The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam
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Modular V's integrated
Hi everyone!
My brain is frazzled. I want to know if paying the extra money for an integrated course is really worth it. The difference is about £20k. So I was wondering which sort of course people have been on and how long it took to get a job afterwards. Obviously, if paying the extra money means I'm more likely to get a job, then it must be worth it.
Thanks in advance!
My brain is frazzled. I want to know if paying the extra money for an integrated course is really worth it. The difference is about £20k. So I was wondering which sort of course people have been on and how long it took to get a job afterwards. Obviously, if paying the extra money means I'm more likely to get a job, then it must be worth it.Thanks in advance!
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Now your post is in the merged 'Integrated vs. Modular' thread, you can save yourself the bother of doing a search (it's so tiresome) and read the debates that went before you all in one place. Isn't that nice!
When you've finished reading the thread (ooh, about next Wednesday), let us know if you're any wiser!
Scroggs
When you've finished reading the thread (ooh, about next Wednesday), let us know if you're any wiser!
Scroggs
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*sigh*
Do we have to pander to people who don't know how to use the search button and merge so many threads? I know the thinking behind the merging threads, but to lump so many together and so far back...?
Not only is it a pain to wade through and work out what you've seen before and what you haven't, but not all of the threads are on the same topics. Yeah they are all related to Cabair or integrated vs modular or whatevers been merged, but there are differences in the questions asked. Often a threads question is influenced by the situation the person asking it is in and the answers are directly relevant to that person. When they're all lumped together its nigh on impossible to make head or tail of whos asking what and what they are replying too. So when I'm looking for someone who's asked a similar question and is in a similar situation any nuances or little tidbits are lost in a sea of back and forths.
I do sympathise Scroggs, I know questions get repeated that are very similar and its a frustration when people come on without reading any of the stickys and post the first thing thats on their mind without any research but does everything have to be dummed down for their sake? Stretch this analogy along and we'll end up with just five threads that are hundreds of pages long (The usuals..OAT, Int vs Mod, Sponsorship..etc Having said that, all of those should really go in Interviews, jobs & sponsorships freeing this one up for actual training related questions) and it really will take a week to get through one of them and find that piece of info you're looking for!
Merging threads isn't the end of the world I know. Some threads do need merging, if they crop up at the same time and on similar subjects then by all means prune things a bit (pun not intended). But does it have to be done to this extent?
Do we have to pander to people who don't know how to use the search button and merge so many threads? I know the thinking behind the merging threads, but to lump so many together and so far back...?
Not only is it a pain to wade through and work out what you've seen before and what you haven't, but not all of the threads are on the same topics. Yeah they are all related to Cabair or integrated vs modular or whatevers been merged, but there are differences in the questions asked. Often a threads question is influenced by the situation the person asking it is in and the answers are directly relevant to that person. When they're all lumped together its nigh on impossible to make head or tail of whos asking what and what they are replying too. So when I'm looking for someone who's asked a similar question and is in a similar situation any nuances or little tidbits are lost in a sea of back and forths.
I do sympathise Scroggs, I know questions get repeated that are very similar and its a frustration when people come on without reading any of the stickys and post the first thing thats on their mind without any research but does everything have to be dummed down for their sake? Stretch this analogy along and we'll end up with just five threads that are hundreds of pages long (The usuals..OAT, Int vs Mod, Sponsorship..etc Having said that, all of those should really go in Interviews, jobs & sponsorships freeing this one up for actual training related questions) and it really will take a week to get through one of them and find that piece of info you're looking for!
Merging threads isn't the end of the world I know. Some threads do need merging, if they crop up at the same time and on similar subjects then by all means prune things a bit (pun not intended). But does it have to be done to this extent?
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Well, I went to Flyer magazine's show at Heath Row on Saturday (Got up at 5 am to get there!) There was a seminar specifically aimed at people who wanted to become commercial pilots. At the front were 5(?) pilot recruiters from major airlines, a guy from GAPAN and one from BALPA. I asked them what their thoughts were on modular V's integrated with regards to getting a first job.
They all said that at the moment they would only accept low hours (200 - 500) pilots from integrated schools. There were a couple which said that sometimes they would accept low hour modular pilots and most of them said that in the past they had accepted low hour modular.
Their reasoning for this is that although both routes provided the same qualifications, they know exactly what goes on in integrated schools, particularly "recognized" ones. Students are disciplined in their training every day and learn not only about how to fly, but about the aviation business and what it's like to work for an airline.
Whether these people's opinions are right or wrong. I am going to pay the extra and go integrated (if Jerez will have me!) simply because the people who I will be sending CV's to in a year or so have told me that they prefer integrated students.
They all said that at the moment they would only accept low hours (200 - 500) pilots from integrated schools. There were a couple which said that sometimes they would accept low hour modular pilots and most of them said that in the past they had accepted low hour modular.
Their reasoning for this is that although both routes provided the same qualifications, they know exactly what goes on in integrated schools, particularly "recognized" ones. Students are disciplined in their training every day and learn not only about how to fly, but about the aviation business and what it's like to work for an airline.
Whether these people's opinions are right or wrong. I am going to pay the extra and go integrated (if Jerez will have me!) simply because the people who I will be sending CV's to in a year or so have told me that they prefer integrated students.
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BA, flybe and Thompsonfly were all there. I think that they were "only integrated" for low hours pilots. But I can't rememeber for sure which ones were. What I am sure of is that of all the airlines that were there, they all seemed to prefer integrated.
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Well I know that Thompsonfly and FlyBe have fairly recently taken on or interviewed modular graduates on an equal basis to integrated graduates. I know some of the people concerned!
We are now certainly back to the position regards demand for pilots that we enjoyed in the 1999/2000 period. I therefore think its worth paying the premium for Integrated training IF you can afford it without undue hardship.
The reason for my change of opinion is that now, once again, the big three FTOs are getting regular calls from airlines asking them to draw up a quick list of upcoming graduates for them to interview. If you bought the CFI a beer at the Christmas party and kept your nose clean it really can be a direct route straight to a flightdeck.
Similarly if you can get onto a CTC scheme then you've no worries about getting a job at the end of it.
But be quick - the good times have a habit of stopping more suddenly than you would like.
Cheers
WWW
The reason for my change of opinion is that now, once again, the big three FTOs are getting regular calls from airlines asking them to draw up a quick list of upcoming graduates for them to interview. If you bought the CFI a beer at the Christmas party and kept your nose clean it really can be a direct route straight to a flightdeck.
Similarly if you can get onto a CTC scheme then you've no worries about getting a job at the end of it.
But be quick - the good times have a habit of stopping more suddenly than you would like.
Cheers
WWW
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These integrated vs. modular threads are very interesting but cannot really be answered as nobody has done both therefore can't compare.
However, take it from someone on an integrated course, unless you have the money burning a hole in your pocket go modular.
However, take it from someone on an integrated course, unless you have the money burning a hole in your pocket go modular.
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Interesting comment Mr Stricker.... care to elaborate as to wht you feel that way?
Normally integrated students fight tooth and nail to justify why they have spent the extra money...
Normally integrated students fight tooth and nail to justify why they have spent the extra money...
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re Flyer Exhibition, this is what was said on sat
BA - only integrated
Flybe - both
Thomsonfly -both
MyTravel -both
However ALL said there were definate positives for the Integrated route reasons being, team environment, self discipline (uniforms...), training under one roof, school references
Comments on the modular route were that, you should aim to do your modular training with 1 FTO, on a managed scheme, rather than self managed (prob explains why oat and cabair now have 'waypoint' and 'pathfinder' mod courses)
One of the key points from the whole talk was PERSONALITY. at the end of the day everyone has the same licence. Airlines are here to employ a human being, therefore the most important factor is YOU AS A PERSON. (they referred to it as being locked in a telephone booth with another person for 7 hours at a time- they dont want arrogance or friction in the cockpit)
BA - only integrated
Flybe - both
Thomsonfly -both
MyTravel -both
However ALL said there were definate positives for the Integrated route reasons being, team environment, self discipline (uniforms...), training under one roof, school references
Comments on the modular route were that, you should aim to do your modular training with 1 FTO, on a managed scheme, rather than self managed (prob explains why oat and cabair now have 'waypoint' and 'pathfinder' mod courses)
One of the key points from the whole talk was PERSONALITY. at the end of the day everyone has the same licence. Airlines are here to employ a human being, therefore the most important factor is YOU AS A PERSON. (they referred to it as being locked in a telephone booth with another person for 7 hours at a time- they dont want arrogance or friction in the cockpit)
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Whether these people's opinions are right or wrong. I am going to pay the extra and go integrated (if Jerez will have me!) simply because the people who I will be sending CV's to in a year or so have told me that they prefer integrated students.
Hmmmm, those four airlines that you’ve committed on are not the only airlines in the world you know!
Personally I think that anyone undergoing or considering undergoing pilot training should really have to have a passion for it and be prepared to fly practically anything for anyone!
Sorry Willewanger I don’t mean to pick on you but your post doesn’t exactly scream that message out. It sounds like you’re only interested in flying for the airlines. I guess if you’re paying top dollar for the integrated training you’re going to need the salary of an airline pilot! The only problem there though is that it probably wouldn’t be enough (if you’re borrowing the money of course).
I think you need to slow down a bit in your decision making, by the sounds if it, those recruiters have managed to persuade you to spend an extra 20-30K (don’t quote me on the cost difference) simply because they ‘prefer’ integrated students at this moment in time. I don’t know from experience but I’d imagine that what they prefer and what they actually take are two different things! I mean, they’d also prefer you to have a type rating and 500hrs on type but they don’t get it! Just imagine how you’d feel if in six months time they said they didn’t care if you were integrated? You’d have spent the extra 20-30K for no reason.
I think people lose sight of the true value of money, its REAL money you’re spending! Just think how long it would take to pay that back, and afford to live at the same time! Think about what the practical implications of paying that amount back would be.
I don’t know how people sleep at night with 60-70K hanging round their neck! It would certainly scare the crap out of me! I know this has all been said before but what the heck!
Rant over!
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Although BA say only integrated, once you have 500 multicrew they don't care where you come from.
This remains as ever if you have the money and or freedom do integrated,
if you need to work to keep down cost do modular,
try as hard as you can, and try to keep everyone on side,
you never know who you are talking too in this small world!
This remains as ever if you have the money and or freedom do integrated,
if you need to work to keep down cost do modular,
try as hard as you can, and try to keep everyone on side,
you never know who you are talking too in this small world!
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Hi
Hmmm what a debate, my thoughts on the subject (the same as my thoughts on life) if your going to do it, do it properly!!! thus meaning im intergrated though and though baby, but hey each to there own.
Its like a private school and your bog standard common comprehensive, but hey, each to there own!!!
Its like a Pink Lady and Granny Smith, Who goes for grannies when you can have a MILF.
At the end of the day each to there own, grannies mite be your thing!!!
Pink
Hmmm what a debate, my thoughts on the subject (the same as my thoughts on life) if your going to do it, do it properly!!! thus meaning im intergrated though and though baby, but hey each to there own.
Its like a private school and your bog standard common comprehensive, but hey, each to there own!!!
Its like a Pink Lady and Granny Smith, Who goes for grannies when you can have a MILF.
At the end of the day each to there own, grannies mite be your thing!!!
Pink
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Hi Pink_Lady, welcome to pprune,
I totally agree with your quote "If your going to do things, do them properly",
even spelling and grammar!
love
Mcgoo
ex bog standard comprehensive student
current modular student and full-time worker
I totally agree with your quote "If your going to do things, do them properly",
even spelling and grammar!
love
Mcgoo
ex bog standard comprehensive student
current modular student and full-time worker
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Its like a private school and your bog standard common comprehensive, but hey, each to there own!!!
Sorry, just couldn't resist!
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hello slayer...
well, it looks like we're really going to have a heated debate now!
I went to private school and am glad that I did. but I'm not going to be drawn into that debate, we'll need another thread for that!
Fortunately my career in IT has meant that I am able to pay cash for the integrated course. I do have "a passion for flying" in fact it's all I've ever wanted to do since I was about 5. *but* I also have a passion for money (oo-er! someone who's greedy! aren't I bad!) I love flying, but I don't want to live the life of a pauper.
It's apparent to me that integrated students are more likely to get a "jet job" as their first job than modular. Often, modular students get other jobs (e.g. instructing or air taxi) before going on to work for airlines. This effectively puts their career progression back by a year (ish). I've just thrown together a possible profit and loss account for an integrated student and a modular student. It assumes that within 18 months of starting, both get jobs, the integrated student gets an airline job (pay scale similar to the one on easyjet's website) The modular student gets a lower paid pilot job for the first year to get the 500 hours he needs to get into an airline. By the end of the 6th year of employment, they are both captains earning £66k, but the integrated student is £31k better off with more jet time.
True, the integrated student might not get a job at all and the modular student might go straight into the right had seat of a jet. But this is less likely.
OK, time to put the fire-proof jacket on and hide!
well, it looks like we're really going to have a heated debate now!
I went to private school and am glad that I did. but I'm not going to be drawn into that debate, we'll need another thread for that!
Fortunately my career in IT has meant that I am able to pay cash for the integrated course. I do have "a passion for flying" in fact it's all I've ever wanted to do since I was about 5. *but* I also have a passion for money (oo-er! someone who's greedy! aren't I bad!) I love flying, but I don't want to live the life of a pauper.
It's apparent to me that integrated students are more likely to get a "jet job" as their first job than modular. Often, modular students get other jobs (e.g. instructing or air taxi) before going on to work for airlines. This effectively puts their career progression back by a year (ish). I've just thrown together a possible profit and loss account for an integrated student and a modular student. It assumes that within 18 months of starting, both get jobs, the integrated student gets an airline job (pay scale similar to the one on easyjet's website) The modular student gets a lower paid pilot job for the first year to get the 500 hours he needs to get into an airline. By the end of the 6th year of employment, they are both captains earning £66k, but the integrated student is £31k better off with more jet time.
True, the integrated student might not get a job at all and the modular student might go straight into the right had seat of a jet. But this is less likely.
OK, time to put the fire-proof jacket on and hide!
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Wellie wanger did you factor into your spreadsheet the "opportunity cost" of giving up work for a full year and a half to do an integrated course?
Going the modular route you can stay in employment for the entire course which means you never have a day not earning.... in earnings terms that can for many people be equivalent to the entire cost of the course.
Each route suits different people but you seem to be imlpying that going down the integrated route is a lower risk from a financial viewpoint.... that smells badly of falling for the very effective marketing machines of one or two of the integrated schools hook line and sinker...
Going the modular route you can stay in employment for the entire course which means you never have a day not earning.... in earnings terms that can for many people be equivalent to the entire cost of the course.
Each route suits different people but you seem to be imlpying that going down the integrated route is a lower risk from a financial viewpoint.... that smells badly of falling for the very effective marketing machines of one or two of the integrated schools hook line and sinker...