Ryan Air and EZ Jet Looking!!
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I have to agree with Flypuppy, those posts make good reading.
G-SPOTs Lost's post sums up my feelings entirely. Wannabes (the forum) seems to oriented more towards the airlines than the G/A side of commercial aviation, which probably explains how more people seem to be solely interested in jets for their first job. I may be wrong in my impression however that is what I have noticed!
Single pilot IFR time in a piston twin is one of the best foundations you can give yourself in your career. Flying into a remote Scottish airfield in the islands armed only with an NDB and a stopwatch will soon separate the sheep from the goats when it comes to a sim check for your next job, however as previously mentioned the single pilot environment places you in a position where you need to make command decisions from day one. If you can fly single pilot IFR then you can fly anything!!!
I have a relation of mine who is a firm believer that his first job in aviation (air taxi flying) has made him a better captain when ever he climbs into his 744 to nip across the pond. He once said to me that if faced with a medical emergency and having to dive into a remote airfield then his air taxi back ground would help him (and has done so in the past) immensely. Having to re-file flight plans, liaise with the company on the phone and deal with the local air port authorities are regarded as a normal day out when flying your piston twin in air taxi ops. I keep being told that I would be better off, cutting my teeth in the 'arse end' of aviation before moving onto something large. Nowadays I fully agree with those words!
Sorry for straying a bit off the FR/EZY topic!
MG
G-SPOTs Lost's post sums up my feelings entirely. Wannabes (the forum) seems to oriented more towards the airlines than the G/A side of commercial aviation, which probably explains how more people seem to be solely interested in jets for their first job. I may be wrong in my impression however that is what I have noticed!
Single pilot IFR time in a piston twin is one of the best foundations you can give yourself in your career. Flying into a remote Scottish airfield in the islands armed only with an NDB and a stopwatch will soon separate the sheep from the goats when it comes to a sim check for your next job, however as previously mentioned the single pilot environment places you in a position where you need to make command decisions from day one. If you can fly single pilot IFR then you can fly anything!!!
I have a relation of mine who is a firm believer that his first job in aviation (air taxi flying) has made him a better captain when ever he climbs into his 744 to nip across the pond. He once said to me that if faced with a medical emergency and having to dive into a remote airfield then his air taxi back ground would help him (and has done so in the past) immensely. Having to re-file flight plans, liaise with the company on the phone and deal with the local air port authorities are regarded as a normal day out when flying your piston twin in air taxi ops. I keep being told that I would be better off, cutting my teeth in the 'arse end' of aviation before moving onto something large. Nowadays I fully agree with those words!
Sorry for straying a bit off the FR/EZY topic!
MG
Last edited by Mister Geezer; 3rd Sep 2002 at 09:07.
I say there boy
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Speaking personally, I'd give my right arm to fly anything professionally at the moment, from B744 to a PA38.
Unfortunately I'd lose my class one medical if I did
Chin up, folks.
Cheers!
foggy.
Unfortunately I'd lose my class one medical if I did
Chin up, folks.
Cheers!
foggy.
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Mister Geezer.... I couldnt agree with you more. I think G-SPOT'S lost and AMEX's posts are spot on!!
I know so many Wannabes who continually go on about getting straight in the RH seat of a major, and dont give a second thought to the endless possibilites of some of the "REAL" flying opportunities that are out there, the kinda stuff that takes you from a average pilot to a good one.
I personally would jump at the chance to fly some single Pilot IFR, I couldnt think of a better grounding for a long and happy career. Who wants to sit and play with a computer in the plane all day anyway.......Well not just yet!
I know so many Wannabes who continually go on about getting straight in the RH seat of a major, and dont give a second thought to the endless possibilites of some of the "REAL" flying opportunities that are out there, the kinda stuff that takes you from a average pilot to a good one.
I personally would jump at the chance to fly some single Pilot IFR, I couldnt think of a better grounding for a long and happy career. Who wants to sit and play with a computer in the plane all day anyway.......Well not just yet!
Terrier
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good points.
G Spots lost:
You are quite right, there is more to life than getting a Boeing immediately, however it can make life easier if you are that lucky.
As for what would an employer prefer etc etc....well a lot of the time I think it depends what side of bed they got out of that day! It is too big a subject to generalise.
If they are a reputable outfit like my mob ( big UK charter), they will most likely prefer a track record of some sort. Bought type ratings are little use, because we have a first class training department.
However, if it is a fly by night ****ehawk operator (no names please) then the type rating may be an advantage.
Who knows?
Dr Evil 2002:
As for twiddling knobs on a computer.
You don't do much of that going into Corfu at night with thunderstorms about....or Girona for that matter....or Kos....or lots of other places really.
More often than not, you will be hand flying a visual approach into a dark hole of a runway with very poor lighting and no ILS or the likes......
Believe me, I do it.
However, you are correct in the assumption that a great deal of time on a large aircraft is spent monitoring it.
After all, why would we be pilots if we didn't actually land it ourselves when you can see the runway?!??!
Leave that for the Airbus after I am dead (after a long flying career i hope ,and a long retirement too!).
Good luck everyone. Keep then debate coming!
TS
You are quite right, there is more to life than getting a Boeing immediately, however it can make life easier if you are that lucky.
As for what would an employer prefer etc etc....well a lot of the time I think it depends what side of bed they got out of that day! It is too big a subject to generalise.
If they are a reputable outfit like my mob ( big UK charter), they will most likely prefer a track record of some sort. Bought type ratings are little use, because we have a first class training department.
However, if it is a fly by night ****ehawk operator (no names please) then the type rating may be an advantage.
Who knows?
Dr Evil 2002:
As for twiddling knobs on a computer.
You don't do much of that going into Corfu at night with thunderstorms about....or Girona for that matter....or Kos....or lots of other places really.
More often than not, you will be hand flying a visual approach into a dark hole of a runway with very poor lighting and no ILS or the likes......
Believe me, I do it.
However, you are correct in the assumption that a great deal of time on a large aircraft is spent monitoring it.
After all, why would we be pilots if we didn't actually land it ourselves when you can see the runway?!??!
Leave that for the Airbus after I am dead (after a long flying career i hope ,and a long retirement too!).
Good luck everyone. Keep then debate coming!
TS
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Studi,
I would beg to differ. THe superb hand piloting skills are still very valuable. CRM is but one part of flying an aircraft. Situational Awareness is a much bigger part. This is what experience teaches you. Flying single pilot may not teach you how to programme the FMS but it will teach you how to manage an aircraft in interesting conditions and teach you COMMAND judgement.
It is a very strict teacher....
I would beg to differ. THe superb hand piloting skills are still very valuable. CRM is but one part of flying an aircraft. Situational Awareness is a much bigger part. This is what experience teaches you. Flying single pilot may not teach you how to programme the FMS but it will teach you how to manage an aircraft in interesting conditions and teach you COMMAND judgement.
It is a very strict teacher....
Guest
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Studi
Not really. A crewmember with greater depth of experience is more likely to forsee a bad situation and convey his/her feelings to the other crew member. It's all down to experience which is something you can only gain with time.
Single pilot IFR is the hardest (and most rewarding, but NOT in monetary terms) flying I've ever done.
CRM is just one of many tools.
Not really. A crewmember with greater depth of experience is more likely to forsee a bad situation and convey his/her feelings to the other crew member. It's all down to experience which is something you can only gain with time.
Single pilot IFR is the hardest (and most rewarding, but NOT in monetary terms) flying I've ever done.
CRM is just one of many tools.
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Cost Savings.
- What's the reason for bringing students directly from ab-initio courses into the cockpit of a modern airliner?
1) Ab-initio pilots get paid less than DEP's.
2) Ab-initio pilots are bonded longer and generally stay with the company for their whole career (loyalty).
I think you will find that these programmes with LH, BA etc. when they run are not because inexperienced, psychometrically tested people make better pilots, but because the bean counters decide its cheaper in the long run.
MAX
1) Ab-initio pilots get paid less than DEP's.
2) Ab-initio pilots are bonded longer and generally stay with the company for their whole career (loyalty).
I think you will find that these programmes with LH, BA etc. when they run are not because inexperienced, psychometrically tested people make better pilots, but because the bean counters decide its cheaper in the long run.
MAX
As Max says its primarily a HR driven policy to recruit cadets.
a) A proportion of the cost is recouped through lower pay.
b) Give me a child until he is 7 and I will give you the man - the airline can control your training from day one.
c) You are less likely to leave the company as you can't afford to for the first 5 - 6 years and after that the loss of seniority is too much to bear.
d) Flexibility. They need some new FO's up in an unpopular base - fine, send the next batch of cadets, they ain't going to argue. Need 'em back in two years time, fine they still ain't going to argue. Try that with a direct entry pilot perhaps ten years older with a wife and two small children...
e) It shores up the empire of HR.
WWW
a) A proportion of the cost is recouped through lower pay.
b) Give me a child until he is 7 and I will give you the man - the airline can control your training from day one.
c) You are less likely to leave the company as you can't afford to for the first 5 - 6 years and after that the loss of seniority is too much to bear.
d) Flexibility. They need some new FO's up in an unpopular base - fine, send the next batch of cadets, they ain't going to argue. Need 'em back in two years time, fine they still ain't going to argue. Try that with a direct entry pilot perhaps ten years older with a wife and two small children...
e) It shores up the empire of HR.
WWW
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Studi
I can see where you are coming from, but I do recall the story of (and the details are a little hazy - please feel free to correct me) an American Airlines DC10 getting very out of shape in the cruise. The captian had been flying a pitts special the previous day and when back safely on the ground having saved the day in the DC10 attributed the recovery on the aerobatic experience he had recently experienced.
This I believe happened in the 80's and was the causal factor in the then BAE Flight Training at Prestwick sticking there hand up for 10 FFA AS202 Bravo's for unusual attitude training. This was all at the request of British Airways who had provided BAE with the contract to train their ab initio cadets very much in the same way as the LH college operates now.
I appreciate your comments but on any given day pressing the direct button, highlighting the waypoint and pressing HOLD and the inbound track is not particularly difficult. I have no idea how an Airbus or Boeing FMS works and only have a little limited knowledge of my own but Im damn sure they wont work very well having had a cup of coffee accidentally poured into them......
It is then that this SP IFR experience gained when successfully operating under high pressure kicks in and pays dividends...
The above story may well be urban legend but there is no smoke without fire
I can see where you are coming from, but I do recall the story of (and the details are a little hazy - please feel free to correct me) an American Airlines DC10 getting very out of shape in the cruise. The captian had been flying a pitts special the previous day and when back safely on the ground having saved the day in the DC10 attributed the recovery on the aerobatic experience he had recently experienced.
This I believe happened in the 80's and was the causal factor in the then BAE Flight Training at Prestwick sticking there hand up for 10 FFA AS202 Bravo's for unusual attitude training. This was all at the request of British Airways who had provided BAE with the contract to train their ab initio cadets very much in the same way as the LH college operates now.
I appreciate your comments but on any given day pressing the direct button, highlighting the waypoint and pressing HOLD and the inbound track is not particularly difficult. I have no idea how an Airbus or Boeing FMS works and only have a little limited knowledge of my own but Im damn sure they wont work very well having had a cup of coffee accidentally poured into them......
It is then that this SP IFR experience gained when successfully operating under high pressure kicks in and pays dividends...
The above story may well be urban legend but there is no smoke without fire
