Job prospects after modular ATPL (UK)? Loan or secure a job?
Hello lads, I'm a year or two away from leaving secondary school here in the UK and to be honest I've become infatuated with aviation over the past few years. I would love nothing more than to spend my working hours in a cockpit as opposed to the traditional 9-5 and all the pilots I've spoken to agree wholeheartedly that it is one of the best jobs that one could possibly work. The way I see it integrated is prohibitively expensive while modular is more "grindy" and allows your experience to build up (which should be better for jobseeking right?!). A few questions:
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Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
Hello lads, I'm a year or two away from leaving secondary school here in the UK and to be honest I've become infatuated with aviation over the past few years. I would love nothing more than to spend my working hours in a cockpit as opposed to the traditional 9-5 and all the pilots I've spoken to agree wholeheartedly that it is one of the best jobs that one could possibly work. The way I see it integrated is prohibitively expensive while modular is more "grindy" and allows your experience to build up (which should be better for jobseeking right?!). A few questions:
1.) Is it worth getting a job/ going to uni before starting flight training? Absolutely. Not only will life experience look good on your future CV, you will learn more about yourself than you could ever believe. I worked for 4 years in a variety of settings after leaving sixth form, working in a fast food kitchen to operations manager at a large logistics company to setting up my own business, make the most of your time ‘before’ aviation. It also means that, whilst you’re studying down the modular route, you’re able to earn money and save it for when you need it most. In my case, I spent my weeks working and weekends hour building, whilst saving money for the stage I’m at now, full time ATPL/CPL/IR. That is assuming you wish to do it ‘full time’ modular, you can always work alongside distance learning/weekend CPL lessons! 2.) Is finding a job difficult for modular ATPL holders? No… but also yes. There are two predominant factors at play when it comes to this bit, A.) where you did your training and/or B.) how good you are at networking. Now, it’s common knowledge that recruiters like continuity of training, that is, doing your CPL and IR (perhaps even the additional bits like your ATPL’s, MCC and UPRT) with the same training provider. There are of course many exceptions to this when the market is good, as it is currently, with Ryanair, Loganair and Jet 2 all hiring friends of mine who have completed their training at 2,3 and in one case 4 different training providers. However, there are those jobs out there that are only accessible through going to the right flight school and having a good network in the industry. For example, 3 well known ATO’s have all recently sent modular cadets to easyJet, and at recent recruitment talks, British Airways will be hiring modular cadets for their Euro Flyer winter recruitment. That being said, here’s a small but distinguished list of where modular guys and girls have ended up this year from my current ATO and friends from others and how they got there; DHL (school placement) Wizz Air (open applications on their website) Ryanair (open applications on their website) easyJet (school placement) Loganair (networking- send off an email to HR and get lucky, combined with some school placement) Emerald Airlines (networking) West Atlantic (networking) Jet 2 (PA scheme) Eastern Airways (networking) TUI (networking) 3.) Do airlines like easyJet hire exclusively from their integrated partner schools? No. Again, I am studying full time ‘combined modular’ at a well known ATO whose head of recruitment previously sent modular cadets to airlines like easyJet from a previous ATO and is continuing this today at our ATO. Airlines couldn’t care less what training route you took- so long as A.) your ATPL average is good (BA have quoted 85% average with max 1 retake) and B.) you pass your CPL/IR first series (preferably first time). Drop me a PM if you have any questions :) |
Hi manflex,
Regarding no. 1, I agree that real world experience would be something more valuable for me than anything money can buy. Even testing the waters and establishing connections in other fields (mostly engineering like I mentioned before) would be a great way to build up a 'Plan B' in case aviation doesn't work out. I think that I will take your advice and go find myself a job after sixth form (although I was hoping to start working some retail jobs in S5 (Year 12 in England) and save up some money on the side), the advantages are innumerable. I have also investigated the University Air Squadrons which are run by the RAF (as well as the gliding scholarship which is available from 16 years old) and it seems like a decent way to get hands on with aircraft while doing a degree at uni. Working airside ops at my local field (EDI) might be a shout also? What do you think? With no. 2, I was looking around at flight schools in my area (Edinburgh) and unfortunately one of my top picks (Tayside) just entered administration a few months ago. I'll keep nosing around but by the time I actually start training things could be very different. Do you think it's better to do a 'semi-integrated' (i.e. save up for the full cost and do modular in one big burst) or learn part-time on the side? My one concern with the latter is that it could take infinitely longer if training is only confined to weekends and holidays as opposed to doing it full time, especially with things like cheaper hour-building opportunities in the States (not like you can commute to Florida for a day or two!). my current ATO easyJet (school placement) TUI (networking) Airlines couldn’t care less what training route you took- so long as A.) your ATPL average is good Many thanks for your reply, it's certainly been very helpful. Best of luck in your studies :) |
It's also sensible to have a trade/skill to fall back on for the bad times. You'll probably read how cyclical the aviation industry is and a fallback skill/trade would be sensible.
Based on nothing other than my own observation, I'd suggest electrician or plumber... It's almost impossible to find one that's available and the ones that are can pretty much make up their price or pick and choose jobs and people will pay it! |
Beaker,
Thanks for the advice, I've definitely thought about how unsafe it would be (job security-wise) to go straight from school to training especially with a big ~50k loan over my head! a fallback skill/trade would be sensible electrician or plumber |
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
Hello lads, I'm a year or two away from leaving secondary school here in the UK and to be honest I've become infatuated with aviation over the past few years. I would love nothing more than to spend my working hours in a cockpit as opposed to the traditional 9-5 and all the pilots I've spoken to agree wholeheartedly that it is one of the best jobs that one could possibly work. The way I see it integrated is prohibitively expensive while modular is more "grindy" and allows your experience to build up (which should be better for jobseeking right?!). A few questions:
Unfortunately the decision is often out of your hands. You talk about ‘getting a loan’. Bluntly, do your parents have a spare £100K in the bank, or are willing to remortgage the home to get access to the £100K? If not, you’re going modular and your training will progress at the speed of cash if you wish to do it straight out of uni, or you’ll be saving for a long time to attempt the integrated route. If it were me in that case, Modular alongside work 100% of the time. Integrated schools are very good at advertising, having been on this site I guarantee your instagram and Facebook feeds will be littered with adverts from CAE, L3 etc with models in their gleaming white Pilot shirts with gold braid up to their eyeballs. It’s all spin. Finish the training and all that matters is that piece of paper. Keep at it, it’s the best job in the world. Do uni though, best three years of your life, the life experiences will be incredibly useful, not just for the training, but your life generally. |
VariablePitchP,
do your parents have a spare £100K in the bank, or are willing to remortgage the home to get access to the £100K If it were me in that case, Modular alongside work 100% of the time. Integrated schools are very good at advertising, having been on this site I guarantee your instagram and Facebook feeds will be littered with adverts from CAE, L3 etc with models in their gleaming white Pilot shirts with good braid up to their eyeballs. It’s all spin. Finish the training and all that matters is that piece of paper. Do uni though, best three years of your life, the life experiences will be incredibly useful, not just for the training, but your life generally. Cheers for the help, means a lot. |
Go to university and go Modular
I recommend going to university, if you can study a degree which doesn’t relate to aviation directly. But ensure you at least have some interest in it. Some would argue university is a waste of money and do a trade job, however I think it gives you more options job wise personally.
I recommend Modular ( pay as you go) for each rating. Get your class 1 medical first before paying for any training. NEVER pay large amounts upfront for training. I personally did a MSc in Building Surveying and i am currently working as a Project Manager in construction to help fund my training. I also work two delivery jobs on the side. I got my ppl via the modular route and i am hour building on the weekends. It is a long hard road and sometimes you question yourself, however keep at it and just remember others have been in your position who went modular and made the dream come true. It might take several years however patience and perseverance is key. Safe skies Captain. |
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460700)
VariablePitchP,
Frankly no, and nor would I want to put the financial strain on my family to advance my own career interests. Is there a disadvantage to working, saving on the side, then doing modular full time? The way I see it I would rather be devoted to one thing at a time (plus the ~4.5% interest is nice too :ok:) Unfortunately you're right, all it took was one search for "integrated vs modular" and suddenly I'm up to my neck in adverts that look like something you could in an episode of Mr Bean. Especially nowadays with many ATOs having good links to the airlines (see ManFlex above) is there any advantage whatsoever to doing it integrated? Genuinely interested as for 2x the price it doesn't seem like a lot of bang for the buck. That's the plan. Even better, uni's free in Scotland, so no debt as far as that's concerned. As I mentioned in a reply above (if it went through) there's also the university air squadrons which I think are good aviation experience while studying. Cheers for the help, means a lot. Just to make it absolutely clear, without backing from your parents, you’re not getting a loan. You might be able to borrow £5K but you haven’t got any security so they won’t lend you the money. Your only options are pay as you go, or save up and do it all. The latter is just adding 12 to 18 months and giving life more opportunities to get in the way and derail you. Will it be a pretty grim 3 to 4 years of working full time whilst living at home / in a box flat on beans and rice whilst you spend every penny on training? Yes. Will it be worth it when you’re sat flying an airliner a decade from now, debt free? Also yes. |
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460681)
Beaker,
Do you think something like airport ops or aerospace engineering is as unstable as the piloting market? IT can be a good field where plenty of companies will recruit people on 6-12 month contracts just to get a job done so perhaps worth considering. It's a very varied field though, so certainly worth researching to see which skill sets favour the contractors lifestyle. Of course all of the above mentioned positions would probably need you to brush up on latest developments, regulations etc. before you pick up your tools after you've had a long break. Definitely double-check for yourself against what I've suggested. These things are mostly based on what I've seen and there may be things I'm wrong about it haven't considered, but in my opinion could be a sensible route to go down. Also, just to echo what has already been said. Don't take out loans for this. Do your PPL and some hour building alongside full-time work. It's an enjoyable hobby in itself and no need to rush it. When you come to the ground school and professional part of your training, you can decide whether to do this alongside your job (possibly part-time) or take some time off and do those bits as quickly as possible. If you live frugally and earn yourself a reasonable amount, it should certainly be possible. If you work in a trade self-employed, you might be able to consider making your own hours up. i.e. Work more in the winter to maximize your earnings and take more days off in the summer to get more flying done! You sound like a sensible guy who's willing to listen to advice so I wish you the best of luck. |
It's always better to have a degree than not. But remember that a degree takes 3 years. In that same time period you could have a fATPL. Getting the first job is probably the hardest of all and a lot of it is down to having the good fortune to finish at the right time.
Most people become a pilot, then choose their company (or have the choice made for them). But there is another option: Play the long game by joining an airline then becoming a pilot. Take a ground role preferably in flight ops then work and save while building hours. If you live at home and maybe take a second job you could save half the money (£25k ish) in 2 years and easily borrow the other half. When they start hiring cadets if you've kept your nose clean you'll be a shoe-in for an assessment. Regarding loans - it definitely IS better to borrow rather than save as long as you can comfortably afford the repayments. It gets you where you want to be quicker. If you don't take the loan and instead save up - you could potentially shorten your flying career by 2 years. What does a senior Captain/TRI/TRE make in 2 years? |
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
Hello lads
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
all the pilots I've spoken to agree wholeheartedly that it is one of the best jobs that one could possibly work.
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
Would you recommend going to uni, getting a secure and well-paying job and saving for a few years then starting training or going to uni and taking out a loan straight off the bat?
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
I appreciate that financial stability may be something that employers are looking for in a candidate
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
it would also allow me to get some real experience of industry before starting pilot training
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
I was considering going to uni for software engineering/computing science, civil engineering, electrical engineering or even aerospace engineering and getting a job in those fields.
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
(I would also hate the idea of an outstanding loan hovering above my head while I complete my studies).
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
Having got your ATPL, is finding a job difficult?
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
I have heard (or read rather) horror stories of people floating about for years after securing their license looking for a job only to fly bizjets in the end.
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
Would UK airlines such as easyjet ever even consider hiring modular graduates or do they hire exclusively from their cadet programs?
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11460628)
(Again the cost + high risk + low experience/occupational mobility) makes this route very very unattractive for me.
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Originally Posted by alexeyAP
Frankly no, and nor would I want to put the financial strain on my family to advance my own career interests.
save up and fund £100k get your parents to remortgage The military is both competitive and also will probably be able to tell you are after a flying qualification. It will also take a decade or more. There are very few, if any, full scholarships in 2023 or the foreseeable future. Over the past twenty years, I have encountered/can think of precisely three. One was for one person a year, one was for just one person (and was an in-house/not advertised deal) and the other was by EasyJet; but only for 6 female pilots. As far as I know, none are still avalialbe.
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
Is there a disadvantage to working, saving on the side, then doing modular full time? The way I see it I would rather be devoted to one thing at a time (plus the ~4.5% interest is nice too )
Originally Posted by alexeyAP
is there any advantage whatsoever to doing it integrated? Genuinely interested as for 2x the price it doesn't seem like a lot of bang for the buck.
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Peter,
a degree which doesn’t relate to aviation directly VariablePitchP, Then it’s an absolute no brainer if it’s free. Just to make it absolutely clear, without backing from your parents, you’re not getting a loan Will it be a pretty grim 3 to 4 years of working full time whilst living at home / in a box flat on beans and rice whilst you spend every penny on training? Yes. Will it be worth it when you’re sat flying an airliner a decade from now, debt free? Also yes. Beaker, If you're a self-employed tradesman, you don't need to really worry about what a recruiter is going to think. I think you'd have no shortage of work if you were in a "in demand" trade, especially if you have mates in the business as they'll always be looking for good subcontractors. Don't take out loans for this. Do your PPL and some hour building alongside full-time work. It's an enjoyable hobby in itself and no need to rush it. You sound like a sensible guy who's willing to listen to advice so I wish you the best of luck. rudestuff, you could save half the money (£25k ish) in 2 years and easily borrow the other half you could potentially shorten your flying career by 2 years Thanks for the advice. hobbit, Several employers are probably looking for your ability to pay for a type rating. A degree will not (mostly). It is an academic qualification; the real world is very different. You may be well advised to have a backup career/means of income software/computer engineering Unless you are lucky enough to be able to pay for £100k of pilot training outright Thanks for the reply anyhow. |
[QUOTE]I have heard (or read rather) horror stories of people floating about for years after securing their license looking for a job only to fly bizjets in the end./QUOTE]
WOW! That is a statement and a half! I worked as an "only Bizjet pilot" for many years until I finally, after breaking the mould to get there, broke into Airline flying. 4 years and 3 airlines later I was sick of being abused, utterly bored at work flying back and forth to the same boring easy places and underpaid so went back to being "only a Bizjet pilot". 'Now retired but have experiences and seen places no airline pilot would ever get near to dreaming of, and earning more doing it.' Meeting every famous name you can think of and having NO destination I can think of missing from my wanabees. But you think Ryanair would be more desirable? Think again man! |
Originally Posted by ManFlex40
(Post 11460648)
3.) Do airlines like easyJet hire exclusively from their integrated partner schools?
No. Again, I am studying full time ‘combined modular’ at a well known ATO whose head of recruitment previously sent modular cadets to airlines like easyJet from a previous ATO and is continuing this today at our ATO. Airlines couldn’t care less what training route you took- so long as A.) your ATPL average is good (BA have quoted 85% average with max 1 retake) and B.) you pass your CPL/IR first series (preferably first time). Drop me a PM if you have any questions :) |
CaptSackJarrow,
MPL / CAE / L3 |
happyjack, apologies if I caused offense but the 'horror' of those situations is that one can be in limbo for years after completing training, and many people give up and settle for something
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Originally Posted by alexeyAP
(Post 11461331)
happyjack, apologies if I caused offense but the 'horror' of those situations is that one can be in limbo for years after completing training, and many people give up and settle for something lesser, even if it is still flying. I hope you'll excuse my cheek before but my end goal (as was yours at one point it seems) is to go and fly for the airlines one day. Safe travels.
I fly for a major airline, one of my friends flies a Gulfstream for a private owner. He has far more time off down route than I do, far nicer destinations and the jet’s owner has on occasion paid for a ticket for his wife to join him in sunny climes. I wouldn’t want to do his job, there’s too much standby and he has to do a lot more work on the planning side than I would, it’s a lot more independent and less “shut the flight deck door and go home” than I like. Equally he would feel completely stifled in the environment I operate in, and wouldn’t get on at all with a very uniform corporate culture that I like very much as it provides me with a good work/life balance. The best job is the one you want - and we all want different things. Flying is flying, there is nothing special about flying for an airline; many would argue quite the opposite in fact! Edit: the reason people are being prickly is that, without any professional aviation experience, you are calling certain jobs “lesser”. That, for me at least, includes colleagues who have fought hard for an airline job, been made redundant or even decided that it is not for them, and taken to flying air ambulance flights or bizjets, are “lesser” pilots and to be looked down upon from the lofty heights of a 737-800 on its way to Faro, arguably the most vanilla job of all. The man whose job I, personally, envy most has never flown anything bigger than an Aztec (and believe it or not that’s all he ever wanted to do). |
Speedtrimfail, again I apologise, I can see how it comes across as arrogant because obviously I have next to no flying experience of my own. I'll keep my options open for corporate flying though, it does seem like a bit more fun than the airlines. Take care.
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