The never-ending 'Modular vs. Integrated' debate - merged ad nauseam
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And once you have done the search you still won't be any wiser.
To be honest i think most modular guys really can't be bothered arguing with the Intergrated chaps now as its like banging your head off a brick wall. Mind you if i was trying to justify paying an additional 30 grand I might want to justify it to myself as well. At work there is no difference, at interviews both will be there. Sim tests both intergrated and modular will be there. Same blue book at the end.
And after 500 hours on the line nobody will be able to tell if you were intergrated or modular. The intergrated SA and handeling skills will have caught up with the modular
Basically it's your choice if you believe the marketing from the intergrated companys. There is more than enough modular ex wannbies out there to prove you don't need a intergrated course to get a flying job. But its your money spend it how you like.
To be honest i think most modular guys really can't be bothered arguing with the Intergrated chaps now as its like banging your head off a brick wall. Mind you if i was trying to justify paying an additional 30 grand I might want to justify it to myself as well. At work there is no difference, at interviews both will be there. Sim tests both intergrated and modular will be there. Same blue book at the end.
And after 500 hours on the line nobody will be able to tell if you were intergrated or modular. The intergrated SA and handeling skills will have caught up with the modular
Basically it's your choice if you believe the marketing from the intergrated companys. There is more than enough modular ex wannbies out there to prove you don't need a intergrated course to get a flying job. But its your money spend it how you like.
Hedges81,
Count to 10. Have a bit of a search and then ask yourself if there was really any point in wasting the bandwidth. Look back through the threads and the argument has been thrashed, inconclusively, to death a zillion times.
And please try to be civil. You won't get much help, respect or support if you continue to be as abrasive.
Count to 10. Have a bit of a search and then ask yourself if there was really any point in wasting the bandwidth. Look back through the threads and the argument has been thrashed, inconclusively, to death a zillion times.
And please try to be civil. You won't get much help, respect or support if you continue to be as abrasive.
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Sure, there has been a lot of debate about integrated versus modular over the years. However, I don't think anyone should be having a go at Hedges 81.
Things CHANGE. What might have been true 6 months ago might not be true now. The Airlines are continually making announcements about what they like/don't like, visiting schools, etc etc. A fresh, unbias, look at things is required once in a while.
That said, here is a sensible answer to your post:
Everyone has their own opinion. The Modular guys will tell you how integrated is a con and they are just out to get your money. The Integrated guys will tell you that modular is a dieing art and that airlines are only really interested in low-hours pilot's who have been trained via the integrated route.
The truth probably lies somewhere in between. The price difference is a LOT. For some people, the integrated route is not even an option due to financial restrictions (I suspect this is a source of much of the bitterness there is around). Do you really get any extra bang for your buck at an integrated school?
The answer, in my humble opinion, is to do your research thoroughly and pick the option that suits you personally. Visit modular schools, visit integrated schools. Look at the facilities, the course, the pass rates, the employment rates, and balance all that against the cost. Is it value for money? Will you work better in a classroom than via distance learning? How self disciplined can you be? How fast do you want/need to get your licence? How will you pay back the money? Can you get the money?
In my mind at least, I simply cannot "buy in to" the theory that modular students stand an equal chance of getting employed in the months after graduation. I have seen, at my own local club, enough modular graduates moaning over job prospects to know this. Now, the modular camp will hit back and say that "sure, there are modular guys out there without a job, but you better believe there are a load of integrated students without them as well!!". This, no doubt, is true. However its about ratios. Go by the numbers, what do the actual employment statistics tell you?
This can be where it gets tricky. The integrated schools, who run open days and seminars (FTE, OAT, Cabair etc) will tell you their success rates and they sound very impressive. I'm no fool, and I know not to believe everything I hear but this is the problem I have: The modular schools simply dont tell you ANYTHING. From the schools I have spoken to (and I've researched a serious amount over the last few months) the modular schools tend not to run seminars.. not to have numbers to hand and be much less fussed about promoting their product. I don't know why.
At the close of play, it is your money and you have to go with your gut instinct. Which is the best way to get a job, quickly? My own flying instructor with whom I trained for my PPL was in no doubt that integrated was the way to go (himself being an modular guy). I think a lot of this comes down to changing times. Airlines have realised that its much easier to have an agreement with a big flight training school, who will put forward a select few names (and all the candidates will have a full training record available) as opposed to sifting through thousands of CV's sent in by private applicants. Its just a simpler life for the HR people.
My personal view having spoken to modular people, to integrated people, having visited both types of school and done extensive research elsewhere, is that integrated (IF you are lucky enough to be able to afford it) is the way to go. However unfair it may be, airlines like BA citi express only go to show the type of candidate the airline industry is increasingly selecting.
V2.
(BTW - I think it stinks to high heaven that we have to pay for ANY training. As my parents have always pointed out to me, "Can you think of any other profession where you are expected to cough up that amount of cash just to get qualified - with no offer of a job at the end of it!!!!!???? But thats aviation!)
Things CHANGE. What might have been true 6 months ago might not be true now. The Airlines are continually making announcements about what they like/don't like, visiting schools, etc etc. A fresh, unbias, look at things is required once in a while.
That said, here is a sensible answer to your post:
Everyone has their own opinion. The Modular guys will tell you how integrated is a con and they are just out to get your money. The Integrated guys will tell you that modular is a dieing art and that airlines are only really interested in low-hours pilot's who have been trained via the integrated route.
The truth probably lies somewhere in between. The price difference is a LOT. For some people, the integrated route is not even an option due to financial restrictions (I suspect this is a source of much of the bitterness there is around). Do you really get any extra bang for your buck at an integrated school?
The answer, in my humble opinion, is to do your research thoroughly and pick the option that suits you personally. Visit modular schools, visit integrated schools. Look at the facilities, the course, the pass rates, the employment rates, and balance all that against the cost. Is it value for money? Will you work better in a classroom than via distance learning? How self disciplined can you be? How fast do you want/need to get your licence? How will you pay back the money? Can you get the money?
In my mind at least, I simply cannot "buy in to" the theory that modular students stand an equal chance of getting employed in the months after graduation. I have seen, at my own local club, enough modular graduates moaning over job prospects to know this. Now, the modular camp will hit back and say that "sure, there are modular guys out there without a job, but you better believe there are a load of integrated students without them as well!!". This, no doubt, is true. However its about ratios. Go by the numbers, what do the actual employment statistics tell you?
This can be where it gets tricky. The integrated schools, who run open days and seminars (FTE, OAT, Cabair etc) will tell you their success rates and they sound very impressive. I'm no fool, and I know not to believe everything I hear but this is the problem I have: The modular schools simply dont tell you ANYTHING. From the schools I have spoken to (and I've researched a serious amount over the last few months) the modular schools tend not to run seminars.. not to have numbers to hand and be much less fussed about promoting their product. I don't know why.
At the close of play, it is your money and you have to go with your gut instinct. Which is the best way to get a job, quickly? My own flying instructor with whom I trained for my PPL was in no doubt that integrated was the way to go (himself being an modular guy). I think a lot of this comes down to changing times. Airlines have realised that its much easier to have an agreement with a big flight training school, who will put forward a select few names (and all the candidates will have a full training record available) as opposed to sifting through thousands of CV's sent in by private applicants. Its just a simpler life for the HR people.
My personal view having spoken to modular people, to integrated people, having visited both types of school and done extensive research elsewhere, is that integrated (IF you are lucky enough to be able to afford it) is the way to go. However unfair it may be, airlines like BA citi express only go to show the type of candidate the airline industry is increasingly selecting.
V2.
(BTW - I think it stinks to high heaven that we have to pay for ANY training. As my parents have always pointed out to me, "Can you think of any other profession where you are expected to cough up that amount of cash just to get qualified - with no offer of a job at the end of it!!!!!???? But thats aviation!)
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hedges i think you need to get a life
RANT ON
Wannbies runs off people who have just got there. Parting with information to those who want to be there.
Those people who have stopped being wannabies and are doing the job who caN ACTUALLY BE ARSED to reply to threads in wannabies get knocked down by some prat who hasn't even wet there head in the aviation world.
To be honest its becoming a bore. We as as ex wannabies posters, who actually have jobs flying things get told we are stroppy, talking ****e, no that can't be because XXXX marketing says thats all wrong this is what the airlines want.
You have WWW who has done the modular route teached to CPL level worked as an FO been upgraded to Captain on LCO. He apprently knows bugger about the industry even though he has met and spoken to must be getting onto tripe figures of failed and proven wannabies who get jobs. Scroggs who even although he was taught to fly be auntie bettys flying Club has worked in the industry since i was a wannabie and has never given bad advice that i have seen. And people on this forum think that they actually make the advice up that they give!!!!
Scroggs and WWW say that ATPL results don't matter along with the other 15 current pilots all flying the line (that can be arsed arguing) They must be talking ****e because my m8 who holds an instructor rating who still hasn't got a job yet after 2 years says they matter. PISH.
Should i do Intergrated should i do modular. You can listen to a heap of people who are currently doing the course or you can listen to people ( if they haven't lost the will to live banging their heads against the wall) tell you different.
What do you all want?
Do you want ex wannabies to post what its really like or do you just want us to shut up and let you do what you want?
Are you posting to get confirmation you have made the right choice and then get pissed off becuase you haven't or are you really wanting advice on the way forward?
RANT OFF
MJ
They haven't actually its all run off PR crap its still the same blokes hiring. To my knowledge it hasn't chnaged for a 4 years. The marketing ****e has changed depending on who has been wine and fed with wannabies money.
And the country is filled with instructors who can't get a job because of personal issues with thier CV, interview technique, life history, just bloody unlucky. Why do you want to listen to someone who hasn't made it instead of some one that has?
RANT ON
Wannbies runs off people who have just got there. Parting with information to those who want to be there.
Those people who have stopped being wannabies and are doing the job who caN ACTUALLY BE ARSED to reply to threads in wannabies get knocked down by some prat who hasn't even wet there head in the aviation world.
To be honest its becoming a bore. We as as ex wannabies posters, who actually have jobs flying things get told we are stroppy, talking ****e, no that can't be because XXXX marketing says thats all wrong this is what the airlines want.
You have WWW who has done the modular route teached to CPL level worked as an FO been upgraded to Captain on LCO. He apprently knows bugger about the industry even though he has met and spoken to must be getting onto tripe figures of failed and proven wannabies who get jobs. Scroggs who even although he was taught to fly be auntie bettys flying Club has worked in the industry since i was a wannabie and has never given bad advice that i have seen. And people on this forum think that they actually make the advice up that they give!!!!
Scroggs and WWW say that ATPL results don't matter along with the other 15 current pilots all flying the line (that can be arsed arguing) They must be talking ****e because my m8 who holds an instructor rating who still hasn't got a job yet after 2 years says they matter. PISH.
Should i do Intergrated should i do modular. You can listen to a heap of people who are currently doing the course or you can listen to people ( if they haven't lost the will to live banging their heads against the wall) tell you different.
What do you all want?
Do you want ex wannabies to post what its really like or do you just want us to shut up and let you do what you want?
Are you posting to get confirmation you have made the right choice and then get pissed off becuase you haven't or are you really wanting advice on the way forward?
RANT OFF
MJ
Things CHANGE. What might have been true 6 months ago might not be true now. The Airlines are continually making announcements about what they like/don't like, visiting schools, etc etc. A fresh, unbias, look at things is required once in a while.
And the country is filled with instructors who can't get a job because of personal issues with thier CV, interview technique, life history, just bloody unlucky. Why do you want to listen to someone who hasn't made it instead of some one that has?
Last edited by mad_jock; 8th Oct 2005 at 01:19.
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I think the only things that has changed recently is the increase in self-sponsored type rating gamblers who, if trained at one of the better organisations, are increasingly getting jobs.
If your ONLY deciding factor in the integrated vs modular route dilemna is "Will I get a job right away?", then I'd say don't do the integrated route unless you are in your mid-twenties or younger and are pretty confident of getting good results in groundschool and 1st time passes in CPL and IR tests. If you fit this bill, you are likely to get a recommendation from the flight school to the airlines that they associate with. If you don't, they'll wash your hands of you as soon as they receive the final payment.
If you don't fit the bill, for the same money you could complete a modular course and buy a TR (at a reputable TRTO). Same money but hugely improved chances of getting a job.
If you wish to comment on paying for a TR, please do so in one of the many other forums where this topic has, likewise, been beaten to death without conclusion.
And there, ladies and gentlemen, is my two pence worth.
If your ONLY deciding factor in the integrated vs modular route dilemna is "Will I get a job right away?", then I'd say don't do the integrated route unless you are in your mid-twenties or younger and are pretty confident of getting good results in groundschool and 1st time passes in CPL and IR tests. If you fit this bill, you are likely to get a recommendation from the flight school to the airlines that they associate with. If you don't, they'll wash your hands of you as soon as they receive the final payment.
If you don't fit the bill, for the same money you could complete a modular course and buy a TR (at a reputable TRTO). Same money but hugely improved chances of getting a job.
If you wish to comment on paying for a TR, please do so in one of the many other forums where this topic has, likewise, been beaten to death without conclusion.
And there, ladies and gentlemen, is my two pence worth.
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Zedex,
The problem with that is, HSBC withdrew their professional studies loan. Short of a miracle, how is someone supposed to get the money for that now?
I'm a real advocate of the theory that you have to work hard to get places, so sure you could work for 5 years to try and save up the money for the CPL/IR and type rating - but I'm betting if you're in your mid to early 20's you won't even get close to the amount required. By the time you do.. you're getting old. Catch 22.
V2
The problem with that is, HSBC withdrew their professional studies loan. Short of a miracle, how is someone supposed to get the money for that now?
I'm a real advocate of the theory that you have to work hard to get places, so sure you could work for 5 years to try and save up the money for the CPL/IR and type rating - but I'm betting if you're in your mid to early 20's you won't even get close to the amount required. By the time you do.. you're getting old. Catch 22.
V2
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Hedges
At first I was going to give a reasoned answer to your question then I saw your reply to Silver and thought I'd say this.
"Dont bother with either as with that attitude you would get murdered in a modern airline flight deck".
Then I thought well that would be the same knee jerk reaction you gave to someone who's intentions I'm sure were honourable.
As hamphisted said
.
If I were you I would ask the airlines as im sure you will be aware that on this website you will get hundreds of different answers and all valid.
I did and by and large they said "intergrated".
I hope this has helped because it is an important question........at least to you.
I wish you luck in your cjoice and progression into the best job on the planet.....or above it if you get my drift.
At first I was going to give a reasoned answer to your question then I saw your reply to Silver and thought I'd say this.
"Dont bother with either as with that attitude you would get murdered in a modern airline flight deck".
Then I thought well that would be the same knee jerk reaction you gave to someone who's intentions I'm sure were honourable.
As hamphisted said
And please try to be civil. You won't get much help, respect or support if you continue to be as abrasive
If I were you I would ask the airlines as im sure you will be aware that on this website you will get hundreds of different answers and all valid.
I did and by and large they said "intergrated".
I hope this has helped because it is an important question........at least to you.
I wish you luck in your cjoice and progression into the best job on the planet.....or above it if you get my drift.
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The problem with that is, HSBC withdrew their professional studies loan. Short of a miracle, how is someone supposed to get the money for that now?
It because its bad business. The jobs arn't out there or if they are they are not paying enough to service a 60k loan. Turbo prop starting salary is somewhere between 17k-23K so call it 20k. Thats 3 times the loan amount. You could just get a morgage on a secured property for that amount on that salary. All it takes is for a few people to go bankrupt and any profit they have been making out of the scheme has gone.
Flaps to 60 I wouldn't mind knowing which airlines told you intergrated. Because recently all the airlines currently taking low hour pilots have taken both Modular and Intergrated graduates. So what HR are telling people and what the Chief Pilots are hiring seems to be at a difference.
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Im modular and i got a job 6 months after training with 230hrs!
Hedges, you sound like a bit of a tool
. What MJ says is true. Its been done to death and nobody can answer your quesion.
For interests sake my airline prefers Integrated but that doesnt explain why my course were all modular!
I'll give you an answer to your question-
Do the course that suits your budget.
The question you should be asking is -
Is it what you know or who you know?
Hedges, you sound like a bit of a tool
. What MJ says is true. Its been done to death and nobody can answer your quesion. For interests sake my airline prefers Integrated but that doesnt explain why my course were all modular!
I'll give you an answer to your question-
Do the course that suits your budget.
The question you should be asking is -
Is it what you know or who you know?
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Have you thought why HSBC have finished with doing those loans? It because its bad business. The jobs arn't out there or if they are they are not paying enough to service a 60k loan. Turbo prop starting salary is somewhere between 17k-23K so call it 20k. Thats 3 times the loan amount. You could just get a morgage on a secured property for that amount on that salary. All it takes is for a few people to go bankrupt and any profit they have been making out of the scheme has gone.
Using your analogy therefore, I would have to say that HSBC have reasoned that the loan itself isn't bad business, but something about modular training poses a greater risk. Presumably they judge that integrated students are in a better position to pay back the money at the end of the course.
None of this answers the real problem for potential modular students: Post HSBC, how do you get the £30/35k required to train, plus whatever you might need for a JOC/Type rating, whilst still being young enough on graduation to be attractive to the airlines?
The only way I can see of doing it is to do one module at a time, and instruct for several years. Nothing wrong with that at all either, it just depends whether you are instructor material or not.
V2
P.S I think there is real value to getting an Instructor rating and using it, and I personally think its a very good idea. Someone once told me that the best way of getting to know a subject better, is to teach it.
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its called risk offset the school is covering the banks risk so they can actually stay running.
If there wasn't risk offset the option of Intergrated would disappear very quickly.
Each school must have about 15 students every 3 months willing to garantee through a loan or cash 60k. Which works about 3.6 million cash flow per school per year.
The applitude test is a laugh and a half as anyone who has been to it knows. Does anyone actually know anyone who has failed who has passed the credit check?
So the only reason you are getting a loan is because the school HAS to get one or they will go bust. They share the risk with the bank of you going bankrupt.
Well that about sums up all the bloody crap out there with the HR departments. ITS ALL BOLLOCKS SAVE YOUR 30K if all the wannbies out there did modualar for 6 months there wouldn't be an option. OAT, CABAIR, and BAe would be all gone.
If there wasn't risk offset the option of Intergrated would disappear very quickly.
Each school must have about 15 students every 3 months willing to garantee through a loan or cash 60k. Which works about 3.6 million cash flow per school per year.
The applitude test is a laugh and a half as anyone who has been to it knows. Does anyone actually know anyone who has failed who has passed the credit check?
So the only reason you are getting a loan is because the school HAS to get one or they will go bust. They share the risk with the bank of you going bankrupt.
For interests sake my airline prefers Integrated but that doesnt explain why my course were all modular!
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training to fly is all about what happens at the end of it, the elusive first job.
I trained integrated as I realised there would be a whiff of an increased chance of a job as a few hiring airlines took only integrated.
I think the presence of this forums is for helping one another and maybe a bit of banter but sniping at each other...........
I trained integrated as I realised there would be a whiff of an increased chance of a job as a few hiring airlines took only integrated.
I think the presence of this forums is for helping one another and maybe a bit of banter but sniping at each other...........
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Much of this argument hinges on what sort of job you expect at the end of your ab-initio training. Until fairly recently, it was accepted that a baby pilot with less than 1000 hours would have to do an apprenticeship on air-taxis, night freight or TP commuters - or the military - before they would get a sniff at an airline job. Now, all Wannabes seem to assume that unless they're in the RHS of a 737 5 minutes after graduation, they've failed.
The fact is that there are quite a few ab-intio students who are picked up by the jet operators after only 250 or so hours. I, and many other experienced pilots, don't like it, but accountants run these companies, not pilots. Accountants like an easy, ready-made product that they can order in advance from organisations big enough to absorb the vicissitudes of their supply and demand equation, hence courses like Oxford's APP and CTC's set up. You'll note that CTC's course is modular, not integrated - which blows the 'airlines prefer integrated' argument right out of the water!
However, the airlines that take the product from OAT, CTC Cabair and FTE Jerez are careful not to put all their eggs in one basket. They still recruit from other places, including from the time-served guys who've done the traditional apprenticeships mentioned earlier. There are also many, many airlines and small operators that aren't interested in the sausage-machine product and actually prefer the guys who've shifted heaven and earth, while working in a supermarket, to achieve their goal.
In short, you could go any route to your CPL and be left without a job. You could be lucky and get a job at EZ or similar immediately on leaving your school, but you'll have missed out on some great experiences on smaller, more demanding aircraft.
The modular route is not dying. There are some changes in the way the voracious demands of the low-costers are satisfied, but there are still opportunities with them and with many other places for the less-well-off student who is forced to go the modular route on a budget. It's not so straightforward, and might require more effort, but it's still possible.
Scroggs
The fact is that there are quite a few ab-intio students who are picked up by the jet operators after only 250 or so hours. I, and many other experienced pilots, don't like it, but accountants run these companies, not pilots. Accountants like an easy, ready-made product that they can order in advance from organisations big enough to absorb the vicissitudes of their supply and demand equation, hence courses like Oxford's APP and CTC's set up. You'll note that CTC's course is modular, not integrated - which blows the 'airlines prefer integrated' argument right out of the water!
However, the airlines that take the product from OAT, CTC Cabair and FTE Jerez are careful not to put all their eggs in one basket. They still recruit from other places, including from the time-served guys who've done the traditional apprenticeships mentioned earlier. There are also many, many airlines and small operators that aren't interested in the sausage-machine product and actually prefer the guys who've shifted heaven and earth, while working in a supermarket, to achieve their goal.
In short, you could go any route to your CPL and be left without a job. You could be lucky and get a job at EZ or similar immediately on leaving your school, but you'll have missed out on some great experiences on smaller, more demanding aircraft.
The modular route is not dying. There are some changes in the way the voracious demands of the low-costers are satisfied, but there are still opportunities with them and with many other places for the less-well-off student who is forced to go the modular route on a budget. It's not so straightforward, and might require more effort, but it's still possible.
Scroggs
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Until fairly recently, it was accepted that a baby pilot with less than 1000 hours would have to do an apprenticeship on air-taxis, night freight or TP commuters - or the military - before they would get a sniff at an airline job.
No offence but do you not class a TP job as an airline job?
Modular or integrated? Modular all the way.......You might have the money to do the course but will it be good enough to get you through.....even worse will you be good enough to pass the conversion course?
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Chocks, MJ, flaps - cheers guys. Can' be bothered with jumped up newbies who register just to ask questions and get personal when you tell them what they don't want to hear.
MJ is right, we will never see a definite conclusion to this argument.
A couple of points this has kicked up to consider:
MJ is right, we will never see a definite conclusion to this argument.
A couple of points this has kicked up to consider:
- Modular schools are busy, and don't need to run after business. Nor do they have to run expensive seminars at the students expense.the modular schools tend not to run seminars.. not to have numbers to hand and be much less fussed about promoting their product. I don't know why.
- As Scroggs says, CTC is modular. End of story.
- If modular is the 'poor relative' why are Oxford relaunching their new fangled modular courses? And while you ask them that, ask who is paying for the marketing!!!!!!
Last edited by silverknapper; 9th Oct 2005 at 21:42.
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I personally think it stinks either way, modular students don't get a look and integrated is wince-makingly expensive, for what though? Still a CAA test to to earn your CPL, still CAA ATPL exams. I think scroggs had it with the sausage factory comment, Airlines like integrated because they are taught to fly like they are flying an airliner from day 1. Its easier to fit a low hours integrated pilot into an EFIS cockpit than a similar modular pilot. The price is astronomical because you really do pay for the brand of a company like CTC or OAT etc. Although if you could do a modualar course at OAT would that be looked upon negatively purely based on whether the training was integrated or modualar in structure? 
It's certainly a pickle
x- Atreyu -x
It's certainly a pickle
x- Atreyu -x
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Caudillo, if you are trying to find some kind of conspiratorial anti-FTO subversive intent in my post, you are fantasising. I don't know quite what's happening on your planet, but it seems a long way from the reality that I observe. I have no 'agenda'; I simply pass comment on what I see in an industry I have observed for 30 years.
Rowley Are you trying to deliberately misunderstand me too, or is everyone a little hormonal today?
Atreyu you obviosly have read little and understood less. As I thought I made clear, plenty of modular students are getting jobs. CTC's course is modular not integrated!
Flying training costs a lot of money, whichever way you do it. That's a fact of life and isn't going to change anytime soon. You have the option of spending rather less than the integrated schools would like to charge you, if you wish to take it. For many, modular may be the only way they can afford to contemplate this career. I am trying to reassure you that jobs are still available for those who choose this route, but that you may have to consider a couple of extra steps on the ladder to a jet job. If you can't countenance that, then this career is possibly not for you.
As for moaning about those who can afford to go to OAT's APP or similar, don't waste your breath. There will always be people with more money than you who can afford things you can't. Get over it. Make the best of your own life rather than wasting energy being jealous of others. In any case, you may have no idea of the sacrifices those APP students may have made to find the money to do that course. Having £90k to spend on your training does not necessarily mean that you have a rich daddy.
Scroggs
Rowley Are you trying to deliberately misunderstand me too, or is everyone a little hormonal today?
Atreyu you obviosly have read little and understood less. As I thought I made clear, plenty of modular students are getting jobs. CTC's course is modular not integrated!
Flying training costs a lot of money, whichever way you do it. That's a fact of life and isn't going to change anytime soon. You have the option of spending rather less than the integrated schools would like to charge you, if you wish to take it. For many, modular may be the only way they can afford to contemplate this career. I am trying to reassure you that jobs are still available for those who choose this route, but that you may have to consider a couple of extra steps on the ladder to a jet job. If you can't countenance that, then this career is possibly not for you.
As for moaning about those who can afford to go to OAT's APP or similar, don't waste your breath. There will always be people with more money than you who can afford things you can't. Get over it. Make the best of your own life rather than wasting energy being jealous of others. In any case, you may have no idea of the sacrifices those APP students may have made to find the money to do that course. Having £90k to spend on your training does not necessarily mean that you have a rich daddy.
Scroggs
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Rowley Are you trying to deliberately misunderstand me too, or is everyone a little hormonal today?
The modular v Integrated argument is pointless.........simple as!
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so scroggs u disagree that with an OAT integrated course your paying your way into an airline job quicker? why would I be jealous? i could raise the funds to go to OAT and i know fine well that modualar students get jobs, but surely it must be that
your integrated 250 +/- hour pilots are above your modualar pilots in preference? correct if I'm wrong please
no disrespect intended =) you know far more than me.
x-Atreyu-x
and i know fine well that modualar students get jobs, but surely it must be that your integrated 250 +/- hour pilots are above your modualar pilots in preference? correct if I'm wrong please
no disrespect intended =) you know far more than me.
x-Atreyu-x
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so scroggs u disagree that with an OAT integrated course your paying your way into an airline job quicker?
However, there seems to be a perception developing that unless you do one of these courses, you will have no chance of becoming an airline pilot. That, of course, is rubbish. You may have less (not no) chance of stepping straight into a jet cockpit, but you are certainly not disqualified from becoming a jet pilot. You may have to accept that you'll need to spend some time instructing, or flying in less 'glamorous' roles, but so what? You'll still get there if you have the ability and want it enough.
I think, though, you'll have to get used to the idea that this is the way things are going. Flying is a safety-critical occupation, and legislators will increasingly insist on greater supervision and control of the training process. Continuity combined with continuous assessment (as practised in military training) will, I think, eventually become compulsory. That is expensive, and - at least in part - explains why the courses mentioned above cost a lot more than the modular approach can do.
You wouldn't be too happy if your doctor did his training at home and in spare time away from his regular job, and did much of his learning unsupervised. You'd want to be very sure he was up to the job if your reputation (or your life) depended on his professional ability, yet you had little or no access to his training record. That is the problem for employers looking at the ex-modular student who did courses as and when he could afford them while continuing to earn a living. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it exists, and you have to be prepared for its consequences if you choose that route - the major one of which is that a jet airline would prefer someone else to take the risk of being that pilot's first employer!
The desire to fly does not confer on you the right to fly. As the UK (like many countries) does not offer financial support to those undergoing flying training - or many other speculative qualifications - yet insists that the training becomes increasingly rigorous, you will find that the cost continues to rise above general inflation. That is not going to change. There are no current proposals to make continuous training compulsory, but I suspect that they are not that far off. In other words, if you can't raise the money for the full-time courses, don't wait too long to start training!
Scroggs