What hope for low hour pilots ???
Smartcol you might be a wind up but I am going to bite anyway.
You sound like a complete pain in the arse.
I've seen the likes of you go through training. Indeed you sound a bit like one of my ex-students who is currently flipping burgers. He would turn up sometimes like he had just managed to stumble out of bed at 11 in the morning.
Hair unbrushed, no shave, tie half done up swaying from an unwahed collar above unpolished shoes. He too messed up a few exams and ended up taking a bit longer than he expected.
He just didn't get it and perhaps you didn't either.
You were being TRAINED to be a professional pilot. Thats not quite the same as being trained to fly an aeroplane. I DEMAND that my students strived to meet the same standard that I set. Be that on the ILS, in the circuit or in the briefing room. Be that doing a walkround, filling in the tech log or polishing one shoes.
It can be fun starting the briefing with a 'Who's got the shiniest shoes competition'.
Thats what a GOOD flying school/instructor will strive and help you to do - emulate the highest standards until they become your own.
Frankly I don't give a damn what you are paying. You are NOT a customer to me. You are my STUDENT. I am your INSTRUCTOR. This is AVIATION and this is how it has always been.
This is not life like you have known it at home, in school or university. There are no prizes for everyone, everybody does not have a valid point of view and self expression is not encouraged. If you cannot show enough self discipline for a year to adapt to your FTO environment then I doubt whether a lifetime of adapting to the demands of airline life will work out very well for you.
Do you think I can turn up at work without a tie? Without a shave?
Do you think your patronising arrogant ex RAF type instructors are in any way different from the Check Captains and Sim Instructors that you will meet in your first airline?
As far as FTO's go, frankly I will not change my stance on this, yes I am disheartened with the situation, but for those of you who did their flying at large school, which included self-sponsored and sponsored students, you will understand where I am coming from.
And what about all your course colleagues that got on well with the course - you sound like the course whinger to me you blames everyone else for their ills. Buy a mirror pal.
It took a lot for me to get money and get into this course, at 22, it was a massive step for me. And to be honest it didn't really go according to plan, I made a mess of some exams, and battled through, it eventually took me nearly two years.
Hey, join the club. Its big and full of people who paid and risked more than you. Training rarely goes according to plan. Why did you make a mess of some exams? I have seen some pretty 'un-academic' people achieve high first time passes through putting in the hours and then putting in some more. Or were you in the social club most nights?
During that time I felt I was treated poorly by the school, I was not allowed an opinion, I was to conform to their way of being and really I felt as if I were to fend for myself, which made me all the more determined and stick two fingers up when I did eventually pass, is that the right way to treat a paying customer ???
Well if ALL students felt that way the school would have a pretty poor reputation that I would be aware of and I am not. How can you not be allowed an opinion? People may ignore or discount it but you can have it. Life in the real world and in airline flying relies on you conforming your behaviour and on you fending for yourself. I think it likely that the two fingers you stick up at your old instructors would be swiftly returned...
The patrionising and the arrogance and the RAF military style of these places does not rub off on me,
You just didn't get it did you.
being a customer to a business as so many of you are calling it, I expect more, not to be treated like a schoolboy and have to be made to feel inadequate to ludicrous extremes such as not wearing my tie, or having not shaved, or not wearing my hair like some would like, what rubbish !!!
The marketing department are there the massage your ego. The instructors are there to turn a complete numpty into something resembling a fledgling professional pilot in 12 months. A sometimes painful reshaping. Sometimes impossible...
I am paying for this, if I want to fly in my pants I should be able to !!! And before everyone rants on about that being stupid and they are trying to teach me respect, well that is not the way to go about it.
Says a 22 year old wonder kid with very little knowledge of the ways of the world.
I think the course was difficult enough without me feeling stressed and getting grief from people who decided they did not like me because I did not brown nose their arse like the others.
Son, your instructors didn't want you to brown nose them. They don't need your admiration or respect. You needed theirs.
By god would I go the extra mile for the nice guy student who was a bit hopeless but tried hard. All instructors will.
The world owes me a job, nobody likes me, I am a customer, this school is crap barrack room lawyer types - like you appear to be - would get the standard brief and the standard sortie. If they didn't "get it" then repeat until they run out of money.
Perhaps this is why your training didn't quite run as smoothly as you had planned.
You can ponce about this bulletin board for as long as you like whining about not having a job and how horrible your school was. Just don't expect an easy time from me.
I know too many ex-students who were superb during training, who pulled theirselves up by the bootlaces to become excellent pilots who are now flipping burgers waiting for that first break.
In fact none of them are flipping burgers. Some are training as we speak to be cabin crew with Britannia. Some are working as baggage handlers with an eye to becoming a despatcher at Luton. Some are working the Ops desk in Liverpool at the local airfield charter outfit.
These are the people you are up against and if there is any justice they will get jobs ahead of you with your fly for free leanings.
Son all you have done in aviation so far is write a big cheque. You want a job - go out and earn one.
WWW
You sound like a complete pain in the arse.
I've seen the likes of you go through training. Indeed you sound a bit like one of my ex-students who is currently flipping burgers. He would turn up sometimes like he had just managed to stumble out of bed at 11 in the morning.
Hair unbrushed, no shave, tie half done up swaying from an unwahed collar above unpolished shoes. He too messed up a few exams and ended up taking a bit longer than he expected.
He just didn't get it and perhaps you didn't either.
You were being TRAINED to be a professional pilot. Thats not quite the same as being trained to fly an aeroplane. I DEMAND that my students strived to meet the same standard that I set. Be that on the ILS, in the circuit or in the briefing room. Be that doing a walkround, filling in the tech log or polishing one shoes.
It can be fun starting the briefing with a 'Who's got the shiniest shoes competition'.
Thats what a GOOD flying school/instructor will strive and help you to do - emulate the highest standards until they become your own.
Frankly I don't give a damn what you are paying. You are NOT a customer to me. You are my STUDENT. I am your INSTRUCTOR. This is AVIATION and this is how it has always been.
This is not life like you have known it at home, in school or university. There are no prizes for everyone, everybody does not have a valid point of view and self expression is not encouraged. If you cannot show enough self discipline for a year to adapt to your FTO environment then I doubt whether a lifetime of adapting to the demands of airline life will work out very well for you.
Do you think I can turn up at work without a tie? Without a shave?
Do you think your patronising arrogant ex RAF type instructors are in any way different from the Check Captains and Sim Instructors that you will meet in your first airline?
As far as FTO's go, frankly I will not change my stance on this, yes I am disheartened with the situation, but for those of you who did their flying at large school, which included self-sponsored and sponsored students, you will understand where I am coming from.
And what about all your course colleagues that got on well with the course - you sound like the course whinger to me you blames everyone else for their ills. Buy a mirror pal.
It took a lot for me to get money and get into this course, at 22, it was a massive step for me. And to be honest it didn't really go according to plan, I made a mess of some exams, and battled through, it eventually took me nearly two years.
Hey, join the club. Its big and full of people who paid and risked more than you. Training rarely goes according to plan. Why did you make a mess of some exams? I have seen some pretty 'un-academic' people achieve high first time passes through putting in the hours and then putting in some more. Or were you in the social club most nights?
During that time I felt I was treated poorly by the school, I was not allowed an opinion, I was to conform to their way of being and really I felt as if I were to fend for myself, which made me all the more determined and stick two fingers up when I did eventually pass, is that the right way to treat a paying customer ???
Well if ALL students felt that way the school would have a pretty poor reputation that I would be aware of and I am not. How can you not be allowed an opinion? People may ignore or discount it but you can have it. Life in the real world and in airline flying relies on you conforming your behaviour and on you fending for yourself. I think it likely that the two fingers you stick up at your old instructors would be swiftly returned...
The patrionising and the arrogance and the RAF military style of these places does not rub off on me,
You just didn't get it did you.
being a customer to a business as so many of you are calling it, I expect more, not to be treated like a schoolboy and have to be made to feel inadequate to ludicrous extremes such as not wearing my tie, or having not shaved, or not wearing my hair like some would like, what rubbish !!!
The marketing department are there the massage your ego. The instructors are there to turn a complete numpty into something resembling a fledgling professional pilot in 12 months. A sometimes painful reshaping. Sometimes impossible...
I am paying for this, if I want to fly in my pants I should be able to !!! And before everyone rants on about that being stupid and they are trying to teach me respect, well that is not the way to go about it.
Says a 22 year old wonder kid with very little knowledge of the ways of the world.
I think the course was difficult enough without me feeling stressed and getting grief from people who decided they did not like me because I did not brown nose their arse like the others.
Son, your instructors didn't want you to brown nose them. They don't need your admiration or respect. You needed theirs.
By god would I go the extra mile for the nice guy student who was a bit hopeless but tried hard. All instructors will.
The world owes me a job, nobody likes me, I am a customer, this school is crap barrack room lawyer types - like you appear to be - would get the standard brief and the standard sortie. If they didn't "get it" then repeat until they run out of money.
Perhaps this is why your training didn't quite run as smoothly as you had planned.
You can ponce about this bulletin board for as long as you like whining about not having a job and how horrible your school was. Just don't expect an easy time from me.
I know too many ex-students who were superb during training, who pulled theirselves up by the bootlaces to become excellent pilots who are now flipping burgers waiting for that first break.
In fact none of them are flipping burgers. Some are training as we speak to be cabin crew with Britannia. Some are working as baggage handlers with an eye to becoming a despatcher at Luton. Some are working the Ops desk in Liverpool at the local airfield charter outfit.
These are the people you are up against and if there is any justice they will get jobs ahead of you with your fly for free leanings.
Son all you have done in aviation so far is write a big cheque. You want a job - go out and earn one.
WWW
Last edited by Wee Weasley Welshman; 14th Jun 2002 at 13:58.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Next door
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said WWW.
I just hope all wannabee's who are about to take up full time training read your posting.
The standards required of a student you expected as an instructor are what I would have guessed a trainee professional pilot must live up to. I'm about to start training in Jerez soon and your post has confirmed in my mind the behavior, attitude and performance expected. It is very reassuring to hear this.
I've been through the PPL route which was a very exciting and also pleasant way to spend weekends. It was also about as intellectually demanding as reading the Sunday newspapers. I do not expect obtaining an fATPL to be anything like that. In Jerez, I hope not only to learn how to be a professional pilot but how to think and act like one too.
BTW I don't know what other contracts say but the BAE one is quite specific
about acceptable standards of appearance and behavior.
I just hope all wannabee's who are about to take up full time training read your posting.
The standards required of a student you expected as an instructor are what I would have guessed a trainee professional pilot must live up to. I'm about to start training in Jerez soon and your post has confirmed in my mind the behavior, attitude and performance expected. It is very reassuring to hear this.
I've been through the PPL route which was a very exciting and also pleasant way to spend weekends. It was also about as intellectually demanding as reading the Sunday newspapers. I do not expect obtaining an fATPL to be anything like that. In Jerez, I hope not only to learn how to be a professional pilot but how to think and act like one too.
BTW I don't know what other contracts say but the BAE one is quite specific
about acceptable standards of appearance and behavior.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Dorset, UK
Posts: 619
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW What can I say, other than a VERY LOUD
HEAR HEAR!
D McQuire As far as I am aware, most of the large FTO's such as BAE, OATS & CABAIR, expect acceptable standards of appearance and behaviour. This usually includes wearing the uniform, provided by the FTO, (or the airlines' uniform, for those now rare sponsored students).
Despite smartcol's views, most FTO's & their instructors, are trying to ensure that students are as "Airline Ready" as possible, & not just in possession of an fATPL.
Surely this should include instilling sufficient SELF-discipline into students, by requiring them to turn up, on time, in uniform, clean & tidy, & shaved.
Will an airline expect any less?
HEAR HEAR!
D McQuire As far as I am aware, most of the large FTO's such as BAE, OATS & CABAIR, expect acceptable standards of appearance and behaviour. This usually includes wearing the uniform, provided by the FTO, (or the airlines' uniform, for those now rare sponsored students).
Despite smartcol's views, most FTO's & their instructors, are trying to ensure that students are as "Airline Ready" as possible, & not just in possession of an fATPL.
Surely this should include instilling sufficient SELF-discipline into students, by requiring them to turn up, on time, in uniform, clean & tidy, & shaved.
Will an airline expect any less?
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just for the next few lines I’m going to stick up for smartcol. I came through the modular route with one of the largest if not the largest FTO’s, finishing my training ahead of schedule and getting first time passes in everything. I’m slightly older but still the right side of thirty and have led a disciplined life, my shoes are shiny and I take great pride in my appearance. I can’t get a job, so now I‘m doing the cabin crew thing and I hate every minute of it (apart from the nightstops). Pax and management treat me like a child with no brain, so I bite my tongue, keep my ear to the ground and wait for that first break. One day I’ll show them what I can do. I now know that the company I work for have no intention of putting me at the front of one of their shiny jets, likewise the other three chaps with frozen ATPL’s within the company in Ops and other departments will all stay on the ground.
During the last 18 months in the search for a job I have been through every emotion going, highs, lows and every now and then you feel bitter and want to have a good whinge (from what seen working in a large airline that wont change for the rest of your career). I think smartcols on a low and he’s entitled to be. Feel sorry for yourself for a while, because no-one else will no matter what they say, but make sure you come out of your low on a high and even more determined than ever. Oh and by the way no other wannabe will help you get a job, we’re all too busy trying to get one ourselves. Once I’m sorted I’ll help everyone that I can, but not before.
I too feel let down by my FTO. Of course I didn’t expect them to get me a job, that wasn’t in the contract, however I feel that they should have been more customer orientated. At the end of the day I am a customer and I was just treated like a commodity. In addition a little after sales care would have been appreciated, it could even have been to their advantage from a marketing point of view, many people ask for recommendations on a school and I would not recommend mine. If I may be brave enough to disagree with WWW things may always have been this way, it does not mean in this modern age that they are right. Perhaps things will change now if the schools need to work harder to attract custom.
Anyway smartcol keep your chin up and I hope that you and every wannabe out there gets a job soon…….just after me.
During the last 18 months in the search for a job I have been through every emotion going, highs, lows and every now and then you feel bitter and want to have a good whinge (from what seen working in a large airline that wont change for the rest of your career). I think smartcols on a low and he’s entitled to be. Feel sorry for yourself for a while, because no-one else will no matter what they say, but make sure you come out of your low on a high and even more determined than ever. Oh and by the way no other wannabe will help you get a job, we’re all too busy trying to get one ourselves. Once I’m sorted I’ll help everyone that I can, but not before.
I too feel let down by my FTO. Of course I didn’t expect them to get me a job, that wasn’t in the contract, however I feel that they should have been more customer orientated. At the end of the day I am a customer and I was just treated like a commodity. In addition a little after sales care would have been appreciated, it could even have been to their advantage from a marketing point of view, many people ask for recommendations on a school and I would not recommend mine. If I may be brave enough to disagree with WWW things may always have been this way, it does not mean in this modern age that they are right. Perhaps things will change now if the schools need to work harder to attract custom.
Anyway smartcol keep your chin up and I hope that you and every wannabe out there gets a job soon…….just after me.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW
Well said that man.
Last year offered 172 job to 2 guys fresh out of OATS. Crap money(£120-150pw) but 500 hrs pa plus multi IR renewal after 6 months.
Guess what? They turned it down because they believed that the airlines would be knocking their doors down within weeks! WRONG
Neither has flown more than a couple of hours since. The guy who we took on now has 600hrsTT and a COMMERCIAL reference and is way ahead of them due to hard work, commitment and FLEXIBILITY.
As for this posts originator. I prefer to sit by someone who looks the part. If your appearance is sloppy there is reasonable cause to believe that your airmanship is too. Have a shower, get a haircut and a shave, or get the hell out of this business. This is no job for a slap happy character like you.
No time for wingers. Get over it, there are few of us that havent been through the mill.
Well said that man.
Last year offered 172 job to 2 guys fresh out of OATS. Crap money(£120-150pw) but 500 hrs pa plus multi IR renewal after 6 months.
Guess what? They turned it down because they believed that the airlines would be knocking their doors down within weeks! WRONG
Neither has flown more than a couple of hours since. The guy who we took on now has 600hrsTT and a COMMERCIAL reference and is way ahead of them due to hard work, commitment and FLEXIBILITY.
As for this posts originator. I prefer to sit by someone who looks the part. If your appearance is sloppy there is reasonable cause to believe that your airmanship is too. Have a shower, get a haircut and a shave, or get the hell out of this business. This is no job for a slap happy character like you.
No time for wingers. Get over it, there are few of us that havent been through the mill.
Last edited by Busterplane; 14th Jun 2002 at 16:52.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: europe
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW take a chill pill my friend
professional pilots dont let their emotions run so high for such minor issues. Anyway, all wannabes are pretty much ****ed up by the JAR system. Doz not matter if their flipping burgers or not.
professional pilots dont let their emotions run so high for such minor issues. Anyway, all wannabes are pretty much ****ed up by the JAR system. Doz not matter if their flipping burgers or not.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmm? Why is it whenever I browse this particular forum it is always full of posts seeking reassurance and sympathy??
Gentlemen, and ladies (if applicable), you, and you alone are ultimately the creators of your own destinys. Fortune may be in your favour or it may go against you, but it is up to you to make the key decisions that will hopefully maximise your full potential and lead to the results you desire.
Smartcol, I am absolutely amazed that you seem to be so childish and naive.
Flypuppy, you paid your money, got your licence and now there are no jobs available. Thats a fact of life at the moment I'm afraid. Get used to it, I'm not offering sympathy to any grown adult with half a brain and in control of his own bowel movements. The only crumbs of comfort I can think of is the fact that everybody started somewhere (i.e low TT), pilots don't go on forever and one day there will be jobs available. Its inevitable, but maybe not next year or even five years from now. Who knows? In the late 1980's pilots were snapped up by half decent airlines the day after their CPL/IR was issued. Seems like fantasy land now but yes, it really did happen!
Please, please, please can we have some creative posts and useful information on here and not this continual " I worked really, really hard, and took two years of sh*t from my FTO, and paid them many thousands of pounds of borrowed money and now all I can do is stack shelves at Tesco's"!!
Did you guys not have any form of contingency plan? (I thought good aviators always had a backup plan) Were you really so stupidly blinded by the "glamour" and "glory" of a professional flying career that you didn't contemplate this scenario before you started?
We all make choices and must all live with the consequences. I'm a flight engineer, my days in this post are surely numbered, I'm in the same boat as you in so far as I have my pilots licence but with no firm job lined up. But am I whinging about how things are so unfair? NO.
Gentlemen, and ladies (if applicable), you, and you alone are ultimately the creators of your own destinys. Fortune may be in your favour or it may go against you, but it is up to you to make the key decisions that will hopefully maximise your full potential and lead to the results you desire.
Smartcol, I am absolutely amazed that you seem to be so childish and naive.
Flypuppy, you paid your money, got your licence and now there are no jobs available. Thats a fact of life at the moment I'm afraid. Get used to it, I'm not offering sympathy to any grown adult with half a brain and in control of his own bowel movements. The only crumbs of comfort I can think of is the fact that everybody started somewhere (i.e low TT), pilots don't go on forever and one day there will be jobs available. Its inevitable, but maybe not next year or even five years from now. Who knows? In the late 1980's pilots were snapped up by half decent airlines the day after their CPL/IR was issued. Seems like fantasy land now but yes, it really did happen!
Please, please, please can we have some creative posts and useful information on here and not this continual " I worked really, really hard, and took two years of sh*t from my FTO, and paid them many thousands of pounds of borrowed money and now all I can do is stack shelves at Tesco's"!!
Did you guys not have any form of contingency plan? (I thought good aviators always had a backup plan) Were you really so stupidly blinded by the "glamour" and "glory" of a professional flying career that you didn't contemplate this scenario before you started?
We all make choices and must all live with the consequences. I'm a flight engineer, my days in this post are surely numbered, I'm in the same boat as you in so far as I have my pilots licence but with no firm job lined up. But am I whinging about how things are so unfair? NO.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The MCC - Lords
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Umbrage again
I can not beleive what I read here in these posts sometimes.
WWW - you should be ashamed of yourself!! I can not beleive that someone whoshould have been instilling all the good qualities of pilots into theirstudents should now be sitting here and slagging them off!!!!
I can sympathise with the post originator. Sure the FTO does not owe them a job but it would help them with getting further students if they had an after graduation service for students.
Name me one university that does not have this service!!!
It makes sense for a business relying on recommendations for it's customers!!!!
As for WWW's post - I must have read this post a different way as I thought the poor bloke was just looking for ideas not a slagging for being a waster. All this crapabout shiny shoes just pissesme off as any airline that wants you just for your shiny shoes should ****** off. I Agree that people should be punctual and smart but let's not be anal here. WWW are you suggesting from the one post that you know that the originator was lazy etc... That is way off line and a bit bitter and cynical.
I am not suprised that someone is writing in as he does as it does get to a point where one begins to ask yourself what is the point when there are NO jobs in aviation. I know several **** hot pilots who have nothing after several years trying. Perhaps it should be the responsibility of the FTO's to vet you before accepting your money to make sure you could get a job.
Why can't everyone in this forum just accept the stories you hear and instead of slagging them off - leave them alone - the stories will be replaced soon enough!!!
This is a forum to express your happiness or displeasure- not a place to get slated or to be abused.
Why doesn't everyone grow up! 
WWW - you should be ashamed of yourself!! I can not beleive that someone whoshould have been instilling all the good qualities of pilots into theirstudents should now be sitting here and slagging them off!!!!
I can sympathise with the post originator. Sure the FTO does not owe them a job but it would help them with getting further students if they had an after graduation service for students.
Name me one university that does not have this service!!!
It makes sense for a business relying on recommendations for it's customers!!!!
As for WWW's post - I must have read this post a different way as I thought the poor bloke was just looking for ideas not a slagging for being a waster. All this crapabout shiny shoes just pissesme off as any airline that wants you just for your shiny shoes should ****** off. I Agree that people should be punctual and smart but let's not be anal here. WWW are you suggesting from the one post that you know that the originator was lazy etc... That is way off line and a bit bitter and cynical.
I am not suprised that someone is writing in as he does as it does get to a point where one begins to ask yourself what is the point when there are NO jobs in aviation. I know several **** hot pilots who have nothing after several years trying. Perhaps it should be the responsibility of the FTO's to vet you before accepting your money to make sure you could get a job.
Why can't everyone in this forum just accept the stories you hear and instead of slagging them off - leave them alone - the stories will be replaced soon enough!!!
This is a forum to express your happiness or displeasure- not a place to get slated or to be abused.
Why doesn't everyone grow up!
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting off topic now, and the usual personal attacks creeping in re viewpoints. Let's remember the original thread was around the subject of Low Time Pilot's - What chance?
Possible explorations are How will the situation evolve? Will the cyclical nature of the industry that has been much discussed reassert itself? Where will the gaps for capable people be?
This forum is here for us to help eachother.
Regards,
Laurie
PS Can we not get rid of the icon? Every time I see it, it makes me think of three year olds having tantrums getting dragged screaming round the supermarket, their legs trailing lifelessly on the floor!
Possible explorations are How will the situation evolve? Will the cyclical nature of the industry that has been much discussed reassert itself? Where will the gaps for capable people be?
This forum is here for us to help eachother.
Regards,
Laurie
PS Can we not get rid of the
icon? Every time I see it, it makes me think of three year olds having tantrums getting dragged screaming round the supermarket, their legs trailing lifelessly on the floor!
Mister Geezer - are you sure? I spent 5 years in the Air Cadets and was Sqn Drill Instructor during that time... what I don't know about bulling a pair of shoes ain't worth knowing... 
Cricketer. Called it how I saw it.
Persoanally I don't think this forums prime purpose is to provide morale support for Wannabes. Its a role but not a primary one. If this thread influences for the better the next Wannabe to sign up to a CPL course then that is A Good Thing.
I cannot stand people moaning about how flying schools don't help them post graduation. It really gets my goat.
Before you sign up you trek around each college and compare prices and query every pound which you grudgingly hand over. You signed a training contract that did not contain any promised of career support post graduation. Then when you don't get what you haven't paid for you bitch about it!
You can have all the support you like IF you are willing to pay for it. Monthly updates on recruiting rumours. Updated lists of recruitment names and addresses. A career counsellor on the other end of the telephone to whom you can address questions. All this can be yours. For a couple of grand on top of the course price. But then of course you would have chosen the school down the road that was a couple of grand cheaper. You can't have it both ways.
Just joing Balpa for £26 and the IPA for something like £40 plus subscribe to Co-Pilot for about £80 and you have a complete comprehensive post graduate support service. Oh and of course - PPRuNe.
I don't mind criticism of schools. I welcome it. Lets hear about woeful accomodation, overcrowded classrooms, lack of aircraft availability. Crying Boo Hoo the instructors were arrogant and nobody was nice to me just does not cut the mustard. It reflects more poorly on the poster than the school in fact.
WWW
Cricketer. Called it how I saw it.
Persoanally I don't think this forums prime purpose is to provide morale support for Wannabes. Its a role but not a primary one. If this thread influences for the better the next Wannabe to sign up to a CPL course then that is A Good Thing.
I cannot stand people moaning about how flying schools don't help them post graduation. It really gets my goat.
Before you sign up you trek around each college and compare prices and query every pound which you grudgingly hand over. You signed a training contract that did not contain any promised of career support post graduation. Then when you don't get what you haven't paid for you bitch about it!
You can have all the support you like IF you are willing to pay for it. Monthly updates on recruiting rumours. Updated lists of recruitment names and addresses. A career counsellor on the other end of the telephone to whom you can address questions. All this can be yours. For a couple of grand on top of the course price. But then of course you would have chosen the school down the road that was a couple of grand cheaper. You can't have it both ways.
Just joing Balpa for £26 and the IPA for something like £40 plus subscribe to Co-Pilot for about £80 and you have a complete comprehensive post graduate support service. Oh and of course - PPRuNe.
I don't mind criticism of schools. I welcome it. Lets hear about woeful accomodation, overcrowded classrooms, lack of aircraft availability. Crying Boo Hoo the instructors were arrogant and nobody was nice to me just does not cut the mustard. It reflects more poorly on the poster than the school in fact.
WWW
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can just imagine WWW hitting the keys rather hard and muttering under his breath whilst the blood pressure rises.
Most of the comments rang of a very good, experienced instructor who can offer that little bit more to the "I've got £50,000 and I damn well expect an airline job before my b@!!ocks drop" brigade.
All would be professionals come out of some form of higher education having been told that they are the elite and with a "people should give me what I want or I'll scream and scream until I'm sick" attitude. God knows I've seen enough of these bum fluff types thinking the world owes them something.
However.............
At the risk of moving away from the original purpose of this thread (and putting a huge target on my chest for WWW to aim nuclear arsenal at), I've just one doubt.
"You're not a Customer, you're my student and I'm your in instructor" or words to that effect.
I seem to be constantly coming across instructor attitudes that they are just in a school to instruct and getting new students or retaining existing ones is someone elses problem. Even those that seem to get involved in other aspects of an FTO's business, bringing great experience and new perspectives to it, revert to type if times are bad.
I'm sure WWW banged out the quote in a fit of rage (understandable really) so I don't want to be seen as having a real go at you.
Just wondering, as there are a lot of Instructors looking at this thread, how you all feel about the fact that in a declining market and a low profit business, together with a lack of instructor jobs, how you all feel about the importance of treating the customer as King (even the ars@@oles like Mr Underpants) and helping out within your FTO to make it a better, busier, and more profitable for all place to be. Maybe, instructors could then get paid what they deserve and not the peanuts that the market dictates.
Most of the comments rang of a very good, experienced instructor who can offer that little bit more to the "I've got £50,000 and I damn well expect an airline job before my b@!!ocks drop" brigade.
All would be professionals come out of some form of higher education having been told that they are the elite and with a "people should give me what I want or I'll scream and scream until I'm sick" attitude. God knows I've seen enough of these bum fluff types thinking the world owes them something.
However.............
At the risk of moving away from the original purpose of this thread (and putting a huge target on my chest for WWW to aim nuclear arsenal at), I've just one doubt.
"You're not a Customer, you're my student and I'm your in instructor" or words to that effect.
I seem to be constantly coming across instructor attitudes that they are just in a school to instruct and getting new students or retaining existing ones is someone elses problem. Even those that seem to get involved in other aspects of an FTO's business, bringing great experience and new perspectives to it, revert to type if times are bad.
I'm sure WWW banged out the quote in a fit of rage (understandable really) so I don't want to be seen as having a real go at you.
Just wondering, as there are a lot of Instructors looking at this thread, how you all feel about the fact that in a declining market and a low profit business, together with a lack of instructor jobs, how you all feel about the importance of treating the customer as King (even the ars@@oles like Mr Underpants) and helping out within your FTO to make it a better, busier, and more profitable for all place to be. Maybe, instructors could then get paid what they deserve and not the peanuts that the market dictates.
No. Instructors generally stand apart from the management and the rest of the company.
Its why you always read comments about School XYZ being run by spineless coniving idiots and demons in marketing whilst the instructors were a fantastic bunch of all round good guys.
When you enter the instructor-student relationship a lot of things 'fall away'. It matters not if your are airline sponsored or self. If you are here for a module or for an entire course. It matters not whether you are a groundshool star or dunce. Rich, poor, old or young. Daddy might be Fleet Manager for Big Airways or run the local chippy. When you become my student none of that matters. You will be judged on two things. Performance and Effort.
And your Instructor will JUDGE you. You will be debriefed most frankly. Professional flying instructors will resist any pressure to filter their feedback though any kind of Customer Relations spin.
We ain't there to blow sunshine up you.
Its no use being treated with kid gloves all the way through training. When you hit the nowhere-to-hide pressure of your first type conversion course and then the 40 odd line training sectors where every finicky error is jumped upon you wil be ill prepared.
I'm not saying FI's shoud aim to be antagonistic. Far from it. I had some great fun with most of my students.
smartcol - you've gone quiet. Speak up for yourself man.
WWW
Its why you always read comments about School XYZ being run by spineless coniving idiots and demons in marketing whilst the instructors were a fantastic bunch of all round good guys.
When you enter the instructor-student relationship a lot of things 'fall away'. It matters not if your are airline sponsored or self. If you are here for a module or for an entire course. It matters not whether you are a groundshool star or dunce. Rich, poor, old or young. Daddy might be Fleet Manager for Big Airways or run the local chippy. When you become my student none of that matters. You will be judged on two things. Performance and Effort.
And your Instructor will JUDGE you. You will be debriefed most frankly. Professional flying instructors will resist any pressure to filter their feedback though any kind of Customer Relations spin.
We ain't there to blow sunshine up you.
Its no use being treated with kid gloves all the way through training. When you hit the nowhere-to-hide pressure of your first type conversion course and then the 40 odd line training sectors where every finicky error is jumped upon you wil be ill prepared.
I'm not saying FI's shoud aim to be antagonistic. Far from it. I had some great fun with most of my students.
smartcol - you've gone quiet. Speak up for yourself man.
WWW
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
Join Date: Nov 1997
Location: Scotland usually, and often other parts of Europe
Age: 55
Posts: 826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
smartcol - you've gone quiet. Speak up for yourself man.
Maybe I dont deserve to share the same webspace as a wunderkind like you WWW, and I am fairly certain there will be a trail of posts after this one giving you another round of applause. I said in my first posting on this thread that I am sometimes disappointed in the reactions given by people including moderators. You have illustrated my point perfectly.
I didn't come here looking for sympathy, but this thread could have been a useful source of information for what low hour pilots could do to keep themselves busy, while waiting for things to improve. Instead we get a moderator attacking someone.
I spent 5 years in the Air Cadets and was Sqn Drill Instructor during that time... what I don't know about bulling a pair of shoes ain't worth knowing...
I wont bother posting anything further on this forum. Goodbye.
Flypuppy, don't dissapear. You've been around a long time.
I think this thread is useful to pre-training Wannabes as it illustrates the issue of attitudes to training. There is often a struggle between student as paying customer and student as apprentice.
This thread perhaps shows the differing perspectives.
Persoanally I don't actually give a stuff about smartcol and his career or his training history. As a complete stranger I am ambivalent to his plight but naturally I wish him luck.
My postings are often designed to provoke debate.
Just 'cause I am a Moderator doesn't stop people from telling me I am being a prat or shooting down my comments.
I stand by what I said though. Within the narrow limits of what I know about smartcol from his posts - he reminded me very much of students I have seen who had the wrong attitude to training and as a result did not do so well and did not enjoy the experience.
Cheers,
WWW
I think this thread is useful to pre-training Wannabes as it illustrates the issue of attitudes to training. There is often a struggle between student as paying customer and student as apprentice.
This thread perhaps shows the differing perspectives.
Persoanally I don't actually give a stuff about smartcol and his career or his training history. As a complete stranger I am ambivalent to his plight but naturally I wish him luck.
My postings are often designed to provoke debate.
Just 'cause I am a Moderator doesn't stop people from telling me I am being a prat or shooting down my comments.
I stand by what I said though. Within the narrow limits of what I know about smartcol from his posts - he reminded me very much of students I have seen who had the wrong attitude to training and as a result did not do so well and did not enjoy the experience.
Cheers,
WWW
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: United Kingdon
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I've got £50,000 and I damn well expect an airline job before my b@!!ocks drop" brigade.
Mr Smartcol
Please feel free to read much much more into the following statement:
There are some students for which you round the airborne time down and there are some students for which you round it up.
Ask yourself into which bracket you fall.
An instructors job is to breif - fly - debreif - record.
You can work to the above or you can try to give added value and better value for money. It depends on the students attitude.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WWW.
You certainly do have a way with words!! If you're gonna provoke debate like that you will upset a few people at the same time, especially the "Coniving idiot" who gave you your instructors job (and has to run one of the most difficult types of business there is to be in) but that debate should be perhaps for another thread in another forum.
Personally, I'm all for it. With the recent notice to stop the liablous attacks naming individuals and companies, good debating is back in vogue and long may it continue. I'm starting to enjoy pprune again.
I always had instructors with loud mouths and shiny shoes, who call a spade a shovel and don't mince words. I think I'm a better pilot now for it.
So as far as the student goes, at any level, a reality check if painful to take is still a useful thing to get.
I don't think a debrief after an awful flight is the place for customer spin and you're attitude in that respect is IMHO quite right. All I'm saying is that I did detect a little "holyer than thou" from you which borders on the same kind of "I want an airline job and you damn well better help me for nothing" approach that you have been firing at.
I hope that your last post shows people that you're use of the written language isn't a true reflection of your attitute to those who pay you and those you teach. As long as we all understand that, especially the instigator of this thread, then lets keep it going.
Perhaps the new boy was just trying to get you to bite or perhaps thats a genuine attitude. Either way, I hope he doesn't disappear from these pages and that he gives as good as he gets.
I'll follow this one with interest...................
You certainly do have a way with words!! If you're gonna provoke debate like that you will upset a few people at the same time, especially the "Coniving idiot" who gave you your instructors job (and has to run one of the most difficult types of business there is to be in) but that debate should be perhaps for another thread in another forum.
Personally, I'm all for it. With the recent notice to stop the liablous attacks naming individuals and companies, good debating is back in vogue and long may it continue. I'm starting to enjoy pprune again.
I always had instructors with loud mouths and shiny shoes, who call a spade a shovel and don't mince words. I think I'm a better pilot now for it.
So as far as the student goes, at any level, a reality check if painful to take is still a useful thing to get.
I don't think a debrief after an awful flight is the place for customer spin and you're attitude in that respect is IMHO quite right. All I'm saying is that I did detect a little "holyer than thou" from you which borders on the same kind of "I want an airline job and you damn well better help me for nothing" approach that you have been firing at.
I hope that your last post shows people that you're use of the written language isn't a true reflection of your attitute to those who pay you and those you teach. As long as we all understand that, especially the instigator of this thread, then lets keep it going.
Perhaps the new boy was just trying to get you to bite or perhaps thats a genuine attitude. Either way, I hope he doesn't disappear from these pages and that he gives as good as he gets.
I'll follow this one with interest...................
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right.
Every last one of you is a conniving, ungrateful, spineless, scruffy, unpolished, spoiled, argumentative GIT! And what's more, you're now poor! As you now can't afford to bribe us enough to tell you you're a wonderful pilot and your mother loves you really, and we therefore can't afford to bribe the airline beancounters enough to employ you (and, believe me, it takes a lot of money to do that), I think you should all sod off and become plumbers.
I think my friend WWW might have a training deal that would interest you......... Oh, by the way - he might not give you any help looking for a job afterwards.
Just thought I'd let you know.
Every last one of you is a conniving, ungrateful, spineless, scruffy, unpolished, spoiled, argumentative GIT! And what's more, you're now poor! As you now can't afford to bribe us enough to tell you you're a wonderful pilot and your mother loves you really, and we therefore can't afford to bribe the airline beancounters enough to employ you (and, believe me, it takes a lot of money to do that), I think you should all sod off and become plumbers.
I think my friend WWW might have a training deal that would interest you......... Oh, by the way - he might not give you any help looking for a job afterwards.
Just thought I'd let you know.
