Parson

Thegreenmachine - I think G was making a serious(ish) point

Genghis the Engineer

I was, using irony to do so.

MotoRinzler

I've found this forum following research into commercial flight lisences with a view to gaining a CPL ME IR with MCC (commonly called fATPL). I've done a lot of reading via the search function, the stickies and other sources, but have a few outstanding areas I'm hopeful others may be able to point me in the right direction with. Employability.

As a brief backstory. I'm a married male approaching 40. Wife, house, kid, full time job etc. Probably the typical financial situation for my age. The difference is; I wish to become a commercial pilot. I've always wanted to, just never been able to do anything much about it and life took me away from aviation when I was younger but I keep coming back to it, so am now just about to embark on a ppl. As old as I may be starting, If I don't then I never will.

I'm fully aware of the difficulties I may face in training, absorbing new concepts and theory's for the ATPL exams and tests, all whilst holding a full time job and doing my CPL/IR etc.

I expect difficulty once qualified wth respect to being modular vs integrated, the fact I will not be able to afford the type rating extra currently expected. Plus the fact I'll be 44(ish).

I therefore have no false expectations of working long haul for BA or Virgin. The best I understand I can expect (if lucky) is for short haul turbo prob, regional, biz or corporate work. If if I further train. I'm happy with this notion if true.

I'm not intentding to do this for the uniform and the glamor. I expect hard work to get the lisence, had work to get the first job, and hard work full stop once working. Not too different to any other profession in that respect.

I have GCSE's in English and Math. A BSc and a Post Graduate Certificate, along with good work experience with none pilot transferable skills. Others may simply call these 'life skills', or 'life experiences'. I'm detailed, calm, logical and take the lead without challenging established leadership. I take responsibility for my actions and am a little head strong. Am a team player but can happily work independently when needed. My preference is to plan tasks out yet can think on my feet when the situation dictates.

Having seen a lot of talk about the difficulties all fATPL students face gaining their first employment, research suggested that quite a lot of those looking, are also said to be none employable. I think I'd seen that almost 50% of all fATPL (both modular and intergrated) students presenting themselves for the illusive first job are said to be none employable, but it wasn't explained. I'm unsure if it's the pilots soft skills, age, background, flight school reports, the actual flight school or the actual ATPL exam pass marks.

My question is this; what does 'Employable' mean?

My intent here is to gauge my own employability as an early to mid 40 year old modular fATPL in the UK, without the ability to directly self fund a type rating. I'd consider a location move if finances made sense and I'd be happy with being bonded.

redsnail

by MotoRinzler

The question unofficially asked by the pilots on the interview panel is "Can I spend 10 hours locked in a small room with this person?"

As to your question about being a self funded fATPL in your mid 40s? The real questions should be "Will I be able to pay myself back before retirement?" "will this affect my ability to provide for my children's education?" "will my wife tolerate my absences?"

If you "win" - great. Given you live in North Wales, you'll most likely need to move at least once or endure the pain of commuting.
If you "lose" - you'll have a piece of paper from the CAA and a logbook and a £50,000 deficit.

Timing is every thing in this industry. If you are familiar with economic cycles, you'll understand where we are. A few of us are bracing ourselves for a downturn in 12-18 months time.

MotoRinzler

Redsnail; thank you. I have taken onboard your comments.

With reference to the inclination that it's a win for me if I earn the funds back or not I'd have to respond with; In my view it's not all about money. This isn't my hope/path to financial gain.

I'd like to earn some of it back yes..... we all need to live and put food on the table. And if I come out by my retirement on top then all the better. I'm sure I will make some choices purely based on finances as might be dictated.But I'm not aiming to measure success via a balance sheet alone. I'm sure you'd agree life is far more complex than just the bank balance.

I'm lucky that my wife is fully supportive and fully understands the need if it happens to commute / move / spend time away. It's impossible to say there won't be any issues as life is never that easy.

I'd love to be able to say I'd play things smart and 'time' my entry but at my age I very much doubt I have that luxury.

Your comment regarding could a person see themselves in a small room with me for 10hrs is interesting, as I suspect many a recruiter thinks along this line (organisational fit and personal likability) within their own respective employment context as a final selection method (not getting into the merits or correctnes of it).

In real terms; does your face fit. But this of course is I assume after someone has met with you. So you could say that you're already 'employable' by getting an interview. The fact that a recruiter warms more to one pilot than another is personal preference. I can't see recruiters wasting time interviewing un-employable potentials, unless I'm completely out of touch.

If I'm honest my expectation of what made one pilot more employable than another was more than ones face fitting; that exam results, schools or life experiences and was looking for insight into what these are in today's world and climate. Example. I'm to understand that for BA. I'd be un-employable due to being low hour fATPL modular.

redsnail

MotoRinzler
Many employers use their HR department to run filters WRT candidates. Officially age cannot be used but it is. Unofficially, if you're over 40 and you're low time, then you'll struggle to get a look in with most airlines. Yes, it is wrong but that's the reality with many companies. The reason is return of service for the money spent training and there is a perception that older candidates aren't mentally flexible enough to deal with the rigors of sim and ground school in the minimum time.

Other factors that can make a person unemployable, the fact that someone says that they are flexible but the reality is that they have family commitments, etc and then once hired, their flexibility and willingness to move dries up. Now, are you this person? Who knows? Your wife says she's on board now, but 2-3 years into no holidays or can't get them when she wants because you're too junior, who knows?

There are other things that make someone unemployable, essentially it's the employer's experience with a particular group that they've had experience with and if you have some of those characteristics, you're not going to get a look-in.

Many of them do become apparent during the sim assessment and interview. Authoritarian in the sim, too aggressive, not cooperative, too smug. Liar. Argumentative. it is an art to put your idea across without being a ****.

Oh - in all the jobs I have applied for, I have never been asked for exam results. No one cares in reality. Perhaps some airlines do, I don't know. Given you're probably not going for the bigger airlines, then it'll be school recommendations to a certain extent and how you've conducted yourself during your training. Real life experience? Might mean something but in the end it's all down to "can you fly and can I get on with you?" (For smaller & regional ops).

Council Van

MotoRinzler

I see you have a wife and Children, they are your priority.

Can you return to your current line of work if you do not gain employment as a pilot and if you do gain employment as a pilot can your total family income sustain your current life style?

How old are the children, young and moving them will be easy, secondary school and not such a good idea to up sticks.

I had a brief spell in Nigeria and a longer spell based in Germany, would not have expected my family to move and did not ask them to.

Working away can be tough on your domestic situation.

50k is a lot of money to gamble on a career change, flying for a living is a good job but not worth risking your family's life style and contentment for.

Tough choice, but only you know your personal and financial situation.

MotoRinzler

Redsnail & Council Van. Understood, and thank you for the time to reply.. both of you. I'd like to tease out a few thoughts on a few points you both raise if I may... provoke discussion and see if any contrasting views come out so I can get an idea of the general concesus.

My current job is safety critical. Public facing. I work as a crew of two and spend 8 to 12hrs in a vehicle with a work partner. The same one for 6 years with the odd change due to leave etc. I can relate to the concept of having to (or not wanting to) spend hrs on end with 'some'.

Although not aviation. The role has tasks where talk is minimal, yet communication is key. Not as formal as the flight deck, but I do very much grasp the concept of needing to be cooperative (but not blindly following), being clear and direct (yet not overpowering or agressive), when to discuss, debate, debrief and explore ideas (without being argumentative). When to support and when to lead. These, of course, are all very subjective... and I would say situational dependent.

Each attribute both of you have depicted as a possible negative, I could give you two positives for each. I'm not questioning if what you say is correct as I am here asking for advice; so It would be a little strange for me to say it's not correct.

For example. The idea that the self-declaration of flexible suddenly becomes inflexible once a job has been taken. I have to concede that one could indeed simply lie about the degree of flexibility that is actually available and the true degree of willingness. Equally the employer can do the same. Both could simply not 'shoot themselves in the foot' unless asked a direct question. Not my style... I'd rather be open, and expect the same.

I would equally find it extremely odd to find anyone who was so flexible that you could do anything to them and they would never say anything. Again; not my style. I do have self-worth and strong sense of whats right.

It's easy to say an employee isn't being flexable when they happen to mutter about being relocated for the 3rd time in 4 years when they were promised to not see more than 2 moves. This muttering doesn't have to be the spouse. I'm wondering how service families cope; as this isn't unique to airlines and aviation.

Costs and returns. Although I accept that the employer will face training costs, and therefore look for a return. I can't quite remove the notion that this is one of the very few industries that cost you £50k to £100k before you get an interview only to be given a job if you can then pay the employer another £30k more. I could quite confidently make the case that at my age; having committed such finances to a career change, I am less likely to run to another airline, less likely to put the job at risk, and probably happier moving into training than a young person that may be chasing money and promotions. Thus the true return is a stable and mature rounded future commander/training. That's before you then ask me how I know at 40 I want to be a pilot rather than asking me at 18. Remembering wanting something and having the funds to do it are completely different. Isn't there a risk the now 23year old changes their mind at 25 and wants to be a vet. I'd be interested in the turnover data of pilots when looking at the age of entry to service.

Family. I have to accept that you are completely correct. The family comes first. Does this make you a bad pilot and place you at the back of the line?

I'd struggle to believe that recruiters are all without family, all pilots, captains, and instructors are all without family. Thus having a family is probably more common than not. The family is only an issue for those who wish to see it as such. Again, linked to the flexibility issue. Nothing to say here that a young single person won't turn around and ask for maternity leave.

I've seen just as many single people have 'life issues' as those with family. As you say - depends on your experiences; t which I'd also add.... and how you allow those to creep into prejudices and judgements on others.

So far... I've not had anything to tells me I'm wouldn't be employable... just I'd have some explaining to do

I do read that Flybe and Easyjet (I think) are asking for 90% in all ATP TK exams, and FIRST series passes in both CPL and IR. I just can't confirm it from other sources. I also read stories of mid 40's being hired.... as I do of mid 20's not. Which brings me right back to why. Is it the rejected are not first series pass, 90% examers or was the MCC/JOC too short?

redsnail

MotoRinzler
I think you are looking for either proof or a guarantee that you'll make it as a professional pilot. There is no guarantee.

Promises, agreements written on paper/email, deals, stuff said at interview, all can and probably will be broken. Heck even contracts can be broken. I've seen it all before.

You're in North Wales, you get your first job Newcastle. They've asked you all of the above re family and stuff, you assure them that you won't leave etc. A year later, a job on something bigger and more money comes up in Liverpool. Guess what, all those things you said to your first employer are now void. That's reality. Or worse, you get your ideal job in Liverpool but now the company is moving out of that base and you now either are made redundant or accept a new base in Stansted. Great, you think, I'll get relocation allowance. Not necessarily, as you voluntarily took the base change, your move is at your expense. And so on.

I am sure all of this goes on in other industries. However, not many cost this much to enter. Of course, this assumes you get a reasonable FO position on £20-£25k/year.
Can you afford to earn less than that for 5 years post training?

If you really want to do it, go for it. I can't and won't stop you. However, too many folks enter the industry with only the sales brochure for guidance.

superflanker

Or perhaps you could find a job in aerial work or instruction.

I know you won't earn the same amount of money, but I don't understand why so many people that discovers that being a pilot is their ultimate goal won't even think about this.

I'm studying for my ATPLs and yes, I would love to be a 777 captain some day. But I would be very happy flying a Pilatus Porter, a 310 or an Arrow for the rest of my life.

redsnail

MotoRinzler
There are many reasons why people do not get a job just because they hold a CPL/IR and ATPL subjects. Usual reason is they fail the interview. Either the face-to-face part, the theory test or most commonly, the sim check.

superflanker
That is very easy to say when you're looking in. My first full time job was flying a C207 around the Kimberley in Australia. Yes, I heard myself say that I was so happy. Indeed I was. However, you do realise that the salary won't get a mortgage nor pay for retirement. When you're 25, who cares? When you're 45, you do care very much.
So by "rest of your life" you really mean "first job". Which is good.

superflanker

Ok I understand the money. It just seems to me there are a lot of students who think that anything but airline work is despicable.

MotoRinzler

Redsnail. Once again. I appreciate the input. Food for thought. Everything you raise is valid; of course and completely possible.

I find myself realising how 'glass half full' I am on the subject of my age and family position; and with the right employer can see how these would be huge benefits rather than negatives.

The notion that a young single FO wouldn't be as inflexible as you suggest an older family FO would be is not a belief I'd say I share. I'm also a terms and conditions man rather than the glossy brochure.

Superflanker. Totally agree. I suspect the majority of this type of work is via networking over pilot school sausage factories?

MotoRinzler

I suppose my question would have been better phrased as what are the coommon elements how applicants are failing interviews, tech tests and sim checks? Are the sims failed on skill, procedures or personal attributes and what?

redsnail

superflanker
Couldn't agree with you more. If it isn't Boeing or Airbus it isn't worth looking at.... :/

BusAirDriver

"MotoRinzler" by reading some of your posts, I have to agree with Redsnail, and also feel that you are looking for some validation to make this choice.

I can speak from personal experience, as I was similar age as you when I started.

First of all if you can't pay for your type rating, don't even consider it, unless you are happy to work as an FI, and can survive on £15.000 - £20.000 a year.
All aerial work jobs, are very hard to get, unless you have good connections and generally good experience, corporate / biz jets, is equally difficult, and the type ratings are at a high cost, a friend of mine was given 2 TR's by his employee, each costing close to $100.000, add to this the fact in biz jets, you are 100 % at mercy at your employee, now stable schedule, you might be away for 2 - 3 weeks, get back and go out again. But these jobs are not very easy to get, specially not for someone with low experience.

So no employee is going to spend this kind of money on a low hour 250 hour pilot.

Please don't give me that tosh that "money is not the measure of the value of my life quality" - when you have been working like a dog for 3 - 4 years, never being able to have a holiday when your children have their holidays, or you go to work when wife and kids are at work / school, and you come home when they are deep asleep 2 - 3 - 4 in the morning.
Even worse if you are commuting, you are away and commute home and to work on your rest days, and in a period of 10 days you are lucky to spend 1 - 2 days with your family, and you are telling me the family / wife will be supportive after few years like this?

And that you are going to be more loyal to your employee than a 21 year old, if you get a job which is 1 hour from home, so you will not change your job, because you are an older more rounded and honest person? Please don't make me laugh.

For the first job, we will almost do anything we need to get in, and you would be an IDIOT to be honest about your intentions, as you would not be given the job. Of course I want to commute for half a day, stay away from family and friends for another 10 days, and spend 2 days every 14 days with my family, because I want to be with your company, why would I want to move, I know I can get command here in few years, so of course, work is my priority, that's why I am happy to sell my life away.

You think this might sound extreme, it's not, it's the reality you are looking to enter if you are so lucky that you get a job.

First of all, you will not get many interviews, the ones you get you will need to prepare for, and you need to know what the companies are looking for, so you need to give the replies that their HR have recognised are the answers they are looking for.

If you can't pay your own type rating, than I would say don't even bother, because you will never find a job that will be able to give you a proper living wage if you have family, mortgage etc.

Sure us "older" candidates have many "good" attributes, but one of the reasons they will expect you to pay your own TR, is your age, they will have experience with older candidates, showing that they are not always equally fast learners, I have seen this myself from friend of mine, that was just not up to scratch for the mental games in the Sim.

I know many guys who got jobs, but they would mostly have a second source of income they could rely on, or a job / business they could go back to. But no airline will pay the TR for someone which could be a risk for them, who could run up training costs with extra sim sessions, extra period of line training etc.
Unfortunately age does not help you in this, but of course you will have other advantages that you must hope they will catch during your interview.

There are companies who might cover your TR, but they will deduct it monthly from your pay, so if you can live on £600 - £800 a month, than that might be an option if you are so lucky.

Conclusion, it is not impossible to achieve your dream, but be ready for the negatives. I personally went modular, had PPL from before, but ended up spending close to £80.000 - £90.000 incl. TR, over a period of around 4.5 years. After 4 years commuting long distances, I am where I want to be, however it all came at great personal cost, and you need to ask yourself are you ready for the reality that is not sold to you in the flight school.

Most likely you will complete the training, I assume part time, and you might not get a job, but will still have spent £50.000 plus, I was very lucky I got a job within 12 months of finishing my fATPL's, but I had to pay for my own TR to accept the job offer, the risk was on me if I screwed up my TR training.
During the first 2 years, I was home less than 80 days a year, and that included my commuting days, which I spent around 8 - 9 years commuting.
My first local job, I was commuting just over 4 hours a day for nearly 2 years, before I got my preferred base.

Are you this motivated that you can convince the people that interviews you that you are the right person for them?
When they do the interview, they are looking to tick HR boxes, so your answers should be aligned with their expectations of you.

My first interview which was abroad, I told them I wanted to join them, get my command with them, because I could get quick command, even move my family with me eventually, knowing full well this was all a load of BS, but honesty would not have gotten me my first job, because that would not have ticked the right boxes of what they wanted from me.

(When I completed my IR /fATPL, the head of school congratulated me, and told me whatever I did, I should try to get a Jet job asp., because it was the only way you could justify the massive investment at such a late age, and he was right)

MotoRinzler

BusAirDriver

Reality or not; your comments are quite negative. So I thank you for either trying to put me off or simply being open and honest.

Specifically on one point thou. You are wrong. When I say that money is not the only measure of success; I'm being genuinely honest. You may of course think it's 'tosh'.... you obviously know little about me.

That opinion difference aside. I appreciate the contribution. It's only with others views I can formulate an educated and informed decision.

I'm starting to recognise that funding a TR should be something I ensure I can do... plus investigate FI... which is something I'm now looking into more.

BusAirDriver

No I am not being negative, I am being realistic.
Most of us who do this, forego common sense.

You can't live of FI, well not supporting a family etc., maybe if you that part time with your normal job, than that could work, again not easy to even get those jobs, but if you do your training at good level you might get the odd FI jobs from time to time, but you can't survive full time on that, unless your wife also has a good job.

Regarding the TR, if you start of with the outset that you will not pay your own TR, you are already excluding yourself from 90% of the jobs that are around.

Regarding your opinion of Money, "MotoRinzler" - maybe you are very rich, or / and your wife has high paid job, so money is not an objective for you, than it's fine. Go ahead, go for it and live the dream.
However I suggest you first get your class 1 medical, your PPL as step 1 and 2, than check if you can spend around £80.000 - £90.000 on training, where at best you will have a job for the next 7 -8 years making around £2.000 a month.
If you can handle your family, and expenses for at least 7-8 years, maybe more, than that's reality, that's not about being negative.

I might sound negative, because this is the experience I have had, and only last year did I have the chance to have a proper holiday with my daughter, for the first time in over 4 year since, I started working. And it was not about the money alone, when you been commuting over different time zones for a couple of years, you discover that it's about lifestyle and life quality, and lets be honest, without money you have neither, and also you need to calculate the time.

I am personally very happy with my situation now, it's perfect for me, but it was 4 years of hardship, and still the investment has not paid itself back, and it will probably take me another 4 -6 years, before I can say I have reached where I wanted, and I am in a good place.

That's what you need to understand, and what's difficult to see when you have not started.

I know guys starting late 30's, and now have their command with BA, it's not impossible, but it's not easy.

jamesgrainge

The market probably looks much more positive across the board at this time though. Good luck if you can get qualified in a couple of years, there should be the positions available.

BusAirDriver

That seems like a real constructive and measured response, based on one persons senses and emotions, with absolutely no basis in real facts.

The job market for low houred pilots will not change anytime soon, as there are thousands out there fishing for their first jobs. Unfortunately for many, there are a few FTO's that are now getting priority on supplying pilots to airlines, which makes it more difficult if you choose to go the cheaper modular route.

If you have few thousand hours on jet, sure the future is bright, if you only finished CPL/ME/IR with your ATPL's, and 250 hours, you will be one of 5000 for every job application. So unfortunately money for TR, age etc. are all things that will count in the selection process.

With the money I spent on training, I could have put that as a deposit on a house, and had my own property today (well the banks property).
Money wise that would have maybe been a smarter investment. Do I regret? Not yet.
But we never know what life will bring in the future.