The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam
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A320 has a dig at anything to do with the training industry, and he paints an overly bleak picture. I'm sorry, but saying that you need to buy a type rating to get an interview and then buy another one once offered employment by an airline is palpable nonsense. Name me an airline that does this.
A320's cynicism has its place but he goes too far, and the problem is some people may read what he posts and actually believe him!
Just my thoughts on his input, take it as you will!
A320's cynicism has its place but he goes too far, and the problem is some people may read what he posts and actually believe him!
Just my thoughts on his input, take it as you will!
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You certainly have no idea at all about the differences between modular and integrated.
Im still doing my AS levels so I havent coughed up anything.
But you definitely have gone for modular and are perhaps envious of integrated??
Im still doing my AS levels so I havent coughed up anything.
But you definitely have gone for modular and are perhaps envious of integrated??
Sorry X3 I fly 120 tonne jets for a living
Im merely trying to pass on a bit of advice from someone who has been involved in aviation/airlines/training on 3 continents for the past 15 years.....perhaps its time for you to go back to being a school boy, and leave the adults who know what they are talking about to discuss this
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Originally Posted by X3k5
there are many structed modular courses, but only CTC is the one that can get you an airline job right after your training.
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Originally Posted by X3k5
This forum isnt for adults. Its for wannabes. If youve been in aviation for 15 years, you dont have any ideas about integrated because it didnt exist when you trained.
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oh right, interesting, i'll pass that on to the people i know who were under the impression that they trained on an integrated course at oat some years back, thank you for enlightening them!
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Originally Posted by X3k5
Please do, because before 3 years ago, Oxford didnt have the APP(integrated course).
Ask an Oxford employee if you wish to.
Ask an Oxford employee if you wish to.
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This forum isnt for adults. Its for wannabes. If youve been in aviation for 15 years, you dont have any ideas about integrated because it didnt exist when you trained.
Yes, this forum is for adults..who are also wannabes, but it also here to benefit people in so much that people who have "been there & done that" can pass on what they know to receptive and knowledge hungry individuals.
X3..you should feel B****y lucky that there are people on here that take time out of their day to offer help and advice. If you cant accept that, then Id suggest you go elsewhere.
X3
Give up buddy - you arent doing yourself any favours
The APP course at oxford is a recent addition. But go speak with Anthony or Nick etc at another seminar and they will tell you that they have been running integrated courses for as long as they can remember.
The APP course is (or was at the time) a new take on the integrated course aimed at bridging a gap they saw. It was not the first Integrated course
Give up buddy - you arent doing yourself any favours
The APP course at oxford is a recent addition. But go speak with Anthony or Nick etc at another seminar and they will tell you that they have been running integrated courses for as long as they can remember.
The APP course is (or was at the time) a new take on the integrated course aimed at bridging a gap they saw. It was not the first Integrated course
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x3k5 whats your angle?? You are bearly out of short trousers and the more you post the more your demonstrate how little you know.
I suspect that you are not genuine and are a wind-up merchant. Anyone who thinks APP was the first integrated course "approved by the airlines" has to be clueless or very naive
Are you trying to pursuade daddy to cough up the £80-90k cost of an integrated school because you haven't ever had a job and have no idea how much money that is??
I find it quite unbelievable you can come on here and tell people who fly for a living, have been through the whole training washing machine and know what they are talking about because you have been to an APP sales pitch.... ha ha ha ha.... its hilarious.... or very very sad... I can't decide which.
I suspect that you are not genuine and are a wind-up merchant. Anyone who thinks APP was the first integrated course "approved by the airlines" has to be clueless or very naive
Are you trying to pursuade daddy to cough up the £80-90k cost of an integrated school because you haven't ever had a job and have no idea how much money that is??
I find it quite unbelievable you can come on here and tell people who fly for a living, have been through the whole training washing machine and know what they are talking about because you have been to an APP sales pitch.... ha ha ha ha.... its hilarious.... or very very sad... I can't decide which.
Female
There is no harm in doing it in a variety of places. (oo err)
But continuity of training is essential. And if you find a good school that you like it might well be worth considering staying there for most of your training.
Obviously groundschool is seperate. But different fto's will have different standards and procedures when it comes to flying. If you change schools how quickly you adjust will come out of your $$. If you dont need to change there is less to worry about
well it all made sense in my mind
There is no harm in doing it in a variety of places. (oo err)
But continuity of training is essential. And if you find a good school that you like it might well be worth considering staying there for most of your training.
Obviously groundschool is seperate. But different fto's will have different standards and procedures when it comes to flying. If you change schools how quickly you adjust will come out of your $$. If you dont need to change there is less to worry about
well it all made sense in my mind
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I was modular and my first job was on jets. I think, from speaking to colleagues) the only difference with a fully integrated course is there is a chance, if you achieve good enough grades, you'll be recommended by the school if an airline phones them up asking if they've any good people through lately.
The quality of training mod or int is just as good if you pick your school well, and your CV will look the same, so you need to set yourself apart from the others, instruct, parachute drop, air taxi, air corps, volunteer air coprs instructor, scholarship winner (GAPAN/Airleague), achieve first time passes, high grades, degree, have a knighthood etc.
The quality of training mod or int is just as good if you pick your school well, and your CV will look the same, so you need to set yourself apart from the others, instruct, parachute drop, air taxi, air corps, volunteer air coprs instructor, scholarship winner (GAPAN/Airleague), achieve first time passes, high grades, degree, have a knighthood etc.
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Originally Posted by X3k5
Yes its true, but APP is the first Oxford course which was made in co-ordination with the airlines, and thus my point to haughtney1 was that airlines like people from these courses because they helped build them
yet again, get your head out of the OAT brochure and listen to people who are in the job or know what they are talking about instead of trying to insult them, this is exactly the sort of attitude that will get you disliked, or if you think that getting daddy to shell out £80+ will set you up for life, think again, humility is a great quality
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For those of you interested in the bright lights and promises of an integrated course, just think about what you are doing for a moment. Can you afford it? If so fine. (by afford I mean have you, right now, got the cash, or the income to pay the loan).
If not then just reflect a moment that bringing forward potential future earnings (and very nebulous ones at that) to justify borrowing is illegal in the world of business, and was one of the actions that got Enron et al into so much trouble, so why do you think its OK in the world of private finance?
Can you really afford that 80k loan? or are you banking on whimisical willo-the-whisp promises of some future earnings that may never appear.
Don't get yourself into a life of misery and debt for something like this. Dispite what some people here and Oxfords marketing machine tell you, most modular training is as good, some is even better, than the integrated product. Many cheif pilots and recruiting officers don't care (its not even a question on many application forms). And many modular guys get jet jobs (I know quite a few from my school in the last few months).
About the only sensible thing X3 has said - is do your own research. And for those of you thinking of borrowing the money, or getting your parents to borrow it, just spend a few hours working out just how much money 60, 70 or 80k actually is
If not then just reflect a moment that bringing forward potential future earnings (and very nebulous ones at that) to justify borrowing is illegal in the world of business, and was one of the actions that got Enron et al into so much trouble, so why do you think its OK in the world of private finance?
Can you really afford that 80k loan? or are you banking on whimisical willo-the-whisp promises of some future earnings that may never appear.
Don't get yourself into a life of misery and debt for something like this. Dispite what some people here and Oxfords marketing machine tell you, most modular training is as good, some is even better, than the integrated product. Many cheif pilots and recruiting officers don't care (its not even a question on many application forms). And many modular guys get jet jobs (I know quite a few from my school in the last few months).
About the only sensible thing X3 has said - is do your own research. And for those of you thinking of borrowing the money, or getting your parents to borrow it, just spend a few hours working out just how much money 60, 70 or 80k actually is
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AlexL i feel you are wasting your time, some 18 yr olds are quite happy to bet there parents house on the off chance they get a job straight away for BA, i feel there is something to be be said about the type of person that would let their parents put forward their house as security on an off chance of a job, integrated or not, let alone the horrifc repayments of a loan of this size, it just goes to show the power of the OAT marketing machine whan a young lad doing AS levels can poo poo the reply of a guy who has worked in the industry for 15 years and tell him he knows nothing because he has attended an OAT seminar, it beggars belief!
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The phrase "wind your neck in" has never seemed more appropriate...
Aside from the little blue book wouldn't you think that one of the most important aspects to getting that first job is your own personality?? If you come across as arrogant it probably won't matter if you have gone down the integrated or modular route. Maybe displaying sufficient humility so that the likes of Haughtney will be prepared to sit next to you in a cramped cockpit for hours at a time and enjoy your company might factor somewhere along the line?
X3 since you first posted on this forum you have done little but knock peoples noses out of joint. I think some of the points you make are fair but the delivery leaves a lot to be desired. Shocking though this may sound there are people that know more than your about Oxford's APP than you (although I don't pretend to be one of them).
If you think you can earn enough money "before and during" university to pay even a fraction of the cost of an integrated course (without your parents helping out) then you are in for a shock when you leave school.... 99% of people come out of university in debt.... however you will come out with thousands of pounds in your pocket!?! And you acuse everyone else of being naive. If your parents are prepared to support you financially through this then that is a wonderful thing and that does open up the integrated route for you which is a great way to train. But please do yourself a favour and show a little respect to others and they will then no doubt reciprocate.
Anyway can we get back to the topic.... perhaps those who have undergone modular training or are involved in recuriting into the industry are better positioned to comment that those still at school....
From what I have seen the ATP scheme offered by CTC for modular students seems like one of the most effective ways to get employed... although I am not sure how many people go through this route each year.... could anyone who has been through this scheme recently care to share some numbers??
Aside from the little blue book wouldn't you think that one of the most important aspects to getting that first job is your own personality?? If you come across as arrogant it probably won't matter if you have gone down the integrated or modular route. Maybe displaying sufficient humility so that the likes of Haughtney will be prepared to sit next to you in a cramped cockpit for hours at a time and enjoy your company might factor somewhere along the line?
X3 since you first posted on this forum you have done little but knock peoples noses out of joint. I think some of the points you make are fair but the delivery leaves a lot to be desired. Shocking though this may sound there are people that know more than your about Oxford's APP than you (although I don't pretend to be one of them).
If you think you can earn enough money "before and during" university to pay even a fraction of the cost of an integrated course (without your parents helping out) then you are in for a shock when you leave school.... 99% of people come out of university in debt.... however you will come out with thousands of pounds in your pocket!?! And you acuse everyone else of being naive. If your parents are prepared to support you financially through this then that is a wonderful thing and that does open up the integrated route for you which is a great way to train. But please do yourself a favour and show a little respect to others and they will then no doubt reciprocate.
Anyway can we get back to the topic.... perhaps those who have undergone modular training or are involved in recuriting into the industry are better positioned to comment that those still at school....
From what I have seen the ATP scheme offered by CTC for modular students seems like one of the most effective ways to get employed... although I am not sure how many people go through this route each year.... could anyone who has been through this scheme recently care to share some numbers??
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X3k5 I suggest you be quiet before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you already have. Attending one seminar, and misunderstanding much of what you were told, is no basis on which to construct an entire philosphy.
You really have no idea of what you speak. Do a little bit of genuine research into the history and derivation of the integrated course. Look into the CAP509 course and see the relationship between the two. Make no assumptions about 'what airlines want' that are not backed up by your own experience.
Above all, be quiet and listen to those who know a great deal more than you, and do not base all your arguments on the sales pitch of one company.
Scroggs
You really have no idea of what you speak. Do a little bit of genuine research into the history and derivation of the integrated course. Look into the CAP509 course and see the relationship between the two. Make no assumptions about 'what airlines want' that are not backed up by your own experience.
Above all, be quiet and listen to those who know a great deal more than you, and do not base all your arguments on the sales pitch of one company.
Scroggs
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From what I have seen the ATP scheme offered by CTC for modular students seems like one of the most effective ways to get employed
To all practical purposes, CTC stylee structured modular and OAT integrated achieve exactly the same thing, albeit with slightly different flying training requirements, and my assumption is that that is an e2e consistent single supplier, aptitude tested, adequately trained and examined student complete with a full paper train showing strengths and weaknesses. So has this anything to do with integrated really or everything to do with the recruitment service offered to both the student and to the employer? I suggest not. Perhaps we should categorise such structured, single supplier schemes as "Acadamy Flight Schools" or something, just so we don't get hung up on the "I" word.
If I am honest, if I were an Airline Chief Pilot, I would be somewhat motivated to find the best pilot for the least effort and risk. Could a pilot who has done a bit here and bit there really fulfil that requirement as well as a students history that is documented e2e by a single establishment?
With that in mind, I suspect the Oxford modular course fulfils that requirement 100%. What I do doubt for all but a few 'straight A' students is the quasi employment agency service.