Ryan Air and EZ Jet Looking!!

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BM

Seconded

S

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm not actually a share holder. I was expressing an alternate viewpoint.

One of the jobs I do here is to stir up and create interesting threads. Else it gets a little turgid at times. This is a cracking thread in which people have been moved to compose well researched postings covering a range of issues.

Hopefully any inexperienced Wannabe who reads this thread will have gained a useful insight into an important issue.

If I have to have a few people cross with me as a result. So be it.

I also pop up in other guises and have been known to have a go at myself at times

Its all smoke and mirrors mate.

Its also a very hot forum

Cheers

WWW

[Baldie Man]

No hidden agenda whatsoever then??

[Hap Hazard]

Canada Goose, pity there were not more level headed and thinking wannabes like you around.
The Airline industry is not what I thought it would be like and is going through some pretty tough times.
Please dont get me wrong, I love my job, but I am finding out that I am having to make some pretty big family sacrifices to stay in work.
My advice to you is, if you still want to become a pilot, dont spend all your hard earned cash at the moment, watch the market very carefully and see what direction it moves in and when there are positive signs of improvement go for it.
There are lots people out there banging on about how the market is picking up....oh really, where?
Being around for your family growing up is the most important thing to you and your wife, not sitting in some hotel bar, it sounds great, but it aint.
Having done the airline bit now, if I could find a job flying small stuff that allows me to be with my family and pay the bills I would be off.
If she who must be obeyed is earning a good wage, what about instructing or something?
By the sounds of it you are far to bright for this forum!
To all those other wannabe's trying to find a job, I know how you feel as I have been there myself, but even when times were good, it was never easy...here we go........

[Canada Goose]

.......the other side to the story

Hap Hazard,

Thanks for your implicit understanding and moral support. You've pretty much summed up what my strategy would be; that of waiting to see which way the market turns. Of course, there's always that nagging issue at the back of my mind which is, if things pick up swiftly and I already have the main prerequiste, i.e. fATPL, then I'm in an eligible position to hopefully be picked up. However, if I wait and see if the market picks up, then I'm already behind the curve as I'd have to do all the exams and conversions. For it to be effective, I'd probably have to give up my 'day job', as opposed to my former thinking, which was studying and flying outside of 'work hours'. I would hate to be in a position that I'm sure some 'modular' people have unfortunately found themselves in whereby they have studied and trained at great personal cost for several years during the 'boom' years leading up to 11 months ago only to graduate just as the market shifts rapidly the other way.

HH, you've also touched on another interesting point, that regarding instructing or other small job. It's true 'she who must be obeyed' would be bringing home a fair old slice of bacon, and all things being equal I would readily consider such options. However, having already resigned myself to the fact I'd be taking a pay cut if I ever made the leap to an airline, there is a limit to how low I can go as Mrs Goose likes a pretty special nest, not to mention other fine things (read expensive) in life and although she can hold her own, she'll also be expecting Mr Goose to bring home a significant contribution for the nest, and after all, 'she must be obeyed' . That notwithstanding, I had meant to mention on my previous posts that for me, becoming Captain on a long haul 747 is not the 'be all and end all'. Far from it, if I can balance having a reasonably stable family life and earn enough to pay my way at home, with enough left over to save in my nest egg, then I'll be a happy camper. If this means working for an airtaxi or turbo prop regional then so be it, fine by me. All things being equal, if I could get a flying job that would allow me to stay local and have a family, then they could expect from me, years and years of faithful service. Hap Hazard, interstingly you also think along the same lines, given that you're already in an airline flying job and yet would be prepared to make a move that many would consider retrogressive !

Another point I had wanted to mention on my previous posts was that I don't have any real objection to airlines 'bonding' a pilot for a TR so long as other terms and conditions were reasonable. Very similar in my field to employers paying for relocation costs, which if you leave under your own volition within a specified time period, usually before the end of your first two years then you have to pay back a pro-rated amount. Seems fair to me !

Anyway, time to go and find a few more twigs for my nest ......

Cheers, C.G.

[SPEEDBIRD5FP]

ok how about this,
if your some one who payed for the TR with the ryans, and subsequently found him self unemployed after 6 months, post a reply here.
OR if your someone who payed for it, tell us your thoughts, did you regret it, or was it one of the best decisions of your life?

I think youll find out of the last 32 cadets, 31 have a permanent position with ryan.
unfortunatly, what they are doing is simply good business sense.
Time are very hard right now for any one to get a job. if the ryans get someone to pay for a TR, theyd be mad not to take them, absolutly no risk to the company, but another potential pilot who will be happy to work damn hard. also if this guy or gal only has 200hrs or what ever, they would be mad to give that person a longtem contract. I am not pro or against ryanair, just tyring to take a balanced view.
Speedbird

A very experienced captain once said to me, never turn down an opportunity in aviation, you never know when youll get the next one.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Ah who cares ... people get so fired up about all this, but it's really only the one company who charge for ratings anyway.

If you really really must be a 737 jockey with only 200 hours to your name then as far as I'm concerned you buys the rating and you takes your chance. If you get the job then it's a massive break and more power to you, if you don't, then tough sh!t and it serves you right for trying to run before you can walk.

Those of you who DON'T want to buy the rating, then don't get all fired up about it, just carry on doing what 95% of the rest of airline pilots did ... instruct your way to your first thousand hours, wait patiently for your first break in air taxi or turboprop. get your command, do that for another year or two and then start sending CVs to the big jet boys. You'll still get there.

It's kind of like the way people invest in the sharemarket ... some people are drawn to buying the short term, high risk, high reward shares (FATPL with 737 rating), some of them hit the jackpot but the risk of coming up empty handed is that much greater. Others take a long term view and invest in blue chip institutions (working your way through GA and turboprops) where the initial rewards are low but the chances of it all going pear shaped are a bit less.

The wannabe world will not come to an end like some of you seem to think, just because one particularly sharp Irish operator starts taking advantage of the current downturn to charge for type ratings. They brought that policy in pretty much overnight post Sep 11th and they can and will change it just as quickly if the employment scene turns around.

[Broken Wings]

Cracking debate and occasionally deep into the light buffet stage so I'm just going to push the nose forward a little and introduce another reason why I personally might have to pay for my own Type Rating (against all instincts I have to say) .....

Applied to Emirates online and recieved a corrupt email but it said "applicant does not meet requirements for FO". Emirates minimum requirements at the moment are;

A minimum of 2500 hours total flying time
A minimum of 1000 hours multi-crew, multi-engine jet aircraft experience
ICAO ATPL
Applicants must be 48 years or younger
Experience commensurate with age.

At the moment I don't have an ICAO ATPL but a frozen JAA-FCL ATPL (JAA-FCL CPL/IR + ATPL exams). However on the application form you have to state your licence number so I entered my CPL/IR one > = Rejected.

The problem is that under the old CAA licence I would now have a CAA ATPL because there was an hours and exam requirement. Now under JAA-FCL its hours - exams and a multi-pilot rating (ATPL skills test). I surpass the hours requirements and I have the exams but the catch 22 (unless I pay for a Type Rating) is that I can't get an ATPL until I get a job but I can't apply for some jobs unless I have an ATPL!

I am trying to get a friend on the inside to help with my predicament but the last resort will be to pay for a type rating on the cheapest multi-pilot aircraft that I can find; or wait until the market picks up and eat up my savings in the meantime. What would you do?

[Flypuppy]

Luke,

You make some good points, but the problem, as I understand it, is that other airlines (EZY included) are watching with interest to see how Ryanairs scheme goes. It is kind of reminisent of the mid '80s when British Midland first introduced bonding in the UK, that has now become standard throughout the industry.

Why do I get fired up about this? Well, I will have invested the thick end of GBP60,000 and over a year of my life into getting a CPL/IR (fATPL/MCC). My own preference is to try and get a job working for a TP operator in a 2 crew environment driving bandits/shed/atr42/F50 or anything anyone will give me and then graduate onwards and upwards.

Instructing in the UK (and also here in the Benelux countries) is, from what I have heard from people that are currently instructing, becoming a much more difficult option. Fewer people are training for a PPL since the introduction of the JAR PPL. Add to that the current oversupply of instructors and the low pay (GBP500 per month basic plus GBP5-10 per flying hour) means for some of us older guys that isnt an option.

Air taxi work is a non starter, JAR rules require a pilot to have >700 hours before you can do that. (once I have completed my IR I will only have 500hrs).

OK, so imagine life a couple of years down the road, Ryanair's scheme has been a great success for the shareholders and all the airlines are now requiring pilots to pay for a type rating. So even after doing the apprenticeship in the traditional manner, you still get shafted for at least GBP15k. I guess thats why I get hot under the collar about it all.

I dont understand this notion that it is "good business sense" to buy a Type Rating. If a business makes an investment it requires a Return On Investment, normally in the region of 2% above base rate. This would equate to a 6% ROI at todays rate. So on an investment of GBP75,000 (CPL/IR plus TR) that would mean an income of GBP79,500 in the first year. That is never going to happen, and that I can accept. Becoming a pilot is not a good business decision, there is too much emotional content in that decision. That companies cynically take advantage of our enthusiasm and bank accounts is a pretty low thing to do.

Brock Landers, you are right of cours, BALPA SHOULD be involved in trying to stop airlines charging for TR's, but as a union they seem to be pretty ineffectual in general, and all but useless for low houred guys, the employment conference being the exception to that.

www

First you tell us "As a shareholder I think its a great idea."
and then you say "I'm not actually a share holder."
Make up your fecking mind, then we can figure out what your intentions and motives are.

One of the jobs I do here is to stir up and create interesting threads.

So what is this forum? Entertainment or information? I can tell you I am not so much cross with you as deeply disappointed. Maybe for you as 737 sky-god it is fun to tweak our tails and watch us get upset, but the situation that wannabe's face now is very different to what you had to face.

I no longer have any respect for you or your viewpoints, Andy. If any inexperienced wannabe's have bothered to trawl this far through this thread, I certainly hope they have learned that you arent quite as well informed about what is happening in the aviation market as you would like people to think you are.

[Mister Geezer]

Broken Wings

At the moment you will be hard pushed to get an interview with EK unless you have around 5000hrs or more and some heavy metal time in your logbook. It is the most competitive airline to get into and quite right too, since it is a superb company. Don't lose heart since they will be needing drivers for years to come if their expansion plans come to fruition!

MG

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...369#post612369

LOVE2FLY on the first post of the page link above over on Reporting Points makes the point I was trying to express. There is a noticeable juxtaposition between what Ryanair pilots think about working for Ryanair and what other pilots think about working for Ryanair.

Its good for Wannabes to see that.

My sentiment has always been that I deplore airline run speculative type ratings that are self sponsored. Unfortunately in each recession someone does it.

My vote goes with Lukes philosophy above.

WWW

[ElNino]

I suggest Flypuppy that you do not have a jet job due to the type of immaturity you displayed in your response to WWW. A response to a viewpoint you disagree with involving threatening in a huff to never post again hardly strikes me as the balanced individual wanted on the flight deck. What would happen if you disagreed with your captains view on something? Would a differing opinion on some operation issue lead to your refusal to co-operate?

As usual the Ryan bashers are short on fact and long on rumours read here. I suppose rumours perpetuate rumours. Flypuppy claims to have contacted FR HQ for his "facts." This is rather unlikely due: a) his facts being rather wrong and b) chances of FR telling you these facts are a tad remote.

Find someone who actually flies for FR, both recent recruit or less recent and you will certainly not find opinions on FR similar to those usually stated on this forum.

[Flypuppy]

El Ninio,

I donot have a jet job yet because I do not have an IR yet. I am waiting until there is a more promising hiring market before investing the not inconsiderable sums required for that.

I did, in fact, contact Ryanair HQ. Their telephone number is 00 353 1 8121212. I spoke to a very friendly gentleman in recruitment, who answered all my questions very politely. So if you can point out which facts are rather wrong, I am sure everyone would benefit from your knowledge.

[PPRuNe Towers]

I think it should be pointed out that it is entirely possible that those FR pilots WWW knows are in their first aviation job.

If so, they have never worked anywhere else. I mix with those who have worked elsewhere first and their views are very different. No matter how enthusiastic you are you have to consider life 5 or more years into working for such a company.

Think back 5 years - wherever you work or study you most likely feel completely differently about that place now. Many rely on you to make an unthinking, enthusiastic, brain free decisions in selecting an aviation career.

If you have the chance to discuss a career with anyone in a given company, simple human nature would be for you to go to the new joiner - the person closest to you in experience and aspiration.

This may be understandable but is stupid beyond belief after the money you've laid out on becoming employable. The new joiner/first time airline pilot is the very last person on earth you should talk to. Speak instead to the people who've been there 3 or more years to get the true flavour.

After all - don't you find yourself smiling when you hear someone brand new at where you study or work raving on about how fanstastic it all is??? The truth is somewhere between the views of the insanely enthusiastic new starter and the grizzled veteran. Someone there for around 3 years is about right.

Sadly, the truth is also that many of you would prefer not to find out.

[Broken Wings]

Mister Geezer I have 5000 hours including 400+ command on VC10 and 2300+ heavy metal total; so I'm still hopeful if I can get the ATPL problem sorted.

I think we all agree on this thread that having to buy your own type rating once you've got your fATPL is wrong but the problem is it's a sellers market and it is very cut throat to get that illusive first job.

As all wannabes are not in a union there is no one to represent them so it's impossible to boycott airlines that are simply applying business sense in the current climate. Do we all sit on the fence and wait for a food surplus or do we fight for the scraps?

Before anyone says "it's OK for you but you have stacks of hours" I have not flown professionally for nearly 4 years after an accident induced medical problem, I have a restricted Class 1 and have been unemployed for a year.

[scroggs]

People, there's no need for all this bad feeling, is there? At least, not at each other; we are all on the same side here!

Unfortunately, you have to play the hand you're dealt. The market is most certainly skewed in favour of the buyer at the moment, and Ryanair have taken advantage of that fact. According to rumour (I've yet to see a definitive statement from the company), EZ are about to go the same way. I find these tactics somewhat cynical, but I doubt that we have the political or economic power to change them. However, it's not all bad.

As I understand it, the Ryanair deal is that you pay £15,000 for your type conversion and line training as a package. While there is no guarantee of a job at the end of the line training, I've yet to hear of a rejection - perhaps someone can confirm that? The pay for the first year isn't great, but I'm not sure I agree with the seemingly-accepted principle that a 200-hour fATPL should be able to walk into a £40k pa job. In my opinion, you don't have the experience to justify that level of reward. Remember, the vast majority of airline pilots have had a far longer apprenticeship before they made the dizzy heights of a jet seat, and historically there's a bloody good reason for that! I'm sure many of you will disagree with that, but I comment with 25 years and 10,000 hours of heavy experience behind me.

However, these jobs are available (at least to some), whether I like it or not! Not only that, but the prospects for a Ryanair or EZ pilot are extremely good. It's not unreasonable that you could have a £70k command within 5-6 years of joining the company as a 200-hour fATPL. I reckon that's not a bad deal!! As an aside, notwithstanding my aforementioned-25 years professional flying, I earn 'only' £43k with Virgin. But, and this is important to me, I have lots of time off, I go to nice places, and I have a life outside my job.

My last point is that Ryan do not bond you, which is the method by which most airlines 'recover' the training costs. I assume the EZ deal will be similar, if it comes to pass. That means that you have the option to leave at any point after your line training with, presumably, a month's notice. That gives you the upper hand when the market starts to improve - which it will.

In summary, if you really must have a 737 to fly as soon as you've graduated, then the Ryan deal is the only game in town. If you're prepared to work your way through the system, you'll have a greater choice of employer later on. Think carefully before you reject the deal on principle.

[Billy M]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the case that a low hour fATPL pilot can no longer go down this route anyway? Thier web site says that they only take B737 type rated pilots, with 300 hours on type.

A friend of mine who works there enquired, on my behalf, about whether or not such a pilot could still pay for the type rating (it's a great deal easier for him than it is for me to contact the main man at the recruitment department!!). They confirmed that for the time being they are not taking on such pilots.

And before I get a roasting for actually considering paying them £15000 for a job, I was enquiring merely to find out if it was a possibility or not. But as Scroggs says, maybe it shouldn't be ruled out as an option too quickly. Especially given there are very few other options about at the moment for a low houred guy to get a flying job - as Flypuppy says, Tp, instructing and air taxi are all very difficult to get into at the moment.

And for the record, the above mentioned friend does work hard at Ryanair, but there are many positives to be found from the job. He seems pretty happy.

Cheers and good luck all.
Billy M

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

PPT - good point, I speak from the very focussed position of first jet FO. Headline salary (mortgage) and time to command (bigger mortgage) are our priorities and Ryan FO's are therefore happy bunnies. When I have your hours then my views might well be different

This is a cracking thread.

Having dug around I have been told that only one person who took the Ryan offer of self type rating was not offered a subsequent job. She, is now working in another 737 airline on the South coast, and, is chuffed.

So-far then nobody seems to have been stitched up. Unlike some people felt in the early 90's. Nonethless I sympathise with Flypuppys sentiment of "oh my God, surely they don't expect another £15k from me to get a job".

Britannia are recruiting cadets, EZY apparently are looking at it, BA have decided to take on their cadets-on-ice in a flying role, BACE were advertising for FO's at Manch last week, Emerald are re-hiring crews on TP's and Virgin on 747's. Its picking up folks - great news for all.

WWW

[Tinker]

As I understand it, the Ryanair deal is that you pay £15,000 for your type conversion and line training as a package. While there is no guarantee of a job at the end of the line training, I've yet to hear of a rejection - perhaps someone can confirm that? The pay for the first year isn't great, but I'm not sure I agree with the seemingly-accepted principle that a 200-hour fATPL should be able to walk into a £40k pa job.

So-far then nobody seems to have been stitched up. Unlike some people felt in the early 90's. Nonethless I sympathise with Flypuppys sentiment of "oh my God, surely they don't expect another £15k from me to get a job".

I'm sure these comments are of little comfort to those wannabe pilots who have recently stretched themselves to the limit inorder to obtain their fATPL.

I've yet to hear of a rejection

or

So-far then nobody seems to have been stitched up.

is not going to convince a bank manager to extend a loan by another 15 grand.

I've never met a wannabe yet who expects to walk into a 40k a year job, most would accept a job that gives them a bit of twin time, if it was on a turbo prop or jet that would be a bonus but as far as wages go they would be happy with a salary that paid the bills.

In my previous 'life' I trained as a mechanical fitter turner then joined a company who added a speciality to my trade, the cost...not a bean! My wages were well below the guys I was working with, until qualified, but it was a mutually beneficial arrangement as, like many before me I would become an asset to the company.

Why should we subsidise a company to become a beneficial member of the work force? Answer, they have us by the nuts and are so unscrupulous they are willing to take the p155.

ps..

So-far then nobody seems to have been stitched up.

I could name one guy who was told by one of the above companys he would have a job if he got an appropriate type rating. He got himself a type rating and guess what, no job!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Tinker - well nobody has been stitched up. They got their rating and got their job - apart from one who got a job anyway because its the type rating of choice anyway at the moment.

Contrast with the early 90's airline offer bearing a remarkable similarity.

WWW