Growing Evidence That The Upturn Is Upon Us
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Hooray!
Best decision you will ever make.. Please go and pass it on in the other forums, particularly those searching for £30,000 type ratings with no job offer, £70,000 integrated courses, or £25,000 of line training....
Beware, the zombie army is strong though.
With the aviation industry in arguably the worst crises ever and thousands of unemployed, rated and experienced pilots unable to find work with more to come, ever decreasing renumeration if you are lucky enough to maintain employment and with SSTR and pay-to-fly schemes established I question if there will EVER be a good time to train again?
Notwithstanding the end of cheap money and oil prices certain to rise I fear the whole business has become nothing more than a glorified flying club for all but the lucky few!
Anyone considering committing their working life to such a situation really needs to take off those rose coloured spectacles and take a long hard look at the reality of 21st century commercial aviation.
Notwithstanding the end of cheap money and oil prices certain to rise I fear the whole business has become nothing more than a glorified flying club for all but the lucky few!
Anyone considering committing their working life to such a situation really needs to take off those rose coloured spectacles and take a long hard look at the reality of 21st century commercial aviation.
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Good luck to all you guys...
My first commercial licence was issued in '78 and I lost my Class 1 eight years ago... but still trawl this forum regularly. For almost 2 years now I've despaired at the huge numbers of optimists saying it'll all be fine soon so I'll throw my £70k or $100k at a training course.
This last few weeks I've seen a growing and hugely encouraging increase in the number of posters taking a realistic view!
Yep, the worst is yet to come..and it may not come for at least 18-24 months, as www wisely predicted a long time ago. And when recovery starts there will be endless queues of type-rated and experienced (but not current) candidates for every vacancy. What will your FATPL and 250 hours be worth then?
HOLD ON TO YOUR $$ AND £££ GUYS!!
This ol' timer feels for you all... good luck. bm
This last few weeks I've seen a growing and hugely encouraging increase in the number of posters taking a realistic view!
Yep, the worst is yet to come..and it may not come for at least 18-24 months, as www wisely predicted a long time ago. And when recovery starts there will be endless queues of type-rated and experienced (but not current) candidates for every vacancy. What will your FATPL and 250 hours be worth then?
HOLD ON TO YOUR $$ AND £££ GUYS!!
This ol' timer feels for you all... good luck. bm
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Anyone considering committing their working life to such a situation really needs to take off those rose coloured spectacles and take a long hard look at the reality of 21st century commercial aviation.
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hmm the last few posts have been something that I have been considering a lot over the last few weeks, will it ever return to how it was, are oil reserves going so low pushing up the prices to make air travel unfeasable in a few years time hence cutting a pilot career short...For sure as soon as interest rates go back up its going to be nasty out there.
I am 'lucky' in that I am not touching loans to do this, just good old fashioned working 2 jobs, 7 day a week hard effort, (hence 'lucky'...havent had a day off for ages...!) So if it goes horribly wrong I wont have banks after their pound of flesh for mega loans.
Have slowed down the atpl ground school, going to maybe use the max 18 months to pass all the exams, then delay the CPL until flying instructors begin to get employed, logic being
1 - i really want to instruct and teach, and want to be an FI, havent seen an FI job advertised for ages
2 - Probable recruitment order will be experienced jet types, experienced FIs, then 200 hr peeps, so may as well wait till those FIs that want to move in airlines do it and I fill their shoes, million dollar question when will the FI jobs start re-appearing...
While that slack is being taken up I think I will continue working my nuts off, banking 1k a month, any change left over from training will go on to buying a house or my long suffering missus a ring...(dont tell 'er that!) .
As the guinness drinkers say, good things come to those that wait.
PS - bad luck WWW. thoughts with everyone that has lost a job, keep up the entertaining 'jeremy clarkson-esq' put downs of the fools that keep OAT/Cabair afloat!
I am 'lucky' in that I am not touching loans to do this, just good old fashioned working 2 jobs, 7 day a week hard effort, (hence 'lucky'...havent had a day off for ages...!) So if it goes horribly wrong I wont have banks after their pound of flesh for mega loans.
Have slowed down the atpl ground school, going to maybe use the max 18 months to pass all the exams, then delay the CPL until flying instructors begin to get employed, logic being
1 - i really want to instruct and teach, and want to be an FI, havent seen an FI job advertised for ages
2 - Probable recruitment order will be experienced jet types, experienced FIs, then 200 hr peeps, so may as well wait till those FIs that want to move in airlines do it and I fill their shoes, million dollar question when will the FI jobs start re-appearing...
While that slack is being taken up I think I will continue working my nuts off, banking 1k a month, any change left over from training will go on to buying a house or my long suffering missus a ring...(dont tell 'er that!
) . As the guinness drinkers say, good things come to those that wait.
PS - bad luck WWW. thoughts with everyone that has lost a job, keep up the entertaining 'jeremy clarkson-esq' put downs of the fools that keep OAT/Cabair afloat!
I Have Control
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Survival of the fittest
www Good Luck. You deserve it.
Do not overlook the big holiday companies, as they are likely to be the last ones standing, and they do have periodic and immediate requirements popping up at short notice for experienced and current pilots. (I'm referring to TUI and TCX here, not the smaller outfits). Mind you, there's nothing anywhere until springtime, as per usual.
Do not overlook the big holiday companies, as they are likely to be the last ones standing, and they do have periodic and immediate requirements popping up at short notice for experienced and current pilots. (I'm referring to TUI and TCX here, not the smaller outfits). Mind you, there's nothing anywhere until springtime, as per usual.
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Almost as unheard of as BA making redundancies
I personally know of pilots with > 10,000hrs, multiple commercial jet ratings and strong strong CV's who can't find work right now.
For wannabies that come out of an FTO with a good report/recommendation,they are not in that bad a place as long as they have the will and desire to stay current. Most FTO's have a recurrency programme in place to support the students that have graduated. many do not charge for sim time, only asking for accomodation costs, and charge cost price for an IR revalidation. And in this modern, wonderful world, if your last IR was on say a seneca, you can do your next IRT on a CAA approved sim!! No aircraft involved! Thats another 12 months under your belt! Several airlines like taking on the 'fresh' Ab-initios who have no illusions of grandure in the industry, and have not had their reputations preceed them, as can be the case with those pilots, hunting for jobs with 10,000 hrs +. As WWW knows, the industry is at the bottom of the cycle waiting for the upturn to come. And some of us here have seen that this industry can have just as quick an upturn, as downturn. Where do you want to be as a wannabe graduating? on the recieveing end of a sudden upturn. of course timing is everything!! that frankly, is still a gamble, whether in the good times or not!
There is a Flyer exhibition in London, Heathrow i believe, on the 31st of October. I would suggest any wannabies out there attend and hear first hand from airlines and FTOs attending, and get their questions answered. then they can make a balanced decision as to what they do next. Best of luck to everyone looking for jobs in hard times and for those who are thinking of starting out! Keep the faith and remember the dream!
"BA have had regular 'culls' of pilots on and off over the last ten years!"
Really? We've got a batch of 70 odd just about to leave under Voluntary redundancy but other than that I can't remember any pilots leaving BA through any formal redundancy process in 20 years plus - what "culling" are you referring to?
www - sad to hear your news, good luck, hope it all works out.
Really? We've got a batch of 70 odd just about to leave under Voluntary redundancy but other than that I can't remember any pilots leaving BA through any formal redundancy process in 20 years plus - what "culling" are you referring to?
www - sad to hear your news, good luck, hope it all works out.
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B/B/B...
[QUOTE]As WWW knows, the industry is at the bottom of the cycle waiting for the upturn to come. And some of us here have seen that this industry can have just as quick an upturn, as downturn. Where do you want to be as a wannabe graduating?[QUOTE]
Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish...
What bottom? We not even half way there, so think before you decide to start advertising training for wannabes!
And oh yes, Im sure the upturn is gonna come booming...
How about for the start you visit the webistes f every single operator out there and tell us who is actually recruiting right now.
PLEASE, do some research and alot of thinking before you decide to post JUST ANYTHING.
[QUOTE]As WWW knows, the industry is at the bottom of the cycle waiting for the upturn to come. And some of us here have seen that this industry can have just as quick an upturn, as downturn. Where do you want to be as a wannabe graduating?[QUOTE]
Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish...
What bottom? We not even half way there, so think before you decide to start advertising training for wannabes!
And oh yes, Im sure the upturn is gonna come booming...
How about for the start you visit the webistes f every single operator out there and tell us who is actually recruiting right now.
PLEASE, do some research and alot of thinking before you decide to post JUST ANYTHING.
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FTSE edged above 5000 today. WoooooHooooo. Recession over... lets all start training!!
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BBB, you are almost certainly an employee of an FTO.
Are you feeling alright? Yeah all you need is for the industry to miraculously improve from making a $9 billion loss to a profit, then all you need to do is get your C.V. picked out of a pile of 10000, then be invited for an interview, then do well on the day with a broken and miserable mind set and rusty flying skills and you are in.
Don't train integrated, don't think some 'sponsored' scheme is the answer and don't pay for a type rating. Life is a marathom not a sprint. Every action has a latent consequence that we may not yet know about. Keep your decisions natural, rational and logical. What ever your 'head' says, go with. Whatever your 'heart' says, ignore.
Do get a job elsewhere - in something that will perhaps add to your character if nothing else. Do save your money for the next few years - write off the big nights out for a while. Do not ever think flying is the be all and end all. When things genuinely start looking alright in the industry you'll have plenty of time to train from scratch and be well placed, probably better placed in fact, than people who thought it best to have their licences in their hand. This industry has much more 'inertia' than people give credit to. If it's going one way it'll continue to do so for longer than you think.
If you are already qualified, just do the first bits.
And nobody listen to the unfounded, unfactual, un-backed up, useless, biased, dillusional junk that was/is/will be offered to confidence trick by certain posters and companies.
Don't let these
sell you a dream. You earn it. Patience is a virtue. Greed is the one snake that can't be charmed. Hold tight, see this dreadful time through and you can (not will) get there. Whether the industry and airlines are worthy of you is another matter. If you'll work for free then you are about the calibre.
For wannabies that come out of an FTO with a good report/recommendation,they are not in that bad a place as long as they have the will and desire to stay current.
Don't train integrated, don't think some 'sponsored' scheme is the answer and don't pay for a type rating. Life is a marathom not a sprint. Every action has a latent consequence that we may not yet know about. Keep your decisions natural, rational and logical. What ever your 'head' says, go with. Whatever your 'heart' says, ignore.
Do get a job elsewhere - in something that will perhaps add to your character if nothing else. Do save your money for the next few years - write off the big nights out for a while. Do not ever think flying is the be all and end all. When things genuinely start looking alright in the industry you'll have plenty of time to train from scratch and be well placed, probably better placed in fact, than people who thought it best to have their licences in their hand. This industry has much more 'inertia' than people give credit to. If it's going one way it'll continue to do so for longer than you think.
If you are already qualified, just do the first bits.
And nobody listen to the unfounded, unfactual, un-backed up, useless, biased, dillusional junk that was/is/will be offered to confidence trick by certain posters and companies.
Don't let these
sell you a dream. You earn it. Patience is a virtue. Greed is the one snake that can't be charmed. Hold tight, see this dreadful time through and you can (not will) get there. Whether the industry and airlines are worthy of you is another matter. If you'll work for free then you are about the calibre.
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Bonds
Hey,
I'm deciding whether to book my stage 2 as I'm worried about the current financial climate and wondered if you guys can help with a few questions.
1) Is the bond secured onto an assest or are they unsecured?
2) Is there an age limit that they will accept you up to as if I sit tight for now my worry is I am 28 next year!
That'll do for now.
Cheers
I'm deciding whether to book my stage 2 as I'm worried about the current financial climate and wondered if you guys can help with a few questions.
1) Is the bond secured onto an assest or are they unsecured?
2) Is there an age limit that they will accept you up to as if I sit tight for now my worry is I am 28 next year!
That'll do for now.
Cheers
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FTSE edged above 5000 today. WoooooHooooo.
Recession over... lets all start training!!
Recession over... lets all start training!!
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Ah after nearly 2 years since the original downturn thread it looks like the vast majority of people on this thread have finally "got it".... doom and gloom everywhere. I can't help feeling that the industry will never go back to the growth it had in a market like the UK. The last boom years were driven by a one off structural shift as the low cost travel market emerged..... helped by a debt splurge the likes of which can never be allowed to happen again.
Am I more optimistic now? Well over the past 2 years since the sh*t hit the fan I have lived in London, the Middle East and am now sat here in Hong Kong and the world feels a lot better than it did 12 months ago. I agree though that the airline industry still has more cuts to bear.... too much capacity etc etc. Still too early but we are no longer falling into the abyss from where I am sitting. As for starting training? Maybe give it another 12-18 months and modular has to be the only way to go.... no-one coming out of OAT, FTE etc are getting jobs so why pay the extra cash??
Am I more optimistic now? Well over the past 2 years since the sh*t hit the fan I have lived in London, the Middle East and am now sat here in Hong Kong and the world feels a lot better than it did 12 months ago. I agree though that the airline industry still has more cuts to bear.... too much capacity etc etc. Still too early but we are no longer falling into the abyss from where I am sitting. As for starting training? Maybe give it another 12-18 months and modular has to be the only way to go.... no-one coming out of OAT, FTE etc are getting jobs so why pay the extra cash??
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For those who get a flicker of interest and pleasure from the testiculation of BBB and the like.
Use your skill and judgement to guess the effect of the following factual list on the job market you hope you enter. Then feel free to sign up with the FTO of your choice:
01/01/2008 Alpi Eagles
06/01/2008 Aero Airlines
08/01/2008 BRTJ BritishJet.com
23/01/2008 CST Coast Air
14/01/2008 FFP Prima Charter
30/01/2008 City Star Airlines
11/02/2008 VID Aviaprad Airlines
29/02/2008 Boston-Maine Airways
08/03/2008 BigSky
13/03/2008 GirJet
18/03/2008 DHI Adam Air
25/03/2008 QSC African Safari Airways
30/03/2008 Freedom Air
30/03/2008 Airclass Airways
31/03/2008 JAA Japan Asia Airways
29/04/2008 NTW Nationwide Airlines
28/04/2008 AAH Aloha Airlines
02/04/2008 AMT ATA Airlines
09/04/2008 OHK Oasis Hong Kong Airlines
27/04/2008 ESS Eos Airlines
20/04/2008 VCX Ocean Airlines
07/04/2008 SKB Skybus Airlines
05/04/2008 SYW Skyway Airlines
11/04/2008 SWX Swazi Express Airways
03/05/2008 Mihin Lanka
13/05/2008 AOL Angkor Airways
09/05/2008 EMX Euromanx
13/05/2008 FEA Far Eastern Air Transport
23/05/2008 Club Air
30/05/2008 SLR Silverjet
31/05/2008 CCP Champion Air
10/06/2008 Magnicharters
11/06/2008 Aerocondor
16/07/2008 Yeti Airlines
21/07/2008 Ankair
21/07/2008 One-Two-Go
29/07/2008 Riau Airlines
13/08/2008 GCO Gemini Air Cargo
04/08/2008 SER Aerocalifornia
05/08/2008 Avolar
05/08/2008 Nova Air
28/08/2008 OOM Zoom Airlines
28/08/2008 UKZ Zoom Airlines (UK)
09/09/2008 FUA Futura International Airways
09/09/2008 FGL Futura Gael
11/09/2008 Air Bee
12/09/2008 XLA XL Airways UK
15/09/2008 APKX Air Pack Express
15/09/2008 AeBal
17/09/2008 Dalavia Russia
06/10/2008 Galaxy Airlines (Japan)
09/10/2008 Lagunair Spain
16/10/2008 Flysur Spain
17/10/2008 LTE Spain
17/10/2008 Omskavia
17/10/2008 Interavia
17/10/2008 Tesis
17/10/2008 Vyborg Airlines
18/10/2008 Hansung Airlines
20/10/2008 Flysur
21/10/2008 Aladia (Mexico)
29/10/2008 Sterling AirwaysAirlines
31/10/2008 Air Comet (Chile)
31/10/2008 Kras Air
01/11/2008 Domodedovo Airlines
08/11/2008 Alma (Mexico)
11/11/2008 Inter Airlines (Turkey)
01/12/2008 European Aviation Aircharter
01/12/2008 Primaris Airlines
01/12/2008 Siem Reap Airways International
03/12/2008 Flightline
06/12/2008 OK Air
Answer A: These airlines are desperate to hear from you and FTO operators are standing by to take your call.
Answer B: FTO's are standing by to take your call amazed and yet delighted at the wholesale, lemming-like naivety they witness on a daily basis.
Answer C: I have ignored this post because these clowns don't understand I have a dream and the chance of a large, secured loan.
Use your skill and judgement to guess the effect of the following factual list on the job market you hope you enter. Then feel free to sign up with the FTO of your choice:
01/01/2008 Alpi Eagles
06/01/2008 Aero Airlines
08/01/2008 BRTJ BritishJet.com
23/01/2008 CST Coast Air
14/01/2008 FFP Prima Charter
30/01/2008 City Star Airlines
11/02/2008 VID Aviaprad Airlines
29/02/2008 Boston-Maine Airways
08/03/2008 BigSky
13/03/2008 GirJet
18/03/2008 DHI Adam Air
25/03/2008 QSC African Safari Airways
30/03/2008 Freedom Air
30/03/2008 Airclass Airways
31/03/2008 JAA Japan Asia Airways
29/04/2008 NTW Nationwide Airlines
28/04/2008 AAH Aloha Airlines
02/04/2008 AMT ATA Airlines
09/04/2008 OHK Oasis Hong Kong Airlines
27/04/2008 ESS Eos Airlines
20/04/2008 VCX Ocean Airlines
07/04/2008 SKB Skybus Airlines
05/04/2008 SYW Skyway Airlines
11/04/2008 SWX Swazi Express Airways
03/05/2008 Mihin Lanka
13/05/2008 AOL Angkor Airways
09/05/2008 EMX Euromanx
13/05/2008 FEA Far Eastern Air Transport
23/05/2008 Club Air
30/05/2008 SLR Silverjet
31/05/2008 CCP Champion Air
10/06/2008 Magnicharters
11/06/2008 Aerocondor
16/07/2008 Yeti Airlines
21/07/2008 Ankair
21/07/2008 One-Two-Go
29/07/2008 Riau Airlines
13/08/2008 GCO Gemini Air Cargo
04/08/2008 SER Aerocalifornia
05/08/2008 Avolar
05/08/2008 Nova Air
28/08/2008 OOM Zoom Airlines
28/08/2008 UKZ Zoom Airlines (UK)
09/09/2008 FUA Futura International Airways
09/09/2008 FGL Futura Gael
11/09/2008 Air Bee
12/09/2008 XLA XL Airways UK
15/09/2008 APKX Air Pack Express
15/09/2008 AeBal
17/09/2008 Dalavia Russia
06/10/2008 Galaxy Airlines (Japan)
09/10/2008 Lagunair Spain
16/10/2008 Flysur Spain
17/10/2008 LTE Spain
17/10/2008 Omskavia
17/10/2008 Interavia
17/10/2008 Tesis
17/10/2008 Vyborg Airlines
18/10/2008 Hansung Airlines
20/10/2008 Flysur
21/10/2008 Aladia (Mexico)
29/10/2008 Sterling AirwaysAirlines
31/10/2008 Air Comet (Chile)
31/10/2008 Kras Air
01/11/2008 Domodedovo Airlines
08/11/2008 Alma (Mexico)
11/11/2008 Inter Airlines (Turkey)
01/12/2008 European Aviation Aircharter
01/12/2008 Primaris Airlines
01/12/2008 Siem Reap Airways International
03/12/2008 Flightline
06/12/2008 OK Air
Answer A: These airlines are desperate to hear from you and FTO operators are standing by to take your call.
Answer B: FTO's are standing by to take your call amazed and yet delighted at the wholesale, lemming-like naivety they witness on a daily basis.
Answer C: I have ignored this post because these clowns don't understand I have a dream and the chance of a large, secured loan.
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Originally Posted by Phantasm
Hmmm, I wonder if Mr Topslide knows Mr IRT's personal circumstances...
Information/advice/warnings are useless if those two magic words are unknown.
Information/advice/warnings are useless if those two magic words are unknown.
Sit tight, follow their advice and don't do otherwise without their unequivocal permission - they know best