The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam
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Thanks very much for the reply Bobster1. I am aware that PTC Waterford have some sort of agreement with AIB. The reason I bring this up is I went to the flyer show in Dublin yesterday and got talking to PTC staff and one of their staff told me AIB would lend you the full money for the intergrated course provided you have some sort of security, but I can't help feeling that this just telling people what they want here. Since the show I've really being considering the modular route as the prices are very expensive for intergrated and also the Head of Training for NFC in Weston made some very interesting points about doing your training in modules during the Aer Lingus seminar. Such as its more flexible and you get a licence of some sort after every module and also better value for money. The modular plan I created above is just a very quick calculation I did just to get a rough price as I'm sure I could get even better value if I actually did some proper research. However I'm sure your right when you say it will cost more as I have to look at it realistically and say nothing is simply as clear cut as it seems. Thanks again.
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Intergrated or Modular - Help me i'm confused!
Hi,
My name is Afraz Ahmad and I want to become an airline pilot flying for a major airline in the UK (i'm currently 18 years of age, just a bit of extra info!). I have just came back from the flyer proffessional training event and I met some 'people' there from Bristol Aviation and Stapleford Flight Training who said that I should opt for the modular course because of the following reasons:
1. The modular course is much cheaper than the intergrated course
2. Modular students also get jobs with major airlines like BMI, Thomson, Ryanair and Easyjet like intergrated students do
3. At the end of the day you get exactly the same licence no matter if your a intergrated or modular student
My queries:
1. Is the above accurate?
2. Do you have a higher chance of gaining employment with a major UK airline if you do the intergrated course rather than the modular course or are chances about the same (when I went to the Oxford and Cabair stand they said airlines prefer intergrated students)
3. Do the airlines have a prefrence over intergrated students rather than modular students (this is what Captain Monks of British Airways said to me)?
4. Do airlines care which training provider you train with as you long as you meet all the neccessary requirements to fly for the airline, I mean we all sit exactly the same exams and get exactly the same licence whether you train at Oxford or Bournemouth?
Thanks for all your help. Its my first post, I'll see what the response is like.
My name is Afraz Ahmad and I want to become an airline pilot flying for a major airline in the UK (i'm currently 18 years of age, just a bit of extra info!). I have just came back from the flyer proffessional training event and I met some 'people' there from Bristol Aviation and Stapleford Flight Training who said that I should opt for the modular course because of the following reasons:
1. The modular course is much cheaper than the intergrated course
2. Modular students also get jobs with major airlines like BMI, Thomson, Ryanair and Easyjet like intergrated students do
3. At the end of the day you get exactly the same licence no matter if your a intergrated or modular student
My queries:
1. Is the above accurate?
2. Do you have a higher chance of gaining employment with a major UK airline if you do the intergrated course rather than the modular course or are chances about the same (when I went to the Oxford and Cabair stand they said airlines prefer intergrated students)
3. Do the airlines have a prefrence over intergrated students rather than modular students (this is what Captain Monks of British Airways said to me)?
4. Do airlines care which training provider you train with as you long as you meet all the neccessary requirements to fly for the airline, I mean we all sit exactly the same exams and get exactly the same licence whether you train at Oxford or Bournemouth?
Thanks for all your help. Its my first post, I'll see what the response is like.
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there is loads and loads and loads and loads and loads and loads of info on this website about intergrated vs modular...... please use the search function before the abuse starts....
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Take a look at this thread
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...d-nauseam.html
That should answer a lot of your questions.
However, the basic answers to your questions are:
1. Yes it's cheaper, yes modular guys have got jobs with major airlines, and yes you end up with exactly the same licence - fATPL.
2 & 3. It depends on a lot on the airline. For example BA won't take low hour modular guys, whereas others will.
4. Again, some airlines will prefer some schools to others, and of course your individual training record will be an important part of any job prospects.
Unfortunately there isn't a simple yes/no answer to a lot of those questions.
http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...d-nauseam.html
That should answer a lot of your questions.
However, the basic answers to your questions are:
1. Yes it's cheaper, yes modular guys have got jobs with major airlines, and yes you end up with exactly the same licence - fATPL.
2 & 3. It depends on a lot on the airline. For example BA won't take low hour modular guys, whereas others will.
4. Again, some airlines will prefer some schools to others, and of course your individual training record will be an important part of any job prospects.
Unfortunately there isn't a simple yes/no answer to a lot of those questions.
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It is also worth noting that there appears to be a growing, unsuprising, trend for those that do hire modular to look to "one stop" modular courses...that is to say you do all your professional training at no more than two different schools.
FWIW, the debate about mod Vs integrated usually stems from the fact that mod is (generally; ~95% of the time) cheaper, but longer to complete (as you're likely to be working at the same time), whereas integrated is shorter and arguably makes it slightly easier to get that first job. Please note, I said there 'arguably', not definitively, certainly, it IS or any other statement of fact.
The bottom line is you need to do your own research thoroughly and then you pays your money and takes your choice. It's unlikely, IMHO, one route is definitively better than the other - it's about what suits your personal choices/circumstances the best.
FWIW, the debate about mod Vs integrated usually stems from the fact that mod is (generally; ~95% of the time) cheaper, but longer to complete (as you're likely to be working at the same time), whereas integrated is shorter and arguably makes it slightly easier to get that first job. Please note, I said there 'arguably', not definitively, certainly, it IS or any other statement of fact.
The bottom line is you need to do your own research thoroughly and then you pays your money and takes your choice. It's unlikely, IMHO, one route is definitively better than the other - it's about what suits your personal choices/circumstances the best.
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Oh bo11ocks, and Ive just forked out 250k for my Shuttle type rating. Now NASA are stipulating 100 hrs Line flying on the Shuttle before they'll even look at me.
How's a wannabe astronut meant to get a start in this game!!
Mind you the guys who did the same type rating on the NASA Integrated Shuttle type rating paid 900k for it so Im laughing really..........
How's a wannabe astronut meant to get a start in this game!!
Mind you the guys who did the same type rating on the NASA Integrated Shuttle type rating paid 900k for it so Im laughing really..........
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GWidgery
Not only are BA the only airline I know that won't currently take modulars straight out of school, but even they have done in the past. I completed my training just after someone who had an interview - in fact a job offer contingent on a first-time IR pass, which was the unfortunate stumbling block!
Afras
Remember that the integrated course is also far more specialised than the modular, so there are some types of flying (such as instructing and GA) for which it is not such good preparation. I don't take on many straight out of school, but certainly wouldn't take anyone from an integrated course. Do you know what sector of the industry you want to fly in, or where the jobs will be when you have finished?
Of course Oxford and Cabair said airlines prefer integrated. They are selling that product. I am suprised Cabair even admitted to the existence of a modular route, they haven't always in their seminars. However most airlines see that for their purposes there are advantages to each route. While some might prefer integrated the ones you are most likely to start with don't care, and the extra money is far better spent (especially at a time when you aer very likely to have a wait for your first job) on extra flying or an instructor rating.
clanger32
The modular course is not significantly longer than the integrated, maybe a couple of weeks. Yes it takes longer if the student is only part time, but in that case there is no choice, so it is academic! A large proportion of people who do modular courses work full time.
In fact at the moment I would recommend a part-time modular course, aiming to finish in 3 years. The recovery might just be starting to improve the prospects of low-hour pilots by then, at the most optimistic estimates I would believe! Alternatively find the best-paid work you can for the next 2-3 years, during which you complete the PPL, then start in earnest as the industry picks up.
Not only are BA the only airline I know that won't currently take modulars straight out of school, but even they have done in the past. I completed my training just after someone who had an interview - in fact a job offer contingent on a first-time IR pass, which was the unfortunate stumbling block!
Afras
Remember that the integrated course is also far more specialised than the modular, so there are some types of flying (such as instructing and GA) for which it is not such good preparation. I don't take on many straight out of school, but certainly wouldn't take anyone from an integrated course. Do you know what sector of the industry you want to fly in, or where the jobs will be when you have finished?
Of course Oxford and Cabair said airlines prefer integrated. They are selling that product. I am suprised Cabair even admitted to the existence of a modular route, they haven't always in their seminars. However most airlines see that for their purposes there are advantages to each route. While some might prefer integrated the ones you are most likely to start with don't care, and the extra money is far better spent (especially at a time when you aer very likely to have a wait for your first job) on extra flying or an instructor rating.
clanger32
The modular course is not significantly longer than the integrated, maybe a couple of weeks. Yes it takes longer if the student is only part time, but in that case there is no choice, so it is academic! A large proportion of people who do modular courses work full time.
In fact at the moment I would recommend a part-time modular course, aiming to finish in 3 years. The recovery might just be starting to improve the prospects of low-hour pilots by then, at the most optimistic estimates I would believe! Alternatively find the best-paid work you can for the next 2-3 years, during which you complete the PPL, then start in earnest as the industry picks up.
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Comparing prices of courses is remarkably difficult. However, it seems to me that the price of modular courses is not quite the price saving against integrated courses when all the 'bundled' items included in the integrated courses, but excluded from modular courses as 'essential extras', are accounted for.
Such as:
Notwithstanding this, there do seem to be enormous price differences between FTOs; see this thread
Such as:
- airfares
- uniform
- training equipment
- exams fees
- flight test fees
- aircraft hire for flight tests
- approach fees
- landing fees
- accommodation
- food
- travel insurance
- traveling expenses
- etc
Notwithstanding this, there do seem to be enormous price differences between FTOs; see this thread
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Lost Man Standing,
I fully accept what you say. I am fully aware of several modular students who have completed the long and tricky (whichever route one chooses!) path in less time than an integrated course.
However, just as would have everyone believe an integrated course costs over £100k and modular can be done for less than £30k, this, I believe, to be the exception, not the rule.
So whilst I accept it doesn't NECESSARILY take longer via the modular route, I stand by the statement that I personally believe Modular would take longer to complete. One of the main differences is that the modular route is often taken to mean training from post PPL stage, which of course is then not comparing like with like.
FWIW I have no problem with the modular route. I think it has a great number of benefits over integrated, but for some bizarre reason very very few involved with or promoting the use of modular courses [at the current time] seem capable of observing and recognising the factors which an integrated course offers over and above. I merely seek to offer what I have learnt from my time learning the trade as impartial advice.
I fully accept what you say. I am fully aware of several modular students who have completed the long and tricky (whichever route one chooses!) path in less time than an integrated course.
However, just as would have everyone believe an integrated course costs over £100k and modular can be done for less than £30k, this, I believe, to be the exception, not the rule.
So whilst I accept it doesn't NECESSARILY take longer via the modular route, I stand by the statement that I personally believe Modular would take longer to complete. One of the main differences is that the modular route is often taken to mean training from post PPL stage, which of course is then not comparing like with like.
FWIW I have no problem with the modular route. I think it has a great number of benefits over integrated, but for some bizarre reason very very few involved with or promoting the use of modular courses [at the current time] seem capable of observing and recognising the factors which an integrated course offers over and above. I merely seek to offer what I have learnt from my time learning the trade as impartial advice.
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Ronnie1982,
Most of the modular guys i know are working full time whilst doing their training. Things like Accomodation, food etc. really dont come into it. If you are going to take these into account then you also need to deduct the salary earned whilst studying. You may find alot of people are actually in profit
.
Do we also add the full price of accomodation and food to the price of the integrated route. What about the mortgage payments for the length of the course?
As for the uniform.
Most of the modular guys i know are working full time whilst doing their training. Things like Accomodation, food etc. really dont come into it. If you are going to take these into account then you also need to deduct the salary earned whilst studying. You may find alot of people are actually in profit
.Do we also add the full price of accomodation and food to the price of the integrated route. What about the mortgage payments for the length of the course?
As for the uniform.
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While some might prefer integrated the ones you are most likely to start with don't care
Cash or Cheque?
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Unfortunatly in this day and age you have to fund your type rating whatever company you fly for. Either by paying upfront (ryr) or by earning a small starting salary (flybe). Although you have to pay upfront for the rating at ryr, the pay is ok. Infact to earn the same as a new flybe FO you need to fly around 500 hours a year.
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Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated! No! Modular! No! Integrated!
Decisions, decisions.......
Decisions, decisions.......
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Your point is what??
Dont do any training at all?? Oh yes make the majority of FTO's and schools go bust and we will be in a much better position when the upturn comes.
Dont do any training at all?? Oh yes make the majority of FTO's and schools go bust and we will be in a much better position when the upturn comes.
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I suspect John's tongue in cheek point is indeed the "ad nauseum" bit of this thread title....people are going round and round and round this subject for ever and a day. Train by all means, the licence is the same. Choose whichever route suits ones own circumstances, surely that's the only factor relevant to an individuals choice.
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Frankly Mr Shankly you're going to have to remove yourself from this thread and indeed quite possibly this board for that last post. Writing common sense and intelligent statements about how the best form of training for an individual is only ascertainable by the individual is a crazy notion and will certainly never catch on in THIS interminable debate...
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Clanger32...
I agree wholeheartedly with your last statement!
(And for demonstrating such insight he obviously trained modular. No, integrated. d'oh...)
Frankly Mr Shankly, yes, tongue so firmly in cheek it's rude!
Prophead, sorry if I upset you buddy. I suppose my point is that I'm surprised at how violently individuals cleave to their chosen training route. It's a means to an end, and the only thing that should matter is that the route you've picked is right for you, and that you receive training of a high enough quality from said organisaton.
Do I want FTO's to close? No, I intend to use a local provider in the near future, and I'd rather they didn't go tits up until after I've finished, thankyou very much!
I'll get me coat.
JR
(And for demonstrating such insight he obviously trained modular. No, integrated. d'oh...)
Frankly Mr Shankly, yes, tongue so firmly in cheek it's rude!
Prophead, sorry if I upset you buddy. I suppose my point is that I'm surprised at how violently individuals cleave to their chosen training route. It's a means to an end, and the only thing that should matter is that the route you've picked is right for you, and that you receive training of a high enough quality from said organisaton.
Do I want FTO's to close? No, I intend to use a local provider in the near future, and I'd rather they didn't go tits up until after I've finished, thankyou very much!
I'll get me coat.
JR