How Long it takes the Modular way???
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How Long it takes the Modular way???
I just want to know simply how long it takes going for fATPL the Modular way and average costs ??? considering planning to achieve everything in the shortest time.....
I have looked into all the Integrated Vs Modular threads......so can only sensible people with sensible answers please reply.....would like to hear it from someone who has been through that route!!!
Thanks!!!
I have looked into all the Integrated Vs Modular threads......so can only sensible people with sensible answers please reply.....would like to hear it from someone who has been through that route!!!
Thanks!!!
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I was going to give you advice to find the search button but I think its wasted so I will bite.
PPL - went to the US - 3 weeks back in the good ole days when there were loads of decent schools to choose from (2001).
Hour building - went again to the US over a couple of holidays of 2-3 weeks each. Did about 150 hours over these trips and saw quite a bit of the US and various bars!
ATPL exams - 14 to do in whatever time you can do them in. If you go fulltime it will invariably be quicker. Distance learning and how long is a piece of string. Make sure you read LASORS for all the rules and regs on how many sittings, how long the passes are valid for etc.
ME/CPL/IR started in September from memory and finished around January all in the UK. All multi engine as well incidentally which added to the cost but made life easier test time. So call that 5 months or so for the professional flight training. Will really depend on time of year and how jammy you are with wx.
Add on an MCC which will say take about 1-2 weeks and hey presto you have now joined about 10,000 others who have zero commercial experience looking for their first jobs across the aviation world.
PPL - went to the US - 3 weeks back in the good ole days when there were loads of decent schools to choose from (2001).
Hour building - went again to the US over a couple of holidays of 2-3 weeks each. Did about 150 hours over these trips and saw quite a bit of the US and various bars!
ATPL exams - 14 to do in whatever time you can do them in. If you go fulltime it will invariably be quicker. Distance learning and how long is a piece of string. Make sure you read LASORS for all the rules and regs on how many sittings, how long the passes are valid for etc.
ME/CPL/IR started in September from memory and finished around January all in the UK. All multi engine as well incidentally which added to the cost but made life easier test time. So call that 5 months or so for the professional flight training. Will really depend on time of year and how jammy you are with wx.
Add on an MCC which will say take about 1-2 weeks and hey presto you have now joined about 10,000 others who have zero commercial experience looking for their first jobs across the aviation world.
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Modular is the best bet with the current job situation. A year from scratch if you do it full time is good for planning. The ground exams are the major time constraint. Will cost approx 40% less than integrated and you'll have the same bleak employment opportunities at the moment. Hour building aside, best do the training in the UK, as its a false economy when you have to retrain on return home.
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Thanks a lot guys, for helpful replies!!! It does really help with sensible replies rather than having to go through all the comments which are not relevant, really appreciate it!!! and Good Luck with the job hunt !!!
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Zero to CPL/IR + MCC was about £45k all in, including medicals, exams, CPL retest, accomodation where necessary and various overpriced bits of plastic.
It took me nearly seven years, but it's a very long story (see below for the gory details). Could be done inside 18 months if you really wanted to, but you'd be mad to rush at the moment. Three to four years would be more sensible.
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...-my-story.html
It took me nearly seven years, but it's a very long story (see below for the gory details). Could be done inside 18 months if you really wanted to, but you'd be mad to rush at the moment. Three to four years would be more sensible.
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...-my-story.html
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Took me 4 years from start to finish and has cost around £40-45K.
PPL in South Africa completed in 19 days. Cost £3300 including accom. Prices are still pretty competitive over there, and no visa required for UK residents for PPL training either, and you don't need to convert it to continue training in the UK.
Several more trips back to SA to hour build up to 120 hrs over the next 2 years - roughly £45/hr for a C152 and £65/hr for a C172, wet and all in great condition, unlike some of the death traps that can be hired in the US.
ATPL's at London Met.
Last 30 hours built in the UK to get used to things here.
CPL/ME/IR at Stapleford - probably the best value for money out there at the moment IMHO.
MCC - European Skybus at Bournemouth.
It can all be done in just over a year if you do it full time and get lucky with the weather and first time passes, but if I was starting out now, I'd plan on it taking at least 2+ years to give the industry time to pick up again. Also Modular allows you to work around your training, and finishing with as little debt as possible is probably a good thing in the current economic climate.
PPL in South Africa completed in 19 days. Cost £3300 including accom. Prices are still pretty competitive over there, and no visa required for UK residents for PPL training either, and you don't need to convert it to continue training in the UK.
Several more trips back to SA to hour build up to 120 hrs over the next 2 years - roughly £45/hr for a C152 and £65/hr for a C172, wet and all in great condition, unlike some of the death traps that can be hired in the US.
ATPL's at London Met.
Last 30 hours built in the UK to get used to things here.
CPL/ME/IR at Stapleford - probably the best value for money out there at the moment IMHO.
MCC - European Skybus at Bournemouth.
It can all be done in just over a year if you do it full time and get lucky with the weather and first time passes, but if I was starting out now, I'd plan on it taking at least 2+ years to give the industry time to pick up again. Also Modular allows you to work around your training, and finishing with as little debt as possible is probably a good thing in the current economic climate.
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Hmmm. I don't know, so this isn't based on experience, but I'd be very suprised if [the average person] could do 0 -fATPL in < 1 year modular. I know some people can, but for the average person I think that's a VERY tall order.
Full time, I reckon 15 months is a sensible plan. Unless you plan on just learning the answers - which I'd suggest is a VERY dangerous practice -from Bristol (or similar QB) the exams alone you will need 6 months for. PPL 3 weeks (for C 50 hours) + hour building (another 6 weeks if we pro rata the PPL out) + five months for professional training (taken from potkettleblacks post) + 2 weeks MCC (plus another 2 weeks if you go JOC also - I think it's useful, lots of people don't).
All this adds up to about 14 months, absolutely flat out, no breaks. About the same time as an integrated course. Would consider yourself very lucky (and talented!) if you can complete 0 - fATPL in less than that time.
costs....Don't know, but again most of the mod guys I've met have said that it's not strictly true that you can save 40% on integrated and the differential is much lower. That said, it IS undoubtedly cheaper.
good luck
Full time, I reckon 15 months is a sensible plan. Unless you plan on just learning the answers - which I'd suggest is a VERY dangerous practice -from Bristol (or similar QB) the exams alone you will need 6 months for. PPL 3 weeks (for C 50 hours) + hour building (another 6 weeks if we pro rata the PPL out) + five months for professional training (taken from potkettleblacks post) + 2 weeks MCC (plus another 2 weeks if you go JOC also - I think it's useful, lots of people don't).
All this adds up to about 14 months, absolutely flat out, no breaks. About the same time as an integrated course. Would consider yourself very lucky (and talented!) if you can complete 0 - fATPL in less than that time.
costs....Don't know, but again most of the mod guys I've met have said that it's not strictly true that you can save 40% on integrated and the differential is much lower. That said, it IS undoubtedly cheaper.
good luck
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Clanger,
it depends how you work things out but 40% can definately be true.
If you went integrated and borrowed 70K (If they still are lending!) then you add on the interest with the repayments, then the loan is actually for over over 100K. Add expenses on top of that for the 12-18 months. If I took this option, then I would have to leave work costing me 38K a year.
Therefore, an Integrated course will cost me circa 200K!!!!!!
I have worked out that doing it mod (with 25% contingency) will cost me 56K including everything - no loans.
So for me, going integrated would be 400% more expensive! (4 times the mod course).
There is no contest between mod vs integrated so don't even start debating.
it depends how you work things out but 40% can definately be true.
If you went integrated and borrowed 70K (If they still are lending!) then you add on the interest with the repayments, then the loan is actually for over over 100K. Add expenses on top of that for the 12-18 months. If I took this option, then I would have to leave work costing me 38K a year.
Therefore, an Integrated course will cost me circa 200K!!!!!!
I have worked out that doing it mod (with 25% contingency) will cost me 56K including everything - no loans.
So for me, going integrated would be 400% more expensive! (4 times the mod course).
There is no contest between mod vs integrated so don't even start debating.
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BSMuppet,
I wouldn't argue for a second that Modular is not cheaper than integrated, but I would counsel extreme caution in your figures. Just SOME points I would suggest that you - or anyone else may want to consider....
A) Integrated courses. You have NEVER been allowed to borrow £70k. Yet another myth about integrated courses perpetuated by those who know no better. The courses COST that, but you have to fund at least £20k yourself...so the interest is a LOT lower than you have estimated. Also, I have to say that if you have £56k budgeted for a modular course, then the bottom line is that you're £14k (20%) cheaper than integrated. THAT is what you should base the differential on. Living costs whilst you train - you'll have those whatever route you choose, therefore you can't "add" them to one, but not the other. Ask an accountant if you don't believe me.
B) You say if you went integrated you'd have to lose the £38k a year in income....well, ok. But, then, you can't do Modular "full time" and stay working either....
So, EITHER you lose the income and complete the modular route full time(in which case you'd need to add £38k to your mod costs straight away) or you do the training part time. In which case you should figure on taking 3/4 years for your training - and consequently you need to add 3/4 years lost income/seniority - and this compounded! - for rest of your career on top of your costs.
C) Speak to the many, many, many mod students who have suddenly found that the advertised course fees don't include landing fees, VAT, licence issue, CRP5, Jepp manuals, charts etc.....I spoke relatively recently with a mod student at my FR interview, who reckoned that by the time all the hidden costs had been included he'd spent "only" about £10k less than Oxford integrated....
I'm not trying to be contentious. But, from your reply it seems you haven't started training yet...do NOT underestimate how much ****e is talked about BOTH routes. There was a post on here about 18 months ago where someone actually listed out the EXACT cost of them going 0 - fATPL modular....it was about £55k from memory. Not a whole lot cheaper.
However, you'll get no argument from me that modular IS cheaper - and generally a lot cheaper at that - than integrated. Neither would I advocate an integrated course under general terms right now....but don't be blind...there's an AWFUL lot that's never considered.
Just beware. You've done the standard thing of taking the worst possible case of integrated (and btw, if we take your figures as accurate you've got £100k course cost, £38k lost income....and "some" for living...how much are you planning on spending in 18 months that you get to over £200k! and another thing....400% more than your £56k would be £224k...may I suggest sharpening up the ol' maths before the ATPLs!) and the best possible case for modular and it just doesn't work like that. I'm not trying to be an arse, but offer advice from someone that's been there and done it.
Caveat Emptor, as they say....at least with an integrated course your costs are pretty much fixed....
I wouldn't argue for a second that Modular is not cheaper than integrated, but I would counsel extreme caution in your figures. Just SOME points I would suggest that you - or anyone else may want to consider....
A) Integrated courses. You have NEVER been allowed to borrow £70k. Yet another myth about integrated courses perpetuated by those who know no better. The courses COST that, but you have to fund at least £20k yourself...so the interest is a LOT lower than you have estimated. Also, I have to say that if you have £56k budgeted for a modular course, then the bottom line is that you're £14k (20%) cheaper than integrated. THAT is what you should base the differential on. Living costs whilst you train - you'll have those whatever route you choose, therefore you can't "add" them to one, but not the other. Ask an accountant if you don't believe me.
B) You say if you went integrated you'd have to lose the £38k a year in income....well, ok. But, then, you can't do Modular "full time" and stay working either....
So, EITHER you lose the income and complete the modular route full time(in which case you'd need to add £38k to your mod costs straight away) or you do the training part time. In which case you should figure on taking 3/4 years for your training - and consequently you need to add 3/4 years lost income/seniority - and this compounded! - for rest of your career on top of your costs.
C) Speak to the many, many, many mod students who have suddenly found that the advertised course fees don't include landing fees, VAT, licence issue, CRP5, Jepp manuals, charts etc.....I spoke relatively recently with a mod student at my FR interview, who reckoned that by the time all the hidden costs had been included he'd spent "only" about £10k less than Oxford integrated....
I'm not trying to be contentious. But, from your reply it seems you haven't started training yet...do NOT underestimate how much ****e is talked about BOTH routes. There was a post on here about 18 months ago where someone actually listed out the EXACT cost of them going 0 - fATPL modular....it was about £55k from memory. Not a whole lot cheaper.
However, you'll get no argument from me that modular IS cheaper - and generally a lot cheaper at that - than integrated. Neither would I advocate an integrated course under general terms right now....but don't be blind...there's an AWFUL lot that's never considered.
Just beware. You've done the standard thing of taking the worst possible case of integrated (and btw, if we take your figures as accurate you've got £100k course cost, £38k lost income....and "some" for living...how much are you planning on spending in 18 months that you get to over £200k! and another thing....400% more than your £56k would be £224k...may I suggest sharpening up the ol' maths before the ATPLs!) and the best possible case for modular and it just doesn't work like that. I'm not trying to be an arse, but offer advice from someone that's been there and done it.
Caveat Emptor, as they say....at least with an integrated course your costs are pretty much fixed....
Last edited by clanger32; 8th Apr 2009 at 18:50.
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Difficult question to answer, I completed my training part-time weekends only (except for tests/exams and ground school brush up) and it took me four years to complete training with a cost of about 48k.
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Clanger32, Not sure i follow what you are trying to prove?
Are you bitter about something?
Well thats quite a selling point, pay an extra 30k so you can "fix" your costs. Out of interest what happens if you over run and require more hours? Do integrated schools provide that for free these days?
Are you bitter about something?
at least with an integrated course your costs are pretty much fixed....
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bitter? Good god no! What am I trying to prove? Nothing, save there's none so blind as those that won't open their eyes! Integrated is costly but effective. There can be no doubt that it almost invariably costs more. However you really have missed the point... The difference is very seldom the vast sums you believe - because there are all sorts of different factors at play. All iwas seeking to highlight in my last post is some of the inconsistencies, to get people thinking. For example, you cannot -simply cannot- do a full time course AND hold down a full time job. This has a cost impact, although not necessarily fiscal, that should be considered, not just ignored because it is an inconvenient truth.
And definitely not bitter, I paid my money and took my chances. I have no debt and can pay a tr if I need to. I am back earning a VERY good wage and things will turn around again. I just find it ironic that the same people who witter on a out the "marketing hype" bull**** around integrated courses believe that modular can be done for 20p and in two days...
Check the numbers posted by people that have done it... G SXTY - 7 years and £45k and that was started in 1999, when things were a lot cheaper. Others here have said took them four years and 45 k. Can you START to see it now? People that have DONE the course you aspire to, in cheaper times than now have not achieved the savings you talk of against CURRENT course prices. But I doubt you'll get that. One final thing, right now, no, I wouldn't recommend int, unless you are in very particular circumstances.
And definitely not bitter, I paid my money and took my chances. I have no debt and can pay a tr if I need to. I am back earning a VERY good wage and things will turn around again. I just find it ironic that the same people who witter on a out the "marketing hype" bull**** around integrated courses believe that modular can be done for 20p and in two days...
Check the numbers posted by people that have done it... G SXTY - 7 years and £45k and that was started in 1999, when things were a lot cheaper. Others here have said took them four years and 45 k. Can you START to see it now? People that have DONE the course you aspire to, in cheaper times than now have not achieved the savings you talk of against CURRENT course prices. But I doubt you'll get that. One final thing, right now, no, I wouldn't recommend int, unless you are in very particular circumstances.
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Clanger,
I think you will find that evrything I said was based on my own personal scenario. Yes fair enough, 400% gives a cost of 224K but I wanted a round figure. I didn't really want to come up a figure of 357%.
But you go ahead and be the typical pillock that frequents the forums ONLY for the sole purpose of putting someone down if a comma is out of place or if they had a typo in one paragraph.
The facts and figures I gave are based on my own status. I could comment on each of your paragraphs in order to defend each point but I won't. I will say however that I am doing a part-time mod course. I have no loans and get a pretty much guaranteed 5.5% pay increase per year.
And don't even try to argue the point that the "lost years" will cost me more in terms of lost income/seniority. Even the marketing clowns at OAA/FTE/Cabair aren't stupid enough to put that argument down on their glossy brochures.
I think you will find that its the integrated guys who don't realise the full cost. When I read these forums, no one hardly ever mentions interest repayments hence giving a final repayment figure well above 50/70K or living expenses for the duration of the course.
LIke I said, I based my figures on what I stand to lose if I went integrated and took out loans. I dont have and wont be taking out any loans at all.
In 3 years time at 5.5% pay increase in my current job, I would be on £44,621. Can anyone tell me how long it will take me to be on this salary once I become a FO if I even get on a jet? The extra 1.5 years it takes me compared to a integrated is worth just over 65K in salary.
Will any 250hr cadets earn 65K in their first 18 months if they were lucky enough to get a job the day after MCC?
If you also take in the "quality of life" index - i.e coming out of integrated school, loans leaving you with a couple of pennies in the pocket each week while you are towing gliders around adds even more to the price in my opinion.
That is why taking everything into account, I came out with the declaration that there is no contest.
I think you will find that evrything I said was based on my own personal scenario. Yes fair enough, 400% gives a cost of 224K but I wanted a round figure. I didn't really want to come up a figure of 357%.
But you go ahead and be the typical pillock that frequents the forums ONLY for the sole purpose of putting someone down if a comma is out of place or if they had a typo in one paragraph.
The facts and figures I gave are based on my own status. I could comment on each of your paragraphs in order to defend each point but I won't. I will say however that I am doing a part-time mod course. I have no loans and get a pretty much guaranteed 5.5% pay increase per year.
And don't even try to argue the point that the "lost years" will cost me more in terms of lost income/seniority. Even the marketing clowns at OAA/FTE/Cabair aren't stupid enough to put that argument down on their glossy brochures.
I think you will find that its the integrated guys who don't realise the full cost. When I read these forums, no one hardly ever mentions interest repayments hence giving a final repayment figure well above 50/70K or living expenses for the duration of the course.
LIke I said, I based my figures on what I stand to lose if I went integrated and took out loans. I dont have and wont be taking out any loans at all.
In 3 years time at 5.5% pay increase in my current job, I would be on £44,621. Can anyone tell me how long it will take me to be on this salary once I become a FO if I even get on a jet? The extra 1.5 years it takes me compared to a integrated is worth just over 65K in salary.
Will any 250hr cadets earn 65K in their first 18 months if they were lucky enough to get a job the day after MCC?
If you also take in the "quality of life" index - i.e coming out of integrated school, loans leaving you with a couple of pennies in the pocket each week while you are towing gliders around adds even more to the price in my opinion.
That is why taking everything into account, I came out with the declaration that there is no contest.
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*sigh*
Let's get a couple of things straight. £56k for a mod course sounds more than reasonable. It sounds like you have done your homework and I wouldn't be suprised to be talking to you in five years time to find you have change from that if you're careful. I have no issue at all with that.
However each method of training has it's own cross to bear. For integrated, it's the 15 year old kid who thinks APP first officer at Oxford is the ONLY [and, by the way, BEST] way of getting the licence and is a guarantee of a job straight away at BA. For Modular, it's people who think you can complete in less than a year for £20k whilst keeping your job and-by-the-way-integrated-costs-a-kazillion-pounds.
My issue with your post is that it's not 400% though, is it. The figures are just plain wrong and [deliberately?] misleading.
If we look at your figures you got as far as £100k course costs (with mythical interest) plus your £38k lost salary, plus, apparently, £62k of living costs for 15 months to get to your stated £200k target - which is actually significantly nearer 350% if you only wanted a round figure.
So, no, i'm not actually trying to be overly picky, just pointing out that your figures are incorrect. This doesn't even consider that if you have the cash to do it, debt free...as I did, as you say you do...then an integrated course costs only £10k more than you have budgeted. But never let the facts get in the way of a good yarn, eh.?
The problem is you are assuming all integrated students borrow until their ears bleed, whereas all modular students pay from cash. Which isn't true. For example (and I would NEVER seek to recommend this), with your cash budget, you could go integrated debt free also....
You mention how many F/Os will earn £40+k first year? well, actually most at Ryanair, anyone at BA, anyone going to NJE (admittedly through their cadet scheme)....quite a lot of people actually.
You say it's a silly argument to say you lose seniority and the contingent pay...but it isn't. You just clearly haven't thought about this. The aviaition world is back ended...so you earn more the longer you've served. If you are 30 (say) now, and take 5 years to get to first job, then you've got 30 years flying ahead of you. if we assume (from PPJN) it takes 20 years seniority to get to the top pay point [lets assume £100k pa], then you've got 10 years on that salary. If you take 1.5 years to train, you've got 33.5 years useful career left .... 13.5 years on top pay point. That's £350k. How does your £44k a year look now? You're well over £200k down...Bargain.
I don't mean to be patronising, really I don't. And generally, I think most people who know me would say I'm a nice guy, but you've believed the hype of modular just as badly as the 16 year old who thinks OAA is a guaranteed place in BA. As with all such things, it's a case of understanding the FULL picture...not just the rosy picture you've decided to paint yourself of your own choice, that needs to be considered.
And STOP bandying about your bloody salary like the fact you earn £38k means anything or adds weight to your decision....it doesn't - I net a hell of a lot more than you earn gross - but it doesn't lend any more weight to the argument...
Let's get a couple of things straight. £56k for a mod course sounds more than reasonable. It sounds like you have done your homework and I wouldn't be suprised to be talking to you in five years time to find you have change from that if you're careful. I have no issue at all with that.
However each method of training has it's own cross to bear. For integrated, it's the 15 year old kid who thinks APP first officer at Oxford is the ONLY [and, by the way, BEST] way of getting the licence and is a guarantee of a job straight away at BA. For Modular, it's people who think you can complete in less than a year for £20k whilst keeping your job and-by-the-way-integrated-costs-a-kazillion-pounds.
My issue with your post is that it's not 400% though, is it. The figures are just plain wrong and [deliberately?] misleading.
If we look at your figures you got as far as £100k course costs (with mythical interest) plus your £38k lost salary, plus, apparently, £62k of living costs for 15 months to get to your stated £200k target - which is actually significantly nearer 350% if you only wanted a round figure.
So, no, i'm not actually trying to be overly picky, just pointing out that your figures are incorrect. This doesn't even consider that if you have the cash to do it, debt free...as I did, as you say you do...then an integrated course costs only £10k more than you have budgeted. But never let the facts get in the way of a good yarn, eh.?
The problem is you are assuming all integrated students borrow until their ears bleed, whereas all modular students pay from cash. Which isn't true. For example (and I would NEVER seek to recommend this), with your cash budget, you could go integrated debt free also....
You mention how many F/Os will earn £40+k first year? well, actually most at Ryanair, anyone at BA, anyone going to NJE (admittedly through their cadet scheme)....quite a lot of people actually.
You say it's a silly argument to say you lose seniority and the contingent pay...but it isn't. You just clearly haven't thought about this. The aviaition world is back ended...so you earn more the longer you've served. If you are 30 (say) now, and take 5 years to get to first job, then you've got 30 years flying ahead of you. if we assume (from PPJN) it takes 20 years seniority to get to the top pay point [lets assume £100k pa], then you've got 10 years on that salary. If you take 1.5 years to train, you've got 33.5 years useful career left .... 13.5 years on top pay point. That's £350k. How does your £44k a year look now? You're well over £200k down...Bargain.
I don't mean to be patronising, really I don't. And generally, I think most people who know me would say I'm a nice guy, but you've believed the hype of modular just as badly as the 16 year old who thinks OAA is a guaranteed place in BA. As with all such things, it's a case of understanding the FULL picture...not just the rosy picture you've decided to paint yourself of your own choice, that needs to be considered.
And STOP bandying about your bloody salary like the fact you earn £38k means anything or adds weight to your decision....it doesn't - I net a hell of a lot more than you earn gross - but it doesn't lend any more weight to the argument...
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And STOP bandying about your bloody salary like the fact you earn £38k means anything or adds weight to your decision....it doesn't - I net a hell of a lot more than you earn gross - but it doesn't lend any more weight to the argument...
Clanger,
You are really starting to give me the right hump mate - nice guy your mates would say? How about modest too?
I'm not showing off that I'm on 38K. I don't even show my age on my profile. So I could be a 18 year old who has done pretty well for himself or I could be a 45 year old where 38K would be considered sh!t at this age. I was just using it to illustrate a figure so why don't you go and do one clanger.
The fact that YOU wrote " net a hell of a lot more than you earn gross" shows me that YOU'RE the one bandying around the Aston Martin key ring.
As per your overly long paragraph regarding lost years/seniority etc - yes it is silly because not even the Integrated marketing clowns have it on their brochures.
You could open up a whole new discussion with "If's" and "But's". Like integrated gets you to BA. So a higher starting pay than if you started at Ryanair and paid for a type rating becasue you went mod. Therefore over a 30 year career, because you went integrated and got into BA, you earned a quater of a million more than your modular counterpart - so that extra 20K for an integrated course doesn't sound so bad now does it.....
Because of these "IFs" and "BUTs" relating to the above scenario, it should never have been brought into the debate about the difference in costs. However living expenses, loss of salary are definite figures for comparison.
And yes, I am being deliberately misleading. I own a modular flight school so i'm trying to get everyone to turn away from integrated ways so they can come to my flight school
Clanger,
You are really starting to give me the right hump mate - nice guy your mates would say? How about modest too?
I'm not showing off that I'm on 38K. I don't even show my age on my profile. So I could be a 18 year old who has done pretty well for himself or I could be a 45 year old where 38K would be considered sh!t at this age. I was just using it to illustrate a figure so why don't you go and do one clanger.
The fact that YOU wrote " net a hell of a lot more than you earn gross" shows me that YOU'RE the one bandying around the Aston Martin key ring.
As per your overly long paragraph regarding lost years/seniority etc - yes it is silly because not even the Integrated marketing clowns have it on their brochures.
You could open up a whole new discussion with "If's" and "But's". Like integrated gets you to BA. So a higher starting pay than if you started at Ryanair and paid for a type rating becasue you went mod. Therefore over a 30 year career, because you went integrated and got into BA, you earned a quater of a million more than your modular counterpart - so that extra 20K for an integrated course doesn't sound so bad now does it.....
Because of these "IFs" and "BUTs" relating to the above scenario, it should never have been brought into the debate about the difference in costs. However living expenses, loss of salary are definite figures for comparison.
And yes, I am being deliberately misleading. I own a modular flight school so i'm trying to get everyone to turn away from integrated ways so they can come to my flight school
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apologies to the OP, for the distinct turn off track.
BSMuppet, I don't give a flying F... if I'm giving you the hump or not. You're giving me the hump by being so sodding myopic and totally failing to see that your figures are just plain wrong. If you can't see that, then god help us all if you get in the air.
The point Iwas trying to make about Salary - the fact I earn what I earn means absolutely cock all in context of whether my opinion is valid or not, if I'm talking ****e I'm still talking ****e if I have a million in the bank or not. However, all your posts have a distinct tone of "I earn £38k, so I KNOW what I'm talking about"....I do accept however that maybe this point just comes across badly and it wasn't your intention. The point still remains however, your earnings are irrelevant be they £100k pa or £10k pa. If you go part time modular you can offset your expenditure by that amount, if you go full time, you can't. So why do you need to publish actual figures?
Your comment on "not even the integrated bods have seniority in the marketing brochure" is possibly the single most twatty comment I have read in donkeys years. Of course they don't, but if you have even half a brain then you'll understand that having 13 years on the top pay point of say £100k is worth more than 10 years on £100k. Likewise, even a hint, a tiny glint of intellect will tell you that finishing your training and starting flying earlier, gets you to that top pay point sooner. In the same way no-one markets that being a pilot pays more than being a dustman - does that make it untrue!?
Just do yourself a favour and go and look at the salaries on PPJN. Really. Look for yourself, so you don't think I'm making it up. Make yourself a nice little spreadsheet and see how it works out. I just did it for Thomas Cook and even with your preserved earnings for your five years training you're about £120k down on your whole career. Although perhaps I'll use Muppets mathematical rounding....you're £2200203k down.
The whole point, that you've so successfully managed to miss is that you've just believed the hype yourself. You clearly believe that integrated costs the moon. on a stick. Despite the fact that it actually costs only £5k more (at Cabair, as of right now) than you've laid out for your training. This is the point I'm labouring. This is the point you're missing. Because in your world the £56k cash you've got for your training would have to be borrowed to do the cabair course and therefore cost you £100k in interest.
Yes - living figures and loss of salary need to be accounted for, but cost of living figures APPLY EQUALLY TO ANY TRAINING METHOD, both WHILST you're training and after you've done. Do you not get this? Is this beyond you? Or are you perhaps planning on living on fresh air whilst modular training. There is no such thing as a free lunch....you no doubt would tell me that your income offsets the cost of living. This is true, except that you then can't use that money for training, which lengthens the whole process. And round and round we go. Loss of income, well yes that is valid. But why the hell do you think that loss of salary only applies at one end of the scale? It doesn't. time spend earning £40k at the start of your career doing something other than flying, is time you're NOT earning £100k at the other end of your career.
FWIW, again, I repeat I think £56k is more than enough. It sounds like you've budgeted very well for your training. Which is why I find it so infuriating that you can't seem to understand all the costs and the impacts of them on the wider scale. You can insult me all you want, I really don't give a stuff. Fact is I already have my nice and cheap blue wallet, I have no debt and enough money in the bank to pay a TR if I need to. So believe what you want - clearly your mind is made up - I think you have sensible and realistic figures for your course and wish you well on it. But you're so far wide of the mark on your thoughts on integrated it's not even funny...
P.S. JohnnyDB - totally agree that it's totally dependent on getting lucky with the weather. Still think a year from absolute scratch is pushing it though...but there you go,
BSMuppet, I don't give a flying F... if I'm giving you the hump or not. You're giving me the hump by being so sodding myopic and totally failing to see that your figures are just plain wrong. If you can't see that, then god help us all if you get in the air.
The point Iwas trying to make about Salary - the fact I earn what I earn means absolutely cock all in context of whether my opinion is valid or not, if I'm talking ****e I'm still talking ****e if I have a million in the bank or not. However, all your posts have a distinct tone of "I earn £38k, so I KNOW what I'm talking about"....I do accept however that maybe this point just comes across badly and it wasn't your intention. The point still remains however, your earnings are irrelevant be they £100k pa or £10k pa. If you go part time modular you can offset your expenditure by that amount, if you go full time, you can't. So why do you need to publish actual figures?
Your comment on "not even the integrated bods have seniority in the marketing brochure" is possibly the single most twatty comment I have read in donkeys years. Of course they don't, but if you have even half a brain then you'll understand that having 13 years on the top pay point of say £100k is worth more than 10 years on £100k. Likewise, even a hint, a tiny glint of intellect will tell you that finishing your training and starting flying earlier, gets you to that top pay point sooner. In the same way no-one markets that being a pilot pays more than being a dustman - does that make it untrue!?
Just do yourself a favour and go and look at the salaries on PPJN. Really. Look for yourself, so you don't think I'm making it up. Make yourself a nice little spreadsheet and see how it works out. I just did it for Thomas Cook and even with your preserved earnings for your five years training you're about £120k down on your whole career. Although perhaps I'll use Muppets mathematical rounding....you're £2200203k down.
The whole point, that you've so successfully managed to miss is that you've just believed the hype yourself. You clearly believe that integrated costs the moon. on a stick. Despite the fact that it actually costs only £5k more (at Cabair, as of right now) than you've laid out for your training. This is the point I'm labouring. This is the point you're missing. Because in your world the £56k cash you've got for your training would have to be borrowed to do the cabair course and therefore cost you £100k in interest.
Yes - living figures and loss of salary need to be accounted for, but cost of living figures APPLY EQUALLY TO ANY TRAINING METHOD, both WHILST you're training and after you've done. Do you not get this? Is this beyond you? Or are you perhaps planning on living on fresh air whilst modular training. There is no such thing as a free lunch....you no doubt would tell me that your income offsets the cost of living. This is true, except that you then can't use that money for training, which lengthens the whole process. And round and round we go. Loss of income, well yes that is valid. But why the hell do you think that loss of salary only applies at one end of the scale? It doesn't. time spend earning £40k at the start of your career doing something other than flying, is time you're NOT earning £100k at the other end of your career.
FWIW, again, I repeat I think £56k is more than enough. It sounds like you've budgeted very well for your training. Which is why I find it so infuriating that you can't seem to understand all the costs and the impacts of them on the wider scale. You can insult me all you want, I really don't give a stuff. Fact is I already have my nice and cheap blue wallet, I have no debt and enough money in the bank to pay a TR if I need to. So believe what you want - clearly your mind is made up - I think you have sensible and realistic figures for your course and wish you well on it. But you're so far wide of the mark on your thoughts on integrated it's not even funny...
P.S. JohnnyDB - totally agree that it's totally dependent on getting lucky with the weather. Still think a year from absolute scratch is pushing it though...but there you go,
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Clanger32,
now you have really given me the hump son because after this circus, I have to go home and have it all over again with the wife because I didn't do the dishes last night because of the football.
If you look at the first post, the question was "how long it takes going for fATPL the Modular way and average costs". So this is how much does it cost to get a Blue Book. Not how much you lose IF you take longer and the future loss in terms of pay scales/seniority.
We can debate untill the cows come home about what happens after the fATPL but it is ridiculous. There will always be someone younger than you, who has better T&Cs than you who is better looking than you etc.
Shall we start debating that if we were integrated guys, then the one in Oxford saves in the long run because he edns up going to BA compared to the CTC guy who ends up going to Easy Jet? Its fruitless. So what happens after the fATPL is irrelevant to working out how much going modular/intergrated ultimately costs you in a life time. The fist step is getting the blue book and this question is how much does it cost to get that book.
I have looked at all my responses and I can't really see a sentence where I have insulted you.
now you have really given me the hump son because after this circus, I have to go home and have it all over again with the wife because I didn't do the dishes last night because of the football.
If you look at the first post, the question was "how long it takes going for fATPL the Modular way and average costs". So this is how much does it cost to get a Blue Book. Not how much you lose IF you take longer and the future loss in terms of pay scales/seniority.
We can debate untill the cows come home about what happens after the fATPL but it is ridiculous. There will always be someone younger than you, who has better T&Cs than you who is better looking than you etc.
Shall we start debating that if we were integrated guys, then the one in Oxford saves in the long run because he edns up going to BA compared to the CTC guy who ends up going to Easy Jet? Its fruitless. So what happens after the fATPL is irrelevant to working out how much going modular/intergrated ultimately costs you in a life time. The fist step is getting the blue book and this question is how much does it cost to get that book.
I have looked at all my responses and I can't really see a sentence where I have insulted you.
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Quite simply put, the method of programme adopted is principally dependent on ones own situation. Vigorously research appropriate literature and formulate an approach suitably equipped to facilitate your own progression - It really is rather simple!
