The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam
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Integrated courses are never appropriate to self-funded students.
The myths of greater chances and finishing more quickly are just that - myths. Even if the few airlines that preferred integrated (they still did accept modular) were still recruiting you have to take into account several negative factors.
Those operators took on a tiny number of inexperienced pilots. There are operators and flying opportunities for which integrated training is completely unsuitable, most GA, PPL instructing and all aerial work for example. I used to throw away every CV that said 'integrated' unless they had a lot of subsequent experience, as the training was just not suitable. These are area in which a lot of people built up hours to be attractive to bigger operators. Then you take into account the cost saving of modular training, which could be £40,000 depending on how you go about training. If you have this money it can be used to increase your chances with the airlines that do, historically, take on a lot of inexperienced pilots. Conversely if you are in unmanageable debt you just cannot join some airlines, as they require you to take out a loan to pay for a type rating. If your credit is bad you cannot take that job!
Listen to Auntie Whirls, she (almost) always talks sense.
The myths of greater chances and finishing more quickly are just that - myths. Even if the few airlines that preferred integrated (they still did accept modular) were still recruiting you have to take into account several negative factors.
Those operators took on a tiny number of inexperienced pilots. There are operators and flying opportunities for which integrated training is completely unsuitable, most GA, PPL instructing and all aerial work for example. I used to throw away every CV that said 'integrated' unless they had a lot of subsequent experience, as the training was just not suitable. These are area in which a lot of people built up hours to be attractive to bigger operators. Then you take into account the cost saving of modular training, which could be £40,000 depending on how you go about training. If you have this money it can be used to increase your chances with the airlines that do, historically, take on a lot of inexperienced pilots. Conversely if you are in unmanageable debt you just cannot join some airlines, as they require you to take out a loan to pay for a type rating. If your credit is bad you cannot take that job!
Listen to Auntie Whirls, she (almost) always talks sense.
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but Lee Woodward said that the modular route is now starting to come under threat that airlines won't take people because they don't know there history and standard of flying,
People selling pilot training do seem to rely in the naivety of potential students. Integrated schools seem particularly good at that which leads to situations where those coming through the integrated systems genuinely believe they are better pilots than those coming up through the modular system
Crescent pilot being one, sorry not meaning to pick on you. But:
Integrated training....i've heard rumours that airlines prefer this? I've contacted ryan air and british airways but have not yet recieved an answer.
One of the reasons integrated graduates from the likes of OAA or FTE or whatever have a good name is simply because they are screened and filtered. The first and most important one is money. Once you pass that test the next hurdle is their aptitude tests. This gets rid of the useless the uncoordinated and the dreamers. As I always point out. These aptitude tests are as more about ensuring the reputation of the FTO than helping the student. It's cherrypicking. That's why BA and Aer Lingus like integrated, it save them some of the work. But also both those airlines have an institutional bias in favour of candidates from certain schools. Aer Lingus even insist that experienced pilots sit their own aptitude tests.
But consider, if you haven't got the money to go integrated or do have the money but have more sense? Perhaps you can pass the OAA aptitude test standing on your head. Are you less capable as a pilot or as a person than someone who has the money to pay for it?
No of course not!
So if you want to make an informed choice about integrated or modular, it's this.
Can I afford it?
Simple as that, if you can go for it. You'll probably end up in Ryanair with everyone else but hey you have the money or maybe your parents can indulge you. So go for it.
Other than that read CAT3C's post again. That's the reality of airline recruitment. Time and place. If you're lucky you fall into a job, but most people make their own luck.
Last edited by corsair; 6th Dec 2009 at 10:29. Reason: appalling and embarrassing mistakes, including mispelling appalling the first time.
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Hi, I'm still not sure if this is in the right place, but I'd just like to share my ideas for my training, and see what you guys think, and see if you have any ideas for me.
(I posted this previously)
I've had the ambition to be a commercial pilot for a long while..
I'm now 16 and have just chosen the topics I am going to study for A-Level (I chose: Physics, Maths, Geography and Biology if your interested)
I was told that I would be best, whilst doing this, to do a Private Pilots Licence at Elstree aerodrome (as just another thing for my CV - as I've heard pilots jobs are very hard to come by)
I'm not sure if anyone knows/heard of it Elstree, but after that I was thinking of maybe applying to Oxford Aviation Academy, and doing the FO course.
However this would be very expensive and although I could fund this, I was wondering if there was another, maybe less expensive, way that you can suggest?
Also as a side note, last year I did my work experience at Luton Airport and have good comments from my supervisor. I learnt a lot from that week.
Any help would be appreciated, and sorry again if I’ve done something wrong. (again)
Olly.
(I posted this previously)
I've had the ambition to be a commercial pilot for a long while..
I'm now 16 and have just chosen the topics I am going to study for A-Level (I chose: Physics, Maths, Geography and Biology if your interested)
I was told that I would be best, whilst doing this, to do a Private Pilots Licence at Elstree aerodrome (as just another thing for my CV - as I've heard pilots jobs are very hard to come by)
I'm not sure if anyone knows/heard of it Elstree, but after that I was thinking of maybe applying to Oxford Aviation Academy, and doing the FO course.
However this would be very expensive and although I could fund this, I was wondering if there was another, maybe less expensive, way that you can suggest?
Also as a side note, last year I did my work experience at Luton Airport and have good comments from my supervisor. I learnt a lot from that week.
Any help would be appreciated, and sorry again if I’ve done something wrong. (again)
Olly.
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Intergrated
Hi guys,
I have just sent off my application to Oxford Aviation to study the Intergrated course. This however for me was not an easy decision. I am only 18 years old and therefore do not have a lot of money. So I am going to be in £72,000 of debt when I come out of Oxford (thats even if the bank will accept my application for the loan!). I did however attend both open days at Oxford (modular and intergrated). They were both very informative. I did however find that the modular course wouldent suit ME because it is not in an controlled environment. I do not work well in a non-controled environment. Also I know a lot of airline pilots. They have either trained modular or Intergrated. However the general consensus is that the Intergrated pilots found it easier to get jobs in the end. That is why I chose to go intergrated over modular, but as you can see it was not an easy decision for me as my debt shall soon be rising by £72,000
Regards
Jordan
I have just sent off my application to Oxford Aviation to study the Intergrated course. This however for me was not an easy decision. I am only 18 years old and therefore do not have a lot of money. So I am going to be in £72,000 of debt when I come out of Oxford (thats even if the bank will accept my application for the loan!). I did however attend both open days at Oxford (modular and intergrated). They were both very informative. I did however find that the modular course wouldent suit ME because it is not in an controlled environment. I do not work well in a non-controled environment. Also I know a lot of airline pilots. They have either trained modular or Intergrated. However the general consensus is that the Intergrated pilots found it easier to get jobs in the end. That is why I chose to go intergrated over modular, but as you can see it was not an easy decision for me as my debt shall soon be rising by £72,000
Regards
Jordan
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Jordan, those airline pilots you know - do they think that this is a good time to spend £72k on flying training?
I ask becuase IMHO, this is a very bad time to be spending money on anything mre than a PPL and maybe the ATPL written exams. Let alone aged 17 with a 50 year career in front of you . . .
I ask becuase IMHO, this is a very bad time to be spending money on anything mre than a PPL and maybe the ATPL written exams. Let alone aged 17 with a 50 year career in front of you . . .
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Jordan,
If you're a troll/wind up, well done, you got some bites.
If you're not, I suggest you have a look at the Terms and Endearments forum and have a look what may be in store for you in 2-3 years time when you finish.
If you're a troll/wind up, well done, you got some bites.
If you're not, I suggest you have a look at the Terms and Endearments forum and have a look what may be in store for you in 2-3 years time when you finish.
Got to be a troll. Hasn't it? God. Maybe not! 
WWW
WWW
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Genuine!
Hi guys,
I am infact genuine! and couldent be more serious. I take the point that it is not a good time to be spending that ammount of money with the current economy, however all I have wanted to do since I was about 8 years old is become an airline pilot and I am taking the first opportunity I get. In my last post I showed that it was my personal oppinion on what I wanted to do but was hoping it would shed some light on to people in the same situation as me. There are lots of things you dont know about as to why I chose the intergrated route, but the two in the last post are the most important to me. There are many other underlying issues aswell. Didnt mean to hack anyone off at all was just ment to be a little informative. I could do without that guys
Thanks
Jordan
I am infact genuine! and couldent be more serious. I take the point that it is not a good time to be spending that ammount of money with the current economy, however all I have wanted to do since I was about 8 years old is become an airline pilot and I am taking the first opportunity I get. In my last post I showed that it was my personal oppinion on what I wanted to do but was hoping it would shed some light on to people in the same situation as me. There are lots of things you dont know about as to why I chose the intergrated route, but the two in the last post are the most important to me. There are many other underlying issues aswell. Didnt mean to hack anyone off at all was just ment to be a little informative. I could do without that guys
Thanks
Jordan
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Did Oxford say that their modular course is not a controlled environment? If it isn't controlled at a school where all is done in one continuous course (which it can be at Oxford) then you certainly should not attend that school for any course. What they are trying to do is make up reasons for people to pay for an integrated course. Actually both their courses have a good reputation, but I can see no good reason that the integrated course is superior to the modular.
Hey, bung me £5000 and I'll control the environment, by sticking you on appropriate courses, onto each as you finish the last. Each stage is then controlled, and I am happy to push you to the next stage in exchange for the next tranche of my outrageous fee. You'll save £20,000.
Alternatively go to a different school (I know of at least two who aren't trying to sell integrated courses) which will give you a whole set of modular courses, zero to fATPL for far less money than that, and stream you through those courses in a controlled way.
Hey, bung me £5000 and I'll control the environment, by sticking you on appropriate courses, onto each as you finish the last. Each stage is then controlled, and I am happy to push you to the next stage in exchange for the next tranche of my outrageous fee. You'll save £20,000.
Alternatively go to a different school (I know of at least two who aren't trying to sell integrated courses) which will give you a whole set of modular courses, zero to fATPL for far less money than that, and stream you through those courses in a controlled way.
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Jordan if you are not a troll, consider this
Modular Groundschool , say for examply full time at bcft, this is controlled you are sitting in a classroom 8hrs a day
Cpl you are in a school most of the day and when you fly it is with an instructor
IR same caveat
MCC same caveat
What do you think is uncontrolled about that ?
Reading into this you are basically saying if you dont get your hand held through training then you wont be any good ?
Now consider are you actually suited to a flying career if you are unable to make decisions and work things out for yourself ??
You goto Oxford paying your god knows how much for your integrated course and you will be sitting next to modular students who are learning the same stuff and flying the same aircraft with the same instructors .
Hmmmmm thinks
Im also finding it intriguing that at the moment we have quite a few pilots coming into our organisation asking for work and dropping off their cv's and at least 60% of them (conservatively estimated ) are from oxford integrated students. So what we have is a group of people coming through the door with a blue book and are all out of work . Now cast aside integrated/modular and look at this way , some of them payed around 40-50 grand for their book others payed upwards of 75 , and they are all out of work , now ask Integrated/modular ?????
And for any oxford marketing bods reading Cv's are meant to be individual not the same cv over and over again with the name changed , its awesome how many of these oxford guys all got the highest mark award for their GS and are exceptional instrument pilots with a good possibility of an early command .
Modular Groundschool , say for examply full time at bcft, this is controlled you are sitting in a classroom 8hrs a day
Cpl you are in a school most of the day and when you fly it is with an instructor
IR same caveat
MCC same caveat
What do you think is uncontrolled about that ?
Reading into this you are basically saying if you dont get your hand held through training then you wont be any good ?
Now consider are you actually suited to a flying career if you are unable to make decisions and work things out for yourself ??
You goto Oxford paying your god knows how much for your integrated course and you will be sitting next to modular students who are learning the same stuff and flying the same aircraft with the same instructors .
Hmmmmm thinks
Im also finding it intriguing that at the moment we have quite a few pilots coming into our organisation asking for work and dropping off their cv's and at least 60% of them (conservatively estimated ) are from oxford integrated students. So what we have is a group of people coming through the door with a blue book and are all out of work . Now cast aside integrated/modular and look at this way , some of them payed around 40-50 grand for their book others payed upwards of 75 , and they are all out of work , now ask Integrated/modular ?????
And for any oxford marketing bods reading Cv's are meant to be individual not the same cv over and over again with the name changed , its awesome how many of these oxford guys all got the highest mark award for their GS and are exceptional instrument pilots with a good possibility of an early command .
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Jordan and Olly flick back a couple of pages on this thread. Should give you some insight.
The point I made in my last post was the when it came to integrated or modular. The main difference is in the cost. Can you afford to go integrated? Because frankly despite being told ' the consensus is that the Intergrated pilots found it easier to get jobs in the end.' The difference is marginal. The main reason that some airlines prefer integrated (When I say some, I think it's just two), is the filtering process the flight schools use to keep out the potential remedial and slow students. Integrated or modular you'll be the same pilot at the end of the day with the same Instructors. Just slightly poorer with integrated and fewer hours. Low hours is an issue for some airlines, (more than two, a lot more than two).
In any case, for those teenagers amongst us. SLOW DOWN. There is no hurry because there are few jobs out there and there won't be any in the timescale you're looking at. Quite seriously, I would say that realistically most teenagers now embarking on training will get their first airline job in three to five years time if they're lucky. Except for Ryanair but then they expect their recruits to pay for their own training which you won't be able to afford if you've blown it on an integrated course that Ryanair could care less about.
Don't be in any hurry to take on enormous debt for a rather nebulous possibilty of a massive upturn which will suck up all the available surplus of newly graduated pilots sitting at home right now thus leaving the field open to the class of 2011.
I know what it's like. I was there, in a desperate hurry to get flying, get the job as an 18 year old. As a result I made several poor decisions which only prolonged the effort.Take your time to consider all the alternatives and beware of sales talk. They want your money and will promise anything and prey on the naivety and desperation of young enthusiastic candidates.
You're doing the right thing by asking here by the way, despite the slightly wary replies.
The point I made in my last post was the when it came to integrated or modular. The main difference is in the cost. Can you afford to go integrated? Because frankly despite being told ' the consensus is that the Intergrated pilots found it easier to get jobs in the end.' The difference is marginal. The main reason that some airlines prefer integrated (When I say some, I think it's just two), is the filtering process the flight schools use to keep out the potential remedial and slow students. Integrated or modular you'll be the same pilot at the end of the day with the same Instructors. Just slightly poorer with integrated and fewer hours. Low hours is an issue for some airlines, (more than two, a lot more than two).
In any case, for those teenagers amongst us. SLOW DOWN. There is no hurry because there are few jobs out there and there won't be any in the timescale you're looking at. Quite seriously, I would say that realistically most teenagers now embarking on training will get their first airline job in three to five years time if they're lucky. Except for Ryanair but then they expect their recruits to pay for their own training which you won't be able to afford if you've blown it on an integrated course that Ryanair could care less about.
Don't be in any hurry to take on enormous debt for a rather nebulous possibilty of a massive upturn which will suck up all the available surplus of newly graduated pilots sitting at home right now thus leaving the field open to the class of 2011.
I know what it's like. I was there, in a desperate hurry to get flying, get the job as an 18 year old. As a result I made several poor decisions which only prolonged the effort.Take your time to consider all the alternatives and beware of sales talk. They want your money and will promise anything and prey on the naivety and desperation of young enthusiastic candidates.
You're doing the right thing by asking here by the way, despite the slightly wary replies.
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Thanks guys
I realy want you to know im not a troll first of all, secondly thanks very much I am now re-considering my choice and as to the non-controled environment thing. I just think that was a bad choice of words. I see the point about the flight deck situation and thats not what I ment at all. I just find it easier to be in a more school like environment, a pilot flying for BA has been e-mailing me saying that intergrated is more school like and I think thats what I ment to say. As for affording it I will need a Loan. My father however has offerd to pay half, (he is a TRE on the A320/21/30 fleet) which is also good.
Jordan
I realy want you to know im not a troll first of all, secondly thanks very much I am now re-considering my choice and as to the non-controled environment thing. I just think that was a bad choice of words. I see the point about the flight deck situation and thats not what I ment at all. I just find it easier to be in a more school like environment, a pilot flying for BA has been e-mailing me saying that intergrated is more school like and I think thats what I ment to say. As for affording it I will need a Loan. My father however has offerd to pay half, (he is a TRE on the A320/21/30 fleet) which is also good.
Jordan
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I posted this three years ago. Things have changed a little in regards to self-sponsored type rating in all their disguise. However:
The problem with this whole dicussion is threefold:
First, PPRuNe is an anonymous forum. People here are not always who they claim to be. I attended a PPRuNe pilot training seminar back in 2001 odd, I met lots of the PPRuNe characters. Some of the people who had been talking with authority on the website over the previous few months to that seminar tuurned out to be 14 year old schoolboys and people who hadn't even achieved a PPL yet.
So always take what you read with a pinch of salt.
Secondly, there are no accurate figures on how many modular, modular one school, or integrated students get jobs. I don't believe the CAA hold these figures. Bear in mind the larger schools process more students. Therefore, if every school had a 50% employment record the larger schools seem to place more people, although the chance of getting employment though any school would be exactly the same.
Anecodotal employment stories are more likely from the larger schools where courses of 12 or more are together for other a year and mix with many other courses. There is a ready built large network to spread any good news about.
Modular students often spend three to five weeks at a smaller school where there may be only a couple of people on their course.
Therefore if it seems that integrated schools place more people, they probably do; but not necessarily as a proportion; as there are more to be placed and more to spread the good news.
Thirdly, anyone involved in either moduar, modular one school or integrated training will always try to defend and talk up their own preferred route. They are spending a lot of money in the process and don't want to beleive anything other than their route gives them the very best chance.
My story, PPL at school near Witney and school in LA, BGS, CPL at EFT, IR at Aeros, MCC at OATS. On my original airline course which was at the very start of the current recruitment boom when there were hundreds of low hour pilots out there had 3 x Integrated, 3 x Modular (form different schools) and 2 x ex-RAF.
If I had the time and money to train Integrated I probably would have done so some where sunny , or perhaps I would have gone modular with a cash reserve for a TR in needed!
I want people to thoroughly research their routes to fATPL and choose what is right for them and to see through the hype.
The other argument I hear sometimes is: I need to go integrated as I'm not very good at self study.
Fair enough, but you know that there are full time groundschool only modules don't you.?
Buyer beware!
The problem with this whole dicussion is threefold:
First, PPRuNe is an anonymous forum. People here are not always who they claim to be. I attended a PPRuNe pilot training seminar back in 2001 odd, I met lots of the PPRuNe characters. Some of the people who had been talking with authority on the website over the previous few months to that seminar tuurned out to be 14 year old schoolboys and people who hadn't even achieved a PPL yet.
So always take what you read with a pinch of salt.
Secondly, there are no accurate figures on how many modular, modular one school, or integrated students get jobs. I don't believe the CAA hold these figures. Bear in mind the larger schools process more students. Therefore, if every school had a 50% employment record the larger schools seem to place more people, although the chance of getting employment though any school would be exactly the same.
Anecodotal employment stories are more likely from the larger schools where courses of 12 or more are together for other a year and mix with many other courses. There is a ready built large network to spread any good news about.
Modular students often spend three to five weeks at a smaller school where there may be only a couple of people on their course.
Therefore if it seems that integrated schools place more people, they probably do; but not necessarily as a proportion; as there are more to be placed and more to spread the good news.
Thirdly, anyone involved in either moduar, modular one school or integrated training will always try to defend and talk up their own preferred route. They are spending a lot of money in the process and don't want to beleive anything other than their route gives them the very best chance.
My story, PPL at school near Witney and school in LA, BGS, CPL at EFT, IR at Aeros, MCC at OATS. On my original airline course which was at the very start of the current recruitment boom when there were hundreds of low hour pilots out there had 3 x Integrated, 3 x Modular (form different schools) and 2 x ex-RAF.
If I had the time and money to train Integrated I probably would have done so some where sunny , or perhaps I would have gone modular with a cash reserve for a TR in needed!
I want people to thoroughly research their routes to fATPL and choose what is right for them and to see through the hype.
The other argument I hear sometimes is: I need to go integrated as I'm not very good at self study.
Fair enough, but you know that there are full time groundschool only modules don't you.?
Buyer beware!
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Hi jordan,
As i mentioned to you in response to your very polite PM, The modualr route, especially at Oxford is a very controlled environment, the 72k debt does not factor for recurrent training, living expenses and beer tokens. I know 100+ integrated students and many modular, the integrated lads are no better off (by percentage) than the modular. I'd really consider your choice carefully.
Regards
CR
As i mentioned to you in response to your very polite PM, The modualr route, especially at Oxford is a very controlled environment, the 72k debt does not factor for recurrent training, living expenses and beer tokens. I know 100+ integrated students and many modular, the integrated lads are no better off (by percentage) than the modular. I'd really consider your choice carefully.
Regards
CR
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and as I said , the aforementioned BA pilot obviously isnt that clued up either, the modualr guys sit in the same classroom with the same instructors etc etc so how is Integrated more like school . they are both exactly the same , bar one pays a ****e load more
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Indeed, I wonder too, why so many chose integrated...
I now study airplane technician, and had the chance to begin my JAA ATPL too a few weeks ago. I didn't do it, for such choices i don't listen to my heart but to my mind. Yes I want to become a pilot, and no i'm not going to pay 70k€ and see where I end. Now I will get a decent college degree as airplane technician first, meanwhile I'm going to get my PPL while working in the vacations. From there I can build my time and my licences. I'll have a nice college degree on my CV, can go on the Erasmus exchange and won't have 70k€ debts when I get all my licences.
The way i see it, the integrated ones chose the easy way, they pay, and after 2 years they will get the bill, nothing to worry about while studying.
I now study airplane technician, and had the chance to begin my JAA ATPL too a few weeks ago. I didn't do it, for such choices i don't listen to my heart but to my mind. Yes I want to become a pilot, and no i'm not going to pay 70k€ and see where I end. Now I will get a decent college degree as airplane technician first, meanwhile I'm going to get my PPL while working in the vacations. From there I can build my time and my licences. I'll have a nice college degree on my CV, can go on the Erasmus exchange and won't have 70k€ debts when I get all my licences.
The way i see it, the integrated ones chose the easy way, they pay, and after 2 years they will get the bill, nothing to worry about while studying.
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All you need to know - Re-read Gazeems post.
You will never, ever, ever get a consensus of opinion on this topic, as there are too many factors at play. These include your own financial capability, your required timelines, the overall recruiting situation, the overall economic situation, your risk profile etc.
Right now, frankly modular is the better option. If you could time it such that you emerged into a massively buoyant market (which, by the way would be virtually impossible) then perhaps integrated offers a better solution.
However, bear in mind that people will ALWAYS defend their own choice of training. It's your money, so do your research and make your choice...and once made, don't ever look back because if you do, you'll always find someone that did it a different route and got a "better" result than you...
You will never, ever, ever get a consensus of opinion on this topic, as there are too many factors at play. These include your own financial capability, your required timelines, the overall recruiting situation, the overall economic situation, your risk profile etc.
Right now, frankly modular is the better option. If you could time it such that you emerged into a massively buoyant market (which, by the way would be virtually impossible) then perhaps integrated offers a better solution.
However, bear in mind that people will ALWAYS defend their own choice of training. It's your money, so do your research and make your choice...and once made, don't ever look back because if you do, you'll always find someone that did it a different route and got a "better" result than you...
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Have to get some advice of the people here.
Currently i'm getting my B1/B2 and part66 (theory) at college. So when i graduate i will hold a bachelor degree in aviation engineering.
Like anyone else here, the dream is to fly.. But if I get my PPL in the last 2 years i still study, make my hours taking friends and family up.
Go working as an engineer and follow evening courses here to get my JAA ATPL theory (possible to do here, takes 1.5 years) Meanwhile i could save up and pay my training after my theory. Normally we're able to take 'a career brake' legally, so i could do that to complete the training, and if I fail i still could go back to my previous job.
Does this sound realistic? I know times are very hard now for everyone, and I'm not the type that will do integrated jus because of the uniform.
Greetings & happy landings to all of you
Currently i'm getting my B1/B2 and part66 (theory) at college. So when i graduate i will hold a bachelor degree in aviation engineering.
Like anyone else here, the dream is to fly.. But if I get my PPL in the last 2 years i still study, make my hours taking friends and family up.
Go working as an engineer and follow evening courses here to get my JAA ATPL theory (possible to do here, takes 1.5 years) Meanwhile i could save up and pay my training after my theory. Normally we're able to take 'a career brake' legally, so i could do that to complete the training, and if I fail i still could go back to my previous job.
Does this sound realistic? I know times are very hard now for everyone, and I'm not the type that will do integrated jus because of the uniform.
Greetings & happy landings to all of you
