Low-timers and (un)employability
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Autosync
I have to agree with you to a point but we are talking different ops here, 1 pilot twin engine heli and 2 pilot multi engine fixed wing.
If (for some obscure reason) I was told that the pilot of a 737 I was due to board, was going to be the only pilot on board and he was a brand new Oxford, or any other flying school, CPL with 300 ish hours and a 737 rating, I would refuse to get on the aircraft. That is unless I had a crystal ball that told me every system was going to work as it should, he wouldn't cock up his approach or that he wouldn't overload due to him having to concentrate on systems or procedures that were still relatively new to him whilst ATC were giving him unusual demands. Sorry, way too big a risk.
If he had the security of an experienced training captain next to him then fine. Of course it will not stop all eventualities and accidents but its sure one hell of a safety net.
All I'm trying to say, is that whilst new-ish pilots are still cutting their teeth learning to fly and airmanship, to introduce the complexities of managing systems and other factors seems to me a bad idea.
I have to agree with you to a point but we are talking different ops here, 1 pilot twin engine heli and 2 pilot multi engine fixed wing.
If (for some obscure reason) I was told that the pilot of a 737 I was due to board, was going to be the only pilot on board and he was a brand new Oxford, or any other flying school, CPL with 300 ish hours and a 737 rating, I would refuse to get on the aircraft. That is unless I had a crystal ball that told me every system was going to work as it should, he wouldn't cock up his approach or that he wouldn't overload due to him having to concentrate on systems or procedures that were still relatively new to him whilst ATC were giving him unusual demands. Sorry, way too big a risk.
If he had the security of an experienced training captain next to him then fine. Of course it will not stop all eventualities and accidents but its sure one hell of a safety net.
All I'm trying to say, is that whilst new-ish pilots are still cutting their teeth learning to fly and airmanship, to introduce the complexities of managing systems and other factors seems to me a bad idea.
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I have read this forum off and on for years now and after seeing this debate I just had to get a login name and give my two cents worth.
A little quick history on me. I have been flying commercially now for 3 years. I am just under 2000 hours. my first 1000 was instructing in the R22 and then I got about 50 hours in the jetranger and now the rest in the AS-350
Reading all of your posts really made me think back to my first 1000 hours. Mostly instructing or doing the odd photo flight or charter. I then had to decide if I felt that time was necessary in establishing my skills as a pilot or if I could have just gone strait into a larger aircraft and a more complex work environment at 200 or 300 hours
We all know that if we sit down for long enough and study the POH for just about any helicopter, we will eventually memorize the numbers and learn the procedures. If we have the basic flying skills most of us have after the first 100 hours, there is no reason, aside from getting it started maybe, that we can't pick it up and fly it.
Like many of you have already said, aside from having a few more buttons or switches, the bigger helicopter are easier to fly. Expecially when compared to the R22, which is likely one of the hardest to fly and most underpowered helicopters out there.
That said, I believe there are a lot of 200 or 300 hour pilots out there that are perfectly capable of flying the bigger machines. There also seems to be operators out there hiring people at that level to fly them.
What I don't agree with is the experience these pilots have (or don't have) when they are put into a position flying more technical jobs with more complex machines. There are a lot more factors involved than just memorizing the POH.
I hardly knew a thing at 300 hours and bairly do now. No matter how much reading I had done, I couldn't identify vibrations when something was going wrong.... Never felt a power loss because of fouled spark plugs or bad gas.... the adreniline rush the first time you heard your blade tape coming off..... Then there's the meteorological factors such as extreme turbulence, mountain flying, low visibility..... Don't forget about the Customer lying about their weight, screaming in your ear or worse yet, puking in your lap. The list goes on and on...
These are all things that only come with time and most of them need to be experienced before you are flying a 2 million dollar machine with 5 other passengers lives to worry about.
There is a reason most insurance companies as well as operators require 1000 hours to get a job. Yea, a lot of us might be ready at 500 hours or maybe even less but I feel it takes most people closer to 1000 before they start to develop the skills and decision making necessary to become a safe and professional helicopter pilot. The learning never ends either.
For you newbies out there: Hang in there. It takes a lot of time and money but if you have the desire and a little skill, you will succeed. Aside from a few sour apples, this industry really is a lot of fun. We actually get paid to fly around the world and look at an everchanging view of georgeous scenery. Get an office job if you want a lot of money but don't complain when your only view is a cubicle wall.
Well, enough rambling on for me. At least for now. I hope my perspective helps.
Ratherboutside
A little quick history on me. I have been flying commercially now for 3 years. I am just under 2000 hours. my first 1000 was instructing in the R22 and then I got about 50 hours in the jetranger and now the rest in the AS-350
Reading all of your posts really made me think back to my first 1000 hours. Mostly instructing or doing the odd photo flight or charter. I then had to decide if I felt that time was necessary in establishing my skills as a pilot or if I could have just gone strait into a larger aircraft and a more complex work environment at 200 or 300 hours
We all know that if we sit down for long enough and study the POH for just about any helicopter, we will eventually memorize the numbers and learn the procedures. If we have the basic flying skills most of us have after the first 100 hours, there is no reason, aside from getting it started maybe, that we can't pick it up and fly it.
Like many of you have already said, aside from having a few more buttons or switches, the bigger helicopter are easier to fly. Expecially when compared to the R22, which is likely one of the hardest to fly and most underpowered helicopters out there.
That said, I believe there are a lot of 200 or 300 hour pilots out there that are perfectly capable of flying the bigger machines. There also seems to be operators out there hiring people at that level to fly them.
What I don't agree with is the experience these pilots have (or don't have) when they are put into a position flying more technical jobs with more complex machines. There are a lot more factors involved than just memorizing the POH.
I hardly knew a thing at 300 hours and bairly do now. No matter how much reading I had done, I couldn't identify vibrations when something was going wrong.... Never felt a power loss because of fouled spark plugs or bad gas.... the adreniline rush the first time you heard your blade tape coming off..... Then there's the meteorological factors such as extreme turbulence, mountain flying, low visibility..... Don't forget about the Customer lying about their weight, screaming in your ear or worse yet, puking in your lap. The list goes on and on...
These are all things that only come with time and most of them need to be experienced before you are flying a 2 million dollar machine with 5 other passengers lives to worry about.
There is a reason most insurance companies as well as operators require 1000 hours to get a job. Yea, a lot of us might be ready at 500 hours or maybe even less but I feel it takes most people closer to 1000 before they start to develop the skills and decision making necessary to become a safe and professional helicopter pilot. The learning never ends either.
For you newbies out there: Hang in there. It takes a lot of time and money but if you have the desire and a little skill, you will succeed. Aside from a few sour apples, this industry really is a lot of fun. We actually get paid to fly around the world and look at an everchanging view of georgeous scenery. Get an office job if you want a lot of money but don't complain when your only view is a cubicle wall.
Well, enough rambling on for me. At least for now. I hope my perspective helps.
Ratherboutside
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Good reply's
But what I am saying is that flying a multi crew, multi engine commercial operation is completely different then flying a single pilot, single piston engine around a circuit.
You say you felt a Rush when you heard an abrasion strip come off, and you probably safely continued the flight, or safely landed, but a lot of 2000 hour pilots will never have had that feeling, a lot of 10,000 hour pilots may never have had to deal with a real life engine failure.
Everyday hundreds of "low" hour pilots, military pilots around the world get thrown into multi crew/engine environments.
And I assume most manage to efficiently get from A to B and land O.K, and over time become very proficient on type.
Why has the civilian world upped the bar so much?
Did it not work in the past, or is it just that the current climate allows the high hour guys to look out for they other high hour guys?
And as for flying in Europe, your right, it should be avoided at all costs, the fun of flying is just not there, these super tight restrictions make it hard to get any feeling of joy from the job.
Everybody should be given the opportunity to fly in the bush, its what its all about!
But what I am saying is that flying a multi crew, multi engine commercial operation is completely different then flying a single pilot, single piston engine around a circuit.
You say you felt a Rush when you heard an abrasion strip come off, and you probably safely continued the flight, or safely landed, but a lot of 2000 hour pilots will never have had that feeling, a lot of 10,000 hour pilots may never have had to deal with a real life engine failure.
Everyday hundreds of "low" hour pilots, military pilots around the world get thrown into multi crew/engine environments.
And I assume most manage to efficiently get from A to B and land O.K, and over time become very proficient on type.
Why has the civilian world upped the bar so much?
Did it not work in the past, or is it just that the current climate allows the high hour guys to look out for they other high hour guys?
And as for flying in Europe, your right, it should be avoided at all costs, the fun of flying is just not there, these super tight restrictions make it hard to get any feeling of joy from the job.
Everybody should be given the opportunity to fly in the bush, its what its all about!
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Speaking about hours vs experience.. one of my colleagues is currently on a CPL residential course. He told me today that one of the other students told him that he has never flown as PIC in controlled airspace, and was asking him how difficult it was!
And thinking about it, can anybody think of a reason why it wouldn't be possible to do all the flying for your CPL without ever needing to? A bit like not having to prove you can drive on a motorway before you get your driving licence, maybe?
Sounds crazy, but...
And thinking about it, can anybody think of a reason why it wouldn't be possible to do all the flying for your CPL without ever needing to? A bit like not having to prove you can drive on a motorway before you get your driving licence, maybe?
Sounds crazy, but...
Reading all this, I keep thinking about the Apache pilot a few months back that landed when caught out in fog: "I've only got eighty hours in the air" he was quoted as saying. How complex is an Apache ? The military obviously thought his eighty hours good enough to let him loose.
There is one big difference between a military and a civilian low houred pilot. The military pilot has been through an exhaustive selection procedure followed by intensive training before he is let out by himself on a routine task.
There were 16 pilots on my initial jet course and only 8 survived to reach operational flying. I was a combat ready helicopter pilot after about 700hrs (Chipmunk, JP5A, Whirlwind and Wessex 2) but still limited to being No 2 to a more experienced leader or participating, as a singleton, in the more simple tasks such as troop embark/disembark training.
The 80hrs quoted by the Apache pilot was in the Apache not a total.
I learnt alot in my first tour, made mistakes, explored the potential of the Wessex - we had about 5hrs of continuation training every month all without passengers!!
I feel for civilian pilots beginning their career but it is a hard world out there and it must be difficult for an employer to entrust his business to a low houred pilot unless he is using 2 crew helicopters.
However if you don't try you won't know what it is like to get paid for doing something that is so challenging, rewardable and enjoyable
HF
There were 16 pilots on my initial jet course and only 8 survived to reach operational flying. I was a combat ready helicopter pilot after about 700hrs (Chipmunk, JP5A, Whirlwind and Wessex 2) but still limited to being No 2 to a more experienced leader or participating, as a singleton, in the more simple tasks such as troop embark/disembark training.
The 80hrs quoted by the Apache pilot was in the Apache not a total.
I learnt alot in my first tour, made mistakes, explored the potential of the Wessex - we had about 5hrs of continuation training every month all without passengers!!
I feel for civilian pilots beginning their career but it is a hard world out there and it must be difficult for an employer to entrust his business to a low houred pilot unless he is using 2 crew helicopters.
However if you don't try you won't know what it is like to get paid for doing something that is so challenging, rewardable and enjoyable
HF
The Original Whirly
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Stevie,
I know someone who got a CPL, but had never been through a MATZ. He was from Oz or NZ, then did his CPL in the UK, and was supposed to go through a MATZ during the course, but never did. No big deal, except it was totally new to him, and he sounded like he wouldn't be sure what to do.
I know someone who got a CPL, but had never been through a MATZ. He was from Oz or NZ, then did his CPL in the UK, and was supposed to go through a MATZ during the course, but never did. No big deal, except it was totally new to him, and he sounded like he wouldn't be sure what to do.
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ChairmanoftheBoard,
Don't take this the wrong way but maybe the eason you did it hard was because you come off as being an arrogant son of a bitch! Sh#t! You sound like my grandfather..."back when I was a boy I had to walk 20kms to school..." Don't dare knock someone for having a go. I'd be willing to bet money that if a company employed you and the newbie at the same time, you'd be sacked first for your attitude alone.
Don't take this the wrong way but maybe the eason you did it hard was because you come off as being an arrogant son of a bitch! Sh#t! You sound like my grandfather..."back when I was a boy I had to walk 20kms to school..." Don't dare knock someone for having a go. I'd be willing to bet money that if a company employed you and the newbie at the same time, you'd be sacked first for your attitude alone.
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Hummingfrog
just curious, how many hours out of your 700, would have been in comand?
>"The military pilot has been through an exhaustive selection procedure followed by intensive training before he is let out by himself on a routine task."
civilian pilots do the intensive training before knowing that they will be weeded out by a companies exhaustive selection proceses. sort of ass about realy. but exploring the potential of the aircraft is part of the leaning curve which happends in the first couple hundred hours.
what would your average day (not everything you might get to do) of flying incorporate in the army? my impression of the army would be flying from a to b in formation and landing in a paddock that will occomodate a large amount of aircraft, is this a good assumption? a tour would be damn side harder but tours arnt normal. just curious
>"The military pilot has been through an exhaustive selection procedure followed by intensive training before he is let out by himself on a routine task."
civilian pilots do the intensive training before knowing that they will be weeded out by a companies exhaustive selection proceses. sort of ass about realy. but exploring the potential of the aircraft is part of the leaning curve which happends in the first couple hundred hours.
what would your average day (not everything you might get to do) of flying incorporate in the army? my impression of the army would be flying from a to b in formation and landing in a paddock that will occomodate a large amount of aircraft, is this a good assumption? a tour would be damn side harder but tours arnt normal. just curious
Hi Vorticey
I won't take offence that you thought I was in the Army!! I am ex RAF and of the 700ish hrs about 60hr where Capt in the Chipmunk (at University) 40hr in the JP5A (basic jet trainer) 25hr in the Whirlwind 10 (a rotary Chipmunk!!) and 120hr In the Wessex 2.
During my 1st tour in Germany there was no such thing as a normal day. The tasking varied from singleton Stage 1 drills training the Army on the basics of getting in/out of the helicopter by hover jump roping etc to 18 ship Squadron assaults on bridges.
Further tours were on SAR which varied from the Piper Alpha oil rig disaster to topless girls on inflatable toys!!
I always found it mystifying that the Army used different maps to the RAF. Often when doing a night sun insertion we called for the light, carried by the Army Scout helicopter, to be switched on to find it illuminating a different field to the one we were aiming for!!!
HF
I won't take offence that you thought I was in the Army!! I am ex RAF and of the 700ish hrs about 60hr where Capt in the Chipmunk (at University) 40hr in the JP5A (basic jet trainer) 25hr in the Whirlwind 10 (a rotary Chipmunk!!) and 120hr In the Wessex 2.
During my 1st tour in Germany there was no such thing as a normal day. The tasking varied from singleton Stage 1 drills training the Army on the basics of getting in/out of the helicopter by hover jump roping etc to 18 ship Squadron assaults on bridges.
Further tours were on SAR which varied from the Piper Alpha oil rig disaster to topless girls on inflatable toys!!
I always found it mystifying that the Army used different maps to the RAF. Often when doing a night sun insertion we called for the light, carried by the Army Scout helicopter, to be switched on to find it illuminating a different field to the one we were aiming for!!!
HF
Went solo in my 1st helo after .5hrs......work that one out?
Christ there is some collateral damage here:
B99 lost his engine around page 4. Crashed and burned. Though the registration on the wreckage was not the same as that seen on the ship prior to being hit
PF#1 lost his hydraulics, couldn't control his ship, caught fire and had to return to base around about page 5.
Chairmanoftheboard came out of the sun and shot up a few stragglers - page 7.
SS: slipped and fell on his trigger - lead everywhere
Whirlybird made the tea.
RIP: All those lost in the:
battle of the Rotorheads. 1945 - 2004
(GMT)
PS: If I erase my profile, can I get a second crack at my lifes ambitions too?
Hovering AND talking
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TC - that's the funniest thing on this thread 
Although there are always casualties in war and this battle may now be over, I'm sure that there are others who live to fight another day
Cheers
Whirlygig
Although there are always casualties in war and this battle may now be over, I'm sure that there are others who live to fight another day
Cheers
Whirlygig
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
TC
I'm still here, just lying up in an OP on the hill!
Unfortunately, with all B99 s deletions and edits, it turned into a becalmed thread for me.
Plea to all,
Please don't turn this into an inter service slanging match.
SS
I'm still here, just lying up in an OP on the hill!
Unfortunately, with all B99 s deletions and edits, it turned into a becalmed thread for me.
Plea to all,
Please don't turn this into an inter service slanging match.
SS
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Hummingfrog
only the army has the helicopters in australia.
255 hours comand out of 700 is not much, they make you sit there for a long time before letting you out to play, dont they. after 445hrs duel i could nealy be combat ready myself,although some would have been acting in comand i spose. i only have 890hrs which 835 is command (much smaller helicopters though).
robbo jock why wouldnt the appache pilot be capable, he had more hours on type than i needed to get my licence! not that getting caught in fog is type related
255 hours comand out of 700 is not much, they make you sit there for a long time before letting you out to play, dont they. after 445hrs duel i could nealy be combat ready myself,although some would have been acting in comand i spose. i only have 890hrs which 835 is command (much smaller helicopters though).
robbo jock why wouldnt the appache pilot be capable, he had more hours on type than i needed to get my licence! not that getting caught in fog is type related
Vorticey et al
The Apache pilot was quoted as saying he had 80 hours "in the air", not "on type". It just struck me as bizarre that he'd be let loose on an Apache with that number of hours when posters on this thread have said people with far more hours shouldn't be allowed anywhere near far less complex aircraft.
I'm only jealous 'cos I'd like one of those big macho helmets with the monocles but I'd look bl##dy stupid wearing it in the R22 !
The Apache pilot was quoted as saying he had 80 hours "in the air", not "on type". It just struck me as bizarre that he'd be let loose on an Apache with that number of hours when posters on this thread have said people with far more hours shouldn't be allowed anywhere near far less complex aircraft.
I'm only jealous 'cos I'd like one of those big macho helmets with the monocles but I'd look bl##dy stupid wearing it in the R22 !
