What hope for low hour pilots ???
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WWW
The tone and language in your posts says it all. Let's just review a few of the more choice phrases.
"You sound like a complete pain in the arse..."
"I've seen the likes of you..."
"He just didn't get it and perhaps you don't either..."
"I DEMAND that my students..."
"Frankly, I don't give a damn..."
"You are my STUDENT. I am your INSTRUCTOR..."
"...you sound like the course whinger..."
"Buy a mirror pal..."
"Why did you make a mess of some exams? ...were you in the social club most nights?"
"Says a 22yr old wonder kid with very little knowledge of the ways of the world..."
"Son..."
"You can ponce about..."
"...if there is any justice they will get jobs ahead of you..."
"Son..." (again)
You criticise other contributors for making assumptions about you and then commit the same faux pas with the '22 yr old wonder kid' remark. You have no idea what smartcol does or doesn't know about the world and neither do I.
These quotes speak volumes. If you can read these and still refuse smartcol an apology you only serve to compound the rudeness and arrogance you have so far demonstrated toward someone who just needed a bit of a morale boost.
I expected better from a moderator.
<Still not edited for spelling>
The tone and language in your posts says it all. Let's just review a few of the more choice phrases.
"You sound like a complete pain in the arse..."
"I've seen the likes of you..."
"He just didn't get it and perhaps you don't either..."
"I DEMAND that my students..."
"Frankly, I don't give a damn..."
"You are my STUDENT. I am your INSTRUCTOR..."
"...you sound like the course whinger..."
"Buy a mirror pal..."
"Why did you make a mess of some exams? ...were you in the social club most nights?"
"Says a 22yr old wonder kid with very little knowledge of the ways of the world..."
"Son..."
"You can ponce about..."
"...if there is any justice they will get jobs ahead of you..."
"Son..." (again)
You criticise other contributors for making assumptions about you and then commit the same faux pas with the '22 yr old wonder kid' remark. You have no idea what smartcol does or doesn't know about the world and neither do I.
These quotes speak volumes. If you can read these and still refuse smartcol an apology you only serve to compound the rudeness and arrogance you have so far demonstrated toward someone who just needed a bit of a morale boost.
I expected better from a moderator.
<Still not edited for spelling>
Last edited by Flintstone; 19th Jun 2002 at 08:46.
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Whether you lean towards or away from the arguments put forward by various posters on this topic really doesn't matter. There have been some views and concerns aired which are of importance to the pilot in training or the prospective pilot in training. The more views that get aired the more informed we all become.
I don't believe that posters should need to censor their posts to avoid offending other posters when they are meerly expressing an opinion. Certainly no one should have to apologise for stating an opinion.
I don't believe that posters should need to censor their posts to avoid offending other posters when they are meerly expressing an opinion. Certainly no one should have to apologise for stating an opinion.
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Grivation
I am not talking about opinions. It is the manner in which WWW puts his across that cause offence.
I've been around here long enough to remember when he was looking for a job. He got one, I believe, largely due to contacts made through this forum and it is this that makes his attitude toward smartcol all the harder to accept.
I am not talking about opinions. It is the manner in which WWW puts his across that cause offence.
I've been around here long enough to remember when he was looking for a job. He got one, I believe, largely due to contacts made through this forum and it is this that makes his attitude toward smartcol all the harder to accept.
This thread usefully illuminates the dangers involved in Integrated students moaning about their schools and their lack of a job.
Their moans may be valid - who knows. But for every sympathetic ear there is at least another that is quietly thinking dark thoughts about the moaner.
All that got my goat was this ex-student complaining that his arrogant ex-RAF instructors picked on him for not shaving/ironing/haircut etc. He then asserted that he would be sticking two fingers up at his FTO.
Now I have seen and had students JUST like this. They cannot reconcile spending £50,000 without being treated like someone who has just bought a Mercedes. They often blame everyone but themselves for their own shortcomings. They are usually regarded as the course whinger behind their backs.
Instructors think them to be as I so movingly put it - a pain in the arse.
Hence I adopted the hectoring tone that I did.
I am a pretty chilled instructor to 99% of students. If you can't have at least a couple of giggles during a flight then I consider that a failure.
Flintstone - I have been a breathless Wannabe, a Knowledgable Wannabe, a Self Improving Wannabe, A PPL Instructor, A IR Instructor, an airline FO during the past 5 years of PPRuNe'ing. As my experiences have evolved so have my opinions. Some who have read the longest have the biggest problem with this. I have ALWAYS had a very individual style and tone to my posts which did not change when I became Moderator.
This forum would be very dull if it were crammed full of nothing but back slapping words of encouragement from fellow Wannabes and a perrenial questions about BA cadet recruitment plans...
Cheers
WWW
Their moans may be valid - who knows. But for every sympathetic ear there is at least another that is quietly thinking dark thoughts about the moaner.
All that got my goat was this ex-student complaining that his arrogant ex-RAF instructors picked on him for not shaving/ironing/haircut etc. He then asserted that he would be sticking two fingers up at his FTO.
Now I have seen and had students JUST like this. They cannot reconcile spending £50,000 without being treated like someone who has just bought a Mercedes. They often blame everyone but themselves for their own shortcomings. They are usually regarded as the course whinger behind their backs.
Instructors think them to be as I so movingly put it - a pain in the arse.
Hence I adopted the hectoring tone that I did.
I am a pretty chilled instructor to 99% of students. If you can't have at least a couple of giggles during a flight then I consider that a failure.
Flintstone - I have been a breathless Wannabe, a Knowledgable Wannabe, a Self Improving Wannabe, A PPL Instructor, A IR Instructor, an airline FO during the past 5 years of PPRuNe'ing. As my experiences have evolved so have my opinions. Some who have read the longest have the biggest problem with this. I have ALWAYS had a very individual style and tone to my posts which did not change when I became Moderator.
This forum would be very dull if it were crammed full of nothing but back slapping words of encouragement from fellow Wannabes and a perrenial questions about BA cadet recruitment plans...
Cheers
WWW
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Every village needs an idiot as does every message board, it would be so much more boring without them 
As Capt PPRune says
And scroggs goes on to say
So who moderates the moderators???
Anyway, nobody has the right to an opinion on a private bulletin board.
Smartcol (and any other interested wannabes who are legitimately worried about paying back all that cash). I was out boozing last night with a furloughed FO from a major US airline. He has just been recalled, and I asked him when he thought the airline would be hiring new people from the regionals. He said 12 months. So anecdotally that is how long you might expect to wait for the conveyor belt to start running again, if you worked in the US. You need to get the same info for the UK. A shame nobody on this thread who knows a lot more than I do about the UK market has bothered to be nice to you and give you their "off the record" best guess.
As Capt PPRune says
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but if you cannot argue a point without resorting to personal attacks and abuse then don't bother posting because all you will be doing is increasing workload of the moderators, admins and myself which will eventually lead to a banning and a deletion of your handywork.
By descending into personal abuse you have lost the argument and taken the bait. It takes a mature and intelligent person to be able to just ignore a comment they don't like and by doing so, do more to show that the original comment that caused the anger is indeed just a reflection of the posters ignorance in the first place
By descending into personal abuse you have lost the argument and taken the bait. It takes a mature and intelligent person to be able to just ignore a comment they don't like and by doing so, do more to show that the original comment that caused the anger is indeed just a reflection of the posters ignorance in the first place
Your posts will be deleted, and you may face a ban from the site. The same applies if you let your temper get the better of you and post potentially libellous, or in any other way offensive, information about any individual or organisation
Anyway, nobody has the right to an opinion on a private bulletin board.
Smartcol (and any other interested wannabes who are legitimately worried about paying back all that cash). I was out boozing last night with a furloughed FO from a major US airline. He has just been recalled, and I asked him when he thought the airline would be hiring new people from the regionals. He said 12 months. So anecdotally that is how long you might expect to wait for the conveyor belt to start running again, if you worked in the US. You need to get the same info for the UK. A shame nobody on this thread who knows a lot more than I do about the UK market has bothered to be nice to you and give you their "off the record" best guess.
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WWW slagging.
I, for one, have found the diminutive Welshman's posts to be both useful and accurate over the last three years. In fact, it was about three years ago that he responded in a very balanced fashion to a "should I give it all up" kind of question that now has me in the right hand seat of a turbo prop.
Furthermore, having been through Oxford, I easily recognise the student types that www is describing.
What I feel may have gone wrong here is something that most internet users should by now recognise:
1. It is human nature to very quickly judge or categorise a person within a few seconds of a first encounter.
2. Many people have poor writing skills, and as such portray ideas, character or inflexions that were not intended.
We then apply 1. to incorrectly judge based on 2. And so it goes downhill. Being aware of these two traits will help avoid this kind of argument - weeding out core facts and ignoring your "feelings" works well. Pilots should be good at this.
I notice that things got bad so quickly that my comment to smartcol on page 2 that I managed to get a job this April (with less than 200 hours in my book) went without comment. I don't know many low hour pilots who have got proper jobs since September, but I hoped I could offer some advice that actually worked for me (and I have heard lots of "advice" that was less than useless). Smartcol - if it's in you, you'll get there.
So, in the words of a certain Mr Enfield.. "Calm down!"
Stu
PS I was the student who always turned up early, learned hard, flew Sundays but (when appropriate) had a laugh and took the ****, mostly out of my instructor of course...
I, for one, have found the diminutive Welshman's posts to be both useful and accurate over the last three years. In fact, it was about three years ago that he responded in a very balanced fashion to a "should I give it all up" kind of question that now has me in the right hand seat of a turbo prop.
Furthermore, having been through Oxford, I easily recognise the student types that www is describing.
What I feel may have gone wrong here is something that most internet users should by now recognise:
1. It is human nature to very quickly judge or categorise a person within a few seconds of a first encounter.
2. Many people have poor writing skills, and as such portray ideas, character or inflexions that were not intended.
We then apply 1. to incorrectly judge based on 2. And so it goes downhill. Being aware of these two traits will help avoid this kind of argument - weeding out core facts and ignoring your "feelings" works well. Pilots should be good at this.
I notice that things got bad so quickly that my comment to smartcol on page 2 that I managed to get a job this April (with less than 200 hours in my book) went without comment. I don't know many low hour pilots who have got proper jobs since September, but I hoped I could offer some advice that actually worked for me (and I have heard lots of "advice" that was less than useless). Smartcol - if it's in you, you'll get there.
So, in the words of a certain Mr Enfield.. "Calm down!"
Stu
PS I was the student who always turned up early, learned hard, flew Sundays but (when appropriate) had a laugh and took the ****, mostly out of my instructor of course...
stu - congrats on your well deserved success. Email me a debrief - I would be interested.
slim_slag thanks for the info. I will admonish myslef shortly
WWW
slim_slag thanks for the info. I will admonish myslef shortly
WWW
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Well I am going to say sorry to smartcol and flypuppy, I may have seemed harsh with my remarks I am not sure, there was certainly no malice intended. But I still do believe discussions whether positive or negative are of a constructive nature to any wannabe.
Good luck all.
Good luck all.
Last edited by FRIDAY; 19th Jun 2002 at 23:48.
WWW quote, ' I have seen and HAD ! students like this !'Thread Starter
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The last say ...
Well, after my original posting, I have to say that I am no further forward, it is true as some have said that I was having one of those when is this going to happen days, as we all do, when I wrote the post, and I do admit to putting down all my moans.
It is common nature for someone not to blame themselves for the situation, you are always looking to blame others, that is the way of life, if you can put your hand up and say it was your fault or that you havent done enough, then you will never be the person you could be.
I think the responses I received from some were very unfair, and the fact that it ended up almost in a slagging match between some parties, shows me that they are not worth considering.
I think that having done my training and feeling a little despondant, and really letting it out on this forum and asking for advice really, I should not have received the mauling which came my way.
I now obviously know a lot more about myself, a pain in the arse, a no-hoper, a whinger the list goes on, had I only known before I wouldnt have become a pilot. Clearly I had failed to realise that I was not allowed an opnion and I was not allowed to be human and let things get to me, how disgraceful of me.
I thank all those who saw through what was saying and realised that they too had felt that way sometime in their life, and all those who gave advice, it has been taken on board (pardon the pun)
I am looking into avaition everyday and hopefully like all others in my position there is hope for low hour pilots, even if it be on the ground originally.
Now where did I put that mirror, wonderkid ... that's me ...
Col
It is common nature for someone not to blame themselves for the situation, you are always looking to blame others, that is the way of life, if you can put your hand up and say it was your fault or that you havent done enough, then you will never be the person you could be.
I think the responses I received from some were very unfair, and the fact that it ended up almost in a slagging match between some parties, shows me that they are not worth considering.
I think that having done my training and feeling a little despondant, and really letting it out on this forum and asking for advice really, I should not have received the mauling which came my way.
I now obviously know a lot more about myself, a pain in the arse, a no-hoper, a whinger the list goes on, had I only known before I wouldnt have become a pilot. Clearly I had failed to realise that I was not allowed an opnion and I was not allowed to be human and let things get to me, how disgraceful of me.
I thank all those who saw through what was saying and realised that they too had felt that way sometime in their life, and all those who gave advice, it has been taken on board (pardon the pun)
I am looking into avaition everyday and hopefully like all others in my position there is hope for low hour pilots, even if it be on the ground originally.
Now where did I put that mirror, wonderkid ... that's me ...
Col
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I have a job for you, but you have to pay firstt
you bought a license, what do you except now...?
buy now a block time of cessna 150 and log time.
and buy the way, buy a type rating on the B737,200,300,500,NG.
and do not forget the 500h on the type.
Welcome in the real world!
buy now a block time of cessna 150 and log time.
and buy the way, buy a type rating on the B737,200,300,500,NG.
and do not forget the 500h on the type.
Welcome in the real world!
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Come on guys,
Who hasn't turned up to fly and thought "******,should have given these a poilish"
Smartcol, what i think the gist of this is that in commercial flying there is no room for much individuality, its called a uniform for just that reason and more importantly is that the image you are trying to portray of your professionalism (feel the nervous pax eyes follow you across the concourse) and also as a frontline ambassador for your company.
Also i wouldn't have wanted to rub my commercial instructors up the wrong way:You will come to find that there is but one important thing in aviation:CONTACTS,
and these folks are often the people to know who could recommend you.
You can be a excellent pilot,first time passes blah,blah but without these you are sunk and on the flip side you can be an average stickman but with contacts you will go far.
I can understand full well your despair: I did the ATPL exams in 94 and managed to pass them all first time, I was utterly elated, over the moon. Three months later i ran into a brickwall at high speed.....couldn't get a job: I didn't feel that I was owed a job but surely all the sweat in the air, the mental torture on the ground, all those beautiful summer days stuck inside rereading CPL Nav and trying to fathom a laser ring gyro, surely this was worth something.....
1995 was a year outside flying: a hard year and to all intents and purposes I am told I was rather an unpleasant human being that year: several of my colleagues turned to prozac that year (I jest not).But we all made it and hopefully you will too....
www....I can see where you are going, but it's very hard to get an impression of an individuals tone or real personality through a posting:bit harsh i feel old boy .
Who hasn't turned up to fly and thought "******,should have given these a poilish"
Smartcol, what i think the gist of this is that in commercial flying there is no room for much individuality, its called a uniform for just that reason and more importantly is that the image you are trying to portray of your professionalism (feel the nervous pax eyes follow you across the concourse) and also as a frontline ambassador for your company.
Also i wouldn't have wanted to rub my commercial instructors up the wrong way:You will come to find that there is but one important thing in aviation:CONTACTS,
and these folks are often the people to know who could recommend you.
You can be a excellent pilot,first time passes blah,blah but without these you are sunk and on the flip side you can be an average stickman but with contacts you will go far.
I can understand full well your despair: I did the ATPL exams in 94 and managed to pass them all first time, I was utterly elated, over the moon. Three months later i ran into a brickwall at high speed.....couldn't get a job: I didn't feel that I was owed a job but surely all the sweat in the air, the mental torture on the ground, all those beautiful summer days stuck inside rereading CPL Nav and trying to fathom a laser ring gyro, surely this was worth something.....
1995 was a year outside flying: a hard year and to all intents and purposes I am told I was rather an unpleasant human being that year: several of my colleagues turned to prozac that year (I jest not).But we all made it and hopefully you will too....
www....I can see where you are going, but it's very hard to get an impression of an individuals tone or real personality through a posting:bit harsh i feel old boy .
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If this thread does anything useful, it reminds us how close to the surface are the feelings of those in the precarious position of looking for a job just now. That's not just those with 200 hours, incidentally; there are many out there with ten or twenty times that much who are as busily writing CVs as you guys.
The problem is, while we can all understand and sympathise, there isn't much advice we can give that hasn't been given here many times. That's usually something along the lines of 'keep the faith, keep current (especially IR), keep networking, and something will hopefully turn up'. It can't be much more specific than that, as we usually don't know the detail of your individual circumstances. We don't really subscribe to the tea and sympathy approach, as we're not social workers, and we're not going to tell anyone that it's all going to be OK if that's not what we believe.
However, I am a little surprised at how readily we've all jumped down each others' throats! Even my little attempt at humour a week or so ago was met with a sarcastic reply! Chill, people, we are all on the same side... I think.
Anyway, a little bit of good news which might indicate that things are genuinely on the mend. At Virgin we have now reinstated all those pilots who were under notice of redundancy. Those who have already left are being asked to consider returning (although they may well be ensconced somewhere else by now), and our Chief Pilot has suggested that it can't be too long before we have to look again at recruiting in the open market. Before you rush me, no, we won't be taking any fATPLs of any kind! But it's reasonably hard evidence that the worst is now behind us, and that will have inevitable repercussions all the way through the employment chain.
The problem is, while we can all understand and sympathise, there isn't much advice we can give that hasn't been given here many times. That's usually something along the lines of 'keep the faith, keep current (especially IR), keep networking, and something will hopefully turn up'. It can't be much more specific than that, as we usually don't know the detail of your individual circumstances. We don't really subscribe to the tea and sympathy approach, as we're not social workers, and we're not going to tell anyone that it's all going to be OK if that's not what we believe.
However, I am a little surprised at how readily we've all jumped down each others' throats! Even my little attempt at humour a week or so ago was met with a sarcastic reply! Chill, people, we are all on the same side... I think.
Anyway, a little bit of good news which might indicate that things are genuinely on the mend. At Virgin we have now reinstated all those pilots who were under notice of redundancy. Those who have already left are being asked to consider returning (although they may well be ensconced somewhere else by now), and our Chief Pilot has suggested that it can't be too long before we have to look again at recruiting in the open market. Before you rush me, no, we won't be taking any fATPLs of any kind! But it's reasonably hard evidence that the worst is now behind us, and that will have inevitable repercussions all the way through the employment chain.
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FR have upped the anti for holding pool selection to 1000hrs on JAR 25 type or equivalent.. Why... well partly because a lot of the low hours people were taking too long to line check out, they were miles behind the aircraft and in fairness felt under pressure.
Rapidly expanding companies don't have excess capacity for line training and any way of cutting this down is looked at.
There is always movement right to left and this does create vacancies, although,herein lies another problem, not enough experienced skippers and line trainers.
There are'nt that many people working on the feeder types with these sort of hours that want to move, why, because their own companies have progression from TP to Jet and they don't want to lose a position in the seniority list.. in round terms money and prospects.
At the low hours end there are a lot of people available, hence all these pre-selection deals, but, if it gets you a job, at least your'e working.
A whole bunch of Aerlingus pool guys went over to easyJet on the basis some could be recalled if needed, so there must be a demand but the airlines don't seem to have the time to go through the CVs and the due process so they use any outside help or options they can get.
There's been a lot of ventillation of the self typing issues, morality etc, however, you have to accept that this is fast becoming a pre-selection criteria, rightly or wrongly; and in essence, the system of self-typing with a caveat, that if you don't screw up, you will be employed, is creating a precedent for others to follow..
Back to the numbers game, again! If you are about to spend 15K on a type rating, it might as well be a jet.. Right? well not really. Simply because the number of jet vacancies for low hours guys means the competition is too great, not only are you competing with other like minded self-typers, you are up against the airline sponsored people as well.
On the other hand, guys willing to OFFER to self type on a turbo fleet, may just get the upper hand on someone with more hours as the margins and training budgets in the smaller operations tend to be less.
I am aware of at least three heavy TP outfits in the UK that are using agency staff, this isn't cost effective, but shows the lack of available people in these markets. OK this may be seasonal, but once your'e in you can look around and get a feel for what's really going on
Bottom line is, you make your own luck, if your'e working anywhere near an airplane, it's experience, money and networking, and in the end it's contacts that get you ahead in the number game.
Rapidly expanding companies don't have excess capacity for line training and any way of cutting this down is looked at.
There is always movement right to left and this does create vacancies, although,herein lies another problem, not enough experienced skippers and line trainers.
There are'nt that many people working on the feeder types with these sort of hours that want to move, why, because their own companies have progression from TP to Jet and they don't want to lose a position in the seniority list.. in round terms money and prospects.
At the low hours end there are a lot of people available, hence all these pre-selection deals, but, if it gets you a job, at least your'e working.
A whole bunch of Aerlingus pool guys went over to easyJet on the basis some could be recalled if needed, so there must be a demand but the airlines don't seem to have the time to go through the CVs and the due process so they use any outside help or options they can get.
There's been a lot of ventillation of the self typing issues, morality etc, however, you have to accept that this is fast becoming a pre-selection criteria, rightly or wrongly; and in essence, the system of self-typing with a caveat, that if you don't screw up, you will be employed, is creating a precedent for others to follow..
Back to the numbers game, again! If you are about to spend 15K on a type rating, it might as well be a jet.. Right? well not really. Simply because the number of jet vacancies for low hours guys means the competition is too great, not only are you competing with other like minded self-typers, you are up against the airline sponsored people as well.
On the other hand, guys willing to OFFER to self type on a turbo fleet, may just get the upper hand on someone with more hours as the margins and training budgets in the smaller operations tend to be less.
I am aware of at least three heavy TP outfits in the UK that are using agency staff, this isn't cost effective, but shows the lack of available people in these markets. OK this may be seasonal, but once your'e in you can look around and get a feel for what's really going on
Bottom line is, you make your own luck, if your'e working anywhere near an airplane, it's experience, money and networking, and in the end it's contacts that get you ahead in the number game.
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smartcol
AS THIS THREAD HAS EMERGED AGAIN
smartcol are you still out there??
What have you been doing with yourself over the past 5 months?
Have you managed to prove WWW wrong?
Just curious...............
smartcol are you still out there??
What have you been doing with yourself over the past 5 months?
Have you managed to prove WWW wrong?
Just curious...............
I promise to be gentler this time smartcol...
WWW
WWW
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guys like smartcol have been abused by the JAA system.
Wannabes must once for all learn that a JAA fATPL is worse than an average lottery ticket : with an average lottery the chance of getting back your investment is 40%.
In the current times, with a JAA fATPL your chance of getting a job is below 10%.
enough said.
"The State, in choosing men to serve it, takes no notice of their opinions. If they be willing faithfully to serve it, that satisfies. "
Cromwell
Wannabes must once for all learn that a JAA fATPL is worse than an average lottery ticket : with an average lottery the chance of getting back your investment is 40%.
In the current times, with a JAA fATPL your chance of getting a job is below 10%.
enough said.
"The State, in choosing men to serve it, takes no notice of their opinions. If they be willing faithfully to serve it, that satisfies. "
Cromwell