The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 182
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From: N22 E114
MIKECR,
I aint being screwed for obscene amounts of money!!
Not All Integrated providers Screw you for obscene amounts of money.
Check the CAA Website and you find FOUR (4) providers of Integrated training. Cabair College of Air Training, Oxford Aviation Training , Flight Training Europe SL and Western Australian Aviation College
Check out the prices of all four. One will definately provide a surprise.
http://www.waaviationcollege.com.au/...ated/index.asp
Just in case you cant find the nice surprise.
I aint being screwed for obscene amounts of money!!
Not All Integrated providers Screw you for obscene amounts of money.
Check the CAA Website and you find FOUR (4) providers of Integrated training. Cabair College of Air Training, Oxford Aviation Training , Flight Training Europe SL and Western Australian Aviation College
Check out the prices of all four. One will definately provide a surprise.
http://www.waaviationcollege.com.au/...ated/index.asp
Just in case you cant find the nice surprise.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 495
Likes: 0
From: On the side of the pitch!
Guys,
Simple, go modular, then pay for a type rating at a school like GECAT or Alteon, who CAN place you with an airline with one of their schemes. Same price as an integrated course without a TR. Airlines don't care whether you're integrated or modular except BA.....and with that pension fund? What they do care about is what types you've flown (or can fly) and how many multicrew hours you have on type.
SB
Simple, go modular, then pay for a type rating at a school like GECAT or Alteon, who CAN place you with an airline with one of their schemes. Same price as an integrated course without a TR. Airlines don't care whether you're integrated or modular except BA.....and with that pension fund? What they do care about is what types you've flown (or can fly) and how many multicrew hours you have on type.
SB
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 390
Likes: 0
From: London
Simple, go modular, then pay for a type rating at a school like GECAT or Alteon, who CAN place you with an airline with one of their schemes.
TROs have far, far better access to the ear of the airline hiring managers than flight schools. Why? Let's look at how cadets are selected to be put forward in your typical 'big' flight school. The Chief Pilot, a Nimrod/Vulcan pilot who has never flown for an airline, will take first pick (mostly based on the arse kissing level of the cadet, or what aircraft his/her dad flew in the RAF). He'll then ask the opinion of the IR instructor who trained the cadet. That instructor has never worked for an airline either. Et voila, cadet CV sent to airline. Great!
Now let's look at a TRO. You'll be selected by at least two different airline pilots (ex or current). Same for your ground school and sim instructors. Finally, once the training is completed, your CV will be in the hand of head of training who's most likely an ex-training CPT of a major airline.
So who do you think the airline hiring manager is going to trust when it comes to chosing who to interview?
Don't get me wrong, it still p**** me off that the industry has moved to this situation where pilots are now almost expected to pay for the TR one way or another (as opposed to bonding). But if you're going to play with numbers and wonder whether to spend an extra 20k on an Integrated course or a TR... easy answer!
And for anybody who thinks paying for a TR is selling out... You are completely delusional if you think that washing airplanes, para-dropping for free, banner-towing for almost free, instructing for peanuts, risking your life in a PA-34 single pilot IFR with no autopilot for peanuts, etc. is not prostituting yourself!!!
P
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 644
Likes: 1
From: UK
Indeed the integrated student would appear more tangible at first sight to the airline's training process. However we don't live in an ideal world so not everyone's going to be able to afford neither the time nor money to undertake this particular route. The Modular option is there and there is success attached to it too, especially as we consider so many of ex-modular students how have successfully climbed the ladder and placed themselves in a marketable position in terms of recruitment.
However lets look more closely at the individual and their work/training ethic rather than "what can the system do for me". I just love hearing about those guys who beat the odds and get through it all and make it happen.
Neither Integrated nor modular can claim the exclusive ground of the "the ideal", they do and indeed must co-exist. Otherwise where would we be if all cars were a Mercedes S class, what about those who couldn't afford it or just needed something smaller. The Integrated Vs Modular has more influence at the early "just graduated from flight school" stage rather than the "I'm been in the game for X years now, flying turbine/multi crew ops".
In the US and perhaps other corners of the world they have a very successful modular route that produces pilots who manage to keep their aircraft in the air. The integrated option also produces 'oven fresh" graduates but after a while waiting in the job queue that continuity of training is slowly eroded over time, we are human after all
No doubt some will state that high probability (their opinion) of securing employment but 100% so what does such a candidate do then. Factor in further related issues such as the relative cheapness of the modular option and a prudent graduate can then use the left over money for a TR, deposit on a small flat or at the very least have a smaller debt. Remember not all integrated students have rich parents or relatives and that debt is sizeable by any stretch of the imagination.
Simply choose wisely what's right, relevant and affordable for you.
However lets look more closely at the individual and their work/training ethic rather than "what can the system do for me". I just love hearing about those guys who beat the odds and get through it all and make it happen.
Neither Integrated nor modular can claim the exclusive ground of the "the ideal", they do and indeed must co-exist. Otherwise where would we be if all cars were a Mercedes S class, what about those who couldn't afford it or just needed something smaller. The Integrated Vs Modular has more influence at the early "just graduated from flight school" stage rather than the "I'm been in the game for X years now, flying turbine/multi crew ops".
In the US and perhaps other corners of the world they have a very successful modular route that produces pilots who manage to keep their aircraft in the air. The integrated option also produces 'oven fresh" graduates but after a while waiting in the job queue that continuity of training is slowly eroded over time, we are human after all
No doubt some will state that high probability (their opinion) of securing employment but 100% so what does such a candidate do then. Factor in further related issues such as the relative cheapness of the modular option and a prudent graduate can then use the left over money for a TR, deposit on a small flat or at the very least have a smaller debt. Remember not all integrated students have rich parents or relatives and that debt is sizeable by any stretch of the imagination.Simply choose wisely what's right, relevant and affordable for you.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
From: Weedon
With the way modern flying is going, the best part of your flying career is the long climb to the shiny jet. It was for me tho I didnt know it at the time.
(20000+ hr retired "flown a bit of everything pilot")
(20000+ hr retired "flown a bit of everything pilot")
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: Canada
With pilot recruitment expected to rise and peak within the next few years (as some people suggest), surely this adds merit to doing an integrated or full time modular course (if you wanna save 30K). Be in the job market in 18 months time rather the 36.
My predicament is:
a) take the less risky part time modular route, still earn some money but perhaps miss a more buyant jobs market in the next couple of years.
b) risk everything and go full time, get all my learning done without interruption and be available earlier.
As both options can be done the modular route, the main advantages for option a) is to have a bit of an income and some job security should things go pear shaped.
What does anyone else think?
My predicament is:
a) take the less risky part time modular route, still earn some money but perhaps miss a more buyant jobs market in the next couple of years.
b) risk everything and go full time, get all my learning done without interruption and be available earlier.
As both options can be done the modular route, the main advantages for option a) is to have a bit of an income and some job security should things go pear shaped.
What does anyone else think?
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 366
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From: UK/Switzerland
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: Cork
Best Integrated Courses???
Hi all,
Where do you think the best integrated courses are, excluding Jerez, UK and the USA???
I just wanted an idea of where i could go for training on an integrated approach.
Any info would be great!!!
ATPLWhoops
Where do you think the best integrated courses are, excluding Jerez, UK and the USA???
I just wanted an idea of where i could go for training on an integrated approach.
Any info would be great!!!
ATPLWhoops
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
From: N22 E114
Don't think there is a Integrated Provider in the US.
Only 4 listed by the UK CAA at:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF.
Two are in the UK, Jerez and the Western Australian Aviation College in Perth. Might be others approved by other authorities.
I think its a very good course but might be a little biased as I work here. I'll let the students here tell you what they think.
W1
Only 4 listed by the UK CAA at:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF.
Two are in the UK, Jerez and the Western Australian Aviation College in Perth. Might be others approved by other authorities.
I think its a very good course but might be a little biased as I work here. I'll let the students here tell you what they think.
W1
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: Cork
There are many schools to choose from but i must way up the cost of the course against my personal aspects. I will be needing a loan, so is paying 90,000 at Jerez logical??? I want the course practically offered by Jerez but by another school cheaper if possible.
Any info would be great
ATPLWhoops
Any info would be great
ATPLWhoops
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,606
Likes: 0
From: UK
Yes, there are good modular courses, and if you have the contacts and the knowledge of whom will take you directly from those courses, then great. Otherwise, Jerez is one of the cheaper of the four (plus CTC) integrated courses as you are not liable for VAT and have accomodation included.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: UK
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 366
Likes: 0
From: UK/Switzerland
Hi this thread contains all the info you are looking for,
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=218620
FS.
( For future reference be careful when posting repetitive questions that can be easily located using the search function, some people on here dont take too kindly to 'lazyness'.)
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=218620
FS.
( For future reference be careful when posting repetitive questions that can be easily located using the search function, some people on here dont take too kindly to 'lazyness'.)