Job prospects after modular ATPL (UK)? Loan or secure a job?
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1) Uni or no Uni? Now of course going to Uni is a great way to get better earning potential and also acts as a "Plan B", but I just can't see myself spending approx. 3 years doing a course which isn't my end goal career, only to end up with a mountain of debt and somewhat questionable job prospects.
Totally up to you. Best three years of your life if it’s right for you. I don’t buy into the Plan B rubbish. You want to be a pilot, go be a pilot. A degree doesn’t help much without experience anyway so a true Plan B needs another 5 years in industry, you’re looking at a decade all in to have a really solid plan B. Or you could just become a pilot… If that doesn’t work then go and get a different job.
It’s like leaving school with the dream of becoming a police officer but first spending five years getting all of your accounting qualifications ‘just in case’, makes no sense.
2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?
No. But why would you get a 22-25K job? Plenty of jobs that’ll pay better than that you can walk into, they may just be pretty savage. You may need to work extra hours, but 60 hours a week when you’re young and massively motivated is very doable. If you’re doing less than that question your motivation. As has been endlessly said on here, you can borrow a good chunk of the cash once you get some credit behind you. Start grossing £35K a year, bank £20K a year. Two years of that, couple of loans and you’re there.
3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?
It’s a loan, you’d have to pay it off. Same with a mortgage if you lose your job. Them’s the breaks.
4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.
Airlines don’t care where you got the piece of paper from. Case in point, BA is currently open for Modular students who have trained at up to 3 ATOs
5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?
If you do reasonably well in training, and have at least some degree of aptitude you’re fine. It’s Europe, the system is geared up for entry to the RHS of a 737/320. You’ve got EU right to work as well. That puts you about most UK licence holders. Worst case, you can just throw £30K at Ryanair for a type rating and work for them. When a job’s that close that is a no brainer for the debt equation.
6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)
Massively increases your employability. Do them in parallel, schools are geared up for it. If you go back and do it later you’ll be relearning question banks.
7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?
Yes, can only speak for the UK but TUI have already recruited this year for a funded scheme, which hopefully you applied for. BA open this year, again you’ll presumably be applying for that!
8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?
Pretty easy to be honest. Groundschool goes no harder than C grade GCSE maths. The workload is very high, the content is simple. Commercial flying is designed to be as easy as it can be as it makes it safer. You’re not joining the Red Arrows.
9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?
Maybe a week of mucking about at head office learning how to wear ear defenders but generally if you’re new to type it’s a six week type rating then maybe another 4- 6weeks of line training. Then you’re signed off to go and see the world*
*World being a euphemism for the crew car park at 3am and various European airport coffee shops of varying quality.
10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?
fATPL isn’t a thing, it’s just a handy name for the collection of bits of paper you get at the end. ATPL theory, ME CPL/IR for the ‘fATPL’. Then you add in an APS MCC with a sprinkling of UPRT and you’re good to go. Unlike the US where people really do take all sorts of routes, it’s a given here that you want to fly a jet so the schools are all structured around the fATPL, you’d have to actively go against the grain to not end up with that at the end.
Totally up to you. Best three years of your life if it’s right for you. I don’t buy into the Plan B rubbish. You want to be a pilot, go be a pilot. A degree doesn’t help much without experience anyway so a true Plan B needs another 5 years in industry, you’re looking at a decade all in to have a really solid plan B. Or you could just become a pilot… If that doesn’t work then go and get a different job.
It’s like leaving school with the dream of becoming a police officer but first spending five years getting all of your accounting qualifications ‘just in case’, makes no sense.
2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?
No. But why would you get a 22-25K job? Plenty of jobs that’ll pay better than that you can walk into, they may just be pretty savage. You may need to work extra hours, but 60 hours a week when you’re young and massively motivated is very doable. If you’re doing less than that question your motivation. As has been endlessly said on here, you can borrow a good chunk of the cash once you get some credit behind you. Start grossing £35K a year, bank £20K a year. Two years of that, couple of loans and you’re there.
3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?
It’s a loan, you’d have to pay it off. Same with a mortgage if you lose your job. Them’s the breaks.
4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.
Airlines don’t care where you got the piece of paper from. Case in point, BA is currently open for Modular students who have trained at up to 3 ATOs
5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?
If you do reasonably well in training, and have at least some degree of aptitude you’re fine. It’s Europe, the system is geared up for entry to the RHS of a 737/320. You’ve got EU right to work as well. That puts you about most UK licence holders. Worst case, you can just throw £30K at Ryanair for a type rating and work for them. When a job’s that close that is a no brainer for the debt equation.
6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)
Massively increases your employability. Do them in parallel, schools are geared up for it. If you go back and do it later you’ll be relearning question banks.
7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?
Yes, can only speak for the UK but TUI have already recruited this year for a funded scheme, which hopefully you applied for. BA open this year, again you’ll presumably be applying for that!
8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?
Pretty easy to be honest. Groundschool goes no harder than C grade GCSE maths. The workload is very high, the content is simple. Commercial flying is designed to be as easy as it can be as it makes it safer. You’re not joining the Red Arrows.
9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?
Maybe a week of mucking about at head office learning how to wear ear defenders but generally if you’re new to type it’s a six week type rating then maybe another 4- 6weeks of line training. Then you’re signed off to go and see the world*
*World being a euphemism for the crew car park at 3am and various European airport coffee shops of varying quality.
10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?
fATPL isn’t a thing, it’s just a handy name for the collection of bits of paper you get at the end. ATPL theory, ME CPL/IR for the ‘fATPL’. Then you add in an APS MCC with a sprinkling of UPRT and you’re good to go. Unlike the US where people really do take all sorts of routes, it’s a given here that you want to fly a jet so the schools are all structured around the fATPL, you’d have to actively go against the grain to not end up with that at the end.
Hello everyone,
Having read a good few threads in the "wannabes" forum, none of them quite matched my situation so I decided to make my own thread.
[Insert here, the usual paragraph about how becoming a pilot has always been my dream, passion, etc, etc. It's all been said before]
So, I've decided to consult the unquestionable hivemind that is PPRuNe on how to proceed with life and the choices I should make, as I'm sure all sane people do. A bit about me first, currently 18, awaiting A-Level results, London based, living with parents, so in short expenses are... non-existent. Flight school is of course, expensive, but not completely unachievable, from the research I've done the most logical path to take is to get a job (preferably aviation focussed from what I've heard) save a decent chunk of cash, build up a credit history, get a loan for the rest, go modular because integrated is the spawn of Satan and live laugh love my way into the RHS of an airliner, but life isn't that simple is it? To make this easier for everyone I'll split this into a few primary questions:
1) Uni or no Uni? Now of course going to Uni is a great way to get better earning potential and also acts as a "Plan B", but I just can't see myself spending approx. 3 years doing a course which isn't my end goal career, only to end up with a mountain of debt and somewhat questionable job prospects.
2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?
3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?
4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.
5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?
6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)
7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?
8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?
9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?
10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?
Phew... that's a lot more than I expected to write and probably a lot more than anyone is willing to answer, so regardless of if you answer one, all, or none at all, any advice is welcome. Thanks in advance.
Having read a good few threads in the "wannabes" forum, none of them quite matched my situation so I decided to make my own thread.
[Insert here, the usual paragraph about how becoming a pilot has always been my dream, passion, etc, etc. It's all been said before]
So, I've decided to consult the unquestionable hivemind that is PPRuNe on how to proceed with life and the choices I should make, as I'm sure all sane people do. A bit about me first, currently 18, awaiting A-Level results, London based, living with parents, so in short expenses are... non-existent. Flight school is of course, expensive, but not completely unachievable, from the research I've done the most logical path to take is to get a job (preferably aviation focussed from what I've heard) save a decent chunk of cash, build up a credit history, get a loan for the rest, go modular because integrated is the spawn of Satan and live laugh love my way into the RHS of an airliner, but life isn't that simple is it? To make this easier for everyone I'll split this into a few primary questions:
1) Uni or no Uni? Now of course going to Uni is a great way to get better earning potential and also acts as a "Plan B", but I just can't see myself spending approx. 3 years doing a course which isn't my end goal career, only to end up with a mountain of debt and somewhat questionable job prospects.
2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?
3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?
4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.
5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?
6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)
7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?
8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?
9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?
10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?
Phew... that's a lot more than I expected to write and probably a lot more than anyone is willing to answer, so regardless of if you answer one, all, or none at all, any advice is welcome. Thanks in advance.
2) A plan is only as realistic as your ability to stick to it. which is why short and sharp is better. If you're going to give up 2 years of your life to be a worker bee then commit to it. 2 years should be the maximum. Work evenings and 7 days a week if you need to. The temptation will be there to spread it out over just a few more years. Your friends aren't coming with you on this journey, sorry.
3) Loans are not necessary. But how many people do you know who rented for 25 years then bought a house in cash? Debts is a fact of modern life and is useful.
If you only ever eat, sleep and work 2-3 jobs, taking home 2k a month while living at home with zero expenses - what makes you think you can't afford a bit of debt? Those 2 years will be the foundation of the rest of your life. Your work ethic will be through the roof and everything will seem easy.
Think of it this way: You have to save money before you can spend it. Borrowed money can be spent immediately. Let's say you need 60k and you can save 15k per year. You save for 4 years then you can spend it. If you borrow the money and pay it off over 4 years you can spend it NOW. Yes you'll spend a bit in interest - but the time saved is a thousand times more valuable:
If your goal is to get into an airline job then every year you wait costs you £200,000.
4) Don't believe the hype. Integrated/MPL should ONLY be done if there's a guaranteed job or near to a guaranteed job at the end of it. It is not quicker. If you are smarter you'll be held back by learning at the pace of the rest of the class. Modular means you dictate the pace, which can be faster than integrated.
5) The hardest part. Timing is everything, some people fall straight into jobs and others don't. Don't think that's just bad luck and believe all the sob stories either - someone had to be at the bottom of the class.
In Europe anyone without at least 500 hours of Jet experience is considered a cadet. It's the entry level, and it's based on training costs. The most desirable pilot will be type rated and experienced. My last job gave me 3 sims and 10 sectors of line training which took a few weeks. A cadet will have to do 6-8 weeks of groundschool and 14 Sim sessions, wait 3-4 weeks for their licence then do 40-80 line training sectors. It's much more expensive and a much bigger training burden. Some airlines like RYR have a business model based on Cadets. Others will only take small numbers out when market conditions force them to. Being that first job is half luck and half guile. Plenty of people have back-doored themselves into the cockpit by starting in a ground role at an airline. The HR people get a hard-on for those zero to hero stories that go into the company newsletter. Its the long game but it works. Now who do you know who needs a regular job for a few years? Yes you, you sneaky bastard.
6) Some things are so obvious it's ridiculous. Like people with US passports who say "should I train in Europe or the US?" You get the licence which offers the most prospects. For you that's Europe. So get both.
7) Yes. Find them, apply, get rejected, move on.
8) Easy. If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. Maths is GCSE level. For the exams you'll need to understand angles and ratios (1:60 etc), sin/cos/tan for navigation working out lat/long etc, time zones. Nothing that can't be learned or relearned. Why would you talk about drop out rates? Don't you want to do it?
9) Not exactly something you need to worry about is it? You just go with the flow. They send you to ground school for the type they want you to fly then you do the sim training and the test. You do all the ground courses you need like CRM, Dangerous goods, wet drills in the pool, safety equipment, firefighting etc... and then you start flying your line training...
10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.
The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?
90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.
For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.
Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.
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For all in the thread, I've just found out about an event called Pilot Careers Live which is essentially a big conference/open day/careers convention for flight schools to advertise, answer questions, bit of networking etc. There's meant to be ones this year in Frankfurt, Dublin and London if anyone is interested 
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This is a golden nugget of advice! I'm saving the below in my budget notes. I'm about to embark on the mod route, class 1 medical booked before I start though.
1)
10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.
The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?
90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.
For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.
Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.
10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.
The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?
90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.
For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.
Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.
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1) Personally No. Simply because your backup plan would cost the same if not more than your primary. The number one reason for going to Uni should be because you want to. Plenty of places will offer a degree to piggy back on your ATPL later on.
2) A plan is only as realistic as your ability to stick to it. which is why short and sharp is better. If you're going to give up 2 years of your life to be a worker bee then commit to it. 2 years should be the maximum. Work evenings and 7 days a week if you need to. The temptation will be there to spread it out over just a few more years. Your friends aren't coming with you on this journey, sorry.
3) Loans are not necessary. But how many people do you know who rented for 25 years then bought a house in cash? Debts is a fact of modern life and is useful.
If you only ever eat, sleep and work 2-3 jobs, taking home 2k a month while living at home with zero expenses - what makes you think you can't afford a bit of debt? Those 2 years will be the foundation of the rest of your life. Your work ethic will be through the roof and everything will seem easy.
Think of it this way: You have to save money before you can spend it. Borrowed money can be spent immediately. Let's say you need 60k and you can save 15k per year. You save for 4 years then you can spend it. If you borrow the money and pay it off over 4 years you can spend it NOW. Yes you'll spend a bit in interest - but the time saved is a thousand times more valuable:
If your goal is to get into an airline job then every year you wait costs you £200,000.
4) Don't believe the hype. Integrated/MPL should ONLY be done if there's a guaranteed job or near to a guaranteed job at the end of it. It is not quicker. If you are smarter you'll be held back by learning at the pace of the rest of the class. Modular means you dictate the pace, which can be faster than integrated.
5) The hardest part. Timing is everything, some people fall straight into jobs and others don't. Don't think that's just bad luck and believe all the sob stories either - someone had to be at the bottom of the class.
In Europe anyone without at least 500 hours of Jet experience is considered a cadet. It's the entry level, and it's based on training costs. The most desirable pilot will be type rated and experienced. My last job gave me 3 sims and 10 sectors of line training which took a few weeks. A cadet will have to do 6-8 weeks of groundschool and 14 Sim sessions, wait 3-4 weeks for their licence then do 40-80 line training sectors. It's much more expensive and a much bigger training burden. Some airlines like RYR have a business model based on Cadets. Others will only take small numbers out when market conditions force them to. Being that first job is half luck and half guile. Plenty of people have back-doored themselves into the cockpit by starting in a ground role at an airline. The HR people get a hard-on for those zero to hero stories that go into the company newsletter. Its the long game but it works. Now who do you know who needs a regular job for a few years? Yes you, you sneaky bastard.
6) Some things are so obvious it's ridiculous. Like people with US passports who say "should I train in Europe or the US?" You get the licence which offers the most prospects. For you that's Europe. So get both.
7) Yes. Find them, apply, get rejected, move on.
8) Easy. If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. Maths is GCSE level. For the exams you'll need to understand angles and ratios (1:60 etc), sin/cos/tan for navigation working out lat/long etc, time zones. Nothing that can't be learned or relearned. Why would you talk about drop out rates? Don't you want to do it?
9) Not exactly something you need to worry about is it? You just go with the flow. They send you to ground school for the type they want you to fly then you do the sim training and the test. You do all the ground courses you need like CRM, Dangerous goods, wet drills in the pool, safety equipment, firefighting etc... and then you start flying your line training...
10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.
The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?
90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.
For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.
Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.
2) A plan is only as realistic as your ability to stick to it. which is why short and sharp is better. If you're going to give up 2 years of your life to be a worker bee then commit to it. 2 years should be the maximum. Work evenings and 7 days a week if you need to. The temptation will be there to spread it out over just a few more years. Your friends aren't coming with you on this journey, sorry.
3) Loans are not necessary. But how many people do you know who rented for 25 years then bought a house in cash? Debts is a fact of modern life and is useful.
If you only ever eat, sleep and work 2-3 jobs, taking home 2k a month while living at home with zero expenses - what makes you think you can't afford a bit of debt? Those 2 years will be the foundation of the rest of your life. Your work ethic will be through the roof and everything will seem easy.
Think of it this way: You have to save money before you can spend it. Borrowed money can be spent immediately. Let's say you need 60k and you can save 15k per year. You save for 4 years then you can spend it. If you borrow the money and pay it off over 4 years you can spend it NOW. Yes you'll spend a bit in interest - but the time saved is a thousand times more valuable:
If your goal is to get into an airline job then every year you wait costs you £200,000.
4) Don't believe the hype. Integrated/MPL should ONLY be done if there's a guaranteed job or near to a guaranteed job at the end of it. It is not quicker. If you are smarter you'll be held back by learning at the pace of the rest of the class. Modular means you dictate the pace, which can be faster than integrated.
5) The hardest part. Timing is everything, some people fall straight into jobs and others don't. Don't think that's just bad luck and believe all the sob stories either - someone had to be at the bottom of the class.
In Europe anyone without at least 500 hours of Jet experience is considered a cadet. It's the entry level, and it's based on training costs. The most desirable pilot will be type rated and experienced. My last job gave me 3 sims and 10 sectors of line training which took a few weeks. A cadet will have to do 6-8 weeks of groundschool and 14 Sim sessions, wait 3-4 weeks for their licence then do 40-80 line training sectors. It's much more expensive and a much bigger training burden. Some airlines like RYR have a business model based on Cadets. Others will only take small numbers out when market conditions force them to. Being that first job is half luck and half guile. Plenty of people have back-doored themselves into the cockpit by starting in a ground role at an airline. The HR people get a hard-on for those zero to hero stories that go into the company newsletter. Its the long game but it works. Now who do you know who needs a regular job for a few years? Yes you, you sneaky bastard.
6) Some things are so obvious it's ridiculous. Like people with US passports who say "should I train in Europe or the US?" You get the licence which offers the most prospects. For you that's Europe. So get both.
7) Yes. Find them, apply, get rejected, move on.
8) Easy. If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. Maths is GCSE level. For the exams you'll need to understand angles and ratios (1:60 etc), sin/cos/tan for navigation working out lat/long etc, time zones. Nothing that can't be learned or relearned. Why would you talk about drop out rates? Don't you want to do it?
9) Not exactly something you need to worry about is it? You just go with the flow. They send you to ground school for the type they want you to fly then you do the sim training and the test. You do all the ground courses you need like CRM, Dangerous goods, wet drills in the pool, safety equipment, firefighting etc... and then you start flying your line training...
10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.
The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?
90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.
For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.
Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.
When attaining your flight crew licence post Brexit, the discussion of do I want a UK CAA or a Dual UK CAA & EASA licence is an important one.Leading Edge Aviation are approved with both the UK CAA & EASA to deliver Flight Training and can offer you either the chance to attain a UK CAA licence, or the chance to maximise your employment opportunities and hold both.
EDIT: Apparently the dual ATPL is only available to their integrated students. Bummer.
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I am a modular student at doing dual licensing. A fair few of us doing modular courses although most are doing this alongside a university course which is just as expensive as integrated. I did my PPL at Stapleford in 2020 and they managed to get me flying x3 a week and had it completed by the end of the summer although not sure how this is now compared to the pandemic availability of instructors and aircraft which allowed me to do this so quickly, but would recommend. My instructor went above and beyond for my training needs. I am of to Spain next month after final exams for the hour building phase with LE. As has been said before make sure you visit the ATOs and try and get as much information from students there as they don’t put on there brochures about the delays in training etc. I spent two years before making the commitment post PPL and I still ended up with unexpected surprises with the route I have chosen.
Last edited by SamPope5; 27th Oct 2023 at 19:13.
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I am a modular student at LE doing dual licensing. A fair few of us doing modular courses although most are doing this alongside a university course which is just as expensive as integrated. I did my PPL at Stapleford in 2020 and they managed to get me flying x3 a week and had it completed by the end of the summer although not sure how this is now compared to the pandemic availability of instructors and aircraft which allowed me to do this so quickly, but would recommend. My instructor went above and beyond for my training needs. I am of to Spain next month after final exams for the hour building phase with LE. As has been said before make sure you visit the ATOs and try and get as much information from students there as they don’t put on there brochures about the delays in training etc. I spent two years before making the commitment post PPL and I still ended up with unexpected surprises with the route I have chosen.
With regards to ATOs etc. I've managed to convince my mum to drag me along to the pilot careers live open day I mentioned earlier which is in October and there are a large number of ATOs exhibiting there (including LE) and various seminars etc. Hopefully I will get some answers to some of my questions.
Do you regret doing your PPL in the UK vs US? Do you think it worked out cheaper than the alternative would have been?
Thanks in advance
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“ if you think you can do something or you think you can’t you’re right.”
Get your positive head on.
1000s have been waiting for this it’s open to everyone minimal education requirements no age. BA have cast their net far and wide.
The successful applicants will have put their ducks in a row knowing this opportunity had to come and will apply in the first week of it opening. Career wise they’ll never look back.
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Best quote for the flying game
“ if you think you can do something or you think you can’t you’re right.”
Get your positive head on.
1000s have been waiting for this it’s open to everyone minimal education requirements no age. BA have cast their net far and wide.
The successful applicants will have put their ducks in a row knowing this opportunity had to come and will apply in the first week of it opening. Career wise they’ll never look back.
“ if you think you can do something or you think you can’t you’re right.”
Get your positive head on.
1000s have been waiting for this it’s open to everyone minimal education requirements no age. BA have cast their net far and wide.
The successful applicants will have put their ducks in a row knowing this opportunity had to come and will apply in the first week of it opening. Career wise they’ll never look back.
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how much extra did the dual licence cost you? I think that anything up to 10 grand probably puts it into the 'worth it' category
Finally, I cannot emphasise enough the importance of properly researching your ATO. Do NOT pay more than a few thousand up front. Look at the Companies House records. There are some very financially precarious operators out there and already this year many pilots have lost tens of thousands when ATOs have gone bust. Slick advertising does not mean financial security. *Pay as you fly*
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[QUOTE=sudden twang;11471947]Not sure why you're rolling your eyes, I've seen more than a few comments from people in their 50s & 60s asking if they'd be eligible.. so perhaps it's them you're rolling your eyes at?
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1) Uni or no Uni? Now of course going to Uni is a great way to get better earning potential and also acts as a "Plan B", but I just can't see myself spending approx. 3 years doing a course which isn't my end goal career, only to end up with a mountain of debt and somewhat questionable job prospects.
Totally up to you. Best three years of your life if it’s right for you. I don’t buy into the Plan B rubbish. You want to be a pilot, go be a pilot. A degree doesn’t help much without experience anyway so a true Plan B needs another 5 years in industry, you’re looking at a decade all in to have a really solid plan B. Or you could just become a pilot… If that doesn’t work then go and get a different job.
It’s like leaving school with the dream of becoming a police officer but first spending five years getting all of your accounting qualifications ‘just in case’, makes no sense.
2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?
No. But why would you get a 22-25K job? Plenty of jobs that’ll pay better than that you can walk into, they may just be pretty savage. You may need to work extra hours, but 60 hours a week when you’re young and massively motivated is very doable. If you’re doing less than that question your motivation. As has been endlessly said on here, you can borrow a good chunk of the cash once you get some credit behind you. Start grossing £35K a year, bank £20K a year. Two years of that, couple of loans and you’re there.
3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?
It’s a loan, you’d have to pay it off. Same with a mortgage if you lose your job. Them’s the breaks.
4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.
Airlines don’t care where you got the piece of paper from. Case in point, BA is currently open for Modular students who have trained at up to 3 ATOs
5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?
If you do reasonably well in training, and have at least some degree of aptitude you’re fine. It’s Europe, the system is geared up for entry to the RHS of a 737/320. You’ve got EU right to work as well. That puts you about most UK licence holders. Worst case, you can just throw £30K at Ryanair for a type rating and work for them. When a job’s that close that is a no brainer for the debt equation.
6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)
Massively increases your employability. Do them in parallel, schools are geared up for it. If you go back and do it later you’ll be relearning question banks.
7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?
Yes, can only speak for the UK but TUI have already recruited this year for a funded scheme, which hopefully you applied for. BA open this year, again you’ll presumably be applying for that!
8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?
Pretty easy to be honest. Groundschool goes no harder than C grade GCSE maths. The workload is very high, the content is simple. Commercial flying is designed to be as easy as it can be as it makes it safer. You’re not joining the Red Arrows.
9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?
Maybe a week of mucking about at head office learning how to wear ear defenders but generally if you’re new to type it’s a six week type rating then maybe another 4- 6weeks of line training. Then you’re signed off to go and see the world*
*World being a euphemism for the crew car park at 3am and various European airport coffee shops of varying quality.
10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?
fATPL isn’t a thing, it’s just a handy name for the collection of bits of paper you get at the end. ATPL theory, ME CPL/IR for the ‘fATPL’. Then you add in an APS MCC with a sprinkling of UPRT and you’re good to go. Unlike the US where people really do take all sorts of routes, it’s a given here that you want to fly a jet so the schools are all structured around the fATPL, you’d have to actively go against the grain to not end up with that at the end.
Totally up to you. Best three years of your life if it’s right for you. I don’t buy into the Plan B rubbish. You want to be a pilot, go be a pilot. A degree doesn’t help much without experience anyway so a true Plan B needs another 5 years in industry, you’re looking at a decade all in to have a really solid plan B. Or you could just become a pilot… If that doesn’t work then go and get a different job.
It’s like leaving school with the dream of becoming a police officer but first spending five years getting all of your accounting qualifications ‘just in case’, makes no sense.
2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?
No. But why would you get a 22-25K job? Plenty of jobs that’ll pay better than that you can walk into, they may just be pretty savage. You may need to work extra hours, but 60 hours a week when you’re young and massively motivated is very doable. If you’re doing less than that question your motivation. As has been endlessly said on here, you can borrow a good chunk of the cash once you get some credit behind you. Start grossing £35K a year, bank £20K a year. Two years of that, couple of loans and you’re there.
3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?
It’s a loan, you’d have to pay it off. Same with a mortgage if you lose your job. Them’s the breaks.
4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.
Airlines don’t care where you got the piece of paper from. Case in point, BA is currently open for Modular students who have trained at up to 3 ATOs
5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?
If you do reasonably well in training, and have at least some degree of aptitude you’re fine. It’s Europe, the system is geared up for entry to the RHS of a 737/320. You’ve got EU right to work as well. That puts you about most UK licence holders. Worst case, you can just throw £30K at Ryanair for a type rating and work for them. When a job’s that close that is a no brainer for the debt equation.
6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)
Massively increases your employability. Do them in parallel, schools are geared up for it. If you go back and do it later you’ll be relearning question banks.
7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?
Yes, can only speak for the UK but TUI have already recruited this year for a funded scheme, which hopefully you applied for. BA open this year, again you’ll presumably be applying for that!
8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?
Pretty easy to be honest. Groundschool goes no harder than C grade GCSE maths. The workload is very high, the content is simple. Commercial flying is designed to be as easy as it can be as it makes it safer. You’re not joining the Red Arrows.
9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?
Maybe a week of mucking about at head office learning how to wear ear defenders but generally if you’re new to type it’s a six week type rating then maybe another 4- 6weeks of line training. Then you’re signed off to go and see the world*
*World being a euphemism for the crew car park at 3am and various European airport coffee shops of varying quality.
10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?
fATPL isn’t a thing, it’s just a handy name for the collection of bits of paper you get at the end. ATPL theory, ME CPL/IR for the ‘fATPL’. Then you add in an APS MCC with a sprinkling of UPRT and you’re good to go. Unlike the US where people really do take all sorts of routes, it’s a given here that you want to fly a jet so the schools are all structured around the fATPL, you’d have to actively go against the grain to not end up with that at the end.
1) Personally No. Simply because your backup plan would cost the same if not more than your primary. The number one reason for going to Uni should be because you want to. Plenty of places will offer a degree to piggy back on your ATPL later on.
2) A plan is only as realistic as your ability to stick to it. which is why short and sharp is better. If you're going to give up 2 years of your life to be a worker bee then commit to it. 2 years should be the maximum. Work evenings and 7 days a week if you need to. The temptation will be there to spread it out over just a few more years. Your friends aren't coming with you on this journey, sorry.
3) Loans are not necessary. But how many people do you know who rented for 25 years then bought a house in cash? Debts is a fact of modern life and is useful.
If you only ever eat, sleep and work 2-3 jobs, taking home 2k a month while living at home with zero expenses - what makes you think you can't afford a bit of debt? Those 2 years will be the foundation of the rest of your life. Your work ethic will be through the roof and everything will seem easy.
Think of it this way: You have to save money before you can spend it. Borrowed money can be spent immediately. Let's say you need 60k and you can save 15k per year. You save for 4 years then you can spend it. If you borrow the money and pay it off over 4 years you can spend it NOW. Yes you'll spend a bit in interest - but the time saved is a thousand times more valuable:
If your goal is to get into an airline job then every year you wait costs you £200,000.
4) Don't believe the hype. Integrated/MPL should ONLY be done if there's a guaranteed job or near to a guaranteed job at the end of it. It is not quicker. If you are smarter you'll be held back by learning at the pace of the rest of the class. Modular means you dictate the pace, which can be faster than integrated.
5) The hardest part. Timing is everything, some people fall straight into jobs and others don't. Don't think that's just bad luck and believe all the sob stories either - someone had to be at the bottom of the class.
In Europe anyone without at least 500 hours of Jet experience is considered a cadet. It's the entry level, and it's based on training costs. The most desirable pilot will be type rated and experienced. My last job gave me 3 sims and 10 sectors of line training which took a few weeks. A cadet will have to do 6-8 weeks of groundschool and 14 Sim sessions, wait 3-4 weeks for their licence then do 40-80 line training sectors. It's much more expensive and a much bigger training burden. Some airlines like RYR have a business model based on Cadets. Others will only take small numbers out when market conditions force them to. Being that first job is half luck and half guile. Plenty of people have back-doored themselves into the cockpit by starting in a ground role at an airline. The HR people get a hard-on for those zero to hero stories that go into the company newsletter. Its the long game but it works. Now who do you know who needs a regular job for a few years? Yes you, you sneaky bastard.
6) Some things are so obvious it's ridiculous. Like people with US passports who say "should I train in Europe or the US?" You get the licence which offers the most prospects. For you that's Europe. So get both.
7) Yes. Find them, apply, get rejected, move on.
8) Easy. If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. Maths is GCSE level. For the exams you'll need to understand angles and ratios (1:60 etc), sin/cos/tan for navigation working out lat/long etc, time zones. Nothing that can't be learned or relearned. Why would you talk about drop out rates? Don't you want to do it?
9) Not exactly something you need to worry about is it? You just go with the flow. They send you to ground school for the type they want you to fly then you do the sim training and the test. You do all the ground courses you need like CRM, Dangerous goods, wet drills in the pool, safety equipment, firefighting etc... and then you start flying your line training...
10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.
The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?
90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.
For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.
Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.
2) A plan is only as realistic as your ability to stick to it. which is why short and sharp is better. If you're going to give up 2 years of your life to be a worker bee then commit to it. 2 years should be the maximum. Work evenings and 7 days a week if you need to. The temptation will be there to spread it out over just a few more years. Your friends aren't coming with you on this journey, sorry.
3) Loans are not necessary. But how many people do you know who rented for 25 years then bought a house in cash? Debts is a fact of modern life and is useful.
If you only ever eat, sleep and work 2-3 jobs, taking home 2k a month while living at home with zero expenses - what makes you think you can't afford a bit of debt? Those 2 years will be the foundation of the rest of your life. Your work ethic will be through the roof and everything will seem easy.
Think of it this way: You have to save money before you can spend it. Borrowed money can be spent immediately. Let's say you need 60k and you can save 15k per year. You save for 4 years then you can spend it. If you borrow the money and pay it off over 4 years you can spend it NOW. Yes you'll spend a bit in interest - but the time saved is a thousand times more valuable:
If your goal is to get into an airline job then every year you wait costs you £200,000.
4) Don't believe the hype. Integrated/MPL should ONLY be done if there's a guaranteed job or near to a guaranteed job at the end of it. It is not quicker. If you are smarter you'll be held back by learning at the pace of the rest of the class. Modular means you dictate the pace, which can be faster than integrated.
5) The hardest part. Timing is everything, some people fall straight into jobs and others don't. Don't think that's just bad luck and believe all the sob stories either - someone had to be at the bottom of the class.
In Europe anyone without at least 500 hours of Jet experience is considered a cadet. It's the entry level, and it's based on training costs. The most desirable pilot will be type rated and experienced. My last job gave me 3 sims and 10 sectors of line training which took a few weeks. A cadet will have to do 6-8 weeks of groundschool and 14 Sim sessions, wait 3-4 weeks for their licence then do 40-80 line training sectors. It's much more expensive and a much bigger training burden. Some airlines like RYR have a business model based on Cadets. Others will only take small numbers out when market conditions force them to. Being that first job is half luck and half guile. Plenty of people have back-doored themselves into the cockpit by starting in a ground role at an airline. The HR people get a hard-on for those zero to hero stories that go into the company newsletter. Its the long game but it works. Now who do you know who needs a regular job for a few years? Yes you, you sneaky bastard.
6) Some things are so obvious it's ridiculous. Like people with US passports who say "should I train in Europe or the US?" You get the licence which offers the most prospects. For you that's Europe. So get both.
7) Yes. Find them, apply, get rejected, move on.
8) Easy. If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. Maths is GCSE level. For the exams you'll need to understand angles and ratios (1:60 etc), sin/cos/tan for navigation working out lat/long etc, time zones. Nothing that can't be learned or relearned. Why would you talk about drop out rates? Don't you want to do it?
9) Not exactly something you need to worry about is it? You just go with the flow. They send you to ground school for the type they want you to fly then you do the sim training and the test. You do all the ground courses you need like CRM, Dangerous goods, wet drills in the pool, safety equipment, firefighting etc... and then you start flying your line training...
10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.
The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?
90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.
For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.
Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.
Still have a few nagging questions though:
1) To put it simply why does integrated...exist? In a perfect world, you would think people would go for the cheapest and most flexible option leaving integrated courses deserted, but the opposite seems to be true. Is it just the whiff of a possible advantage when applying for jobs or is there something more I'm missing?
2) In terms of dual licensing, how would this work when undertaking a modular course, two sets of exams for each stage or some kind of different arrangement?
3) Somewhat related to the second question, how would working for an EU airline work when being based in the UK? Do the likes of RYR have their EI registered aircraft based at let's say STN for EASA licensed crew?
4) For the "downwards creditable" exams part rudestuff talked about, does that essentially mean you do the ATPL exams first and then that's a "get out of jail free card" for the CPL and IR ones?
p.s - I'm not sure if I'm doing the whole quote/reply thing correctly so if it turns into a complete mess, apologies.
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[QUOTE=Angle_of_Attack;11472058]
I just thought it was a bit pedantic. There has to be an age limit for obvious reasons.
I know of someone who was a year too young for Hamble and then a year too old for Prestwick.
BA did set up the Intermediary Entry Pilot scheme which catered for those caught out.
The point I was making was that there is now opportunity for many many more people than previously and I applaud that.
Keeping to the thread the prospects for getting a job as a pilot have improved significantly for all, zero experience, modular or white tail integrated.
I know of someone who was a year too young for Hamble and then a year too old for Prestwick.
BA did set up the Intermediary Entry Pilot scheme which catered for those caught out.
The point I was making was that there is now opportunity for many many more people than previously and I applaud that.
Keeping to the thread the prospects for getting a job as a pilot have improved significantly for all, zero experience, modular or white tail integrated.
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[QUOTE=sudden twang;11472344]
I just thought it was a bit pedantic. There has to be an age limit for obvious reasons.
I know of someone who was a year too young for Hamble and then a year too old for Prestwick.
BA did set up the Intermediary Entry Pilot scheme which catered for those caught out.
The point I was making was that there is now opportunity for many many more people than previously and I applaud that.
Keeping to the thread the prospects for getting a job as a pilot have improved significantly for all, zero experience, modular or white tail integrated.
I wasn't trying to be pedantic. If you look at the comments under the BA post on FB, you'll see quite a few people in their later years (one aged 72 even!) asking if they'd be eligible.. so I thought that the clarification would be important in case any of them were to come across this post.
I completely agree with you that it's fantastic the barrier for entry will be removed for people who would make great pilots but aren't financially able to achieve their licenses on their own!
I just thought it was a bit pedantic. There has to be an age limit for obvious reasons.
I know of someone who was a year too young for Hamble and then a year too old for Prestwick.
BA did set up the Intermediary Entry Pilot scheme which catered for those caught out.
The point I was making was that there is now opportunity for many many more people than previously and I applaud that.
Keeping to the thread the prospects for getting a job as a pilot have improved significantly for all, zero experience, modular or white tail integrated.
I completely agree with you that it's fantastic the barrier for entry will be removed for people who would make great pilots but aren't financially able to achieve their licenses on their own!
All I can say is wow, didn't expect such high quality, in depth responses, thank you so much everyone.
Still have a few nagging questions though:
1) To put it simply why does integrated...exist? In a perfect world, you would think people would go for the cheapest and most flexible option leaving integrated courses deserted, but the opposite seems to be true. Is it just the whiff of a possible advantage when applying for jobs or is there something more I'm missing?
2) In terms of dual licensing, how would this work when undertaking a modular course, two sets of exams for each stage or some kind of different arrangement?
3) Somewhat related to the second question, how would working for an EU airline work when being based in the UK? Do the likes of RYR have their EI registered aircraft based at let's say STN for EASA licensed crew?
4) For the "downwards creditable" exams part rudestuff talked about, does that essentially mean you do the ATPL exams first and then that's a "get out of jail free card" for the CPL and IR ones?
p.s - I'm not sure if I'm doing the whole quote/reply thing correctly so if it turns into a complete mess, apologies.
Still have a few nagging questions though:
1) To put it simply why does integrated...exist? In a perfect world, you would think people would go for the cheapest and most flexible option leaving integrated courses deserted, but the opposite seems to be true. Is it just the whiff of a possible advantage when applying for jobs or is there something more I'm missing?
2) In terms of dual licensing, how would this work when undertaking a modular course, two sets of exams for each stage or some kind of different arrangement?
3) Somewhat related to the second question, how would working for an EU airline work when being based in the UK? Do the likes of RYR have their EI registered aircraft based at let's say STN for EASA licensed crew?
4) For the "downwards creditable" exams part rudestuff talked about, does that essentially mean you do the ATPL exams first and then that's a "get out of jail free card" for the CPL and IR ones?
p.s - I'm not sure if I'm doing the whole quote/reply thing correctly so if it turns into a complete mess, apologies.
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CaptSackJarrow,
By 'MPL' do you mean that you need to specifically train at a flight school which is tied to Easyjet (therefore you can only fly for them once you complete training)? I've looked at both CAE and L3 and while it does seem very commercial and robotic I'm sure it has its upsides. Most of the Easyjet pilots I've talked to have mentioned going to L3 on an integrated course. Thanks for your help.
By 'MPL' do you mean that you need to specifically train at a flight school which is tied to Easyjet (therefore you can only fly for them once you complete training)? I've looked at both CAE and L3 and while it does seem very commercial and robotic I'm sure it has its upsides. Most of the Easyjet pilots I've talked to have mentioned going to L3 on an integrated course. Thanks for your help.
Keep going and best of luck!
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All I can say is wow, didn't expect such high quality, in depth responses, thank you so much everyone.
Still have a few nagging questions though:
1) To put it simply why does integrated...exist? In a perfect world, you would think people would go for the cheapest and most flexible option leaving integrated courses deserted, but the opposite seems to be true. Is it just the whiff of a possible advantage when applying for jobs or is there something more I'm missing?
2) In terms of dual licensing, how would this work when undertaking a modular course, two sets of exams for each stage or some kind of different arrangement?
3) Somewhat related to the second question, how would working for an EU airline work when being based in the UK? Do the likes of RYR have their EI registered aircraft based at let's say STN for EASA licensed crew?
4) For the "downwards creditable" exams part rudestuff talked about, does that essentially mean you do the ATPL exams first and then that's a "get out of jail free card" for the CPL and IR ones?
p.s - I'm not sure if I'm doing the whole quote/reply thing correctly so if it turns into a complete mess, apologies.
Still have a few nagging questions though:
1) To put it simply why does integrated...exist? In a perfect world, you would think people would go for the cheapest and most flexible option leaving integrated courses deserted, but the opposite seems to be true. Is it just the whiff of a possible advantage when applying for jobs or is there something more I'm missing?
2) In terms of dual licensing, how would this work when undertaking a modular course, two sets of exams for each stage or some kind of different arrangement?
3) Somewhat related to the second question, how would working for an EU airline work when being based in the UK? Do the likes of RYR have their EI registered aircraft based at let's say STN for EASA licensed crew?
4) For the "downwards creditable" exams part rudestuff talked about, does that essentially mean you do the ATPL exams first and then that's a "get out of jail free card" for the CPL and IR ones?
p.s - I'm not sure if I'm doing the whole quote/reply thing correctly so if it turns into a complete mess, apologies.
Regarding no. 2, Alex replied to me above with this:
The dual licence can be obtained for the extra cost of (i) an additional EASA Class 1 medical (ii) licence issue fees from your chosen EASA State and (iii) an additional set of ATPL exam fees. Overall I would guess about £1500 to £2000. It is possible to conduct the professional elements of your training at Modular ATOs who carry dual approval - one course two ticks - and also get your CPL and IR flight tests examined by dual qualified examiners - one test two ticks. Not all modular ATOs can arrange this, some have a surcharge to, for instance, fly to Ireland and take a test there, but it can be done.
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Apologies for the late reply. Pretty much, A MPL is a training programme sponsored by an airline with a contract of employment upon completion, but to only work for them (until unfrozen ATPL). Yes, the majority EJ pilots I know were L3 / CAE however, there is still many other airlines that are not affiliated and tend to prefer modular students. As a modular student myself, net work net work and net work, its like every job, the more people who can vouch for your character the better.
Keep going and best of luck!
Keep going and best of luck!
, take care.