The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam
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Modular route
Hi guys and girls,
went to a CTC open yesterday and loved it only unfortunatly cannot afford something like that, so i had thought about the modular route , but Lee Woodward said that the modular route is now starting to come under threat that airlines won't take people because they don't know there history and standard of flying, now is this true or a spiel to get you to go with CTC? any help would be fantastic as i have hit rock bottom
and need to get some advice 
many thanks
went to a CTC open yesterday and loved it only unfortunatly cannot afford something like that, so i had thought about the modular route , but Lee Woodward said that the modular route is now starting to come under threat that airlines won't take people because they don't know there history and standard of flying, now is this true or a spiel to get you to go with CTC? any help would be fantastic as i have hit rock bottom
and need to get some advice many thanks
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Hi
If you have a look at the top of the page(stickies) in the training section of the wannabe forum then you will be able to find lots of information on the pros and cons of modular training.
If you have a look at the top of the page(stickies) in the training section of the wannabe forum then you will be able to find lots of information on the pros and cons of modular training.
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HI
just remember that CTC, was set up as a inter route, not as a modular course. also remember that there is over £20K in price difference between the two, courses now. thats a lot of money to save..
if you saved too much on money and did 90% of the flying in amercia which seen to be the case and came back with a JAA ppl & cpl + night ratings, Multi engine ratings, or instructor ratings etc.
then if you have no experince i the u.k airspace, you open yourself to having problems learning new airspace, more rules etc.
however oxford, cabair have flying schools out in america for there inter & modular course. just that ctc uses new zealand as there start of flight training.
there are other flying schools such as oxford, cabair who get lots of pilot through the door and into jobs. by inter or modular route.
hope that also helps
just remember that CTC, was set up as a inter route, not as a modular course. also remember that there is over £20K in price difference between the two, courses now. thats a lot of money to save..
if you saved too much on money and did 90% of the flying in amercia which seen to be the case and came back with a JAA ppl & cpl + night ratings, Multi engine ratings, or instructor ratings etc.
then if you have no experince i the u.k airspace, you open yourself to having problems learning new airspace, more rules etc.
however oxford, cabair have flying schools out in america for there inter & modular course. just that ctc uses new zealand as there start of flight training.
there are other flying schools such as oxford, cabair who get lots of pilot through the door and into jobs. by inter or modular route.
hope that also helps
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just exactly
Who is Lee Woodward?
What is his real occupation besides salesman?
Is he saying Modulars are of lower caliber because no one knows their standard?
Pardon me, these people were also tested by a CAA examiner if they received a UK issued licence.
I suppose that means you must absolutely pay towards integrated even though you could save yourself a lot by going modular.
Go with what you can afford.
What is his real occupation besides salesman?
Is he saying Modulars are of lower caliber because no one knows their standard?
Pardon me, these people were also tested by a CAA examiner if they received a UK issued licence.
I suppose that means you must absolutely pay towards integrated even though you could save yourself a lot by going modular.
Go with what you can afford.
Last edited by OneIn60rule; 17th Nov 2009 at 12:15.
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All this modular versus integrated debate will carry on ad nauseum. Why not ask FTO's another question before deciding which route to take and that is "what is your first time IR pass rate?".
I know a nice little modular school in the north of England that has dedicated career instructors with very high standards and this school enjoys a first time pass rate of around 86%!!
The UK average is I believe just below 50% and that includes the bigger integrated schools.
Its just another consideration to add to the equation!!!
I know a nice little modular school in the north of England that has dedicated career instructors with very high standards and this school enjoys a first time pass rate of around 86%!!
The UK average is I believe just below 50% and that includes the bigger integrated schools.
Its just another consideration to add to the equation!!!
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I believe PAT do. I also understand Bristol Aviation and Airways Flight Training have first time pass rates for the IR in the 90% area.
There are a number of high quality FTO's that can be found out there with a little research.
There are a number of high quality FTO's that can be found out there with a little research.
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Pass rate for the ATPL's at OAA is generally high - the class average for all 14 exams combined for our course of 24 people was something like 95%.
Bristol is your friend though when it comes to exams.
Bristol is your friend though when it comes to exams.
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Unless you're extremely wealthy don't even think about starting an integrated course now! That would be my best advice. This industry is cyclical and right now its way way down there, let's face it, it's a mess! Things will improve of course so if you are just starting out think about your timing. Nothing wrong with cracking on with some ATPLs if you're going modular but don't go signing up with a desperate FTO for £££££ when your chance of employment is so poor right now. 
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I was deciding not so long ago, but i've made my mind up - it's modular for me.
Integrated seems the most time efficient, but hey, how about i take a year extra to finish the course and pay a loan back for 5 years less?
Seems a no brainer
monkey
Integrated seems the most time efficient, but hey, how about i take a year extra to finish the course and pay a loan back for 5 years less?
Seems a no brainer
monkey
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Can a pilot answer this please?
Integrated training....i've heard rumours that airlines prefer this? I've contacted ryan air and british airways but have not yet recieved an answer.
I know the implications of integrated, possibly life-long debt, full-time course and extortionate costs yadda yadda but if its the equivilent of looking your best instead of just looking average i believe its worth the risk of becoming forever in debt if i fail.
Any pilots experienced a particular bias towards integrated candidates or modular? Also lets say i was on either, i know that failing a particular area and resitting in integrated is alright but not so good as your future airline may become aware of it, but whats the situation during modular training? Are failures marked down still and presented?
Thanks for your time guys much appreciated.
I know the implications of integrated, possibly life-long debt, full-time course and extortionate costs yadda yadda but if its the equivilent of looking your best instead of just looking average i believe its worth the risk of becoming forever in debt if i fail.
Any pilots experienced a particular bias towards integrated candidates or modular? Also lets say i was on either, i know that failing a particular area and resitting in integrated is alright but not so good as your future airline may become aware of it, but whats the situation during modular training? Are failures marked down still and presented?
Thanks for your time guys much appreciated.
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BA used to prefer Integrated students when they were still recruiting.
Ryanair and most others didn't really care that much...
However everyone who is training now is training to be unemployed integrated or not..... There are thousands of unemployed Frozen ATPL holders in europe (Including myself)... The only diffrence is some have huge loans to pay back and some not......
Cheers
Ryanair and most others didn't really care that much...
However everyone who is training now is training to be unemployed integrated or not..... There are thousands of unemployed Frozen ATPL holders in europe (Including myself)... The only diffrence is some have huge loans to pay back and some not......
Cheers
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I'd agree. Only people like BA seem to want integrated students, and the likelyhood of getting straight into one of those operators has vanished for the time being.
You could do a full time modular course i.e. Do not work during your flight training and do it all at once. I did that and finished in the same time as an Integrated student. I couldn't justify paying an additional £20k for the priviledge of saying I was integrated. This £20k could then be useful for remaining current if you fail to get a job straight away, or towards a type rating.
Once you have had your first job, no one asks about it anyway. You may be asked about your training, but the fact it was integrated/modular doesn't really mean a lot when you do get some experience.
The main problem you will find is getting that first job. There are so many people on here that are in that situation, so if you are about to start out on your training, think hard that it is what you want to do because you could find yourself having to walk away with a CPL/IR and no flying job.
Ts and Cs in contracts are being whittled away by the likes of Ryanair contracts who take full advantage of the fact there is a huge source of low houred pilots out there who are willing to pay for training, take a small salary and work to 900 hours per year. This leads to other operators having to lower their Ts&Cs in contracts to compete because the competitions costs are that much lower...and things will only get worse as time goes by, so think long and hard about your career choice.
You could do a full time modular course i.e. Do not work during your flight training and do it all at once. I did that and finished in the same time as an Integrated student. I couldn't justify paying an additional £20k for the priviledge of saying I was integrated. This £20k could then be useful for remaining current if you fail to get a job straight away, or towards a type rating.
Once you have had your first job, no one asks about it anyway. You may be asked about your training, but the fact it was integrated/modular doesn't really mean a lot when you do get some experience.
The main problem you will find is getting that first job. There are so many people on here that are in that situation, so if you are about to start out on your training, think hard that it is what you want to do because you could find yourself having to walk away with a CPL/IR and no flying job.
Ts and Cs in contracts are being whittled away by the likes of Ryanair contracts who take full advantage of the fact there is a huge source of low houred pilots out there who are willing to pay for training, take a small salary and work to 900 hours per year. This leads to other operators having to lower their Ts&Cs in contracts to compete because the competitions costs are that much lower...and things will only get worse as time goes by, so think long and hard about your career choice.
Hovering AND talking
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I know the implications of integrated,
i believe its worth the risk of becoming forever in debt if i fail
When I was 19 I wanted to be a world-famous rock guitarist. We can't have everything we want; I now content myself with the odd gig in a local pub.
Sorry if I'm sounding like your mother but you need a reality check here.
Cheers
Whirls
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I think is fair to say that everyone who funds there own training will ask this question, I know I did. And it is a difficult decision to make due to the fact there are so many conflicting opinions, and you have no experience yourself.
The bottom line is, and I now know this as I am working for an airline, as long as you have the ticks in the right boxes, and you have that little blue book with the correct ratings in it, that is all that is required as a starting block. All this about, where you went, how well you did in your ATPL's, did you pass your IR first time, hindering you chance of getting a job is nonsense.
The magic of getting that first job is down to your approach. Of course some people do slide straight into the right hand seat of an airliner, but you will find most pilots who are now working for a living have a story to tell about how they got where they are. In terms of integrated versus modular, from my own view point, and some people may disagree with me, I dont think an integrated will pop out a better pilot than an modular guy. The reason I say that, is I have flown with both whilst teaching on light aircraft, and it is always down to the individuals natural ability and attitude.
In terms of the airlines, yes you will find a number of guys who joined as integrated students. One of the reasons for this is the way the airlines used to recruit people. The sponsorship schemes airlines would run, would involve taking someone from school/college and sending them to Oxford or Cabair to do a fully integrated course to pop out the other end an airline pilot. Obviously these schemes no longer run, however the schools still have links with airlines. So, odds are if you shine as a student when you are at Oxford, and Mr BA rings up wanting some cadets who were self sponsored, you find yourself down at British Airways for your first airline interview, wondering bloody hell this was a piece of cake
. On the flip side, if you take a modular student who learnt to fly at Joe Bloggs high and fast school of flying over a number years, they obviously dont have those links, and this budding pilot has to find other ways to land that first job. I guess you could ask the question, is it worth the extra dosh to put yourself in a better position, employment wise, and go for integrated? I dont think it is worth £30K.
I was a modular student, and it took me 12 years to get my first job. I remember being in the crew room one day, and started talking to a young gentleman who didnt look a day over 19. As we engaged in conversation, and I asked him about how he got the job, he went onto tell me that he had just finished his IR at OAT and in the administration office doing the paper work, and the resource manager for BMI happended to be on the phone looking for new pilots. The admin clerk asked this guy whether he would like to go down for an interview. So right place right time. Anyway I digress
.
You have to remember you are in fierce competition with alot of people when you graduate, modular or integrated, and you must have some sort of plan in place. Sadly so many people do not have any plan, their ratings lapse, they are out of currency and give up after a couple of years. If you dont fall into the 'in the right place at the right time' type of guy bracket you need alot of determination and be extremely focused to succeed.
I dont mean to be mean when I say this, but so many people who qualify, think the industry owes them a living. The fact of the matter is, for most people, you have to earn that place in the industry, it wont just be given to you.
The whole thing is a learning process, not just about flying, but making sensible mature decisions along the way will work wonders for you. I really enjoy the job, and the whole experience was worth every minute of blood, sweat and tears.
All the best
.
The bottom line is, and I now know this as I am working for an airline, as long as you have the ticks in the right boxes, and you have that little blue book with the correct ratings in it, that is all that is required as a starting block. All this about, where you went, how well you did in your ATPL's, did you pass your IR first time, hindering you chance of getting a job is nonsense.
The magic of getting that first job is down to your approach. Of course some people do slide straight into the right hand seat of an airliner, but you will find most pilots who are now working for a living have a story to tell about how they got where they are. In terms of integrated versus modular, from my own view point, and some people may disagree with me, I dont think an integrated will pop out a better pilot than an modular guy. The reason I say that, is I have flown with both whilst teaching on light aircraft, and it is always down to the individuals natural ability and attitude.
In terms of the airlines, yes you will find a number of guys who joined as integrated students. One of the reasons for this is the way the airlines used to recruit people. The sponsorship schemes airlines would run, would involve taking someone from school/college and sending them to Oxford or Cabair to do a fully integrated course to pop out the other end an airline pilot. Obviously these schemes no longer run, however the schools still have links with airlines. So, odds are if you shine as a student when you are at Oxford, and Mr BA rings up wanting some cadets who were self sponsored, you find yourself down at British Airways for your first airline interview, wondering bloody hell this was a piece of cake
. On the flip side, if you take a modular student who learnt to fly at Joe Bloggs high and fast school of flying over a number years, they obviously dont have those links, and this budding pilot has to find other ways to land that first job. I guess you could ask the question, is it worth the extra dosh to put yourself in a better position, employment wise, and go for integrated? I dont think it is worth £30K.I was a modular student, and it took me 12 years to get my first job. I remember being in the crew room one day, and started talking to a young gentleman who didnt look a day over 19. As we engaged in conversation, and I asked him about how he got the job, he went onto tell me that he had just finished his IR at OAT and in the administration office doing the paper work, and the resource manager for BMI happended to be on the phone looking for new pilots. The admin clerk asked this guy whether he would like to go down for an interview. So right place right time. Anyway I digress
.You have to remember you are in fierce competition with alot of people when you graduate, modular or integrated, and you must have some sort of plan in place. Sadly so many people do not have any plan, their ratings lapse, they are out of currency and give up after a couple of years. If you dont fall into the 'in the right place at the right time' type of guy bracket you need alot of determination and be extremely focused to succeed.
I dont mean to be mean when I say this, but so many people who qualify, think the industry owes them a living. The fact of the matter is, for most people, you have to earn that place in the industry, it wont just be given to you.
The whole thing is a learning process, not just about flying, but making sensible mature decisions along the way will work wonders for you. I really enjoy the job, and the whole experience was worth every minute of blood, sweat and tears.
All the best
.