune chap
‘I am begining to wonder if I want to work with such a bunch of stuck up premodona,s. (sic)
‘clearly you have your heads so far up you bum
‘the way you lot look like you treat low time pilots i wish i would have invested my funds somewhere else not try to work with a bunch of complete Assholes
’o and by the way some one said this site was for professional pilots i have seen nothing on this site so far that comes any where near looking good, never mind looking professional.’ (He might find ‘Just Helicopters’ better suited to his debating style.)
Still, it’s a good debate – provided we just smile benignly at those who are unwilling or unable to come up with good arguments to shoot down their opponents’ bad points, and are forced to resort to moronic abuse and foul language.
Bravo 99 suggested his 'friend' might apply for a job which seemed like a position for an experienced professional. Nothing ventured, nothing gained etc but, to me as a mere PPL, it seemed an unrealistic idea given the number of experienced and type-rated pilots looking for jobs.
All PF#1 said in his initial response was:
"Are you seriously suggesting that your friend, with 350 hours TT would be qualified to take a position flying a Bell 430 off a boat? Do you think that someone who is rich enough to own a boat big enough to carry a helicopter would hire a pilot with so little experience? Do you think that there is an insurance company on the planet that would cover him? I find that astounding. I mean, I understand that you must like your friend and want to find him a job, but let's get serious...
’take the piss all you like but do it on the planks page and leave proper pilots to try to help others.
‘By the way i notice that you are from the US (speaks for its self I think)
‘Professional Prick Fan #1
‘I cannot believe you have a commercial job with you`re attitude.
‘twats like you.
‘you`re full of SH1TE!!
‘YOU DO NOT BELONG IN THIS INDUSTRY!
‘I have not seen anyone in favour of your opinions or statements on this forum - I suggest you go to the model helicopter worlds forum. (Not true – PF#1’s views often have support, even if his style is irritating at times.)
’You are the reason people on this forum have a disjointed view of US pilots. (IMHO, the top contributors include several Americans.)
Then, from someone who feels able to criticise what he sees as flaws in other people’s personalities, we had a classic - in CAPITALS in case we missed this most compelling argument:
THIS GUY IS A COMPLETE **** AND WANTS DECKING. DONT COME TO THE UK AND SAY THAT TO MY 350 HOUR FRIEND HE I AM SURE WOULD DRAG YOUR HEART OUT BY HIS BARE HANDS.
I’m still trying to work out what that proves apart from the fact that, if it’s true, the friend is a violent yob who can’t control his anger. (Probably better not to mention that in his CV.)
‘this guy in the US has a gob the size of his c*ntry
‘do not intend to respond to you silly whitisizams (sic) because if you think you are funny the rest of the industry does not. (Really?)
‘so write on brother but you cred is non existent’
‘this idiot p prune fan
‘knobs like that p prune chap
‘I am begining to wonder if I want to work with such a bunch of stuck up premodona,s. (sic)
‘clearly you have your heads so far up you bum
‘the way you lot look like you treat low time pilots i wish i would have invested my funds somewhere else not try to work with a bunch of complete Assholes
’o and by the way some one said this site was for professional pilots i have seen nothing on this site so far that comes any where near looking good, never mind looking professional.’ (He might find ‘Just Helicopters’ better suited to his debating style.)
Still, it’s a good debate – provided we just smile benignly at those who are unwilling or unable to come up with good arguments to shoot down their opponents’ bad points, and are forced to resort to moronic abuse and foul language.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 16th Feb 2004 at 00:06.
...and diving into the unpopular bomb crater on the battlefield of pointless arguements comes SHMEEE.....!
I have resisted but I think this is too good a blue to miss.
FOR THIS SUBJECT ONLY: I agree with PP1....(a little)
I was a fortunate copilot on a twin once and I had a bunch of super guys showing me IFR, Boat landings, foul WX offshore analysis and just generally how to think smart in a helo.
To do this all with 350hrs of mostly training flying is really asking for a negative experience. I do not know of one new IFR pilot fresh out of school who has ever been in cloud before. I certainly hadn't. So without the two crew environment I would never have learn't to plan, operate or behave safely IFR. This is a SPIFR machine...if you are thinking you can fly this by yourself with a BS inital IFR you are kidding.
I think PP1's comments have been blown out of porportion. A 430 is not a 206 and the complexity and system knowledge is 10 times that of a single. There is the little issue of extra weight as well...
Perhaps we should just take the comments without considering his previous post history.
PP1: congrats on that freakin huge post.....
I have resisted but I think this is too good a blue to miss.
FOR THIS SUBJECT ONLY: I agree with PP1....(a little)
I was a fortunate copilot on a twin once and I had a bunch of super guys showing me IFR, Boat landings, foul WX offshore analysis and just generally how to think smart in a helo.
To do this all with 350hrs of mostly training flying is really asking for a negative experience. I do not know of one new IFR pilot fresh out of school who has ever been in cloud before. I certainly hadn't. So without the two crew environment I would never have learn't to plan, operate or behave safely IFR. This is a SPIFR machine...if you are thinking you can fly this by yourself with a BS inital IFR you are kidding.
I think PP1's comments have been blown out of porportion. A 430 is not a 206 and the complexity and system knowledge is 10 times that of a single. There is the little issue of extra weight as well...
Perhaps we should just take the comments without considering his previous post history.
PP1: congrats on that freakin huge post.....
@ whirlygig
"1. How you got from 150 to 1,000 hours
2. How you envisage young pilots will replace the older pilots (and I imagine you are of the older generation) who have to retire. The military does not have the throughput of pilots these days - so how do you expect the helicopter industry to continue?
3. What steps are you taking to replace yourself when you have to retire."
It's a market, a market allways on the run. If the market get short on pilots, he will take the necessary action. At first more freelance from mil and police guys, followed by eastern pilots in Europe (you know EU becomes wider) and if the market than runs out of pilots he will made the job so attractive that more newbies coming out and more mil and police pilots change their employer. That's a procedure no one of us could change.
Simple! -on the market could only survive the hardest. Companies who spend a lot of money in newbies or have not the right flexible pilot staff going the tricky way. And as seen in the actual situation, we have to much pilots, more than enough unexperienced pilots looking for a job, a regression in the business and heavy heavy increasing spare parts and insurance costs. I'm sorry to tell it, but that's the situation and if your FI doesn't tell you the right words about the market, go back and take his neck! I would like to give all newbies their chances, but we couldn't change the situation. It takes a lot to guide a newbie in a company, to build up experience in the described way in the last posts, it's hard and expensive and after 1000h he will change to an other company, which is today so bad in his eyes - bad for non hiring newbies.
"1. How you got from 150 to 1,000 hours
2. How you envisage young pilots will replace the older pilots (and I imagine you are of the older generation) who have to retire. The military does not have the throughput of pilots these days - so how do you expect the helicopter industry to continue?
3. What steps are you taking to replace yourself when you have to retire."
It's a market, a market allways on the run. If the market get short on pilots, he will take the necessary action. At first more freelance from mil and police guys, followed by eastern pilots in Europe (you know EU becomes wider) and if the market than runs out of pilots he will made the job so attractive that more newbies coming out and more mil and police pilots change their employer. That's a procedure no one of us could change.
Simple! -on the market could only survive the hardest. Companies who spend a lot of money in newbies or have not the right flexible pilot staff going the tricky way. And as seen in the actual situation, we have to much pilots, more than enough unexperienced pilots looking for a job, a regression in the business and heavy heavy increasing spare parts and insurance costs. I'm sorry to tell it, but that's the situation and if your FI doesn't tell you the right words about the market, go back and take his neck! I would like to give all newbies their chances, but we couldn't change the situation. It takes a lot to guide a newbie in a company, to build up experience in the described way in the last posts, it's hard and expensive and after 1000h he will change to an other company, which is today so bad in his eyes - bad for non hiring newbies.
Lots of good replies here, and I am quite enjoying this thread- as abusive (to me, what a surprise) as it sometimes is.
Okay, okay...it's Sunday morning, I'm feeling good and I'm about to go out for a lovely brunch. I'll admit that my cheap shot at Whirlybird was gratuitous. Although I have to say that I did not "give her permission" to post; she certainly has earned that on her own. But she's always so...so...humble! Ooooh, it's grating. She even admits to getting a right good scathing by her instructor and she took it! Me, I would have responded...let's just say "differently" but I'm sure you all would assume that. And so should she have, whether she "needs" him or not. So anyway, I apologize to the gracious Whirlybird, who took my "joke" in stride.
There's this dichotomy in our business. Helicopter pilots have to be aggressive- but not too aggressive. You cannot be a wishy-washy helicopter pilot. There will be times when a firm, decisive hand on the controls is what's needed.
For example, I once had a "relatively" inexperienced young friend. He was a very "conservative" pilot. His bank angles in turns was barely perceptible. We never saw him drop the nose aggressively on takeoff, and his approaches to our shore base were so slow that aircraft behind him on finals could pass him, land, cooldown and have their blades tied-down before this chap finally made it to the pad. Everyone who viewed his flying would describe him as "a good pilot." Conversely, people who view my flying would probably call me a hotdog. I am a dinosaur. Old school. I justify the way I fly by saying, "Hey, it's worked for me so far." And I'll be right...right up until the day I'm wrong.
One hot, windless summer day in the GOM, my friend eased off an oil platform in a 206B loaded to max gross and maybe just a smidgen beyond depending on how badly the guys lied about the weight of their toolboxes. Hey, that's just how it is. As he left the safety and comfort of his ground effect behind, he ventured out into OGE-land. But the aircraft did not have OGE capability (it barely had "hover IGE" capability). Now, at this point the pilot must do one of two things: either he must get through ETL and fly away, or he must enter autorotation and land. There is no choice.
My friend did neither. He sat there tentatively as the ship wobbled and settled. He pulled in the last bit of remaining power (there wasn't much more to pull), and it just settled faster. The poor JetRanger was now descending vertically at a high rate of speed. At the very last second, he popped the floats and smashed into the water so hard that it spread the skids, wrinkled the whole fuselage, broke the bubbles and greenhouses (from the fuselage wrenching). Then it lifted off the water, because he still had the pitch up under his arm. He put it back down and got fired.
Why? Because the Chief Pilot asked him to explain what he did wrong and how he would prevent it from happening again? My friend could not. He didn't think he did anything wrong.
Let's back up. When you come off an elevated helideck and you do not have the capability to hover, you're in a very precarious position. Unless you want to crash, you must get through ETL and fly away. OR, you must go down to the surface and land. For us, landing on the Gulf of Mexico is not an option unless it's an emergency. So the only real choice my friend had was to force (coax, convince, coerce...whatever) the ship to fly- pitch the nose down and get through ETL! If it meant using up some of that 100' of altitude, so be it. (We prefer not to do that, but hey- sometimes you have to.)
I say my friend was "relatively" inexperienced because although he had well over 1000 hours, it was all twin-engine (SH-3), multi-crew military time; he had no civilian time at all, and virtually no experience operating overloaded 206's from tiny oil platforms. I felt badly for him. My "conservative" friend didn't like to do things aggressively. And it bit him. And it cost him his job. Lucky it didn't kill him (and his pax).
Is there a point to all of this? Beats me. I use that story to illustrate just how wacky and complicated and confusing helicopter flying is. We teach newbies to be "conservative," and that's generally good because we equate "conservative" with "good." But in helicopters there's a time for conservative, and a time for aggressiveness. That is what takes time and seasoning and experience to learn. It does not come overnight. It does not come at the 160-hour level.
Finally, a word about my own career. I was lucky. I managed to get a non-flying job as a dispatcher/lineboy with a helicopter operator. In my spare time, I flew as P2 on charters where the copilot seat was empty. At the same time, I paid out of my own pocket for my ratings. It took seven years before I finally had enough time to earn an SIC slot in a two-pilot, multi-engine ship the company had. It was two more years until I made 206 PIC. From there, it lead to bigger and better things (insert big eyeroll here).
For you civilian low-timers, there is no easy path. There is no clearly-defined path. There is not even a repeatable path that worked for someone else. I have no solutions or even suggestions other than "if you want it badly enough, you'll find a way" (like Whirlybird, who I truly believe will never give up and unlike AJB, who I feel will). Do not hold that against me. (Kill the messenger?) And for those who indignantly feel that I have some heavy moral responsibility to ensure that my replacements are in the pipeline, well...direct your anger somewhere else, bucko. Nobody ever said that this was a good career. In fact, it is not.
Okay, okay...it's Sunday morning, I'm feeling good and I'm about to go out for a lovely brunch. I'll admit that my cheap shot at Whirlybird was gratuitous. Although I have to say that I did not "give her permission" to post; she certainly has earned that on her own. But she's always so...so...humble! Ooooh, it's grating. She even admits to getting a right good scathing by her instructor and she took it! Me, I would have responded...let's just say "differently" but I'm sure you all would assume that. And so should she have, whether she "needs" him or not. So anyway, I apologize to the gracious Whirlybird, who took my "joke" in stride.
There's this dichotomy in our business. Helicopter pilots have to be aggressive- but not too aggressive. You cannot be a wishy-washy helicopter pilot. There will be times when a firm, decisive hand on the controls is what's needed.
For example, I once had a "relatively" inexperienced young friend. He was a very "conservative" pilot. His bank angles in turns was barely perceptible. We never saw him drop the nose aggressively on takeoff, and his approaches to our shore base were so slow that aircraft behind him on finals could pass him, land, cooldown and have their blades tied-down before this chap finally made it to the pad. Everyone who viewed his flying would describe him as "a good pilot." Conversely, people who view my flying would probably call me a hotdog. I am a dinosaur. Old school. I justify the way I fly by saying, "Hey, it's worked for me so far." And I'll be right...right up until the day I'm wrong.
One hot, windless summer day in the GOM, my friend eased off an oil platform in a 206B loaded to max gross and maybe just a smidgen beyond depending on how badly the guys lied about the weight of their toolboxes. Hey, that's just how it is. As he left the safety and comfort of his ground effect behind, he ventured out into OGE-land. But the aircraft did not have OGE capability (it barely had "hover IGE" capability). Now, at this point the pilot must do one of two things: either he must get through ETL and fly away, or he must enter autorotation and land. There is no choice.
My friend did neither. He sat there tentatively as the ship wobbled and settled. He pulled in the last bit of remaining power (there wasn't much more to pull), and it just settled faster. The poor JetRanger was now descending vertically at a high rate of speed. At the very last second, he popped the floats and smashed into the water so hard that it spread the skids, wrinkled the whole fuselage, broke the bubbles and greenhouses (from the fuselage wrenching). Then it lifted off the water, because he still had the pitch up under his arm. He put it back down and got fired.
Why? Because the Chief Pilot asked him to explain what he did wrong and how he would prevent it from happening again? My friend could not. He didn't think he did anything wrong.
Let's back up. When you come off an elevated helideck and you do not have the capability to hover, you're in a very precarious position. Unless you want to crash, you must get through ETL and fly away. OR, you must go down to the surface and land. For us, landing on the Gulf of Mexico is not an option unless it's an emergency. So the only real choice my friend had was to force (coax, convince, coerce...whatever) the ship to fly- pitch the nose down and get through ETL! If it meant using up some of that 100' of altitude, so be it. (We prefer not to do that, but hey- sometimes you have to.)
I say my friend was "relatively" inexperienced because although he had well over 1000 hours, it was all twin-engine (SH-3), multi-crew military time; he had no civilian time at all, and virtually no experience operating overloaded 206's from tiny oil platforms. I felt badly for him. My "conservative" friend didn't like to do things aggressively. And it bit him. And it cost him his job. Lucky it didn't kill him (and his pax).
Is there a point to all of this? Beats me. I use that story to illustrate just how wacky and complicated and confusing helicopter flying is. We teach newbies to be "conservative," and that's generally good because we equate "conservative" with "good." But in helicopters there's a time for conservative, and a time for aggressiveness. That is what takes time and seasoning and experience to learn. It does not come overnight. It does not come at the 160-hour level.
Finally, a word about my own career. I was lucky. I managed to get a non-flying job as a dispatcher/lineboy with a helicopter operator. In my spare time, I flew as P2 on charters where the copilot seat was empty. At the same time, I paid out of my own pocket for my ratings. It took seven years before I finally had enough time to earn an SIC slot in a two-pilot, multi-engine ship the company had. It was two more years until I made 206 PIC. From there, it lead to bigger and better things (insert big eyeroll here).
For you civilian low-timers, there is no easy path. There is no clearly-defined path. There is not even a repeatable path that worked for someone else. I have no solutions or even suggestions other than "if you want it badly enough, you'll find a way" (like Whirlybird, who I truly believe will never give up and unlike AJB, who I feel will). Do not hold that against me. (Kill the messenger?) And for those who indignantly feel that I have some heavy moral responsibility to ensure that my replacements are in the pipeline, well...direct your anger somewhere else, bucko. Nobody ever said that this was a good career. In fact, it is not.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Canada/around
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PPF#1
Good on ya. I had decided to give up on the discussion until this post. I feel I should apologize to you for when I lapsed into personal comments aimed at you. Got emotional when I shouldn't have.
I still disagree with the assertion that a newly licenced pilot is unemployable. I think I've explained that enough above. Attitude, experience on the ground and with people, and realistic expectations are what's needed to operate safely.
Whirly.
I certainly did not state that someone should 'not' apply for a position that they are not qualified for, I said they should be careful. It has been my experience that too many very inexperienced pilots apply for these jobs, which is fine, but then follow it up with pressure tactics on the CP to explain their not getting hired. All this winds up doing, for the most part, is demonstrate a lack of maturity.
I too have applied for jobs without the advertised experience, but I also sent a cover letter with the resume to acknowledge this and explain why I was still applying, and what I was looking for and could provide to them as an employee.
tecpilot.
While agree that there is a glut of inexperienced pilots on the market, I haven't seen the glut of experience. I have contacts in several military organizations, law enforcement, and civil operations VFR and IFR on a couple continents. I am no expert in the field but the concensus I have been receiving is that applicants who meet regulatory and customer demands are getting hard to find. I experienced the same back when I was weeding through resumes and doing interview flights.
Anyone who's future livelihood depends on getting helicopters in the air to make money needs to decide now how they are going to provide not only qualified pilots, but also engineers (AME's). When the problem becomes acute, it will be too late. We also, as those pilots and engineers, need to start giving a little more loyalty to the operators who do give the newby's a break. They are sacrificing a lot of time for the entire industry's benefit.
Steve76.
I agree with your experience, but another pitfall to be aware of is the 'copilot syndrome'. I have seen enough copilots who become all too comfortable with having someone else making the final decisions and have a lot of difficulty transitioning to the PIC role. I'm not talking PIC with another fully qualified guy(gal) in the other seat. I'm talking about noone, or worse, someone unqualified. Selfstarters won't have the problem, but some people do and I've even spent some time helping a friend of mine overcome it.
Part of what PPF#1 has been saying is that our job as a commercial pilot is more 'operations management' than 'helicopter flying'. All the people skills, leadership, resource utilization, networking, and other management skills are part of the mandatory skillset to be good at our jobs. These things are assuredly NOT taught in the flight school.
I am happy to hear any criticism as well, I have a thick skin, and I've my own mistakes along the way.
Good on ya. I had decided to give up on the discussion until this post. I feel I should apologize to you for when I lapsed into personal comments aimed at you. Got emotional when I shouldn't have.
I still disagree with the assertion that a newly licenced pilot is unemployable. I think I've explained that enough above. Attitude, experience on the ground and with people, and realistic expectations are what's needed to operate safely.
Whirly.
I certainly did not state that someone should 'not' apply for a position that they are not qualified for, I said they should be careful. It has been my experience that too many very inexperienced pilots apply for these jobs, which is fine, but then follow it up with pressure tactics on the CP to explain their not getting hired. All this winds up doing, for the most part, is demonstrate a lack of maturity.
I too have applied for jobs without the advertised experience, but I also sent a cover letter with the resume to acknowledge this and explain why I was still applying, and what I was looking for and could provide to them as an employee.
tecpilot.
While agree that there is a glut of inexperienced pilots on the market, I haven't seen the glut of experience. I have contacts in several military organizations, law enforcement, and civil operations VFR and IFR on a couple continents. I am no expert in the field but the concensus I have been receiving is that applicants who meet regulatory and customer demands are getting hard to find. I experienced the same back when I was weeding through resumes and doing interview flights.
Anyone who's future livelihood depends on getting helicopters in the air to make money needs to decide now how they are going to provide not only qualified pilots, but also engineers (AME's). When the problem becomes acute, it will be too late. We also, as those pilots and engineers, need to start giving a little more loyalty to the operators who do give the newby's a break. They are sacrificing a lot of time for the entire industry's benefit.
Steve76.
I agree with your experience, but another pitfall to be aware of is the 'copilot syndrome'. I have seen enough copilots who become all too comfortable with having someone else making the final decisions and have a lot of difficulty transitioning to the PIC role. I'm not talking PIC with another fully qualified guy(gal) in the other seat. I'm talking about noone, or worse, someone unqualified. Selfstarters won't have the problem, but some people do and I've even spent some time helping a friend of mine overcome it.
Part of what PPF#1 has been saying is that our job as a commercial pilot is more 'operations management' than 'helicopter flying'. All the people skills, leadership, resource utilization, networking, and other management skills are part of the mandatory skillset to be good at our jobs. These things are assuredly NOT taught in the flight school.
I am happy to hear any criticism as well, I have a thick skin, and I've my own mistakes along the way.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,156
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
And why not 200-hour pilots on the oil patch? The only reason it would not be a good idea right now is because of the standard of customer, or at least the expectations they have been given by the helicopter industry! It's our fault that they expect people to take off in thick fog, or carry people at the end of a longline or jump out of a helicopter at 20 feet because there is nowhere to land. And now we have "consultants" advising customers that pilots need 2000 hours to transport people from lease to lease? Give me a break!
phil
phil
Hello Helo Teacher,
"While agree that there is a glut of inexperienced pilots on the market, I haven't seen the glut of experience. I have contacts in several military organizations, law enforcement, and civil operations VFR and IFR on a couple continents. I am no expert in the field but the concensus I have been receiving is that applicants who meet regulatory and customer demands are getting hard to find. "
I would partly agree to you. Partly on the special tasks it's hard to find a "specialist". The reason ist that the special ops are limited and therefore is also only a limited group of pilots available, for example antartic ops, ops from cruising ships, NVG, TP's or FTE's or very long line ops on heavy twins. The personal fluctuation and the number of employees in such companies is small. Additionally needs for specialists starts also with changes in market and changes in regulations and equipment. Especially in such areas it's really expensive in time and money to train the pilots.
But on the other side we have in Europe a lot of unemployed experienced pilots coming from the "normal" airwork, experienced in agriculture, sling load, Pax, and the whole bunch. They are ready to fly, because in such fields are not so much differencies between operators. They have the needed ratings and hours on type. The "unemployment" reason is the regression in the business, the increasing numbers of bankruptcies or the sales of helicopters in the executive branch. That's also the "market"! Some times special areas like off-shore or agriculture are going well and sometimes they are turning down. At the moment agriculture or logging ops in europe are for some reasons on a very strong nose dive. In the last years they had really enough to do. Therefore we have very experienced 5000-10,000flighthours crop dusters unemployed, but they have no twins, night or IR experience at the moment required by some EMS operators. Some years ago it wasn't worth a penny if your are fluent in russian or other eastern languages. At the moment some eastern operators and their western supplier looking hardly for western twin qualified and experienced FI to train their pilots and to supervise them. Only some examples of the changing "market laws"
"While agree that there is a glut of inexperienced pilots on the market, I haven't seen the glut of experience. I have contacts in several military organizations, law enforcement, and civil operations VFR and IFR on a couple continents. I am no expert in the field but the concensus I have been receiving is that applicants who meet regulatory and customer demands are getting hard to find. "
I would partly agree to you. Partly on the special tasks it's hard to find a "specialist". The reason ist that the special ops are limited and therefore is also only a limited group of pilots available, for example antartic ops, ops from cruising ships, NVG, TP's or FTE's or very long line ops on heavy twins. The personal fluctuation and the number of employees in such companies is small. Additionally needs for specialists starts also with changes in market and changes in regulations and equipment. Especially in such areas it's really expensive in time and money to train the pilots.
But on the other side we have in Europe a lot of unemployed experienced pilots coming from the "normal" airwork, experienced in agriculture, sling load, Pax, and the whole bunch. They are ready to fly, because in such fields are not so much differencies between operators. They have the needed ratings and hours on type. The "unemployment" reason is the regression in the business, the increasing numbers of bankruptcies or the sales of helicopters in the executive branch. That's also the "market"! Some times special areas like off-shore or agriculture are going well and sometimes they are turning down. At the moment agriculture or logging ops in europe are for some reasons on a very strong nose dive. In the last years they had really enough to do. Therefore we have very experienced 5000-10,000flighthours crop dusters unemployed, but they have no twins, night or IR experience at the moment required by some EMS operators. Some years ago it wasn't worth a penny if your are fluent in russian or other eastern languages. At the moment some eastern operators and their western supplier looking hardly for western twin qualified and experienced FI to train their pilots and to supervise them. Only some examples of the changing "market laws"
Last edited by tecpilot; 16th Feb 2004 at 02:13.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: near where aanok and aaly live.
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In responce to silsoesid only
all other stuff further down this page I am not interested in. you have said your bit I have said mine you are just blowing used air.
Right as it cards on deck
I AJB
23 years fires service
all details as past post
with additional as follows also owned construction company employing 23 staff untill divorse (see further down)
injured on duty 1999 by my driver rolling our appliance on route to a shout broke my back and spent a long time sorting this out. had be trying to get my commercials for years.
then the crash. then Life changed, suffer or have an op and be destined for the wheel chair. so didnt have op
In all this cought wifee in bed with another bloke
tried to sort out life divorce ensued
moral then on the floor confidence again on the floor
it was down or up
I chose up
strugged for 6 months got my class one back dispite CAA medical boys saying you daft.
enrolled on atlp ground school at oxford passed 5 out of 5 first batch 6 out of 8 second with final two last time out
cpl next got that. IR next got that
F I Next just finishing now
Rated on 22 206 355
confidance just starting to move forward moral just moving forward
so here were are today that is me
Bravo 99 was and is me it was not my intention to lie blind or baffle. if you look at all my input to sites todate (with the exception from friday to tonight) I have put forward information that I felt I had knowledge of and would be of assistance to the other people that have asked for that information.
I used a cover when I put my cv out purely becouse I did not know what the response would be. and seeing what it was can you blame me.
I put forward as simple statement without relating to my cred etc to find out about something that I did not know about but did not expect in the slightest to be considered for but was hoping that someone would pick up my details..
the abuse then started. and I then, having been backed into a corner tried to open up by putting myself forward but all this site did then was to push me further down into the pile of crap that you all seem intent on spending your time in.
I stated then an still do I am inexperienced. i have spent a considerable amount of time laying on my back not knowing if i would walk again so do you really think i would try for the slightest to end up back there by putting myslef or others at risk.
I also state that with guidance from a good mentor i could be moulded into a top pilot something that I and many along side me want to do. the attitude of some people though gives me sever doughts
the high hour pilots ( not all I hasten to add) on this forum seem intent on flexing there so called wealth of knowledge to run down and abuse new coming pilots to the piont on abuse
I have in the last 2 months having been at PAS for 5 months come out back into the civil world flown 2 Public transport ops.
1 as p2 the other as dress baggage with bars on. have seen full IFR flight being carried out with the pilot not
1) being IR rated
2) not flying quidrangle
3) not talking to any body on the rt
4) above the freezing level
5)no checks being carried out before or in flight
what I am as a low time pilot supposed to think when you see this. Of the so called high time pilots commercially experdicious is one thing this is going way beyond that though.
I have been open I did and do not intend to to lie but I did to try to allow me to come forward. but i do not intend to be abused in the way this site keeps trying.
I can only presume that you are the Modulator or his best mate. and I intend to clarify my legal standing with regard to release of information on the net.
for the rest of the low time pilots we have a hard and long way to go but we will survive
on closing
Moral 0
cred well I did not have any before so still 0
determination 100%
prune site cred -100%
thanks to over pitched and others for there support
John eacott respect Bomber arris respect
so you have 4 pages to fill be for the forum gets moved so fill your boots boys say what you want
Over to you
AJB watching brief only
all other stuff further down this page I am not interested in. you have said your bit I have said mine you are just blowing used air.
Right as it cards on deck
I AJB
23 years fires service
all details as past post
with additional as follows also owned construction company employing 23 staff untill divorse (see further down)
injured on duty 1999 by my driver rolling our appliance on route to a shout broke my back and spent a long time sorting this out. had be trying to get my commercials for years.
then the crash. then Life changed, suffer or have an op and be destined for the wheel chair. so didnt have op
In all this cought wifee in bed with another bloke
tried to sort out life divorce ensued
moral then on the floor confidence again on the floor
it was down or up
I chose up
strugged for 6 months got my class one back dispite CAA medical boys saying you daft.
enrolled on atlp ground school at oxford passed 5 out of 5 first batch 6 out of 8 second with final two last time out
cpl next got that. IR next got that
F I Next just finishing now
Rated on 22 206 355
confidance just starting to move forward moral just moving forward
so here were are today that is me
Bravo 99 was and is me it was not my intention to lie blind or baffle. if you look at all my input to sites todate (with the exception from friday to tonight) I have put forward information that I felt I had knowledge of and would be of assistance to the other people that have asked for that information.
I used a cover when I put my cv out purely becouse I did not know what the response would be. and seeing what it was can you blame me.
I put forward as simple statement without relating to my cred etc to find out about something that I did not know about but did not expect in the slightest to be considered for but was hoping that someone would pick up my details..
the abuse then started. and I then, having been backed into a corner tried to open up by putting myself forward but all this site did then was to push me further down into the pile of crap that you all seem intent on spending your time in.
I stated then an still do I am inexperienced. i have spent a considerable amount of time laying on my back not knowing if i would walk again so do you really think i would try for the slightest to end up back there by putting myslef or others at risk.
I also state that with guidance from a good mentor i could be moulded into a top pilot something that I and many along side me want to do. the attitude of some people though gives me sever doughts
the high hour pilots ( not all I hasten to add) on this forum seem intent on flexing there so called wealth of knowledge to run down and abuse new coming pilots to the piont on abuse
I have in the last 2 months having been at PAS for 5 months come out back into the civil world flown 2 Public transport ops.
1 as p2 the other as dress baggage with bars on. have seen full IFR flight being carried out with the pilot not
1) being IR rated
2) not flying quidrangle
3) not talking to any body on the rt
4) above the freezing level
5)no checks being carried out before or in flight
what I am as a low time pilot supposed to think when you see this. Of the so called high time pilots commercially experdicious is one thing this is going way beyond that though.
I have been open I did and do not intend to to lie but I did to try to allow me to come forward. but i do not intend to be abused in the way this site keeps trying.
I can only presume that you are the Modulator or his best mate. and I intend to clarify my legal standing with regard to release of information on the net.
for the rest of the low time pilots we have a hard and long way to go but we will survive
on closing
Moral 0
cred well I did not have any before so still 0
determination 100%
prune site cred -100%
thanks to over pitched and others for there support
John eacott respect Bomber arris respect
so you have 4 pages to fill be for the forum gets moved so fill your boots boys say what you want
Over to you
AJB watching brief only
Last edited by Bravo 99; 16th Feb 2004 at 02:46.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Between layers
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
paco, easy question....ask the oilworkers if they would like to fly with a 200 hour captain on the north sea on Dec 24 in shyte weather with some farfetched alternates and everything down to minima.
"They" are the real customers, so shouldn't they be heard ?
( note: for this scenario JAR rules have been disregarded )
"They" are the real customers, so shouldn't they be heard ?
( note: for this scenario JAR rules have been disregarded )
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PF1,
Always humble? No, just honest...with me what you see is what you get. But if you find my posts or my attitude grating, I don't mind in the least...hmmm, you mean I can get at you just by being myself, how.....amazingly simple.
Yes, I know you would have responded...differently. You'd have responded first, and thought afterwards. Me, I think first. They call it maturity I believe. I decided it wasn't worth it; I'd get more of what I wanted by being quiet and letting this idiot sound off if he wanted to, infuriating though it is. Of course, if he develops a taste for playing big bully that might change...and I can be VERY aggressive, with people and helicopters, if and when it's required. But when I decide, not when I'm goaded into it. Shocks people too, since it's a side of me they don't see very often. I'm just in it for Number One you see. I might get even with him some day too..or I might not bother since he's not worth it and grudges are hard work. Luckily I know he's computer-illiterate and won't be reading this...he can't do anything at all but fly helicopters. Anyway, I accept your apology...with amazement - jeez, you must be feeling good!!!!
Paco,
There are no 200 hour pilots on the North Sea because they don't need us. It's called supply and demand. Back before 9/11 there were; now they can get people with more hours, so they do. It's a tough old world out there.
Always humble? No, just honest...with me what you see is what you get. But if you find my posts or my attitude grating, I don't mind in the least...hmmm, you mean I can get at you just by being myself, how.....amazingly simple.
Yes, I know you would have responded...differently. You'd have responded first, and thought afterwards. Me, I think first. They call it maturity I believe. I decided it wasn't worth it; I'd get more of what I wanted by being quiet and letting this idiot sound off if he wanted to, infuriating though it is. Of course, if he develops a taste for playing big bully that might change...and I can be VERY aggressive, with people and helicopters, if and when it's required. But when I decide, not when I'm goaded into it. Shocks people too, since it's a side of me they don't see very often. I'm just in it for Number One you see. I might get even with him some day too..or I might not bother since he's not worth it and grudges are hard work. Luckily I know he's computer-illiterate and won't be reading this...he can't do anything at all but fly helicopters. Anyway, I accept your apology...with amazement - jeez, you must be feeling good!!!!Paco,
There are no 200 hour pilots on the North Sea because they don't need us. It's called supply and demand. Back before 9/11 there were; now they can get people with more hours, so they do. It's a tough old world out there.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Between layers
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirlybird, check out the latest adverts in flightinternational......
9/11 didn't create a downturn in flying in the northsea, actually the oil went up a buck or ten. Just my humble thoughts ...
9/11 didn't create a downturn in flying in the northsea, actually the oil went up a buck or ten. Just my humble thoughts ...
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: TI
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bravo 99,
I assume you are from the UK. Could you please edit your post so that those of us who's first language is not English can read it. As it is at present I cannot understand it.
Grazie - Ciao!
I assume you are from the UK. Could you please edit your post so that those of us who's first language is not English can read it. As it is at present I cannot understand it.
Grazie - Ciao!