The end of JAA PPL's in the U.S. A ???
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Well I think the UK can offer a lot to the US and vice versa.The US could adopt our trade and employment polices and we could adopt there low cost ,open to everyone GA Industry.
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WARNING:WELSHMAN STILL AT IT
After his bleating and attempted diversions, the jury's still out on one mixed-up and mutton-headed moderator but....
The point of this was JAR PPL's in USA
As was said, at the start, there has been a school cull and the truth, from the CAA, is that there are now only 4 places for:
JAR-FCL 1 PRIVATE PILOT LICENCE (AEROPLANE)
Approved by the UK CAA for training for JAR-FCL 1 PPL (A) outside of a JAR member state
Orlando Flight Training (-the Cabair crammer/clipper in Florida)
European Flight Training (-a nearly new nipper)
Flight Training College of Africa (Pty) Limited (-S. of Zimbabwe)
BTW- the (joke descriptions) are not from Aviation House and
-CAA make no reference to any OATS JAR PPL approval in USA
I have only met a few who went to any of the others. Any school and training might be big, cheaper and better (or small, crap and expensive) but, whatever, I just don't see how anyone reckons that these few (only 3 in USA) approved schools could take on a major share of all the PPL training- either from UK or rest of JARLAND.
Anyway, some people simply won't have the time or ability to do a 3 week PPL course and, as always, most students will train over the whole of the spring and summer, at a local airfield, paying for a lesson whenever there is enough cash, an aircraft available and suitable weather for it.
So amazed anyone, especially WWW but excluding the flying club CFI's, on here wants to cut choice and competition for Wannabes.
Trade protection is always bad for the punters.
Is anyone really suggesting stopping the Go, Easy, Ryan etc. 'rubbish' and returning to the 'good' old days- of BOAC/BEA !?.
WARNING: WELSHMAN LOSING IT
Please note and further to the above, I have had to edit out/remove the most recent rantings of our mad moderator, which he had the audacity, or is it lunacy?, to insert on my posting and between my points ! Like anyone, he is entitled to his fantasies, obsessions, opinions, prejudices and pet-hates but, apart from being largely off-topic and cat-calling, his contributions- including his proposals on Portugal's economic and political policy !! (which would be as big a laugh in Lisbon as they are in Leeds) and his Flying Instructors (interests are more important than those of students !!!) froth- should, like WWW, be posted or promoted elsewhere.
After his bleating and attempted diversions, the jury's still out on one mixed-up and mutton-headed moderator but....
The point of this was JAR PPL's in USA
As was said, at the start, there has been a school cull and the truth, from the CAA, is that there are now only 4 places for:
JAR-FCL 1 PRIVATE PILOT LICENCE (AEROPLANE)
Approved by the UK CAA for training for JAR-FCL 1 PPL (A) outside of a JAR member state
Orlando Flight Training (-the Cabair crammer/clipper in Florida)
European Flight Training (-a nearly new nipper)
Flight Training College of Africa (Pty) Limited (-S. of Zimbabwe)
BTW- the (joke descriptions) are not from Aviation House and
-CAA make no reference to any OATS JAR PPL approval in USA
I have only met a few who went to any of the others. Any school and training might be big, cheaper and better (or small, crap and expensive) but, whatever, I just don't see how anyone reckons that these few (only 3 in USA) approved schools could take on a major share of all the PPL training- either from UK or rest of JARLAND.
Anyway, some people simply won't have the time or ability to do a 3 week PPL course and, as always, most students will train over the whole of the spring and summer, at a local airfield, paying for a lesson whenever there is enough cash, an aircraft available and suitable weather for it.
So amazed anyone, especially WWW but excluding the flying club CFI's, on here wants to cut choice and competition for Wannabes.
Trade protection is always bad for the punters.
Is anyone really suggesting stopping the Go, Easy, Ryan etc. 'rubbish' and returning to the 'good' old days- of BOAC/BEA !?.
WARNING: WELSHMAN LOSING IT
Please note and further to the above, I have had to edit out/remove the most recent rantings of our mad moderator, which he had the audacity, or is it lunacy?, to insert on my posting and between my points ! Like anyone, he is entitled to his fantasies, obsessions, opinions, prejudices and pet-hates but, apart from being largely off-topic and cat-calling, his contributions- including his proposals on Portugal's economic and political policy !! (which would be as big a laugh in Lisbon as they are in Leeds) and his Flying Instructors (interests are more important than those of students !!!) froth- should, like WWW, be posted or promoted elsewhere.
Last edited by PPRuNe Towers; 4th Apr 2002 at 09:42.
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OK Meeb:
If you feel I am muddying the waters how about giving me your opinion on the following.
Several years ago I had to write the Commercial Gyroplane Rotorcraft exam. It was a one hundred question exam of which seven were on determining time and distance by using time and bearing changes with an ADF.
Now if that is not stupid as well as about the most inefficient method of determining your position in this modern age please tell me what you would call it?.
Just one example of stupidity in the training, exam requirements brought into the sylabus because some moron had nothing better to do.
Have you ever "had" to use the ADF to determine time and distance from an NDB or any other radio transmitter that an ADF will receive?
......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
If you feel I am muddying the waters how about giving me your opinion on the following.
Several years ago I had to write the Commercial Gyroplane Rotorcraft exam. It was a one hundred question exam of which seven were on determining time and distance by using time and bearing changes with an ADF.
Now if that is not stupid as well as about the most inefficient method of determining your position in this modern age please tell me what you would call it?.
Just one example of stupidity in the training, exam requirements brought into the sylabus because some moron had nothing better to do.
Have you ever "had" to use the ADF to determine time and distance from an NDB or any other radio transmitter that an ADF will receive?
......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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And Meeb..thankyou for your kind comment about my signature..its actually a quote from none other than Benny Hill 
And I`m not a flying instructor..plain 19 year old 45 hour PPL..
And I`m not a flying instructor..plain 19 year old 45 hour PPL..
Chuck: exam of which seven were on determining time and distance by using time and bearing changes with an ADF.
Chuck, I have on many occassions whilst working as a PPL instructor had to rely on single indication NDB navigation using a manually set OBS. There are plenty of aircraft out there without VOR DME fit and plenty of airfields and areas without VOR or radar coverage in the the UK. Just like I had to use the speechless procedure for real once - now sadly no longer part of the syllabus under JAA. As for dropping the requirement to learn Morse code at the CPL/ATPL level - lunacy! But this digresses us.
-------
notice - stop throwing insults please. I have argued my views and you are welcome to disagree with them. But that is all.
Those 4 schools that you list take at a rough guestimate something like 15,000 flying hours out of UK flying schools.Thats about 20 flying instructors livelihoods a year.
I did indeed reply to each of the points you raised in your last post. You've deleted them which is your choice.
My point about Portugal was I feel a valid one.
With BAE being the only school to have moved from one JAA state to another I think we need to give things time to adjust in JAA land. What I would like to see is - say Portugal - decide to encourage flight training within its borders. They could drop local tax on vocational training (no VAT on flying lessons) reduce their already lower petrol taxes, exploit their favourable climate, their underused airspace, their cheap labour and building costs. There is no reason why Portugal should not become the Florida of European aviation.
I would have no problem with any of that. They could easily be as cheap as the USA and just as popular. This being the case then any flying instructor from any JAA member state could permanently and easily relocate to Portugal - our new focus of flight training. That might mean things get even harder for UK flight schools. Well thats competition for you. Thats choice.
What is unfair is for a country outside of out trading agreements to come in and poach our customers whilst denying us the right to relocate there. Whilst Florida exists there is no viable chance for the Portugese Ministry of Enterprise to make the case for becoming the flight training hub of JAA land.
notice - can you please give us your thoughts about the Kiddlington OATS flying instructors currently under notice of redundancy and OATS proposed move to Tyler in the USA? To me it looks like American flying instructors 1, British flying instructors 0.
WWW
Chuck, I have on many occassions whilst working as a PPL instructor had to rely on single indication NDB navigation using a manually set OBS. There are plenty of aircraft out there without VOR DME fit and plenty of airfields and areas without VOR or radar coverage in the the UK. Just like I had to use the speechless procedure for real once - now sadly no longer part of the syllabus under JAA. As for dropping the requirement to learn Morse code at the CPL/ATPL level - lunacy! But this digresses us.
-------
notice - stop throwing insults please. I have argued my views and you are welcome to disagree with them. But that is all.
Those 4 schools that you list take at a rough guestimate something like 15,000 flying hours out of UK flying schools.Thats about 20 flying instructors livelihoods a year.
I did indeed reply to each of the points you raised in your last post. You've deleted them which is your choice.
My point about Portugal was I feel a valid one.
With BAE being the only school to have moved from one JAA state to another I think we need to give things time to adjust in JAA land. What I would like to see is - say Portugal - decide to encourage flight training within its borders. They could drop local tax on vocational training (no VAT on flying lessons) reduce their already lower petrol taxes, exploit their favourable climate, their underused airspace, their cheap labour and building costs. There is no reason why Portugal should not become the Florida of European aviation.
I would have no problem with any of that. They could easily be as cheap as the USA and just as popular. This being the case then any flying instructor from any JAA member state could permanently and easily relocate to Portugal - our new focus of flight training. That might mean things get even harder for UK flight schools. Well thats competition for you. Thats choice.
What is unfair is for a country outside of out trading agreements to come in and poach our customers whilst denying us the right to relocate there. Whilst Florida exists there is no viable chance for the Portugese Ministry of Enterprise to make the case for becoming the flight training hub of JAA land.
notice - can you please give us your thoughts about the Kiddlington OATS flying instructors currently under notice of redundancy and OATS proposed move to Tyler in the USA? To me it looks like American flying instructors 1, British flying instructors 0.
WWW
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WWW,
You still miss the point...
It is not the yanks that 'poach' us, but the high costs involved over here that 'drive' us away......do you really believe the yanks could give two hoots about training JAA students? Most JAA schools in the US were started by Brits who saw an emerging market, and capitalized on it. The FAA CFIs couldn't give a toss whether they train JAA students or FAA students. But Equally, what about the British instructors working in the US training FAA pilots because they have an FAA CFI rating? It may only be for two years, but I'd say the number of Brits in the US training US students for the FAA raings is higher than the number of US CFIs training Brits. Indeed, all my IR training was carried out with a British instructor with FAA CFII rating.
Its the whole attitude of GA in this country which has caused this problem....money money moeny. If you want IMC training you pay more, if you want instrument training you pay more again, if you want to shoot an approach, you pay for it, if you want to fly from A to B you have to pay your landing fees, if you want to park over night, you pay more again. I recently flew to Palomar airport in CA, and parked over night, do you know what it cost....? $3.00. Now thats what I call a fair price.
Cheers
EA
You still miss the point...
What is unfair is for a country outside of out trading agreements to come in and poach our customers whilst denying us the right to relocate there.
Its the whole attitude of GA in this country which has caused this problem....money money moeny. If you want IMC training you pay more, if you want instrument training you pay more again, if you want to shoot an approach, you pay for it, if you want to fly from A to B you have to pay your landing fees, if you want to park over night, you pay more again. I recently flew to Palomar airport in CA, and parked over night, do you know what it cost....? $3.00. Now thats what I call a fair price.
Cheers
EA
I don't wish to re-hash all this - we've all had enough. Clearly there are arguments and strong opinions both ways.
Time will tell what happens post JAA.
Cheers,
WWW
Time will tell what happens post JAA.
Cheers,
WWW
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WWW, glad to hear you've calmed down (or sobered-up?)
Your last posting can only mean 'bat and ball home', after a beating, so trust you are now able to modify your behaviour.
BTW, if you ever go to Florida or Texas, do NOT call the locals 'Yank/Yankee' (unless you want another unpleasant learning experience). Also, avoid use of 'boy'. This is more challenging for a Celt but, beware, it might be your last insult.
Your last posting can only mean 'bat and ball home', after a beating, so trust you are now able to modify your behaviour.
BTW, if you ever go to Florida or Texas, do NOT call the locals 'Yank/Yankee' (unless you want another unpleasant learning experience). Also, avoid use of 'boy'. This is more challenging for a Celt but, beware, it might be your last insult.
At no time was I either angry or drunk. I am coolly disspasionate about what is a rather dry topic - JAA training accreditation.
Err, thanks for the 'tip'. If you ever go to Wales don't call anyone Boyo and whatever you do don't touch another mans sheep...
WWW
Err, thanks for the 'tip'. If you ever go to Wales don't call anyone Boyo and whatever you do don't touch another mans sheep...
WWW
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Hey Weasley:
The point I was driving at was we are no longer flying in the world of Radio Ranges, ADF, Celestial navigation and HF radios as our only means of communication.
I may be wrong but to have seven questions on such a doubious means of determining time and distance is really stupid.
I sort of agree on the morse code thing for the identifying of radio aids, however voice idents were brought into the system as far back as the early sixties and make far more sense than morse code.
By the way when I received my instrument rating training in the 1950's we had to read morse randomly selected by the examiner before taxiing.
Having said all that I flew many, many thousands of hours IFR and never, never,never had to figure out time and distance by using an ADF to figure time and distance. I have never really flown an ADF that was accurate enough to exactly determine the real bearing of a station with any reliability.
Anyhow enough of this, are you going to make it to North Weald when we are doing the flying there?
......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
The point I was driving at was we are no longer flying in the world of Radio Ranges, ADF, Celestial navigation and HF radios as our only means of communication.
I may be wrong but to have seven questions on such a doubious means of determining time and distance is really stupid.
I sort of agree on the morse code thing for the identifying of radio aids, however voice idents were brought into the system as far back as the early sixties and make far more sense than morse code.
By the way when I received my instrument rating training in the 1950's we had to read morse randomly selected by the examiner before taxiing.
Having said all that I flew many, many thousands of hours IFR and never, never,never had to figure out time and distance by using an ADF to figure time and distance. I have never really flown an ADF that was accurate enough to exactly determine the real bearing of a station with any reliability.
Anyhow enough of this, are you going to make it to North Weald when we are doing the flying there?
......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Hey Weasley:
The point I was driving at was we are no longer flying in the world of Radio Ranges, ADF, Celestial navigation and HF radios as our only means of communication.
I regularly fly outside of the promulagated range of VOR's and ADF's across the Bay of Biscay.
I may be wrong but to have seven questions on such a doubious means of determining time and distance is really stupid.
Not really. If you can't work out a simple bearing/distance/time problem then best you don't fly a jet airliiner..
I sort of agree on the morse code thing for the identifying of radio aids, however voice idents were brought into the system as far back as the early sixties and make far more sense than morse code.
No voice idents in Europe. And not at all common in the rest of the world. What about NDB and ILS DME idents? What about visual beacon idents of airfields?
By the way when I received my instrument rating training in the 1950's we had to read morse randomly selected by the examiner before taxiing.
Having said all that I flew many, many thousands of hours IFR and never, never,never had to figure out time and distance by using an ADF to figure time and distance. I have never really flown an ADF that was accurate enough to exactly determine the real bearing of a station with any reliability.
Well the procedures are drawn with +- 5 degrees allowance for the NDB - that should be enough.
Cheers,
WWW
The point I was driving at was we are no longer flying in the world of Radio Ranges, ADF, Celestial navigation and HF radios as our only means of communication.
I regularly fly outside of the promulagated range of VOR's and ADF's across the Bay of Biscay.
I may be wrong but to have seven questions on such a doubious means of determining time and distance is really stupid.
Not really. If you can't work out a simple bearing/distance/time problem then best you don't fly a jet airliiner..
I sort of agree on the morse code thing for the identifying of radio aids, however voice idents were brought into the system as far back as the early sixties and make far more sense than morse code.
No voice idents in Europe. And not at all common in the rest of the world. What about NDB and ILS DME idents? What about visual beacon idents of airfields?
By the way when I received my instrument rating training in the 1950's we had to read morse randomly selected by the examiner before taxiing.
Having said all that I flew many, many thousands of hours IFR and never, never,never had to figure out time and distance by using an ADF to figure time and distance. I have never really flown an ADF that was accurate enough to exactly determine the real bearing of a station with any reliability.
Well the procedures are drawn with +- 5 degrees allowance for the NDB - that should be enough.
Cheers,
WWW
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OK Weasly:
I just can't seem to get through to you what I am trying to say.
As to the + or - 5 deg. with an ADF needle that is just being intelectually dishonest , you know damn well that is pure crap.
I knew how to figure simple time and distance problems when flying probably before you were born, and as far as flying jets go that is being nothing but condesending, has it occured to you that maybe I was flying jets long before you were around?
One more little comment as far as international navigation goes, I just checked my records and during the past six years I have flown to forty six different countries related to my ferry business. ( Have you landed at that many different airports? nevermind different countries? )
Don't you think that I just may know almost as much about flying as you? One more thing Weasly, being beyond receiving distance of VOR's etc. is normal during trans oceanic ferry flights so what exactly is your point?
Now my dear friend, once again I will be at North Weald around the end of May and me and my crew would just love for you to drop by and share your expertise with us.
Hell if you are really nice I might let you try and fly a real airplane!!
Cat Driver:
.............
The hardest thing about flying is kowing when to say no.
I just can't seem to get through to you what I am trying to say.
As to the + or - 5 deg. with an ADF needle that is just being intelectually dishonest , you know damn well that is pure crap.
I knew how to figure simple time and distance problems when flying probably before you were born, and as far as flying jets go that is being nothing but condesending, has it occured to you that maybe I was flying jets long before you were around?
One more little comment as far as international navigation goes, I just checked my records and during the past six years I have flown to forty six different countries related to my ferry business. ( Have you landed at that many different airports? nevermind different countries? )
Don't you think that I just may know almost as much about flying as you? One more thing Weasly, being beyond receiving distance of VOR's etc. is normal during trans oceanic ferry flights so what exactly is your point?
Now my dear friend, once again I will be at North Weald around the end of May and me and my crew would just love for you to drop by and share your expertise with us.
Hell if you are really nice I might let you try and fly a real airplane!!
Cat Driver:
.............
The hardest thing about flying is kowing when to say no.
The Oracle
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Chuck,
Something I found interesting, when I renewed my CFI last month, was the new view by the FAA on training.
They are now encouraging CRM. It is not a full blown CRM, but utilization of the person in the right seat.
They are now looking favorably at telling the person on the right to pull out a chart, take the controls of the aircraft and hold a heading, etc.
You still need to demonstrate you are capable of doing it on your own, but they are looking for good use of all the recourses in the cockpit, which includes the instructor and examiner.
It's a small step in the right direction!
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Something I found interesting, when I renewed my CFI last month, was the new view by the FAA on training.
They are now encouraging CRM. It is not a full blown CRM, but utilization of the person in the right seat.
They are now looking favorably at telling the person on the right to pull out a chart, take the controls of the aircraft and hold a heading, etc.
You still need to demonstrate you are capable of doing it on your own, but they are looking for good use of all the recourses in the cockpit, which includes the instructor and examiner.
It's a small step in the right direction!
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Richard:
CRM when properly thought out and aheared to is one of the most important disiplines in flight safety.
Many years ago I flew for Mobil Oil and they had the best crew coordination I had seen to that point in time and I have used the lessons learned ever since.
For me there should be very slight difference between the Captain and the first officer except the Captain has final authority.
As far as flying goes I split it 50 / 50 period, including changing seats.
There is no restricions as to weather decisions or take off and landing conditions. The pilot flying that leg or sector will perform all flying duties for that leg. Generally speaking if the x/wind or weather minimums are to difficult for the first officer they then are by definition not doable for either pilot.
My basic beliefe is the first officer be brought to Captain standards in the shortest time possible as far as the actual flying skills are concerned.
Experience will then be the only limiting factor to Captancy.
One other very, important item. When I held chief pilot positions in large flight operations if personality clashes arose I would seperate the pilots involved as safety is compromized when two pilots resent each other..It is unavoidable in the real world of human nature, so we should make all effort to watch for and seperate such indivuals.
Another comment, I found the first officers to be invaluable when trying to determine if there was a crew problem that needed correcting, all I did was listen and very often the warning signs were there to see. ( It is amazing what fratrenizing with the crew will bring out in the right circumstances,,usually in a bar.)
......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
CRM when properly thought out and aheared to is one of the most important disiplines in flight safety.
Many years ago I flew for Mobil Oil and they had the best crew coordination I had seen to that point in time and I have used the lessons learned ever since.
For me there should be very slight difference between the Captain and the first officer except the Captain has final authority.
As far as flying goes I split it 50 / 50 period, including changing seats.
There is no restricions as to weather decisions or take off and landing conditions. The pilot flying that leg or sector will perform all flying duties for that leg. Generally speaking if the x/wind or weather minimums are to difficult for the first officer they then are by definition not doable for either pilot.
My basic beliefe is the first officer be brought to Captain standards in the shortest time possible as far as the actual flying skills are concerned.
Experience will then be the only limiting factor to Captancy.
One other very, important item. When I held chief pilot positions in large flight operations if personality clashes arose I would seperate the pilots involved as safety is compromized when two pilots resent each other..It is unavoidable in the real world of human nature, so we should make all effort to watch for and seperate such indivuals.
Another comment, I found the first officers to be invaluable when trying to determine if there was a crew problem that needed correcting, all I did was listen and very often the warning signs were there to see. ( It is amazing what fratrenizing with the crew will bring out in the right circumstances,,usually in a bar.)
......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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WWW seems to have changed tact from supporting UK GA to JAA EA, ie.
No it won't. Even if half the British PPL's currently training in the US don't ever train due to the extra costs the UK GA scene will benefit from millions and millions of extra revenue every year. Less pilots yes. More money for UK airfields yes.<
and..
This costs jobs in the UK flight training industry and undermines the development and expansion of UK (or JAA) GA flight training.. .. .Its all very well saving a few quid on your PPL course by going to the States but then you shouldn't cry about their being no Flying Instructors jobs for you in this country once you have that coveted CPL
to...
If BAe move your job from Prestwick to Jerez (as they did) then you can hop on the next flight to Spain and relocate without filling in a form and continue your career.
Seems to me that WWW argument doesnt hold any water now asby BAE moving to Jerez, or any other JAA member State, the upshot is the same - GA in UK goes downhill because no one is in the UK to do any flying they are all abroad!!!
JAA or US the money is outside the country.
Not everyone wants to work in Spain, OK if you are single but what about those with famailies, jobs, houses, etc...?
What do you want to do WWW?
Keep money in UK GA or not?
Julian.
No it won't. Even if half the British PPL's currently training in the US don't ever train due to the extra costs the UK GA scene will benefit from millions and millions of extra revenue every year. Less pilots yes. More money for UK airfields yes.<
and..
This costs jobs in the UK flight training industry and undermines the development and expansion of UK (or JAA) GA flight training.. .. .Its all very well saving a few quid on your PPL course by going to the States but then you shouldn't cry about their being no Flying Instructors jobs for you in this country once you have that coveted CPL
to...
If BAe move your job from Prestwick to Jerez (as they did) then you can hop on the next flight to Spain and relocate without filling in a form and continue your career.
Seems to me that WWW argument doesnt hold any water now asby BAE moving to Jerez, or any other JAA member State, the upshot is the same - GA in UK goes downhill because no one is in the UK to do any flying they are all abroad!!!
JAA or US the money is outside the country.
Not everyone wants to work in Spain, OK if you are single but what about those with famailies, jobs, houses, etc...?
What do you want to do WWW?
Keep money in UK GA or not?
Julian.
Julian - I want to keep money within the economic area that I have a right to work in. Preferably the UK but we are in the EU and JAA now - hence the UK CAA having to come in line with what France and Germany want, i.e. No JAA training in the US.
Local GA is likely to be best supported by locals doing PPL or NPPL courses. People doing professional training would be the more likely to locate around the EU. Either will benefit from the US being disallowed.
More pointedly I want all the OATS instructors to keep their jobs in preference to Hank Banderbuger III at Tyler.
---------
Chuck,
As to the + or - 5 deg. with an ADF needle that is just being intelectually dishonest , you know damn well that is pure crap.
Is it? I know no such thing. If you can't hold an ADF within +-5 degrees you fail your IRT.
I merely raised the point that ADF navigation skills are still very relevant in the UK. I have had to do half a dozen NDB approaches in a Boeing in the last 3 months. I raised this point not as a challenge but you appear to have taken umbrage...
Congratulations on flying before I was born. I will be flying after you are dead. Same thing really.
Cheers,
WWW
Local GA is likely to be best supported by locals doing PPL or NPPL courses. People doing professional training would be the more likely to locate around the EU. Either will benefit from the US being disallowed.
More pointedly I want all the OATS instructors to keep their jobs in preference to Hank Banderbuger III at Tyler.
---------
Chuck,
As to the + or - 5 deg. with an ADF needle that is just being intelectually dishonest , you know damn well that is pure crap.
Is it? I know no such thing. If you can't hold an ADF within +-5 degrees you fail your IRT.
I merely raised the point that ADF navigation skills are still very relevant in the UK. I have had to do half a dozen NDB approaches in a Boeing in the last 3 months. I raised this point not as a challenge but you appear to have taken umbrage...
Congratulations on flying before I was born. I will be flying after you are dead. Same thing really.
Cheers,
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Congratulations on flying before I was born. I will be flying after you are dead. Same thing really.
It is not the same thing at all. What Chuck is trying to tell you, and which you don't get, is that is that he knows a **** load more about flying than you do. Also there is no guarantee that you will be flying when he is dead. There is also no guarantee that you will ever be as competent a pilot as Chuck, even when he IS dead
Not really. If you can't work out a simple bearing/distance/time problem then best you don't fly a jet airliiner..
I really liked Chuck's opinion (or whoever he is now, lol) that a FO should be similarly skilled to his captain. Back to the whole premise of this thread (JAA and FAA training), I find it illustrative that it is possible in JAA land to be a FO in a passenger jet with only 250 hours. That would never happen in FAA land. In fact, in a previous thread you stated that it was a reason why FAA was inferior to JAA.
Now I'm sure that a 250 hour JAA CPL can fly figure of eights around an NDB for hours with far more precision than a 250 hour FAA CPL (I've see the JAA boys training in PHX do it in the sim I am so very impressed). I'm less impressed when I get on a 737 in JAA land and consider the possibility that if the captain makes a bad/borderline decision our 250 hour FO doesn't have the experience to know this is a bad decision, and so use his (probably excellent on paper) CRM skills to do something about it.
But during that thread you were obviously saying that the system should be set up for the professional pilots, it was good because you could be a professional pilot with 250 hours. It's only going to be a matter of time before a plane goes down and the accident report says 'probable cause, inexperience of FO'. You obviously don't care much about the consumer being able to choose how he spends his time and money, but I'd have though you would care more about your passengers! Your FO in an FAA jet may be less precise in his ADF skills, but who cares, he will be competant. The system here is set up to provide him with the vast experience he needs before becoming FO in a jet with 150 people behind him. You have to face the facts, it's better in FAA land, and you should not be stopping people from coming here to train at facilities over here and experience all this. If JAA/Europe was set up like FAA/USA then maybe our low time pilot would be able to be gain some good experience prior to his first real job, but it isn't, so he cannot.
Cheers
Congratulations on flying before I was born. I will be flying after you are dead. Same thing really.
It is not the same thing at all. What Chuck is trying to tell you, and which you don't get, is that is that he knows a **** load more about flying than you do. Also there is no guarantee that you will be flying when he is dead. There is also no guarantee that you will ever be as competent a pilot as Chuck, even when he IS dead
Not really. If you can't work out a simple bearing/distance/time problem then best you don't fly a jet airliiner..
I really liked Chuck's opinion (or whoever he is now, lol) that a FO should be similarly skilled to his captain. Back to the whole premise of this thread (JAA and FAA training), I find it illustrative that it is possible in JAA land to be a FO in a passenger jet with only 250 hours. That would never happen in FAA land. In fact, in a previous thread you stated that it was a reason why FAA was inferior to JAA.
Now I'm sure that a 250 hour JAA CPL can fly figure of eights around an NDB for hours with far more precision than a 250 hour FAA CPL (I've see the JAA boys training in PHX do it in the sim I am so very impressed). I'm less impressed when I get on a 737 in JAA land and consider the possibility that if the captain makes a bad/borderline decision our 250 hour FO doesn't have the experience to know this is a bad decision, and so use his (probably excellent on paper) CRM skills to do something about it.
But during that thread you were obviously saying that the system should be set up for the professional pilots, it was good because you could be a professional pilot with 250 hours. It's only going to be a matter of time before a plane goes down and the accident report says 'probable cause, inexperience of FO'. You obviously don't care much about the consumer being able to choose how he spends his time and money, but I'd have though you would care more about your passengers! Your FO in an FAA jet may be less precise in his ADF skills, but who cares, he will be competant. The system here is set up to provide him with the vast experience he needs before becoming FO in a jet with 150 people behind him. You have to face the facts, it's better in FAA land, and you should not be stopping people from coming here to train at facilities over here and experience all this. If JAA/Europe was set up like FAA/USA then maybe our low time pilot would be able to be gain some good experience prior to his first real job, but it isn't, so he cannot.
Cheers
Last edited by slim_slag; 5th Apr 2002 at 11:06.
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It's only going to be a matter of time before a plane goes down and the accident report says 'probable cause, inexperience of FO'
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