The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam
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Mad_Jock
I must admit that was a few years ago when this hot bed of recruitment was just a wet dream.
I know my CP loves intergrated but most of the chaps/chappeses comming through are a mix of everything.
I guess at the momment it really doesn't matter as long as you are the "RIGHT" person.
Some airlines are still doing Intergrated courses others are doing modular, at this particular time i really dont think it matters.
I've said it before and i'll say it again it's who you know rather than what you know and the "We'll take a monkey with a CPL", is still some time off but definitely on the horizon".
Silver
No problem. I know what you meant and the manner in which you meant it. Hot heads will always be arround but as you know not for long.
Scroggs
This may well be the answer for many and is probably most correct.
I thought BA were still picking the cream of the crop from OAT's intergrated APP?
I must admit that was a few years ago when this hot bed of recruitment was just a wet dream.
I know my CP loves intergrated but most of the chaps/chappeses comming through are a mix of everything.
I guess at the momment it really doesn't matter as long as you are the "RIGHT" person.
Some airlines are still doing Intergrated courses others are doing modular, at this particular time i really dont think it matters.
I've said it before and i'll say it again it's who you know rather than what you know and the "We'll take a monkey with a CPL", is still some time off but definitely on the horizon".
Silver
No problem. I know what you meant and the manner in which you meant it. Hot heads will always be arround but as you know not for long.
Scroggs
if they want reliable ab-initio pilots, and they're not going to provide the training themselves, they have to sub-contract to large organisations that run formal, audited and accountable courses. BA used to understand that, Lufthansa and Air France still do, as do the RAF and most other military organisations.
I thought BA were still picking the cream of the crop from OAT's intergrated APP?
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yeah scroggs got the point i think. Perhaps if modular was made more accountable and training records made available to airlines we wouldn't even be dicussing this topic? I guess thats where all the cost starts to pile up and it might as well be intergrated 
food for thought though
x-Atreyu-x
food for thought though
x-Atreyu-x
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BA are taking a few ab-initio guys, but not just from Oxford. As I understand it, they've been knocking on the doors of all the integrated schools. I don't know if they've been to CTC, though. However, the number they're taking pales into insignificance compared to the Direct Entry route - and for that, you need a minimum of only 400 hours on a useful type.
The problem with making a modular course more accountable is that it's expensive, which nullifies one of its major advantages to the Wannabe! It also would probably mean the end of any unsuprvised hour-building - i.e. more money. The major airlines would prefer baby pilots to be given to them having continuously trained from PPL to TR without a break, preferably with continuity of instruction and reporting. That's exactly what APP and the others offer; whether they are integrated or modular is irrelevant - they all cost about the same! However, these schemes don't (yet) output enough people to satisfy the airlines' demands, and the smaller operators can't afford the fees involved and so won't use them unless they are forced to by legislation.
At the moment, there are plenty of jobs out there so the non-structured course student still stands a chance with that jet job. Once the cycle turns (as it always does), then the structured-course stude may have a serious advantage - until recruiting stops altogether, as it frequently has in the past. Of course, that advantage only lasts while the student is current and very recently graduated. Once a few months have passed, the advantage over the non-structured student is considerably reduced.
As always, what course of action you take is something of a gamble. That's always been the case, and is unlikely to change.
Scroggs
The problem with making a modular course more accountable is that it's expensive, which nullifies one of its major advantages to the Wannabe! It also would probably mean the end of any unsuprvised hour-building - i.e. more money. The major airlines would prefer baby pilots to be given to them having continuously trained from PPL to TR without a break, preferably with continuity of instruction and reporting. That's exactly what APP and the others offer; whether they are integrated or modular is irrelevant - they all cost about the same! However, these schemes don't (yet) output enough people to satisfy the airlines' demands, and the smaller operators can't afford the fees involved and so won't use them unless they are forced to by legislation.
At the moment, there are plenty of jobs out there so the non-structured course student still stands a chance with that jet job. Once the cycle turns (as it always does), then the structured-course stude may have a serious advantage - until recruiting stops altogether, as it frequently has in the past. Of course, that advantage only lasts while the student is current and very recently graduated. Once a few months have passed, the advantage over the non-structured student is considerably reduced.
As always, what course of action you take is something of a gamble. That's always been the case, and is unlikely to change.
Scroggs
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Its easier to fit a low hours integrated pilot into an EFIS cockpit than a similar modular pilot
Its not that i am anti intergrated. What i am anti is the marketing and the perception of what you will get after a Intergrated training course. And as people have said the ONLY advantage you get is for your first job and first type rating. After that all the advantage is gone.
And from the poeple I know recently who have got jobs its more about your life experence than where you trained.
If you have 2 applicants for a job one who went straight from school/Uni to OAT. Hobbies football, and pulling the oppersite sex, and drinking alot (Unfortunatly Manx have gone you would have been well in with them). And you have a Modular trained pilot same age who was say a special constable, An officer in the TA, did VSO in some hell hole.
Your overall chances of getting a job after training in my opinion would be enhanced more by running around Sennybridge with a gat getting paid 2k a year by the TA than spending an additional 20k to fund a huge marketing deptment in one of the Intergrated schools.
And i know for a fact that i was included in OAT figures for getting a job as a modular student. When all i did with them was the ground school.
They are grasping at straws to try and show that you get a job with OAT on your CV.
http://www.oxfordaviation.net/career/career-03.htm
And you can see how great the marketing dept at OAT is they can't even add 2 totals together apparently if you look at BMI baby 12+6 equals 20. And the totals at the bottom 87+56 equals 150. They can't even fiddle the numbers properly.
If it was 5k more i would say go for Intergrated. 10k I would be bitching but might go for it. But 20k+ no bloody way.
MJ
Edited to add you can see that also out of 23 companys that Oxford Graduates have got jobs there is only 3 that have any real appeared preference for the APP program. So thats 13% of the jobs. If we take an average class size of 15 every 3 months and out of that the top 5 get put forward for those jobs (33% of the class). I know the numbers are made up but if you take the real class sizes and I am sure the current students can tell us and the number that go straight off into emplyment in the first six months. That means you have increased your chances of getting a jet job by 4.5% in the first 6 months all for 20k-30k more than a modular graduate. but of course that list of employers is far from complete so when you take all the growing companys you could maybe add another 10 that are recruiting currently. It increases your chances of getting a job by less than 4%.
You would be better sticking 20k on the fav in the Grand National than paying the extra for the Intergrated course.
Last edited by mad_jock; 10th Oct 2005 at 13:31.
Ahh, the Nature v Nurture debate for the flying community.
There is only one advantage to an Integrated course. It is the fact that an airline may *need* FO's and will call that school and ask for x students to be listed to attend an interview if they are due to graduate between date z and y and then only if the CFI likes them.
Now, this simply stopped happening after Sept 11th and didn't start happening again until about a year ago in a very small way. Flybe's sudden phone call to OATS was the alert call and since then the recruiting by several well known airlines has confirmed the fact that we are back to a Pre Sept 11th state of affairs.
This has all been before.
What happened last time (and it was called 1997) is that loads of people suddenly jacked in the day job and enroled in pilot school causing a glut a year later. ALL FTO's are doing a roaring trade at the moment.
My view therefore is that since Sept 12th 2001 there was little merit in paying the premium to go Integrated. That this started to change 12 months ago and that the premium from here on in MAY be worth paying.
But it is a gamble. UNLESS an airline DOES look to pick up some Integrated students and you ARE going to graduate within the correct dates and the CFI DOES like you - then its a premium wasted.
The actual quality of training is no different and sometimes much better at the good Modular schools.
The premium for Integrated is balanced against the chance of an airline calling your school and offering you a job a few weeks later.
Its your call. Its tricky. I'm a pessimist when it comes to careers so I'd save the money and go Modular. But that's just me.
Good luck,
WWW
There is only one advantage to an Integrated course. It is the fact that an airline may *need* FO's and will call that school and ask for x students to be listed to attend an interview if they are due to graduate between date z and y and then only if the CFI likes them.
Now, this simply stopped happening after Sept 11th and didn't start happening again until about a year ago in a very small way. Flybe's sudden phone call to OATS was the alert call and since then the recruiting by several well known airlines has confirmed the fact that we are back to a Pre Sept 11th state of affairs.
This has all been before.
What happened last time (and it was called 1997) is that loads of people suddenly jacked in the day job and enroled in pilot school causing a glut a year later. ALL FTO's are doing a roaring trade at the moment.
My view therefore is that since Sept 12th 2001 there was little merit in paying the premium to go Integrated. That this started to change 12 months ago and that the premium from here on in MAY be worth paying.
But it is a gamble. UNLESS an airline DOES look to pick up some Integrated students and you ARE going to graduate within the correct dates and the CFI DOES like you - then its a premium wasted.
The actual quality of training is no different and sometimes much better at the good Modular schools.
The premium for Integrated is balanced against the chance of an airline calling your school and offering you a job a few weeks later.
Its your call. Its tricky. I'm a pessimist when it comes to careers so I'd save the money and go Modular. But that's just me.
Good luck,
WWW
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Actually the price of the modular courses is pretty good at OAT.
http://www.oxfordaviation.net/skills/mod-05.htm
The proffesional package 1 seems about right
CPL - MEP - IR - MCC £20,295
Distance learning & ground school £2,700
Exams £700
Even PPL £6,000
Commercial flight tests £3,000
Hour building in the states call it 50 bucks an hour £5,000
Stick on 2k for living expenses
And £4,000 for cock ups.
Thats £44,000
Now thats worth thinking about. Your PPL will be done by instructors who will have been through the OAT QA process. So that should keep you in good stead for CPL. So even though it seems a bit expensive its proberly worth it. The CPL instructors will be the same ones as the Intergrated course as will the IR.
You could do it cheaper but only by 3-4k and you would still have Oxford all over your CV. The airline would still have access to all the records.
MJ
BTW congrats WWW on your wedding and LHS move. Have you started smelling of wee yet?
http://www.oxfordaviation.net/skills/mod-05.htm
The proffesional package 1 seems about right
CPL - MEP - IR - MCC £20,295
Distance learning & ground school £2,700
Exams £700
Even PPL £6,000
Commercial flight tests £3,000
Hour building in the states call it 50 bucks an hour £5,000
Stick on 2k for living expenses
And £4,000 for cock ups.
Thats £44,000
Now thats worth thinking about. Your PPL will be done by instructors who will have been through the OAT QA process. So that should keep you in good stead for CPL. So even though it seems a bit expensive its proberly worth it. The CPL instructors will be the same ones as the Intergrated course as will the IR.
You could do it cheaper but only by 3-4k and you would still have Oxford all over your CV. The airline would still have access to all the records.
MJ
BTW congrats WWW on your wedding and LHS move. Have you started smelling of wee yet?
Last edited by mad_jock; 10th Oct 2005 at 14:44.
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I Have to Agree totally with Scroggs. It was nt long ago, maybe three or Four years when most pilots were looking over their shoulders, worrying about their Jobs.
Now we have situations where the FTO's are marketing these high profiled Courses, (with Nice Profit Margins to keep those accountants happy), and seem to promise the world. A lot of their Students do well, and nowadays end up in the RHS of a Variety of Airlines from Small Regionals to Loco's to Legacys. But Not All.
So Essentially the FTO's, now sell their Branded Intergated/Modular Courses to the Targeted Audiences. Integrated Students in some FTos will quite openly assume they have a better chance of employment. 1-0 to the Marketeers.
Esentially, while integrated might be percieved as an easy 'skip the queue' tactic, Nailing the First Job is down to a bit of Luck and some Good Timing, also helps if you can perform in the Sim Test/Interview. Having Contacts will also assist, and combination of any of these factors could easily get the Job, and then would it matter if your were Intergrated or Modular?
Now we have situations where the FTO's are marketing these high profiled Courses, (with Nice Profit Margins to keep those accountants happy), and seem to promise the world. A lot of their Students do well, and nowadays end up in the RHS of a Variety of Airlines from Small Regionals to Loco's to Legacys. But Not All.
So Essentially the FTO's, now sell their Branded Intergated/Modular Courses to the Targeted Audiences. Integrated Students in some FTos will quite openly assume they have a better chance of employment. 1-0 to the Marketeers.
Esentially, while integrated might be percieved as an easy 'skip the queue' tactic, Nailing the First Job is down to a bit of Luck and some Good Timing, also helps if you can perform in the Sim Test/Interview. Having Contacts will also assist, and combination of any of these factors could easily get the Job, and then would it matter if your were Intergrated or Modular?
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I would like to point out that all schools, approved by the UK CAA have to keep training records, regardless of integrated or modular - even distance learning ATPLs requires progress tests that must be completed and marks are all held by the school you attend. You cannot apply for your ATPL exams unless you have completed all required progress tests.
If I wanted to, I could collate every single test, flying lesson report, instructors grading and examination result to build my own picture of my journey from zero to hero.
But as a qualified modular guy, the grass looks greener in Oxford, Cranfield and Jerez....
It's bloody tough getting a break into the industry.
If I wanted to, I could collate every single test, flying lesson report, instructors grading and examination result to build my own picture of my journey from zero to hero.
But as a qualified modular guy, the grass looks greener in Oxford, Cranfield and Jerez....
It's bloody tough getting a break into the industry.
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This month's 'Log' - the house magazine of BALPA - has some very interesting things to say about the training and recruiting situation in UK. For those of you who are not members, I would commend you to consider joining. As unemployed pilots under training, it is extremely cheap.
Scroggs
Scroggs
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Scroggs,
BA has been knocking on CTC's door & cadets are going through their selection process.
Everyone,
There's been some interesting analysis of this subject but ultimately, I'd say that:
1) Chance of Placement with an airline.
2) Ability to finance training.
.. are the KEY priorities for someone (who hasn't already accumulated a significant amount of experience) looking to undergo training for a 'jet' job.
I think the issue of 'Modular' v 'Integrated' is a variable which is related to the above points yet is subordinate to them.
593...
BA has been knocking on CTC's door & cadets are going through their selection process.
Everyone,
There's been some interesting analysis of this subject but ultimately, I'd say that:
1) Chance of Placement with an airline.
2) Ability to finance training.
.. are the KEY priorities for someone (who hasn't already accumulated a significant amount of experience) looking to undergo training for a 'jet' job.
I think the issue of 'Modular' v 'Integrated' is a variable which is related to the above points yet is subordinate to them.
593...
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What does it say in this month's BALPA Log magazine then Scroggs about training?
I'm not a member (yet) and by the time I become one that copy will be in the recycling plant!
Cheers
I'm not a member (yet) and by the time I become one that copy will be in the recycling plant!
Cheers
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Quite a lot. I don't have the time to attempt to reproduce it here, and I imagine it's covered by copyright so please no-one else do so without the permission of the publisher.
There are articles entitled, "Pilot Labour Supply - should BALPA be involved?"; "University Degrees - a step to airline management"; "BALPA Career Services Re-launch"; and "Professional Pilot Training - what is the future?", as well as information articles about Jump Pilot flying and Simulator Training Services Ltd (BAC 111 sim operators).
Back issues are no doubt available to new members.
Scroggs
There are articles entitled, "Pilot Labour Supply - should BALPA be involved?"; "University Degrees - a step to airline management"; "BALPA Career Services Re-launch"; and "Professional Pilot Training - what is the future?", as well as information articles about Jump Pilot flying and Simulator Training Services Ltd (BAC 111 sim operators).
Back issues are no doubt available to new members.
Scroggs
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Modular V's integrated
Hi everyone!
I'm trying to raise the last bit of funding to finish my flight training.
So far i have got FAA PPL,SE/IR,JAR CPL,MEP and have about 210 hours.
Up to this point i reckon my training bill not including living costs but inclusive of flights to/from USA, visas, ATPL theoretical course,ground/flight exam fees amounts to approximately £32,000.
!
I now need to convince a potential creditor that this is quite standard to be paying out this kind of money when undertaking self sponsored flight training, and try to borrow £14,000 to do my FAA IR conversion,MCC and FI,
bringing my total bill to a whopping £46,000
I'd be very interested to get some ideas on the amounts of hard earned/borrowed money you have all parted with to follow your dreams!!??
Thanks
Ramshorn
I'm trying to raise the last bit of funding to finish my flight training.
So far i have got FAA PPL,SE/IR,JAR CPL,MEP and have about 210 hours.
Up to this point i reckon my training bill not including living costs but inclusive of flights to/from USA, visas, ATPL theoretical course,ground/flight exam fees amounts to approximately £32,000.
!I now need to convince a potential creditor that this is quite standard to be paying out this kind of money when undertaking self sponsored flight training, and try to borrow £14,000 to do my FAA IR conversion,MCC and FI,
bringing my total bill to a whopping £46,000
I'd be very interested to get some ideas on the amounts of hard earned/borrowed money you have all parted with to follow your dreams!!??
Thanks
Ramshorn
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Modular or not
Hi guys
just a quick one to ask some comments on this.
long story short : having blown the opportunity of a sponsorship, and not given up on the idea of flying "professionally" (to be honset failing the sponsorship actually made me want more) I am here looking at possibilities, like many of us do anyway. So, to cut the crap short :
Not being able to afford a cadet programme, or a full training package (say the likes of Oxford's APP) I have no choice but to look at modular.
Now, being 26 going for 27, the questions are :
- Working my way up through the training and perhaps coming to the real world with a frozen ATPL at the age of 31-32 : would you consider that too "old" ?
- Do you think they (Airlines) look down on modular students as opposed to cadets or sponsored ones ? I wouldn't think so, a modular student probably worked his butt off by working hard to finance his training and it's a lot more motivated than someone who had all paid upfront by daddy. But what would you say ?
- Not being in a cadet programme, you would have to build up your hours after PPL (up to 150 I believe ?) by yourself. How difficult is that ? Does it mean 150 hours after your PPL, or including PPL (therefore PPL + 105 hrs)
just a quick one to ask some comments on this.
long story short : having blown the opportunity of a sponsorship, and not given up on the idea of flying "professionally" (to be honset failing the sponsorship actually made me want more) I am here looking at possibilities, like many of us do anyway. So, to cut the crap short :
Not being able to afford a cadet programme, or a full training package (say the likes of Oxford's APP) I have no choice but to look at modular.
Now, being 26 going for 27, the questions are :
- Working my way up through the training and perhaps coming to the real world with a frozen ATPL at the age of 31-32 : would you consider that too "old" ?
- Do you think they (Airlines) look down on modular students as opposed to cadets or sponsored ones ? I wouldn't think so, a modular student probably worked his butt off by working hard to finance his training and it's a lot more motivated than someone who had all paid upfront by daddy. But what would you say ?
- Not being in a cadet programme, you would have to build up your hours after PPL (up to 150 I believe ?) by yourself. How difficult is that ? Does it mean 150 hours after your PPL, or including PPL (therefore PPL + 105 hrs)
Last edited by scroggs; 24th Mar 2006 at 07:03.
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people can answer you with lot of bla bla...
what about if you win the EU lottery in 2 days,
what about if ben laden blow up all petrol reserves in this world?
would you go modular?
nobody can really answer for you, but for me, forget aviation and have a good life with a nice girl...or go the cheapest way if you want really fly.Each time a pilot is unemployed, it is the society(us) who has to pay!
what about if you win the EU lottery in 2 days,
what about if ben laden blow up all petrol reserves in this world?
would you go modular?
nobody can really answer for you, but for me, forget aviation and have a good life with a nice girl...or go the cheapest way if you want really fly.Each time a pilot is unemployed, it is the society(us) who has to pay!
Last edited by scroggs; 24th Mar 2006 at 07:03.
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Ignore A320. He has found it difficult to get a job, but as you can see he has a poor attitude, that he has always displayed here, so it is hardly surprising. On the rare occasions he has asked for help here, rather than his whinges under various names, he has ignored attempts to help. You get a job by personality in this business, because the people selecting you know they might have to work closely with you!
Why should you finish aged 31-32? Can you not complete a modular package in a year or two? I was about the same age as you are when I started in 2000. I hit the problems of late 2001 having finished that summer, so only recently started my first "proper" flying job, aged 32, but there is no reason you should not get there much more quickly with a much more buoyant market.
Some airlines have an official policy of taking only integrated students for low hour intake. These however take very few low-hour at all, nearly all have strict age restrictions and some actually to take modular students anyway. There are other flying jobs around that are harder to get if you take an integrated course.
150 hours includes the PPL, so about 100 hours to build. Not difficult at all, can be great fun. Most important thing is to use it to improve your flying, not jsut "burn holes in the sky". If you can afford to fly it in the UK, flying with an instuctor about every 10 hours just to make sure you are keeping up your skills, so your CPL goes smoothly! There are ways of making it really cheap. I would suggest you look at buying a share in an aircraft. You can fly for about £50 an hour, then sell the share on (perhaps to another hour builder!). Fly to the channel islands or abroad to pick up duty draw back on fuel (assuing your flying a petrol, not a diesel aircrat). Get your friends to share the cost as you give them a flight much more cheaply than they could find otherwise. Use flights as presents you would have to buy anyway (great wedding presents - you are at the age your mates will be pairing off rapodly soon! Mine are just having kids and divorcing, a process more expensive than learning to fly!). Set yourself a challenge, maybe with a friend (another hour builder?) to go somewhere, the far end of the UK or across Europe.
Enjoy!
Why should you finish aged 31-32? Can you not complete a modular package in a year or two? I was about the same age as you are when I started in 2000. I hit the problems of late 2001 having finished that summer, so only recently started my first "proper" flying job, aged 32, but there is no reason you should not get there much more quickly with a much more buoyant market.
Some airlines have an official policy of taking only integrated students for low hour intake. These however take very few low-hour at all, nearly all have strict age restrictions and some actually to take modular students anyway. There are other flying jobs around that are harder to get if you take an integrated course.
150 hours includes the PPL, so about 100 hours to build. Not difficult at all, can be great fun. Most important thing is to use it to improve your flying, not jsut "burn holes in the sky". If you can afford to fly it in the UK, flying with an instuctor about every 10 hours just to make sure you are keeping up your skills, so your CPL goes smoothly! There are ways of making it really cheap. I would suggest you look at buying a share in an aircraft. You can fly for about £50 an hour, then sell the share on (perhaps to another hour builder!). Fly to the channel islands or abroad to pick up duty draw back on fuel (assuing your flying a petrol, not a diesel aircrat). Get your friends to share the cost as you give them a flight much more cheaply than they could find otherwise. Use flights as presents you would have to buy anyway (great wedding presents - you are at the age your mates will be pairing off rapodly soon! Mine are just having kids and divorcing, a process more expensive than learning to fly!). Set yourself a challenge, maybe with a friend (another hour builder?) to go somewhere, the far end of the UK or across Europe.
Enjoy!
Last edited by scroggs; 24th Mar 2006 at 07:03.
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Hey,
If you are really motivated, have self discipline, and the right attitude, there are no reasons why you won't be able to find a job.
I am modular myself. When I started flying, I didn't know anyone in aviation so I thought the only way for me to achieve my dreams is to work very hard. So that’s what I did, and even during my hours building I tried to be as rigorous as I could to improve my flying skills. An instructor appreciated my hard work and recommended me to a para-dropping centre. I only had a PPL and 200+ hours. During my theoretical ATPL, CPL and IR, I was going almost every week end to a parachute club 4 hours away from my FTO. Sometimes I had to drive 4 hours after 6 hours of flying. I continued hard working and networking. Found a job on a small turbine aircraft, just by sending a CV, while I was still training on my instrument rating. I started the rating on the day after my IR test. And now I am building up turbine time. As I am getting more experience, I am realising that I am interesting more and more employers. Today I got a call from a guy asking me if I wanted to do a bit of air taxi. That’s more hours, and IFR experience. I am slowly getting closer to the experience necessary to interest a company operating king airs where friends could recommend me.
So you see, my point behind all this is that I started with no connections and not a lot of money. Through hard work and networking, I am slowly climbing the ladder, and I intend to make sure that nothing will stop me from reaching my oldest dream which is to fly the 747.
Some pilot's strategy to find a job is to try and convince wannabes to quit, to blame the entire world and to buy type ratings and say that he/she did that because he is a victim of the system. Many pilots don’t find jobs because they spend all their time sitting around doing nothing (Or complaining on Pprune)
My strategy was to move my bottom, and I hope to have 1000 hours before the end of the year.
And the good news behind all this is: I am not the only one for whom it works. I sometimes have phone calls from friends proposing me to take their jobs because they found a better one.
When someone helps me, I make sure that I can help him in return to thank him. Maybe one day, someone I helped will be a 747 recruiter
If you are a hard worker, you ll easily get respected, and if you get respected, you ll get help.
If you really want it, then just go for it.
Good Luck
Winch
If you are really motivated, have self discipline, and the right attitude, there are no reasons why you won't be able to find a job.
I am modular myself. When I started flying, I didn't know anyone in aviation so I thought the only way for me to achieve my dreams is to work very hard. So that’s what I did, and even during my hours building I tried to be as rigorous as I could to improve my flying skills. An instructor appreciated my hard work and recommended me to a para-dropping centre. I only had a PPL and 200+ hours. During my theoretical ATPL, CPL and IR, I was going almost every week end to a parachute club 4 hours away from my FTO. Sometimes I had to drive 4 hours after 6 hours of flying. I continued hard working and networking. Found a job on a small turbine aircraft, just by sending a CV, while I was still training on my instrument rating. I started the rating on the day after my IR test. And now I am building up turbine time. As I am getting more experience, I am realising that I am interesting more and more employers. Today I got a call from a guy asking me if I wanted to do a bit of air taxi. That’s more hours, and IFR experience. I am slowly getting closer to the experience necessary to interest a company operating king airs where friends could recommend me.
So you see, my point behind all this is that I started with no connections and not a lot of money. Through hard work and networking, I am slowly climbing the ladder, and I intend to make sure that nothing will stop me from reaching my oldest dream which is to fly the 747.
Some pilot's strategy to find a job is to try and convince wannabes to quit, to blame the entire world and to buy type ratings and say that he/she did that because he is a victim of the system. Many pilots don’t find jobs because they spend all their time sitting around doing nothing (Or complaining on Pprune)
My strategy was to move my bottom, and I hope to have 1000 hours before the end of the year.
And the good news behind all this is: I am not the only one for whom it works. I sometimes have phone calls from friends proposing me to take their jobs because they found a better one.
When someone helps me, I make sure that I can help him in return to thank him. Maybe one day, someone I helped will be a 747 recruiter
If you are a hard worker, you ll easily get respected, and if you get respected, you ll get help.
If you really want it, then just go for it.
Good Luck
Winch
Last edited by winch launch; 1st Mar 2006 at 20:08.
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Clowns
the reason why I am looking at age 31-32 is because to finance training I will have to keep my job, and to keep my job I won't be able to take time off work for training all the time.... A bit of a vicious circle, but it's the only way for me, considering the costs of flying.
So I am being realistic and consider taking out maybe 5-6 grand a year for training... so if we are looking at 30k + for a modualr training, well there you have it.. 5-6 years !
correct ?
the reason why I am looking at age 31-32 is because to finance training I will have to keep my job, and to keep my job I won't be able to take time off work for training all the time.... A bit of a vicious circle, but it's the only way for me, considering the costs of flying.
So I am being realistic and consider taking out maybe 5-6 grand a year for training... so if we are looking at 30k + for a modualr training, well there you have it.. 5-6 years !
correct ?
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Hi there
I thought i would post this up in this thread then start a new one. I am also looking at modular training and have looked at stapleford. Is there any other good modular schools around the London area?
And by the way i dont think anyone is to old to fly, especially early 30's. If you get all your licences you still have a good 20 years till retirement and thats a hell of alot. And my suggestion is about the training from what i have learnt just dont allow big breaks in your training. It will be better for you as you will spend less and I think it will make you a better pilot.
I thought i would post this up in this thread then start a new one. I am also looking at modular training and have looked at stapleford. Is there any other good modular schools around the London area?
And by the way i dont think anyone is to old to fly, especially early 30's. If you get all your licences you still have a good 20 years till retirement and thats a hell of alot. And my suggestion is about the training from what i have learnt just dont allow big breaks in your training. It will be better for you as you will spend less and I think it will make you a better pilot.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I would recommend that you do the modules as close to back-to-back as possible. A lot of chief captains will be looking at that aspect of your training.
Also, no matter what people think, age DOES matter (I'm 35). The older you get, the more you are seen as a training risk. It's not a stereotype, it's a fact: the older you get, the slower you learn. It's just biology. So you are a lot more likely to have to pay for your type rating to get a jet job if you finish your training at 35 instead of late twenties.
Also, I would not recomment you keep you keep working outside the aviation industry during or after your training. Getting good school grades helps, but it's still mainly who you know, and not what you know, that will get you interviews (then at the interview it's a matter of what you know). If it's a flying job like para-dropping or aerial photography, great. But it can also be dispatcher, ops officer, navigation officer, etc. Great way to network your way to an interview.
P
Also, no matter what people think, age DOES matter (I'm 35). The older you get, the more you are seen as a training risk. It's not a stereotype, it's a fact: the older you get, the slower you learn. It's just biology. So you are a lot more likely to have to pay for your type rating to get a jet job if you finish your training at 35 instead of late twenties.
Also, I would not recomment you keep you keep working outside the aviation industry during or after your training. Getting good school grades helps, but it's still mainly who you know, and not what you know, that will get you interviews (then at the interview it's a matter of what you know). If it's a flying job like para-dropping or aerial photography, great. But it can also be dispatcher, ops officer, navigation officer, etc. Great way to network your way to an interview.
P