The end of JAA PPL's in the U.S. A ???
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EnglishAl
I find it interesting that when something really really nasty happens (not an engine failure, though bad management of that has caused fatalities) on a two pilot plane, and the plane is lost. You get all these really experienced and old guys coming out and saying 'if only we had the FE still, we need three guys on the flight deck to handle real emergencies'. Now we can have one experienced guy and one person just out of nappies. Undoubtably the green JAA FO is a precision pilot, but sometimes it takes a lot more than that.
Hey Rowley. Before you can be moderator you have to have something interesting and useful to say. So as you haven;t done so yet how about starting now
At least www posts valuable stuff and doesn't appear to want to censor posts, which I assume would be your method. www just knows jack about the US and wants to tell us how to spend our money
WWW, if you want to do a great fly drive in the US then fly to LAX, rent a convertable mustang (red if possible) and on the first night drive like mad all the way to north California and Shasta. Spend the next week or two driving back down the Pacific Coast Highway to LA. Beats anything that Florida can offer, in my opinion.
I find it interesting that when something really really nasty happens (not an engine failure, though bad management of that has caused fatalities) on a two pilot plane, and the plane is lost. You get all these really experienced and old guys coming out and saying 'if only we had the FE still, we need three guys on the flight deck to handle real emergencies'. Now we can have one experienced guy and one person just out of nappies. Undoubtably the green JAA FO is a precision pilot, but sometimes it takes a lot more than that.
Hey Rowley. Before you can be moderator you have to have something interesting and useful to say. So as you haven;t done so yet how about starting now
At least www posts valuable stuff and doesn't appear to want to censor posts, which I assume would be your method. www just knows jack about the US and wants to tell us how to spend our money
WWW, if you want to do a great fly drive in the US then fly to LAX, rent a convertable mustang (red if possible) and on the first night drive like mad all the way to north California and Shasta. Spend the next week or two driving back down the Pacific Coast Highway to LA. Beats anything that Florida can offer, in my opinion.
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My dear weasly friend:
Please, please, stop being condesending, professional pilots with even a glimmer of experience do not mention they have done half a dozen ADF approaches in any given time frame no more than they would describe the intricaties of how they tie their shoe laces in the morning.
Can't you understand that there was a time when ADF's were the only approaches pilots had as approach aids for most of their flying? Given we flew many more trips and hours per month due to the maximum hours per month not being inforced as much in that time period is it not reasonable to believe we understood the limitations of the ADF?
You should think before you post such infantile remarks as the one about failing a test ride due to not being able to fly within + or - 5 degrees. Surely someone must have told you that in the real world ADF signals can be very unreliable due to many factors and 5 degree averaging is not possible.
Now here are two questions.
First: Your D.I. has failed and you are in the area of magnetic compass unreliability, to add to your problems you cannot get a star , moon or sun shot. The ADF needle is slowly revolving all over the place. Would you use the beat frequency occilator position to home in on a beacon that you know to be your destination? And what would be your method of proving 180 degree ambiguity?
Second: While flying in very low temperatures and ice crystals the ADF needle starts to go slowly all over the place.
Just using your finger on the windshield what would that it tell you may be causing the needle unreliability?
OH, by the way weasly do you let your Captain fly the odd ADF approach so he / she get a chance to practice for their check rides??
I guess I had better quit picking on poor WWW.
........................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Please, please, stop being condesending, professional pilots with even a glimmer of experience do not mention they have done half a dozen ADF approaches in any given time frame no more than they would describe the intricaties of how they tie their shoe laces in the morning.
Can't you understand that there was a time when ADF's were the only approaches pilots had as approach aids for most of their flying? Given we flew many more trips and hours per month due to the maximum hours per month not being inforced as much in that time period is it not reasonable to believe we understood the limitations of the ADF?
You should think before you post such infantile remarks as the one about failing a test ride due to not being able to fly within + or - 5 degrees. Surely someone must have told you that in the real world ADF signals can be very unreliable due to many factors and 5 degree averaging is not possible.
Now here are two questions.
First: Your D.I. has failed and you are in the area of magnetic compass unreliability, to add to your problems you cannot get a star , moon or sun shot. The ADF needle is slowly revolving all over the place. Would you use the beat frequency occilator position to home in on a beacon that you know to be your destination? And what would be your method of proving 180 degree ambiguity?
Second: While flying in very low temperatures and ice crystals the ADF needle starts to go slowly all over the place.
Just using your finger on the windshield what would that it tell you may be causing the needle unreliability?
OH, by the way weasly do you let your Captain fly the odd ADF approach so he / she get a chance to practice for their check rides??
I guess I had better quit picking on poor WWW.
........................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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From his 4th April posting, WWW seemed to be signing-off this but no such luck.
After only a few years of flying, WWW seems to have forgotten that, no matter how much you rate yourself, there are always people with more......... brains, experience, mates, money, muscles etc.
This is a common problem amongst professional pilots which is usually caused by wearing uniforms, substance abuse, weak management, too much sex (or even having thick friends and relatives!)
Anyway, back to the answer to the topic, which no-one has contradicted.
CAA approve 3 schools for JAA PPL training in USA:
Ormond Beach Avaition
Orlando Flight Training
European Flight Training
After only a few years of flying, WWW seems to have forgotten that, no matter how much you rate yourself, there are always people with more......... brains, experience, mates, money, muscles etc.
This is a common problem amongst professional pilots which is usually caused by wearing uniforms, substance abuse, weak management, too much sex (or even having thick friends and relatives!)
Anyway, back to the answer to the topic, which no-one has contradicted.
CAA approve 3 schools for JAA PPL training in USA:
Ormond Beach Avaition
Orlando Flight Training
European Flight Training
Quite correct - Ormond Beach Aviation has been added to the list of such organisations approved by the CAA.
I'm intrigued to know the answers to our esteemed PBY driver's questions; many of the techniques used way back when are still valid, but are rarely needed in modern aircraft - fortunately!
It's the weekend, it's sunny even in the UK. Some of us would to well to mellow out and listen to the words of the wise ones!
I'm intrigued to know the answers to our esteemed PBY driver's questions; many of the techniques used way back when are still valid, but are rarely needed in modern aircraft - fortunately!
It's the weekend, it's sunny even in the UK. Some of us would to well to mellow out and listen to the words of the wise ones!
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Yeh Beagle:
The world evolves, but if we had not understood all those early methods of navigation very few of us would be here to talk about them.
Somehow even though I am from the dinosaur age I managed to evolve with technology and believe it or not I even understand the Airbus laws of computer flight, ie. law normal, law alternate and even law direct.. I bet you wouldnt believe me but I can make it go where I want even in law direct.
Sooooo you see even dinosaurs can learn.
P.S.:
Do you think I could .... with luck pass an ADF flight test????
......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
The world evolves, but if we had not understood all those early methods of navigation very few of us would be here to talk about them.
Somehow even though I am from the dinosaur age I managed to evolve with technology and believe it or not I even understand the Airbus laws of computer flight, ie. law normal, law alternate and even law direct.. I bet you wouldnt believe me but I can make it go where I want even in law direct.
Sooooo you see even dinosaurs can learn.
P.S.:
Do you think I could .... with luck pass an ADF flight test????
......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
And I'll bet that you took the time and trouble to make sure that you had a thorough understanding of the Airbooooos FBW laws - whereas present day Nintendo kids with 250 hrs and bum fluff chins probably think that the gold stripes on their shirts are more important than a proper understanding of basic theory!
Exams = spot questions, then forget everything as soon as you've left the examination room. Because you'll never be examined again and you think that there'll never be a need to apply theoretical knowledge so long as you sit there in your nice white shirt, watch the autopilot fly the ac and wait for the monthly cheque to arrive.
Exams = spot questions, then forget everything as soon as you've left the examination room. Because you'll never be examined again and you think that there'll never be a need to apply theoretical knowledge so long as you sit there in your nice white shirt, watch the autopilot fly the ac and wait for the monthly cheque to arrive.
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BEagle:
Wouldnt it be refreshing for WWW to take me up on my offer to show me his expertize and settle the experience versus ego thing in an airplane that you actually have to fly?
The Airbus thing was given to me by Airbus as a thank you for the flying I did for them in the Sur Les Traces De L'Aeropostale commerative flight we did in 1998. Toulouse to Santiago.
I found their technology to be facinating and am privilaged to have been given the opportunity to have sampled their product.
And yes it requires very in depth study to truly appreciate how the thing flys.
It is not an airplane as you and I have flown, rather it is a beautilful many colored video game that allows you to fly an airplane.
.....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Wouldnt it be refreshing for WWW to take me up on my offer to show me his expertize and settle the experience versus ego thing in an airplane that you actually have to fly?
The Airbus thing was given to me by Airbus as a thank you for the flying I did for them in the Sur Les Traces De L'Aeropostale commerative flight we did in 1998. Toulouse to Santiago.
I found their technology to be facinating and am privilaged to have been given the opportunity to have sampled their product.
And yes it requires very in depth study to truly appreciate how the thing flys.
It is not an airplane as you and I have flown, rather it is a beautilful many colored video game that allows you to fly an airplane.
.....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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It's gone quiet here, we haven't lost a plane over the Bay of Biscay have we?
I'm guessing that St Elmo's fire is the cause of number two. You'd see weird glowing moving spiders web type phenomena on the window as your finger changed the local electrical field. Sort of like you get with those excutive toys with the transparent balls with discharges in them, when you touch the surface of the ball you change the pattern of discharge within the ball.
So this would give you precipitation static, which disproportionately affects radio frequencies in the ADF range. The ice would cause the build up of static by friction and also would take away some charge, leving behind a net charged airframe.
No friggen idea about number one. Do I win £5?
I'm guessing that St Elmo's fire is the cause of number two. You'd see weird glowing moving spiders web type phenomena on the window as your finger changed the local electrical field. Sort of like you get with those excutive toys with the transparent balls with discharges in them, when you touch the surface of the ball you change the pattern of discharge within the ball.
So this would give you precipitation static, which disproportionately affects radio frequencies in the ADF range. The ice would cause the build up of static by friction and also would take away some charge, leving behind a net charged airframe.
No friggen idea about number one. Do I win £5?
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Chuck,
Next time why not come over and renew your IR in the UK. It is an annual test where you will be required to track an NDB within +/- 5 deg. If you can't you fail.
If you don't believe me then here is the CAA document:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_01.PDF
To me this is a great example of why training for JAA licences should remain within JAA States. It is too hard to prevent instructors 3000+ miles away from using Chuck's tracking when the CAA's tracking is required.
The old ADF position fix using bearing, speed and time can be used in many situations. What we must not lose sight of is that much of the training we complete is just for those few minutes when things go wrong or don't work. When your GPS stops working then somewhere over the pacific, you might be glad of the ole ADF.
Some delivery pilot years ago was glad of a Air New Zealand captain who remembered the basics of celestial nav and used it to find and guide hime to safety.
I am not against people from JAA States going to the US or elsewhere to do training. I am against those people receiving JAA approved training outside the JAA States.
If every JAA State stops this approval system of US and other schools then it will not stop people going to the US to train. However those people will return with business cards saying that they are US pilots and will have to undergo a conversion course to obtain a JAA licence.
The CAA is on the fence. It says that approved US schools can teach for the JAA IR. However if you train at the same school and obtain a US IR before returning to the UK then you will have to complete a full JAA IR course before they will give you a JAA IR. Same instructor, same school, different answer.
Let those who want to train in the USA for US licences. Let those who want to train in the JAA for JAA licences. There are clear systems for validation and conversion.
DFC
Next time why not come over and renew your IR in the UK. It is an annual test where you will be required to track an NDB within +/- 5 deg. If you can't you fail.
If you don't believe me then here is the CAA document:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_01.PDF
To me this is a great example of why training for JAA licences should remain within JAA States. It is too hard to prevent instructors 3000+ miles away from using Chuck's tracking when the CAA's tracking is required.
The old ADF position fix using bearing, speed and time can be used in many situations. What we must not lose sight of is that much of the training we complete is just for those few minutes when things go wrong or don't work. When your GPS stops working then somewhere over the pacific, you might be glad of the ole ADF.
Some delivery pilot years ago was glad of a Air New Zealand captain who remembered the basics of celestial nav and used it to find and guide hime to safety.
I am not against people from JAA States going to the US or elsewhere to do training. I am against those people receiving JAA approved training outside the JAA States.
If every JAA State stops this approval system of US and other schools then it will not stop people going to the US to train. However those people will return with business cards saying that they are US pilots and will have to undergo a conversion course to obtain a JAA licence.
The CAA is on the fence. It says that approved US schools can teach for the JAA IR. However if you train at the same school and obtain a US IR before returning to the UK then you will have to complete a full JAA IR course before they will give you a JAA IR. Same instructor, same school, different answer.
Let those who want to train in the USA for US licences. Let those who want to train in the JAA for JAA licences. There are clear systems for validation and conversion.
DFC
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It is an annual test where you will be required to track an NDB within +/- 5 deg. If you can't you fail.
Not so black and white as you might suggest.
Same Document as you cited
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
Well I never, I do believe that is attributed to none other than Douglas Bader.
Cheers
Not so black and white as you might suggest.
4.1.3
Throughout the flight the aeroplane should be flown as accurately as possible. The limits for
operation are given as guidance to applicants but do not necessarily indicate that a 'failure' will
result if any boundary is exceeded.
Throughout the flight the aeroplane should be flown as accurately as possible. The limits for
operation are given as guidance to applicants but do not necessarily indicate that a 'failure' will
result if any boundary is exceeded.
"Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men"
Well I never, I do believe that is attributed to none other than Douglas Bader.
Cheers
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Hi DFC:
You by any chance related to WWW?
It is obvious by your post you lack a clear understanding of the subject. You cannot be failed on an instrument flight test for the malfunctioning of any aid to navigation.
There are many reasons that an ADF needle will give eroneous indications and a pilot must understand the limitations of the system he/she are using. The ADF is an aid for non precision approaches and a rough guide to desired track when navigating.
Only the ignorant will believe that + or - 5 degrees is a guaranteed error limitation when using the ADF.
Next time I am flying in your exclusive airspace would I have to advise airtraffic control to allow for Chuck's tracking so I don't get lost?
As to celestial navigation go to www.ebushpilot.com and under your stories you will find one called Arcturus missing hours and fate.
Read that story then come on back and tell me about celestial nav.
Oh can you answer question no. one that I asked WWW?
You have a good day now.......
.........................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
You by any chance related to WWW?
It is obvious by your post you lack a clear understanding of the subject. You cannot be failed on an instrument flight test for the malfunctioning of any aid to navigation.
There are many reasons that an ADF needle will give eroneous indications and a pilot must understand the limitations of the system he/she are using. The ADF is an aid for non precision approaches and a rough guide to desired track when navigating.
Only the ignorant will believe that + or - 5 degrees is a guaranteed error limitation when using the ADF.
Next time I am flying in your exclusive airspace would I have to advise airtraffic control to allow for Chuck's tracking so I don't get lost?
As to celestial navigation go to www.ebushpilot.com and under your stories you will find one called Arcturus missing hours and fate.
Read that story then come on back and tell me about celestial nav.
Oh can you answer question no. one that I asked WWW?
You have a good day now.......
.........................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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Slim_Slag:
Yeh, it is St Elmos fire and is a constant problem in the Arctic when flying in ice crystals or dry snow.
You can draw dirty pictures in blue fire on the windshield with your finger.
It never ceases to amaze me at the myopic understanding of aviation by some of our JAA challenged brethern.
Do these guys really believe that JAA has reinvented Aviation for the benefit of their victims?
I fly all over the world and nothing...nothing even comes close to N. America for the freedom of flight and first class service.
( Well maybe Angola could compete with N. America )
.......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :
Yeh, it is St Elmos fire and is a constant problem in the Arctic when flying in ice crystals or dry snow.
You can draw dirty pictures in blue fire on the windshield with your finger.
It never ceases to amaze me at the myopic understanding of aviation by some of our JAA challenged brethern.
Do these guys really believe that JAA has reinvented Aviation for the benefit of their victims?
I fly all over the world and nothing...nothing even comes close to N. America for the freedom of flight and first class service.
( Well maybe Angola could compete with N. America )
.......................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :
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The CAA is on the fence. It says that approved US schools can teach for the JAA IR. However if you train at the same school and obtain a US IR before returning to the UK then you will have to complete a full JAA IR course before they will give you a JAA IR. Same instructor, same school, different answer.
And another thing.....When will people start trusting GPS? I've used it for the past 7 years in my job and never once seen a problem lasting more than a minute or so...!
(Better stop now before I get started again)
Cheers
EA
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Why I don't trust GPS
I have never had a complete engine failure yet am always in practice and on the look out for one.
Luckily however, Dubalya does not have his hand on my aircraft ignition switch unlike the GPS system.
However not trusting a system is not the same as not using it.
I use GPS on a daily basis. However I will not use it without suitable back-up and cross check available from visual navigation or radio aids and I will never use it to make approaches.
DFC
I have never had a complete engine failure yet am always in practice and on the look out for one.
Luckily however, Dubalya does not have his hand on my aircraft ignition switch unlike the GPS system.
However not trusting a system is not the same as not using it.
I use GPS on a daily basis. However I will not use it without suitable back-up and cross check available from visual navigation or radio aids and I will never use it to make approaches.
DFC
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The Airbus thing was given to me by Airbus as a thank you for the flying I did for them in the Sur Les Traces De L'Aeropostale commerative flight we did in 1998. Toulouse to Santiago.
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I use GPS on a daily basis. However I will not use it without suitable back-up and cross check available from visual navigation or radio aids
FAA certified GPS receivers cross check themselves. It's called RAIM. If the GPS is deemed unreliable, which happens, it will not go into Approach Mode. This technology has been used for years and it really is a total non issue. If you get a very rare RAIM outage just hang around until you need to go to your alternate.
and I will never use it to make approaches.
As PIC that's your call of course. I'd take a GPS approach over an NDB any day, but that's my call too. I'd even take a GPS over a VOR approach. I would get into my destination while you would be off to an alternate.
As for the fact that the US military has control over GPS, that is also a non issue except we Europeans make it so. Do you really think that the US would turn off GPS? How much money would that cost US industry? It's simply not going to happen. Having said that I totally agree that the EU should put it's own system up there in space. I like competition you see.
FAA certified GPS receivers cross check themselves. It's called RAIM. If the GPS is deemed unreliable, which happens, it will not go into Approach Mode. This technology has been used for years and it really is a total non issue. If you get a very rare RAIM outage just hang around until you need to go to your alternate.
and I will never use it to make approaches.
As PIC that's your call of course. I'd take a GPS approach over an NDB any day, but that's my call too. I'd even take a GPS over a VOR approach. I would get into my destination while you would be off to an alternate.
As for the fact that the US military has control over GPS, that is also a non issue except we Europeans make it so. Do you really think that the US would turn off GPS? How much money would that cost US industry? It's simply not going to happen. Having said that I totally agree that the EU should put it's own system up there in space. I like competition you see.
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Evo7:
Yes there is a hard cover book by Patrick Baudry and Cyril LeTourneur. It has many very good pictures as well as the story.
The book is named
Un vol de L'egende Sur Les Traces de L'Aeropostale..
It of course in printed in French only but is worth buying for the pictures. The ISBN number is 2-235-02238-3.
It was a very difficult trip due to the time restrictions we were placed under in order to meet the schedule for all the places we stopped ,,, media and VIP's and all that sort of stuff.
We departed Toulouse on Oct. 14, 1998 and landed Santiago on Oct. 29, 1998.
Cat Driver:
Yes there is a hard cover book by Patrick Baudry and Cyril LeTourneur. It has many very good pictures as well as the story.
The book is named
Un vol de L'egende Sur Les Traces de L'Aeropostale..
It of course in printed in French only but is worth buying for the pictures. The ISBN number is 2-235-02238-3.
It was a very difficult trip due to the time restrictions we were placed under in order to meet the schedule for all the places we stopped ,,, media and VIP's and all that sort of stuff.
We departed Toulouse on Oct. 14, 1998 and landed Santiago on Oct. 29, 1998.
Cat Driver:
The use of ADF in the UK has, regrettably, turned into a ridiculous art form at certain schools. Particularly old wives' tales about how to fly an NDB hold.
Chaps - it's a system prone to errors and is a NON-PRECISION device! Precisely as Chuck states.
When I examine pilots on IRs flying an NDB approach, I expect them to descend on the procedure only when they're in the 10 degree sector and to manoeuvre the aircraft safely to remain within that sector. If the needle starts twitching and oscillating, I do not expect them to chase it all over the sky, but to mean out the needle's wanders and to fly a steady approach. I've been told of other countries where a 'twin NDB' approach is flown - there are 2 beacons - one very close to the aerodrome and one about 8 miles out - both of which are on the approach course. You line them up so that your ADF needles are on top of eachother and hold them that way until you fly over the first beacon, then if you wander off course the needles will form a shallow arrowhead - you ease away from the pointy bit to bring them back into line. Apparently it's dead easy and you never have to remember what the QDM is - you just keep the needles in line. When the second needle topples, if you have landing criteria you land, if you don't, you go around!
Regarding GPS - if it's RAIM enabled and IFR certified, no problem with a GPS non-precision approach. Even the p-code GPS aided FMS in the ac I fly isn't approach certificated, but it's dead handy to have the inbound course from the FMS set on the HSI whilst flying a TACAN or NDB approach on the RMIs ( we can't display TACAN radials on the HSI) or to have the runway centreline set if on an SRA. However, VFR only GPS can only ever be a useful back up to other navaids or a map!
Chaps - it's a system prone to errors and is a NON-PRECISION device! Precisely as Chuck states.
When I examine pilots on IRs flying an NDB approach, I expect them to descend on the procedure only when they're in the 10 degree sector and to manoeuvre the aircraft safely to remain within that sector. If the needle starts twitching and oscillating, I do not expect them to chase it all over the sky, but to mean out the needle's wanders and to fly a steady approach. I've been told of other countries where a 'twin NDB' approach is flown - there are 2 beacons - one very close to the aerodrome and one about 8 miles out - both of which are on the approach course. You line them up so that your ADF needles are on top of eachother and hold them that way until you fly over the first beacon, then if you wander off course the needles will form a shallow arrowhead - you ease away from the pointy bit to bring them back into line. Apparently it's dead easy and you never have to remember what the QDM is - you just keep the needles in line. When the second needle topples, if you have landing criteria you land, if you don't, you go around!
Regarding GPS - if it's RAIM enabled and IFR certified, no problem with a GPS non-precision approach. Even the p-code GPS aided FMS in the ac I fly isn't approach certificated, but it's dead handy to have the inbound course from the FMS set on the HSI whilst flying a TACAN or NDB approach on the RMIs ( we can't display TACAN radials on the HSI) or to have the runway centreline set if on an SRA. However, VFR only GPS can only ever be a useful back up to other navaids or a map!