Spin training in most school is rubbish

[A7E Driver]

I think you may have missed the point Southern Cross. Unfortunately, spin training acutally increased the number of accidents. I think Moth has a better idea --- for those really interested, create a syllabus POST PPL for a spin check-out. The "weakness" in the training system today is not the absence of spin training, but rather, not enough emphasis on handling the aircraft in slow flight conditions (using rudders only, etc.), recognising the approach to stall, and practicing the recovery from incipient stall. There is no need to risk life, limb and aircraft by practicing spins (other than as a part of an aerobatics course). My opinion anyway ...

[hugh flung_dung]

The quality of SSAT is bound to vary, just like other aspects of training. Instructors (like every other profession) come in all varieties from excellent to less than excellent, even the good ones aren't good at everything on every trip of every day. Training aeroplane types are not all equally good at demonstrating the different aspects of flight, I seem to recall that part of the reason that spinning was removed was because not all "modern" training aircraft were cleared for deliberate spins.

Although I don't do very much basic PPL training (mostly aeros, multi, IMC or tailwheel) I always try to encourage PPL studes to do at least one spin trip. All aircraft are capable of spinning if encouraged in the right way, IMHO the chances of a PPL recovering by themselves if they have never seen a spin before are nil - their only hope is if the acft spirals out of it.
This is not to say that spinning is dangerous, simply that it can be a little overwhelming the first time you experience it - after a few they become fun.

So my vote is firmly in the "it should be part of the syllabus" lobby, if some FIs are uncomfortable with this they should receive additional training. I also think that some aeros experience should be mandatory for all FIs and that the sky should always be blue and that Melinda Messenger and Angelina Jolie should take a personal interest in slightly older FIs and that..... but the realities of life will prevent many of these wishes coming true.

So, if you're at all worried about stalling or spinning the advice is to find an experienced sympathetic instructor with a suitable aircraft (Tomahawk, Bulldog, T67, Citabria, or something more exotic) and treat yourself to a session of spinning. It will make you a safer and more competent pilot. If you fly something that will spin inverted or flat (Yak comes to mind) then find an aeros instructor and go and explore this part of the envelope in safety before it sneaks out from a dark corner when you're not expecting it.

Here endeth the sermon.

[Fuji Abound]

Why are the stats so poor? There would seem to be only two possible explanations. Either instructors in general are poorly trained to teach spin recovery, or the aircraft are inadequately maintained. I guess there is also some sort of middle ground in that the wrong aircraft types are used, but this must ultimately come back to the instructors who are willing to teach in this type of aircraft.

My own experience, and probably because it has been out of the syllabus for so long, is that there are not that many instructors comfortable with spinning themselves, let alone prepared to sort the student out when he freezes on the yoke / stick.

One arguement is that the student will benefit just from experiencing a fully developed spin. There may be some truth in this, and perhaps it should be a requirement that students have a spin demonstrated to them. Maybe instructors would be happy with this, and maybe the benefits would be greater than the risks.

Spin training, as with aero training, is a whole different ball game. The instructor needs to be comfortable with allowing the student to see the spin fully developed, and repeating the exercise sufficiently so that the student is comfortable with the recovery. Argueably an accidental spin is most likely to develop from an unusual attitude, so the instructor may want to go an address this issue. Seems to be that is a lot with which to deal. Would the instructors be comfortable with it, is there time in the training to deal with it properly, and are the aircraft available for spin training?

[Acker Demick]

I expect (hope!) that most will agree that PPLs should continue to practice their "upper air" skills after they qualify, but my impression is that a large proportion do not. Why? -- well, what is the worst that can happen if you practice stalls, slow flight etc. solo? - answer: you might spin. If I had not had the benefit of spin training when I did my PPL, I would be very wary of solo practice of upper air exercises because I might get into a dangerous manoeuvre that I had no first-hand experience of, and that could conceivably kill me.

In the UK, loss of control accidents now rival CFIT as the biggest killer of GA pilots. A pilot who regularly practices upper-air stuff is unlikely to become a loss-of-control statistic. If every PPL had training in spin recovery, far more weekend pilots would have the confidence to work at their handling skills, and would be safer pilots as a result.

Lets make spinning compulsory again in the PPL!

AD

[Rallye Driver]

I agree that PPLs shown have some spin training. I know a lot of PPLs that went on to do an IMC rating very soon after getting their licences but are now reluctant to use those skills because they don't feel comfortable being in that situation - where a loss of concentration could easily lead to a spin or spiral dive.

I decided that it would make more sense for me to do some aerobatic training first, which is why I'm working my way through a type conversion onto the Yak 52. This includes basic aeros and what to do if they go wrong and you end up in an unusual attitude.

So far I've done two sessions of spins and one comprehensive session of stalls and dynamic stalls. The Yak drops a wing, and the full stall on a left turn in approach configuration is particularly spectacular as the torque tends to roll you inverted.

I enjoyed doing the spins and have more to do (inverted and flat). But it is a whole different ball game in an aircraft which is designed for such manouevres, from one which is "semi aerobatic". I know someone who was demonstrated a power-on spin in an Aerobat by an examiner a couple of weeks ago. They started at over four thousand feet and the aircraft finally snapped out of it at about 800! Not a fun scenario.

We all have to do a two yearly check with an instructor. I know a lot of people whinge about this, but surely that is precisely the time to get a bit of practice in things that have been neglected or never done at all. Spinning could be one of them.

RD

[stiknruda]

As a PPL I spin regularly, I enjoy it, it gives me a buzz - I believe that it makes me more proficient in aircraft control.

I don't believe that it should be compulsory for PPL training but it should be so for higher ratings and should be strongly encouraged for PPL students and holders (insurance incentives, etc).

My early experiences of spinning in a C150 were not even remotely enjoyable and I was frightened. I spent some time with a qualified chap in an aerobatically competent aeroplane and it was a whole different experience.

In my aircraft, I have "experimented" with in-spin aileron, out-spin aileron and differing power settings but only at great height (the firmament!)and only after self briefing myself on exactly what the sortie will include with recovery heights and that magic decision height about leaving the aircraft.

I enjoy it enormously, I take it more seriously than almost anything else in aviation but I wouldn't force anyone to do it. I no longer spin inverted for fun as I just do not enjoy it as much as the right way up.

I do believe aerobatics makes me a better pilot purely in terms of aircraft handling.


If in doubt find a sympathetic instructor with an aeroplane designed for aerobatics and go out and play.

Stik

[Vedeneyev]

Static Discharge, it may be true that the total number of spin accidents was higher with spin training included in the syllabus, but I don't believe phrases like:

"There is no need to risk life, limb and aircraft by practicing spins"

help the situation. With all respect to your superlative flying experience, I'm sure you'll agree with me that spinning an aircraft is not risking life and limb - it's a maneouvre in which the pilot is in complete control of the aircraft at all times.

I put it to you that if simulated engine failures were removed from training there would be fewer accidents during training due to carb icing, poor student judgement, poor instructor awareness, increased probability of mechanical failure etc... But no one would suggest removing that essential training from the syllabus.

I don't live in fear of my engine quitting every time I go up as I feel conident I'd know how to deal with it through my regular practice. Unfortunately I believe a lot of pilots live in fear of spins through their own lack of confidence in knowing what will happen and what they should do about it.

You would have to be flying a pretty funky aircraft to get into an unrecoverable spin. Most training aircraft are by no means funky. I hypothesise that the increased accident rate during spin training is due to poor instructors failing to take the appropriate action during a student's botched recovery, or allowing insufficient height for such an occasion.

Getting to a situation in normal flight past the sloppy controls, past the light buffet, past the heavy buffet, and most probably past the stall warner, then grossly mishandling the aircraft in the recovery is a remote possibility, but so is an engine out and how much weighting is there on that in any training syllabus?

I also believe spin training greatly hones handling skills, airmanship and confidence.

And those are my reasons why spin training should be included in the syllabus for what it's worth. (And SD, i didn't mean to single you out - apologies - just your comment encompassed a real problem that exists withing the flying community)

[samson.]

My personal view is that you only really have a feel for an aircraft when you have flown it at the edge of its envelope. For example, you only know how hard you can turn by having previously carried out a max rate turn, and noticed the point at which the aircraft starts to stall. Aerobatics are another example. It is easy to overcook say, a loop by pulling too hard and g-stalling, but if you have practiced, you can pull just hard enough to get the most out of the aircraft, but not stall.

I feel the same way about spinning. I learnt to fly with the military, and certainly in their basic training, currency for spinning is one month - you must spin every month to be allowed to do aeros solo. This approach means that spinning and spin recovery becomes a non-event, and as my instructor said a 'drill, not a skill' - i.e. it should be second nature, and not require thought. Regular spinning like this means that you are far more likely to recognise the spin before it becomes fully developed, and be able to recover more quickly. I have only been in an unintentional spin once solo, and I had recovered it before I had really thought about what had happened. There was no question of freezing on the controls - not a reflection of my brilliance, but more of my training. This is how it should be.

For spinning to be painless, and not too scarey, it should be carried out to a formula - above a certain height, for at least 2 or three turns, with full pro spin controls (any less than that and you may go high-rotational, which is not fun). The spin and incipient spin should be practiced separately - ie. recover at first sign of autorotation, for the incipient, and allow 3 turns for the full.

It is a shame that spinning is so legendary, and is the subject of so many bar stories. It really isn't that bad, provided you know what to do. I think any serious pilot ought to go on a couple of spinning and aeros trips in an aerobatic aircraft, with an aerobatic instructor, so that they can easily recognise a spin, and then recover automatically. While not everybody would choose to go spinning every day for the fun of it (I certainly wouldn't), I think pilots should have an appreciation of how to deal with them.

Samson

[Whirlybird]

Someone (can't remember who) suggested doing spins as part of the biannual check. Well, I wanted to do this during mine a couple of weeks ago. But before we could do it "officially", the aircraft (a C152) tried to spin during a stall. The instructor recovered it before it was fully developed, but I was already feeling quite ill, and we had to abandon any more attempts at anything like that. I'd still like to do it. I'm not scared of it, so don't tell me the feeling sick is due to nerves; it isn't. But I don't see how I'll ever manage a long enough session to learn anything. Maybe I should stick to helicopters, but since I want to keep my PPL(A) too, I agree that learning spin recovery would be a good idea, in theory. But in practice, how am I going to manage it? Any suggestions?

[Skylark4]

Glider Pilots are still taught spinning but the we spend a lot of time in rough air, circling, at high angles of bank and low speed. Asking for trouble isn`t it?

Most training gliders are not that easy to spin, they tend to require a bootful of rudder input just at the point of stall and this is not the way anyone is going to get into an inadvertent spin. Try to get your aircraft to spin by circling whilst going slower and slower until something happens. Unless your aircraft has some very unpleasant characteristics, it is surprisingly difficult to make it spin.

I have heard that the `usual` way to get your aircraft to spin in on the approach is to cross the controls trying to see if there are other aircraft trying for your bit of air hidden under your outside wing. Haven`t got around to trying that one at height yet.

Not showing a student what a spin looks like from the inside at the very least is sheer stupidity. If spin training is not included in the PPL syllabus then the first spin the student sees will probably kill him unless he is high enough for the aircraft to sort itself out as most will do if left alone but will he leave it alone? Spins Must be taught.

Mike W

[GayTangle]

When I did my PPL in the UK in 1982 Spin training was mandatory (but not tested on the GFT, istr). So I did spinning right after first solo, within 10 hours of my first lesson. I'm still scared to do them, and in fact haven't for years (I do stall practices approx every 10 flying hours/calendar month though).
I think, objectively, the initial problem was two-fold: inadequate pre-spin brief, and an instructor with no person-skills. So, I didn't know what was going on, and he didn't care or notice my fear.

Keep it in the syllabus (quite late on, I'd suggest) but even more importantly you instructors, look after your student. Your influence can last many many years - for better or worse.
GT.

[meslag]

One of the problems encountered with students who have been demostrated spinning before is that they are scared of spining. This i believe, is because they have been taught in the manner in which i was. That is, slow the aircraft down and near the stall, full elevator and full rudder..... the aircraft sort of flicks rapidly into a spin... thus scared student. Whilst teaching aerobatics, we taught a very controlled method into the spin which students were surprised at... and sometimes even enjoyed. This is because most wanna be airline pilot instructors dont know the first thing about spinning an aircraft... they only demostrate what the last wanna-be airline pilot taught them. More understanding of the art is needed from instuctor not just repeating the course notes..

[Tiger_ Moth]

Can I just say that I dont know what the big fuss about stalling is and it shouldnt be compared with spinning. Before I did stalls I thought they were nothing big and would be easy to get out of and now that ive done them I still think that. All that happens is that the nose goes down. If you think about it it would be harder to keep a plane stalled than to unstall it which would probably happen even if you left the controls. I know Tiger Moths are meant to be tame stallers but still.
Spins are completely different, they are like aerobatics. I havent actually covered spins yet but I know what to do, how to get in and out of them and my instructor demonstrated one. It was fun!
I think that its important that spins are taught well because even if you're in something that you dont want to spin you should know how to handle it if it does. An explanation is not good enough.

Has anyone ever heard of a large airliner being spun? That would be a novelty.

And: Do ppls HAVE to be taught and be able to demonstrate getting out of a fully developed spin or not? Or do they only have to be able to prevent a spin?

[Whirlybird]

Tiger Moth,

Spins are no longer in the PPL syllabus at all. As far as I know, they were taken out because more people were killing themselves practising them than were going to be killed be getting into one inadvertently. That's more or less what this thread is about, at least I think so.

Concerning stalling, you're right, and then again you're not. Anything in aviation is easy when you're ready for it, not overloaded, and have altitude and therefore time. But problems in flying don't occur under those ideal conditions. One of the most likely times and places for an unexpected stall is coming into land in difficult conditions - are you sure it would be that easy to cope if you stalled due to windshear at 300 ft with full flap? After nearly 200 hours, I'm not. Or what happened to me a bit back; I let a friend take over in straight and level flight, and she panicked and froze on the controls. Luckily we were at 4000 feet and she relaxed again after a few seconds and I took over; otherwise I would have been very glad to have had a bit of time to sort things out. It's all too easy to get over confident; I know, I've done it.

[Fuji Abound]

Tiger Moth - I agree with the previous writer. The reason why stalls, and previously spins, were included in the PPL is so that the pilot is familiar with the recovery action to be taken and likely to be able to execute this during times of high workload without too much thought. Stalls and spins that are unexpected are always potentially dangerous I would have thought. Yes, in some types the stall may be pretty benign and unlikely to devlop into a spin, whilst in other types a stall can be rapidly followed by a pronounced wing drop and spin. In any event, height loss is always rapid. I reckon that pilots who do not regularly refresh recovery from stalls and spins are just that much slower to apply the correct technique - at 5000 feet it might not matter too much but I guess again that is not the one thats going to catch us out.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There really is a load of old tosh being written here.

Most PPL's fly a/c such as 152/172 etc. Spin recovery on these is only a matter of releasing the rudder and easing out of the dive. I agree that if spin training is taught then it should be a system that works on all planes not just your average Cessna/Cherokee. Which you really have to try hard to spin in the first place.

The main point is being missed here tho', if someone is incompetent enough to get into a spin turning finals (where most people manage it) at around 700 ft, does anybody really think that they will have the presence of mind to recover in the very short space of time before impact?? I don't think so.

If people are to undertake any sort of aero's then spin training MUST be mandatory, personally before any aero sortie with a student, I make sure they can recite the spin recovery very accurately and then make them prove this to me once we are actually up and flying.

As to the comment that Wannabe airline pilots are to scared to teach spin recovery properly, well I'll treat that with the disdain that it deserves. I know this 'cos I am a wannabe (actually v.soon will be) airline pilot, but at the moment am a professional instructor and I take my job very seriously indeed, if that means going spinning, you make sure you do it as well as you teach the rest of the syllabus.

If people are wary of the spin, that's actually no bad thing. If you are wary of it then you are more likely to avoid it. The thought of many of the PPL's I fly with going off and spinning on their own fills me with dread.
Spins should never be taken lightly, especially if you don't fly as often as you should to keep totally current. Military pilots are very different from your average PPL and if they have to do a spin check every month, how often should you do them?

Believe it or not though, I do think that spinning should be in the syllabus to stop people being scared of the a/c, The number of times I've had students turn to me and say 'is that it?' As they've heard all the horror stories in the bar from people who should really know better.

Spinning can be fun, but it can also be dangerous if the correct precautions are not taken, how many do the weight and balance calcs before going??

Just remember the tragic crash on Osea island (10nm N Southend) when two people were killed in a Commmander whilst spin training.
Whatever the cause was, it needn't of happened. One of our members was first on scene and after he told us about it all, aero and spin training stopped for a while. RIP.

Just make sure that you actually know what you are doing and that the plane is capable. After that enjoy them, then get somone capable to teach you aero's then you can really learn how to fly a plane!
Quick tip, 10 hours of aero's is worth 100 hours straight and level, when it comes to handling finesse.

Spleen vented, time for bed.


[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: Say again s l o w l y ]

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm a latecomer to this thread, but stalling and spinning is a subject on which I have strong views.

Any aircraft used in a flying club for stall or spin training is specifically designed and certified as being benign in that respect. The standards vary slightly, but are generally in the order of max. 20° wing drop at the stall, and able to recover from a spin within one turn.

Not all aeroplanes are like that, I have experienced a 12 turn spin and watched (from telemetry) a 19 turn spin - both should have been 4-6 turns. I have experienced 60° wing drop IN AN AIRLINER at the point of stall, and know of one aircraft that can roll 180° at the stall if the flaps are down. The Bulldog is well known for pleasant spinning characteristics,until you put on a bit of in-spin aileron....

Yes learn stalling, and spinning. By all means state that "stalls in a C152 / PA28 are a non-event", but you train for the day that you are flying something non-benign when it bites. I know of a C150 which recently nearly killed somebody in the spin - almost certainly down to a leading edge dent - it could happen to any of you, it's already happened to me but good training (AND PRACTICE) got me out of it.

G

[john_tullamarine]

Like Genghis, I have only just seen this discussion and definitely want to echo his comments.

Two thoughts result -

(a) in Oz, unless things have changed in recent years, 172s, Cherokees and the like are Normal (and for some models Utility) Category and not approved for spinning and other aerobatic style things. Is it so very different overseas ? .. or am I just being a bit of a fuddy duddy ?

(b) one CAN get into unpleasant unintended or uncommanded situations from time to time.

(i) Many years ago as a young chap, I had a moment or two of excitement when a Blanik didn't release properly on a booming day at a height not all that much above the ground.... and I subsequently found the Supercub upside down and stopped before I could pull the bung to get rid of the glider (the glider instructor did the same thing at much the same time and we ended up losing the towrope .. pity about that).

Now, this situation was not at all commanded or intended by me .. but I was stuck with the problem.

End result was a recovery nearly in amongst the tree tops.

(ii) on another occasion, while doing some flight testing post mod on a PA31, a stall check saw the aircraft with landing flap go rapidly through the vertical in roll.

.... food for thought, perhaps ... if a chap hadn't been exposed to such things before they happened ?

[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: john_tullamarine ]

[Evo7]

Genghis and John T

What would you chaps recommend that a 10 or so hour pre-solo spamcanner should do, then? At the moment I'm flying an almost unstallable PA-28, so I'm planning on getting some stall/spin lessons in a Tomahawk post-solo, but it sounds like you chaps are talking about learning something altogether more hostile??

cheers

[Tiger_ Moth]

Whirly, Tigers dont have flaps but should be able to recover from a stall in under 300ft with ease. Obviously if you do anything low enough its dangerous, even a turn, if low enough could be dangerous but I still dont think spins are particularly hard although of course they could be dangerous, if low enough, like everything.
What do you mean they froze on the controls? They froze in straight and level, or they froze in a stall or what? Even if they did couldnt you just use your controls to get out of it?