Logbook and Logging Hours Questions
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Like Gus, I interpret the rules as indicating that there are two possibilities. But I don't agree with him about what those possibilities are!
The first choice, as Gus says, is that the instructor logs P1 and you log PUT.
The second option is that you log P1, and the instructor logs nothing at all. In this case, the instructor is nothing more, legally, than a passenger. If you choose this option, it must be agreed with your instructor in advance, because it has obvious implications on who has the final say if you and your instructor disagree on the correct course of actions (especially, say, in an emergency).
I do definitely agree with Gus' last line - err on the side of caution, and log it as PUT if in any doubt.
FFF
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The first choice, as Gus says, is that the instructor logs P1 and you log PUT.
The second option is that you log P1, and the instructor logs nothing at all. In this case, the instructor is nothing more, legally, than a passenger. If you choose this option, it must be agreed with your instructor in advance, because it has obvious implications on who has the final say if you and your instructor disagree on the correct course of actions (especially, say, in an emergency).
I do definitely agree with Gus' last line - err on the side of caution, and log it as PUT if in any doubt.
FFF
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In some countries the insurance companies dictate that the owner of the aircraft has to appoint a person who does the checkout's. This does not have to be an instructor at all! It has happened to me!
I understand that I have to show some capabilities. Why should it be to an instructor? So I am captain.
What I do is I'll say in advance that I am logging PIC. Sometimes the instructor will tell me he'll log the hours too. I say them that it is illegal to do so, but that is up to them (they agreed that I was going to be PIC).
I do this because I need the hours. I can do this because I think it is a legal way to do. It is the CAA not laying out the rules.
Questions / comments welcome.
Regards,
Jeroen
I understand that I have to show some capabilities. Why should it be to an instructor? So I am captain.
What I do is I'll say in advance that I am logging PIC. Sometimes the instructor will tell me he'll log the hours too. I say them that it is illegal to do so, but that is up to them (they agreed that I was going to be PIC).
I do this because I need the hours. I can do this because I think it is a legal way to do. It is the CAA not laying out the rules.
Questions / comments welcome.
Regards,
Jeroen
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Logging IFR time
I have been flying in South Africa on a SA licence for the last 4 years and the regulations here state that only actual IMC time can be logged as IFR, or when conducting an approach (simulated IFR).
Can someone please inform me of how one logs IFR time under JAR as I have just got this licence too.
Thanks
Can someone please inform me of how one logs IFR time under JAR as I have just got this licence too.
Thanks
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I am holding both JAA & FAA Tickets, and FAA states IFR time is IMC time.
French authorities claim IFR is flight under IFR Flight plans (whatever the WX is )
Therefore, I am differenciating the 2 things in my logbook : I have one column to log IMC time and another one to log IFR Flight Plan time.
If asked, I can specify .
French authorities claim IFR is flight under IFR Flight plans (whatever the WX is )
Therefore, I am differenciating the 2 things in my logbook : I have one column to log IMC time and another one to log IFR Flight Plan time.
If asked, I can specify .
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I must say I'm kind of sceptic reading or writing anything on this particular day, but here it goes..
JAA: Regulation asks for "IFR time"...that's time following Instrument Flight Rules. for most of your flights that means when you are on a clearance (soemplaces you can fly IFR in G airspace without clearance, but let's not get in to that).
So when you go flying IFR you receive a clearance at startup and you follow it to your destination hence ALL block time is IFR, regardless of weather.
FAA: Regulation specifies "Instrument time" meaning time you spend with the instrumet as you reference. So if you go on a 5 hour trip with takeoff under IMC, cruise in VMC (above clouds for example) followed by an approach in IMC you logg the departure and the arrival as instrumet time, the rest just as "normal" time.
Most countries have similar regulations. It all comes down to what they are asking for.
I logg IFR time and Instrument time separately, to keep up with both sides....
JAA: Regulation asks for "IFR time"...that's time following Instrument Flight Rules. for most of your flights that means when you are on a clearance (soemplaces you can fly IFR in G airspace without clearance, but let's not get in to that).
So when you go flying IFR you receive a clearance at startup and you follow it to your destination hence ALL block time is IFR, regardless of weather.
FAA: Regulation specifies "Instrument time" meaning time you spend with the instrumet as you reference. So if you go on a 5 hour trip with takeoff under IMC, cruise in VMC (above clouds for example) followed by an approach in IMC you logg the departure and the arrival as instrumet time, the rest just as "normal" time.
Most countries have similar regulations. It all comes down to what they are asking for.
I logg IFR time and Instrument time separately, to keep up with both sides....
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When do I start Logging hours?
Hey, as im hopeing to start training in the summer, Id just like to know when exactly can I start logging hours as PIC? IS this after my first solo flight? Or can the hours that I accumulate when not PIC go towards my license requirements (i.e. the minimum hours to aquire a CPL?) Cheers
Alex
Alex
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PIC is where you are the pilot in command. Any training flights with an instructor on board will be logged as Pu/t (pilot under training). Any training flights where you are the sole occupant of the flight are logged as P1 or PIC. Obvious as you are the only person there, ergo, you are pilot in command. Hence, your first flight as PIC will be your first solo. Every subsequent solo flight will be logged as PIC. Don't worry too much about this as the moment as your instructor will explain how to correctly log each flight.
Good luck
Good luck
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Just to add a little to the comprehensive reply above and hopefully clear up any confusion.
You don't have to be the sole occupant to claim PIC. You can go flying with passengers (once qualified) or even go up with another qualified pilot. So long as you sign for the aeroplane you claim PIC.
Sorry if that is a glimpse of the blindingly obvious
You don't have to be the sole occupant to claim PIC. You can go flying with passengers (once qualified) or even go up with another qualified pilot. So long as you sign for the aeroplane you claim PIC.
Sorry if that is a glimpse of the blindingly obvious
Hovering AND talking
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All flying hours whether P1, Pu/t or P1/s (Pilot in command under supervision - usually after you have your licence and doing your proficiency check) count towards your total hours needed to commence a CPL (if doing the modular route from PPL).
Cheers
Whirlygig
Cheers
Whirlygig
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P1 u/s is I believe only used for skill tests - NOT after qualifying and doing a proficiency check - that is still P1.
Ask BEagle though - I wouldn't place a cent on anything I say...
Ask BEagle though - I wouldn't place a cent on anything I say...
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Yup there is a misconception that P1/S is used whenever you do a flight test, checkout, etc... It is not no matter what some instructors say - I'm sure lasors points this out.
P1/S is only used when one has successfully completed a flight test for the issue of a licence or rating.
P1/S is only used when one has successfully completed a flight test for the issue of a licence or rating.
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Night Qualification query(in US) .. is it just hours in the logbook?
Hi all - i have some queries regarding the Night Qualification requisite for commencing JAA CPL.
Is it akin to the cross country requirement in that it is just necessary that you do the 5 hours, 5 take offs and landings, hour solo etc and have it in your log book? Or is something that needs CAA approval and is to be carried out at a CAA approved school etc? Is there any way that the "training" can be seen as "supervised flying" thus negating the need for an M1 visa in the states.
You may be able to see what I'm angling at here. Basically, would i run into any probs doing this in the US without an M1 visa with an instructor not based at an approved CAA school?
All thoughts and opinions welcome.
Is it akin to the cross country requirement in that it is just necessary that you do the 5 hours, 5 take offs and landings, hour solo etc and have it in your log book? Or is something that needs CAA approval and is to be carried out at a CAA approved school etc? Is there any way that the "training" can be seen as "supervised flying" thus negating the need for an M1 visa in the states.
You may be able to see what I'm angling at here. Basically, would i run into any probs doing this in the US without an M1 visa with an instructor not based at an approved CAA school?
All thoughts and opinions welcome.
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Chocks,
I did mine a while back in the US at a JAA school. Unless it has changed the format of the course was 3 hours dual with an instructor in which he got you used to the perspective of flying at night, nav and of course the landings.
After that you have to log a further 2 hours of solo night flight in which you could do what you wanted i.e fly to the practice area, circuits, bit of night nav. If you came back alive after the 2 hours you passed!
I am at work so dont have log book or would have a look what it was signed off as, will have a look when I get home tonight.
Julian.
I did mine a while back in the US at a JAA school. Unless it has changed the format of the course was 3 hours dual with an instructor in which he got you used to the perspective of flying at night, nav and of course the landings.
After that you have to log a further 2 hours of solo night flight in which you could do what you wanted i.e fly to the practice area, circuits, bit of night nav. If you came back alive after the 2 hours you passed!
I am at work so dont have log book or would have a look what it was signed off as, will have a look when I get home tonight.
Julian.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Chocks,
I did mine at an FAA school, and had no problems.
Basically, take with a copy of LASORS or something similar so that you have the exact requirements in front of you, because your FAA instructor will not know what the requirements are. Then, make sure you meet all of the requirements.
When you send the paperwork to the CAA, you will need your instructor's signature. You can get the form off the CAA website and take it with you so that your instructor can sign it while you are there. Or, if you forget, just fax a copy of the appropriate page to your school once you're back in the UK and get them to fax it back with the instructor's signature - that's what I did, and the CAA didn't seem to mind.
If you do your training at an aifield with ATC, don't be surprised if the controllers query your stop-and-goes, that seems to be a UK-only idea which American controllers have never seen, but they will be able to accomodate you!
There was a query about the legality of solo flight at night when I was there. Assuming you have an FAA license based on your JAA license (which is the most common way of doing things), this license will not allow you to fly at night in the US, because your JAA license doesn't allow you to fly at night (at least not yet). So you will require an FAA student license in order to be able to fly solo at night - and that means all the usual restrictions on student pilots, e.g. no carrying passengers. According to the FARs, you will also need an FAA medical - your JAA medical is good when used with your FAA license based on your JAR license, but not when used with your FAA student license. However, the CFI at my school spoke to his FAA representative, and told me that the FAA are aware of the problem, and they are quite happy for you to fly solo at night on your JAA medical - they intend to update the FARs at some point to represent this but it's way down on their priority list. You might like to get an FAA medical to cover your back.....
Not sure about the Visa requirements. I didn't have one, but thinking about it, I suppose it is training, so it should really be required. But if you're in the States doing a whole hour-building package and the night qualificaiton happens to be part of that, I don't think anyone would pick up on it.
Finally, don't take anything I say as gospel - it's well over 3 years since I did my night qualification, so things may have changed since then.
FFF
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I did mine at an FAA school, and had no problems.
Basically, take with a copy of LASORS or something similar so that you have the exact requirements in front of you, because your FAA instructor will not know what the requirements are. Then, make sure you meet all of the requirements.
When you send the paperwork to the CAA, you will need your instructor's signature. You can get the form off the CAA website and take it with you so that your instructor can sign it while you are there. Or, if you forget, just fax a copy of the appropriate page to your school once you're back in the UK and get them to fax it back with the instructor's signature - that's what I did, and the CAA didn't seem to mind.
If you do your training at an aifield with ATC, don't be surprised if the controllers query your stop-and-goes, that seems to be a UK-only idea which American controllers have never seen, but they will be able to accomodate you!
There was a query about the legality of solo flight at night when I was there. Assuming you have an FAA license based on your JAA license (which is the most common way of doing things), this license will not allow you to fly at night in the US, because your JAA license doesn't allow you to fly at night (at least not yet). So you will require an FAA student license in order to be able to fly solo at night - and that means all the usual restrictions on student pilots, e.g. no carrying passengers. According to the FARs, you will also need an FAA medical - your JAA medical is good when used with your FAA license based on your JAR license, but not when used with your FAA student license. However, the CFI at my school spoke to his FAA representative, and told me that the FAA are aware of the problem, and they are quite happy for you to fly solo at night on your JAA medical - they intend to update the FARs at some point to represent this but it's way down on their priority list. You might like to get an FAA medical to cover your back.....
Not sure about the Visa requirements. I didn't have one, but thinking about it, I suppose it is training, so it should really be required. But if you're in the States doing a whole hour-building package and the night qualificaiton happens to be part of that, I don't think anyone would pick up on it.
Finally, don't take anything I say as gospel - it's well over 3 years since I did my night qualification, so things may have changed since then.
FFF
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With regard to the paperwork and the pre CPL requirements, is it possible just to fly the required hours, structured as stipulated by the CAA and have the night qualification issued when applying for the CPL? If so, will countersignatures from the instructors in my logbook be sufficient or will the paperwork need signing by them? Only reason I ask this is that I'll have been to two different schools by then to complete my NQ and should have it complete the week before I start my CPL course, at different FTO.
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Hi
According to the Bible (lasors) the requirement is this:
5 hours night flying as Pilot of Aeroplanes,
comprising of at least 3 hours dual
instruction, including 1 hour cross-country
navigation. and 5 solo take-offs and 5 full-stop
landings.
More here:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20D.pdf
I gatehr from this that they require you to have this experience. Where you gain this isn't stated. They also don't state what signatures you need.
I would assume that your logbook would need to indicate this experience and naturally the 3 hours dual instruction should be signed by the instructor.
Hope this helps.
According to the Bible (lasors) the requirement is this:
5 hours night flying as Pilot of Aeroplanes,
comprising of at least 3 hours dual
instruction, including 1 hour cross-country
navigation. and 5 solo take-offs and 5 full-stop
landings.
More here:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/SECTION%20D.pdf
I gatehr from this that they require you to have this experience. Where you gain this isn't stated. They also don't state what signatures you need.
I would assume that your logbook would need to indicate this experience and naturally the 3 hours dual instruction should be signed by the instructor.
Hope this helps.
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Thanks all for your helpful info. Yup, i've got a pdf of LASORS on my computer but it scares me! I always think there'll be something I'll overlook.
So it looks like i can just do the required hours and experience with an FAA instructor. And I think I will need an FAA Class 3 medical ($50).
Thanks for the help - i was about to relocate to the other side of LA to a less than reputable school (that specifically advertises JAA night qualification). Looks like i can, in fact, do it at the current place I'm hour building from.
Only grey area is doing it on a Visa Waiver without an M1 visa (required for "training"). It just seems like a such a piddly bit of training - hardly more than the check ride i took before hiring out here - that it shouldn't be a problem.
So it looks like i can just do the required hours and experience with an FAA instructor. And I think I will need an FAA Class 3 medical ($50).
Thanks for the help - i was about to relocate to the other side of LA to a less than reputable school (that specifically advertises JAA night qualification). Looks like i can, in fact, do it at the current place I'm hour building from.
Only grey area is doing it on a Visa Waiver without an M1 visa (required for "training"). It just seems like a such a piddly bit of training - hardly more than the check ride i took before hiring out here - that it shouldn't be a problem.
Where JAR-FCL 1 refers to an instructor, it means an instructor who holds a JAA licence and rating or is otherwise qualified under Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.300 (i.e. is employed by and has been standardised by an approved FTO). You cannot just do the required hours for the JAA night qualification with any old FAA instructor. It would also not be wise to attempt to undertake flight training in the US without the necessary visa.