Logbook and Logging Hours Questions

[LAX]

Guys. Don't panic about visa's. I had a visa to be resident in the U.S. Got my FAA PPL with night qualification at a local flight school, did my required solo hours, take offs, landings at night, went down the CAA with my JAR stuff and they issued my CPL. No worries!

[moon_towers]

Logging Dual times

Hello there,

I wanna make sure when we logged DUAL time? Is it during the school or we also can logging even during the initial training for the airline(s)?

Thanks alot,

m_t

[Intruder]

I don't think it matters much after you get your Private Pilot Certificate, except for any dual required for additional ratings. However, I log it in the Sim for any "training" ride (e.g., PT), but not for a check ride (PC or Line Check).

My rule: If an Instructor or Check Airman is in the "training" mode, I log dual.

[moon_towers]

Intruder,

Thanks a lot for u r help.

regards,

m_t

[machlimter99]

Logging IFR time when doing your IR?

Just a quick question, when you come to fill in your logbook can you count all the time as IFR when doing your IR course- chock to chock??

Can you log your IMC hours this way also

[mad_jock]

You can log IFR when ever you like as long as you obey the IFR rules. Ie above MSA etc flight quadrangal rules etc.

You can depart VFR climb above MSA fly your route in perfect VMC then decend and recover VFR the portion of the flight when your obeying IFR can be logged.

And all time at night out side controlled airspace can be logged as IFR as well. The stuff inside can be logged as well as long as your not under a SVFR clearance

If you depart on a IFR flight plan and return without canceling the plan yes you can.

If you book out VFR to do some handling you can log some of it. as per the the first option.

But don't for gawds sake don't get confused with "sole reference to Instruments" that can only be logged when your under the shields. Or actually flying in IMC. The defintions all changed with JAR and the old system is quite a bit different. I am expecting some inbound from people trained under the old CAA rules because they were different with different requirments for license issue. The sole reference to instrucments isn't really relavent any more unless you want to teach applied instruments as an instructor. For ATPL issue i think it asks for 60 Instrument hours which you will cover in your CPl and IR courses and nothing actually defines what instrument hours are if its sole reference or IFR.

MJ

[despegue]

On an IFR flight plan, you log your flight blocks to blocks as IFR.
Simple as that.
Don't try and invent any "special" rules, exeptions blablabla, keep it simple, it works the best.

[machlimter99]

ok I understand, thanks. What about my IMC rating, what should I log.

Also for the actual should I minus 10 minutes off my IFR time, as i have the screens up then??????

[mad_jock]

Is it IFR you are worried about or "sole use of instruments"?

MJ

[FlyingForFun]

What about my IMC rating, what should I log

There are two ways of logging instrument time.

One way is to log IFR time, in which case do as MJ and Despegue suggest.

The other alternative is to log time flown by sole reference to instrument, in which case you log all the time when you are either under foggles (or any other view-limiting device) or in actual IMC.

For the IMC rating, there is a requirement to log 10 hours of flight by sole reference to instruments, so it makes sense to log the whole course using the second method. For the IR, I don't think it makes any difference, but......

The only time it really makes any difference which method you use is if you are thinking of becoming an IMC or IR instructor. For instructing for the IR, there is an hours requirement of 200 hours of IFR time, or 50 hours of time by sole reference to instruments. There is a lower requirement for instructing for the IMC rating, but again 4 hours of IFR flight corresponds to 1 hour of flight by sole reference to instruments.

I'm guessing that you will find it far easier to log 50 hours of time by sole reference to instruments, than logging 200 hours of IFR time. In which case, you are better off logging all of your instrument flying time as time by sole reference to instruments, at least until you have the required 50 hours. But if you're not planning on instructing, it doesn't make any difference.

FFF
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[englishal]

but again 4 hours of IFR flight corresponds to 1 hour of flight by sole reference to instruments.

Who says? Surely time spent flying with "sole reference to the instruments" is just that. You don't guestimate do you???

For instructing for the IR, there is an hours requirement of 200 hours of IFR time, or 50 hours of time by sole reference to instruments.

So you could have an IRI with very little ACTUAL or SIMULATED instrument time? Just "IFR" time (which I'm sure is worthless anywhere else other than England)......Scary, especially at the amount of money charged for their services.......

[mad_jock]

terminology out break now.

Englishal

FFF is just quoting the lasors

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20H%20.pdf

For the removal of no applied instruments for a FI its 200 hours IFR and if sole reference 1 hour sole reference is counted as 4 hours IFR. This is reduced to 10 sole reference hours if only teaching IMC's

For the IRI its 800 hours IFR and if sole reference 1 hour sole reference is counted as 4 hours IFR.

And you don't need a IRI to teach IR. Its a stand alone rating which only allows you to teach IR. A FI who has thier "no applied instruments restriction" removed can also teach IR as long as they have more than the factored 200 hours IFR.

I haven't heard of any IRI only qualified instructors but I am sure there is one or two out there. All the ones I have seen have done the FI -> FI (no applied instruments removed) -> Multi class rating Instructor -> CPL Instructor -> Then IR instructor.

The only other limit in regards of IFR time is a JAR ops requirment for single crew ops. And these are all JAR rating requirments so in theory they should be the same through out the JAR world.

MJ

[MOONEYPILOT]

Logging Time Jaa / Pic?

Hello just wondering what time counts as PIC time for JAA. Are you not PIC while you are dual/getting instruction?

What about when you get your instrument rateing, then flying with your instructor your commercial, are you PIC or not?

What about when you have your CPL/IR and working on your flight instructor ratings, then are you PIC or not?

Is the JAA rule any time you are getting Dual instruction that you are not pic? Please explain and if possible send me a link where i can figure this out. Helping friend to forward hours to a JAA logbook,,thanks

[Pole Hill]

All to the best of my knowledge....

Hello just wondering what time counts as PIC time for JAA. Are you not PIC while you are dual/getting instruction?

Correct. If you are under instruction, you are P/ut (Pilot under training) If you are not under instruction, i.e you are the commander, then you are PIC, I enter it as P1 in the logbook

What about when you get your instrument rateing, then flying with your instructor your commercial, are you PIC or not?

Same as above.

What about when you have your CPL/IR and working on your flight instructor ratings, then are you PIC or not?

I don't quite know what you mean. If you are the flight instructor, you are PIC. If you are the student, then you are Pu/t.

If you are on a flight test, like the PPL flight test for example, you log the time as P1/s (Pilot in command under supervision).

Hope this helps,
POL

[LFS]

You can find full details on the recording of time (and loads of other useful information ) in Lasors CAA Lasors

Section A Appendix B page 34 gives details on the recording of flight time.

[FlyingForFun]

To add to the above answers:

Under JAR, an aircraft can only ever have one commander. If you are flying with an instructor, under instruction, whatever course it is you are training for, the instructor will be the commander and will log P1 (or PIC). You will log PUT.

(On the other hand, if you are carrying an instructor as a passenger - maybe because, after you get your PPL, you are planning a trip somewhere, and invite your ex-instructor to come along for the ride, then you will log P1 and the instructor does not log the flight. Hence why I needed to qualify the above paragraph with the "under instruction" phrase.)

There are only two times I can think of when you log P1 as you are undergoing a course of training. The first is as a solo student. The second is on the Flying Instructor Course, when carrying out mutual flying. For most of the FIC, you will fly with your instructor, so he will be captain. But the course allows up to a maximum of 5 hours of "mutual" flying where you "instruct" another FIC student for part of the PPL course. In this case, if you are the one "instructing", you are captain. (The student who is receiving the "instruction" does not get to log the flight, but still gets lots of benefit from it just the same.)

But, as LFS says, LASORS contains the full list of how to log time, so there may be some other circumstances that I've missed.

FFF
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[genius747]

Logbook Questions

Hi, could someone in the know please advise me are you required or advised to get your logbook stamped and signed from the operator of any aircraft you fly?

For example you rent an a/c for a 50hr block rate to hr build.

You do 5 or 6 hrs flying on a friends a/c

You fly occasionaly in a non-profit making club.

Baisically what i'm looking at is, I have built hours towards my fATPL from a few various sources, but I have never got anybody to stamp my logbook or sign off that the time I have logged is accurate and correct.

Will the CAA come to me to verify my logged hours when I apply for my fATPL? There is no problem doing it, but my flying has been conducted in the UK Ireland, USA etc..... its going to be a pain in the ass if they do, but I guess people could log false hours otherwise.... where do I stand here?
Any Ideas.... or maby Im reading into this too much and the CAA take all logbooks at face value relying on good faith? I dunno!

Thanks

[Dude~]

Don't worry, I don't believe they check up with operators unless there is obviously a discrepancy. I can't imagine them phoning private owners in other countries, but it is possible they do a rough check, perhaps based on hours recorded for maintenance.

Anyway, I've just had my Frozen ATPL issued and I have flown many different aircraft in several countries. It would be very time consuming to verify all my flights, and despite the CAA taking 4 weeks to issue my licence I doubt they did check. There were certainly no problems with my hours, just the odd bit of paperwork going astray in the system.

Incidentally many people ask if they should get their 300nm CPL cross country flight signed, but I didn't. If you feel you have to get that signed then why not all your other flights? The CAA form will ask for the date of the flight so they can locate it your logbooks and that's it. Mine was in Australia and they didn't mention it.

Why not ask them?

Also I think most people would agree that someone who falsifies logbook entries will be unlikely to be up to scratch and will get found out. Once they are uncovered they are sure to get clobbered by the CAA and lose all chance of flying again.

[@v8ter]

Thats no good you will have build all your hours from scratch, if your hours are not stamped they do not count. Bad luck....

[Frank Furillo]

Hi Genius747
Well I too have done some private flying and never once had it stamped or signed.
However when you undertake training, your training provider will stamp hours correct and verified, for your training hours. You should also get a Course Completion Certificate, which the CAA do want to see.
Also I got my CPL 300NM XCountry stamed but in the back under endorsements.
I don't think you have anything to worry about, check your copy of Lasors, try here Section A, Appendix 16
The only thing I could find that relates to having your logbook signed is this

Instruction time: A summary of all time logged by an applicant for a licence or rating as flight instruction, instrument flight instruction, instrument ground time, etc. shall be certified bythe appropriately rated and/or authorised instructor from whom it was received.

I had no problem when I had my fATPL Issued.

@v8ter where did you get your information?????
Frank