Originally Posted by
VariablePitchP
1) Uni or no Uni? Now of course going to Uni is a great way to get better earning potential and also acts as a "Plan B", but I just can't see myself spending approx. 3 years doing a course which isn't my end goal career, only to end up with a mountain of debt and somewhat questionable job prospects.
Totally up to you. Best three years of your life if it’s right for you. I don’t buy into the Plan B rubbish. You want to be a pilot, go be a pilot. A degree doesn’t help much without experience anyway so a true Plan B needs another 5 years in industry, you’re looking at a decade all in to have a really solid plan B. Or you could just become a pilot… If that doesn’t work then go and get a different job.
It’s like leaving school with the dream of becoming a police officer but first spending five years getting all of your accounting qualifications ‘just in case’, makes no sense.
2) Is saving while working a 22-25k job a realistic prospect? Doing some basic calculations, taking an estimate of £1,700 post-tax monthly income and saving the majority of that, let's say £1,300 that makes £15,600 per year and dividing that by the average cost of a modular programme, 60-70k, means I'd be purely saving for 4ish years, seems like a while, doesn't it?
No. But why would you get a 22-25K job? Plenty of jobs that’ll pay better than that you can walk into, they may just be pretty savage. You may need to work extra hours, but 60 hours a week when you’re young and massively motivated is very doable. If you’re doing less than that question your motivation. As has been endlessly said on here, you can borrow a good chunk of the cash once you get some credit behind you. Start grossing £35K a year, bank £20K a year. Two years of that, couple of loans and you’re there.
3) Loans - Now taking out a loan sounds like an obvious way to speed up the process, but I absolutely hate the idea of having debt hanging over my head and putting extra pressure on succeeding, etc. What would happen if training doesn't work out in the end and I'm stuck with it?
It’s a loan, you’d have to pay it off. Same with a mortgage if you lose your job. Them’s the breaks.
4) Modular/Integrated for full-time training - Obviously, the big selling point of modular is the flexibility of being able to work alongside studying (and the hefty discount), however, I'd much rather prefer to focus on one thing at a time and get it over and done with ASAP. How does the workload compare between the two, e.g., is integrated a lot more demanding compared to modular? Also, I'd assume airlines prefer a continuous training record from a single organisation as opposed to something cobbled together from multiple ATOs.
Airlines don’t care where you got the piece of paper from. Case in point, BA is currently open for Modular students who have trained at up to 3 ATOs
5) Job prospects - I've seen a lot of conflicting info about this. How exactly does getting a job after obtaining your fATPL work? I've heard of people jumping straight into the RHS of an airliner and absolute horror stories of those who find no job whatsoever for years on end. A basic glance at most airlines' careers pages shows you need to have some decent time in a commercial operation or on type, which seems like a bit of a catch-22. The phrase "Cadet programme" comes into play here, how does that work?
If you do reasonably well in training, and have at least some degree of aptitude you’re fine. It’s Europe, the system is geared up for entry to the RHS of a 737/320. You’ve got EU right to work as well. That puts you about most UK licence holders. Worst case, you can just throw £30K at Ryanair for a type rating and work for them. When a job’s that close that is a no brainer for the debt equation.
6) EASA/UK licenses - Due to the joys of Brexit, from my understanding, UK CAA license holders are only allowed to fly G-Reg aircraft which seems extremely limiting since the likes of RYR UK / WZZ UK are quite small operations compared to their EU counterparts. Would getting both licenses be logical or just an extra bit of workload for little reward, what about adding it on later if needs be? (I also have EU Citizenship if that plays a part, but would obviously be aiming for UK bases)
Massively increases your employability. Do them in parallel, schools are geared up for it. If you go back and do it later you’ll be relearning question banks.
7) Sponsored programmes...Do they even exist?
Yes, can only speak for the UK but TUI have already recruited this year for a funded scheme, which hopefully you applied for. BA open this year, again you’ll presumably be applying for that!
8) Now this might seem like the most basic of basic questions but how hard is the actual training? Now I'm no genius, but I'm not absolutely inept either just...very average (maths does slightly horrify me though), any figures on dropout rate or personal experience?
Pretty easy to be honest. Groundschool goes no harder than C grade GCSE maths. The workload is very high, the content is simple. Commercial flying is designed to be as easy as it can be as it makes it safer. You’re not joining the Red Arrows.
9) When (If) you do manage to get a job I assume the airline assigns time to train you up on their SOPs, etc, what does that onboarding process look like?
Maybe a week of mucking about at head office learning how to wear ear defenders but generally if you’re new to type it’s a six week type rating then maybe another 4- 6weeks of line training. Then you’re signed off to go and see the world*
*World being a euphemism for the crew car park at 3am and various European airport coffee shops of varying quality.
10) Last one I promise, can anyone give me a quick and dirty guide on how modular is structured? Obviously, you start by getting your PPL and eventually finish with a CPL (which from my understanding is the same as an fATPL if you complete the ATPL theory. As you can tell I'm slightly confused by it) but what are the steps in between? Also, is this different from the basic structure of integrated i.e. the order in which you earn your licenses?
fATPL isn’t a thing, it’s just a handy name for the collection of bits of paper you get at the end. ATPL theory, ME CPL/IR for the ‘fATPL’. Then you add in an APS MCC with a sprinkling of UPRT and you’re good to go. Unlike the US where people really do take all sorts of routes, it’s a given here that you want to fly a jet so the schools are all structured around the fATPL, you’d have to actively go against the grain to not end up with that at the end.
Originally Posted by
rudestuff
1) Personally No. Simply because your backup plan would cost the same if not more than your primary. The number one reason for going to Uni should be because you want to. Plenty of places will offer a degree to piggy back on your ATPL later on.
2) A plan is only as realistic as your ability to stick to it. which is why short and sharp is better. If you're going to give up 2 years of your life to be a worker bee then commit to it. 2 years should be the maximum. Work evenings and 7 days a week if you need to. The temptation will be there to spread it out over just a few more years. Your friends aren't coming with you on this journey, sorry.
3) Loans are not necessary. But how many people do you know who rented for 25 years then bought a house in cash? Debts is a fact of modern life and is useful.
If you only ever eat, sleep and work 2-3 jobs, taking home 2k a month while living at home with zero expenses - what makes you think you can't afford a bit of debt? Those 2 years will be the foundation of the rest of your life. Your work ethic will be through the roof and everything will seem easy.
Think of it this way: You have to save money before you can spend it. Borrowed money can be spent immediately. Let's say you need 60k and you can save 15k per year. You save for 4 years then you can spend it. If you borrow the money and pay it off over 4 years you can spend it NOW. Yes you'll spend a bit in interest - but the time saved is a thousand times more valuable:
If your goal is to get into an airline job then every year you wait costs you £200,000.
4) Don't believe the hype. Integrated/MPL should ONLY be done if there's a guaranteed job or near to a guaranteed job at the end of it. It is not quicker. If you are smarter you'll be held back by learning at the pace of the rest of the class. Modular means you dictate the pace, which can be faster than integrated.
5) The hardest part. Timing is everything, some people fall straight into jobs and others don't. Don't think that's just bad luck and believe all the sob stories either - someone had to be at the bottom of the class.
In Europe anyone without at least 500 hours of Jet experience is considered a cadet. It's the entry level, and it's based on training costs. The most desirable pilot will be type rated and experienced. My last job gave me 3 sims and 10 sectors of line training which took a few weeks. A cadet will have to do 6-8 weeks of groundschool and 14 Sim sessions, wait 3-4 weeks for their licence then do 40-80 line training sectors. It's much more expensive and a much bigger training burden. Some airlines like RYR have a business model based on Cadets. Others will only take small numbers out when market conditions force them to. Being that first job is half luck and half guile. Plenty of people have back-doored themselves into the cockpit by starting in a ground role at an airline. The HR people get a hard-on for those zero to hero stories that go into the company newsletter. Its the long game but it works. Now who do you know who needs a regular job for a few years? Yes you, you sneaky bastard.
6) Some things are so obvious it's ridiculous. Like people with US passports who say "should I train in Europe or the US?" You get the licence which offers the most prospects. For you that's Europe. So get both.
7) Yes. Find them, apply, get rejected, move on.
8) Easy. If you can drive a car you can fly a plane. Maths is GCSE level. For the exams you'll need to understand angles and ratios (1:60 etc), sin/cos/tan for navigation working out lat/long etc, time zones. Nothing that can't be learned or relearned. Why would you talk about drop out rates? Don't you want to do it?
9) Not exactly something you need to worry about is it? You just go with the flow. They send you to ground school for the type they want you to fly then you do the sim training and the test. You do all the ground courses you need like CRM, Dangerous goods, wet drills in the pool, safety equipment, firefighting etc... and then you start flying your line training...
10) I can only tell you about modular because I'm not a rich idiot. That's a lie - I wasn't a rich idiot.
Integrated: you do a load of exams and flying but you don't get a licence of any kind until the very end. Wash out and you get nothing.
Modular: You start with a PPL (or even LAPL but you need an ICAO PPL to start the ATPL exams)
Because you need an ICAO PPL the easiest, quickest and cheapest PPL to get is an FAA one from the US. Because of this wonderful thing called predictable weather, you can get an FAA PPL(called a certificate) in under 4 weeks. It's possible to get a CAA PPL in under a year.
My advice: take 2 blocks of 2 weeks holiday in your first year and get an FAA private.
After private things get a bit murky, so concentrate on what you want to end up with and work backwards:
You need a CPL with MEIR and ATPL theory credits. Understand that every licence has exams. PPL has exams. IR has exams. CPL has exams. ATPL has exams. The great thing about the CAA/EASA system is that all exams are downwards creditable: because 99% of people plan to sit the ATPL exams anyway, they simply do those after the PPL and use them instead of the CPL&IR exams, then use them again for their ATPL.
The CPL requires 200 hours with 100 PIC so there's hour building to be done. The MEIR requires you to have an MEP rating, so there's that. But that requires 70 hours PIC to start. The beauty of the modular system is you can do any course in any order, but obviously there is an optimal order. Actually there are two optimal orders. One which makes the flight school the most money and one which saves you the most money. Guess which one they will try to sell you?
90% of people do something like this: Medical, PPL, ATPLS, hour building, CPL and MEP, MEIR. This is not the cheapest way to do it, and it's all to do with hour building. Trust me, I know this because I fell into the same trap as everyone else. If you get your CPL first you'll have 200 hours before you start your IR. Then you'll fly at least 15 hours multi engine plus 30 hours in a simulator for the IR. You'll finish with approx 220 hours. If you get the IR first, you can do it after 50 hours cross country PIC. You could start IR training the 100TT point. If you do your SEIR you can do it ALL in the airplane - combining it with your hour building - hours that you were going to fly anyway. The additional cost is only the instructor. Don't get me wrong, SIM training can be useful but the airane is effectively free if you're hour building anyway. The SEIR gives you multiple advantages: 1. You only need one type of IR to stick the clock on the ATPL exams (they expire after 36 months if you don't get a CPL and IR) and the SEIR is by far the fastest answer cheapest way to do that. 2. You can upgrade the SEIR to MEIR with a 5 hour course (3 in three sim) meaning you could save 10+ hours multi training. The disadvantage is that you have to take a second IR test to upgrade. But overall by doing the IR before the CPL your get to finish with 200 hours and save yourself 30+ expensive sim hours and 10 very expensive multi hours. An easy £10k in the pocket.
For your wallet the optimum order is:
Medical, PPL, ATPL exams, 50 hours XC PIC, SEIR (CBIR route), hour build to 175 then STOP.
Stop to assess the job market.
If the job market is good: MEP, MEIR upgrade, SECPL at 200 hours.
If the job market is poor: WAIT until 30 months after ATPLs passed, hour build, SECPL at 200 hours.
Why two options? If there are no jobs there is no point in having the qualification or spending the money. You'll need to keep it current every year, plus recent graduates are more desirable. However, the ATPL exams have an expiry, so once they get close to expiring you have no choice but to take a SECPL to save them in the cheapest manner. The only real difference between the two options is taking the MEP and MEIR short course before or after 200 hours, and in real terms the only extra expense is about 10 hours of extra hour building, so maybe £1000-1500. That buys you the flexibility to slow down your training and choose when you finish your Modular program to coincide with the best possible market. Most people don't think that way. They plough on and qualify into a poor market, spend a fortune revalidation whilst slowly aging out and eventually give up. Finding yourself in a poor market with only a SE IR/CPL and the money in your back pocket to pay for the upgrade means you have nothing to revalidate. When you market picks up, you do the MEP and MEIR and "qualify" with a brand new licence.
All I can say is wow, didn't expect such high quality, in depth responses, thank you so much everyone.
Still have a few nagging questions though:
1) To put it simply why does integrated...exist? In a perfect world, you would think people would go for the cheapest and most flexible option leaving integrated courses deserted, but the opposite seems to be true. Is it just the whiff of a possible advantage when applying for jobs or is there something more I'm missing?
2) In terms of dual licensing, how would this work when undertaking a modular course, two sets of exams for each stage or some kind of different arrangement?
3) Somewhat related to the second question, how would working for an EU airline work when being based in the UK? Do the likes of RYR have their EI registered aircraft based at let's say STN for EASA licensed crew?
4) For the "downwards creditable" exams part rudestuff talked about, does that essentially mean you do the ATPL exams first and then that's a "get out of jail free card" for the CPL and IR ones?
p.s - I'm not sure if I'm doing the whole quote/reply thing correctly so if it turns into a complete mess, apologies.