Spin training in most school is rubbish
The Original Whirly
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Tiger Moth,
Yes, of course an aircraft can recover from a stall in less than 300 ft. But can YOU, if it happens unexpectedly, and perhaps when you're tired and have had a difficult flight? You don't know.
By froze on the controls I mean she tensed up and wouldn't let go. Which meant I couldn't use mine, and was just about to hit her - I thought I'd have to - when she responded to my gentle reassurance and relaxed so I could take over. Not nice. I'll think very hard before I let my passengers have a go again. But the point I was making was that a stall in such circumstances would not be easy to recover from, especially if I'd still been fighting for control.
Tiger, you seem to think you know all about flying, when you have very very little experience. It's not like you think it is. When I got my PPL, I thought I knew it all - well, most of it anyway. Now with over 300 hours (f/w and rotary combined), I realise just how incredibly little I know. Can I suggest you try and learn from others' mistakes, in case you don't live long enough to learn from your own?
[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: Whirlybird ]
Yes, of course an aircraft can recover from a stall in less than 300 ft. But can YOU, if it happens unexpectedly, and perhaps when you're tired and have had a difficult flight? You don't know.
By froze on the controls I mean she tensed up and wouldn't let go. Which meant I couldn't use mine, and was just about to hit her - I thought I'd have to - when she responded to my gentle reassurance and relaxed so I could take over. Not nice. I'll think very hard before I let my passengers have a go again. But the point I was making was that a stall in such circumstances would not be easy to recover from, especially if I'd still been fighting for control.
Tiger, you seem to think you know all about flying, when you have very very little experience. It's not like you think it is. When I got my PPL, I thought I knew it all - well, most of it anyway. Now with over 300 hours (f/w and rotary combined), I realise just how incredibly little I know. Can I suggest you try and learn from others' mistakes, in case you don't live long enough to learn from your own?
[ 05 September 2001: Message edited by: Whirlybird ]
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Tiger
Hear hear to Whirly's comments. It's great to see your enthusiasm and commitment to flying - we can use some keen new blood!
I have a few hundred hours too and the more I fly, the more I realise how much of a learner I am.
Also I am fortunate enough to have access to some ATPLs and they are still learning everyday too. They would not treat a stall at 300' lightly!
Keep the posts coming, I always enjoy your perspective.
Hear hear to Whirly's comments. It's great to see your enthusiasm and commitment to flying - we can use some keen new blood!
I have a few hundred hours too and the more I fly, the more I realise how much of a learner I am.
Also I am fortunate enough to have access to some ATPLs and they are still learning everyday too. They would not treat a stall at 300' lightly!
Keep the posts coming, I always enjoy your perspective.
The first time I learnt to fly, spin training was compulsory and full spin recovery was included in my GFT. This was in a Tiger Moth and, although I never spun the Tiger Moth again, the sort of flying one tends to do in a Moth probably means that the risk of a fully developed spin is more likely than in your average tourer and I believe it should be included as a type check for this type of aircraft. However, I feel that more attention should have been given then, and certainly should be now, to avoiding the spin. Flying the Tiger and gliders tends to develop healthy instincts in correct use of rudder at low speeds, which those who learn on PA28/C152 types, as I did the second time, do not appear to learn. In fact I was not given any training in this at all but, like riding a bike, I was pleased that my instincts are still there. This, in my view, is why so many serious accidents seem to happen during the final turn, particularly after a loss of power or during high turbulence.
In my own flying I do sometimes allow the nose to go too high when I am distracted during the final turn and, riding as a passenger, I know it is not uncommon with other more experienced pilots than me. Surely it is how we instinctively react to that situation, when we first sense the continuing wing drop, which is important and should be thoroughly trained into student pilots.
On a previous thread I shared my one experience of an accidental, incipient spin while trying to burst balloons. At that time, with plenty of height, it suited me to let the spin develop for half a turn to get back quickly to the balloons but, if that had happened on the final turn, no more Tiger and perhaps no more me. Hardly a month goes by when the AAIB reports do not describe a fatal final turn turning into a spin.
Something needs to change.
In my own flying I do sometimes allow the nose to go too high when I am distracted during the final turn and, riding as a passenger, I know it is not uncommon with other more experienced pilots than me. Surely it is how we instinctively react to that situation, when we first sense the continuing wing drop, which is important and should be thoroughly trained into student pilots.
On a previous thread I shared my one experience of an accidental, incipient spin while trying to burst balloons. At that time, with plenty of height, it suited me to let the spin develop for half a turn to get back quickly to the balloons but, if that had happened on the final turn, no more Tiger and perhaps no more me. Hardly a month goes by when the AAIB reports do not describe a fatal final turn turning into a spin.
Something needs to change.
Evo,
A good question, well asked, but not so easy to answer.
Stalling and spinning are such complex subjects that in the test flying world there are people recognised as being specialists in the subject. The majority of people however, like you, get little chance to truly understand the subject. My congratulations on knowing your limitations, like Whirly, I had a few more hours before I learned how little I knew.
If you get a chance to experience an "interesting" spin, do - it's a very educational experience. The Bulldog is a good such aircraft, as is the C150 in certain circumstances. If possible try and fly with an ex-military, or an aerobatic pilot who REALLY understands spinning. Probably the best chap in the UK for this is David Scouller, the CFI at Old Sarum, who used to be a very senior military test pilot and has a couple of Bulldogs at his disposal for teaching aeros and spinning.
But realistically, your best bet is by reading and talking. There are a couple of good books out there about spinning, some more sensible than others. My personal bible (apart from stuff with my name on the cover, which modesty prevents me mentioning) is the spinning chapter in Darrol Stinton's unparalleled "Handling Qualities and Flight Testing of the Aeroplane". Darrol is probably the most knowledgable person in the world on the subject of small aeroplane handling, and his books are well worth the money (despite not being cheap).
Hope this helps,
G
A good question, well asked, but not so easy to answer.
Stalling and spinning are such complex subjects that in the test flying world there are people recognised as being specialists in the subject. The majority of people however, like you, get little chance to truly understand the subject. My congratulations on knowing your limitations, like Whirly, I had a few more hours before I learned how little I knew.
If you get a chance to experience an "interesting" spin, do - it's a very educational experience. The Bulldog is a good such aircraft, as is the C150 in certain circumstances. If possible try and fly with an ex-military, or an aerobatic pilot who REALLY understands spinning. Probably the best chap in the UK for this is David Scouller, the CFI at Old Sarum, who used to be a very senior military test pilot and has a couple of Bulldogs at his disposal for teaching aeros and spinning.
But realistically, your best bet is by reading and talking. There are a couple of good books out there about spinning, some more sensible than others. My personal bible (apart from stuff with my name on the cover, which modesty prevents me mentioning) is the spinning chapter in Darrol Stinton's unparalleled "Handling Qualities and Flight Testing of the Aeroplane". Darrol is probably the most knowledgable person in the world on the subject of small aeroplane handling, and his books are well worth the money (despite not being cheap).
Hope this helps,
G
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Nothing like practice.
Pre-solo spin training is mandatory at our glider club, as they are pretty easy to spin. One of our members spun a 1-26 whilst wringing just a little too much out of a thermal, and duly recovered safely.
An accidental stall and departure into a spin -- the first time -- is quite a bit different to just doing them on purpose in training, and is much scarier.
You better have had lots of practice ones, before one bites you for real -- because these aircraft ***can and will*** spin ...
FWIW: My first flight instructor demoed a couple of spins in a C152 but he was obviously wetting himself, and certainly wouldn't let me try it ... It was a refreshing change to join a gliding club and get it covered properly ... with a few wingovers thrown in on the same flight ...
[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: kabz ]
Pre-solo spin training is mandatory at our glider club, as they are pretty easy to spin. One of our members spun a 1-26 whilst wringing just a little too much out of a thermal, and duly recovered safely.
An accidental stall and departure into a spin -- the first time -- is quite a bit different to just doing them on purpose in training, and is much scarier.
You better have had lots of practice ones, before one bites you for real -- because these aircraft ***can and will*** spin ...
FWIW: My first flight instructor demoed a couple of spins in a C152 but he was obviously wetting himself, and certainly wouldn't let me try it ... It was a refreshing change to join a gliding club and get it covered properly ... with a few wingovers thrown in on the same flight ...
[ 06 September 2001: Message edited by: kabz ]
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Genghis
Thanks for the reply. The problem with reading about spins is that it is rather like the time aged 11 (in my case) that you discover that your parents have a copy of The Joy of Sex. You can read the words, but they don't mean much. That's why I'm going to go see for myself, but your idea of trying to get hold of a Bulldog and an experienced FI is a good one. May be a little while before that happens but I'll do it.
Stalls, even in a humble Warrior, surprised me quite a bit because I found - and still find - it hard to react to the stall instinctively, especially with a bit of FI-induced wing drop. I get there, but it still takes me a bit too long. If it did happen at 300 feet, with the added stress that must bring, then I'd worry about how well I'd cope right now. Practice will hopefully improve things. I'd never hope to see a stall in my post-PPL days, but you never know so better learn how to deal with it. Likewise spins.
Oh, and I'm firmly of the opinion that I know nothing about flying. First trial lesson taught me that (what, so it's not like FS98!!) and nothing yet has changed my mind...
[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: Evo7 ]
Thanks for the reply. The problem with reading about spins is that it is rather like the time aged 11 (in my case) that you discover that your parents have a copy of The Joy of Sex. You can read the words, but they don't mean much. That's why I'm going to go see for myself, but your idea of trying to get hold of a Bulldog and an experienced FI is a good one. May be a little while before that happens but I'll do it.
Stalls, even in a humble Warrior, surprised me quite a bit because I found - and still find - it hard to react to the stall instinctively, especially with a bit of FI-induced wing drop. I get there, but it still takes me a bit too long. If it did happen at 300 feet, with the added stress that must bring, then I'd worry about how well I'd cope right now. Practice will hopefully improve things. I'd never hope to see a stall in my post-PPL days, but you never know so better learn how to deal with it. Likewise spins.
Oh, and I'm firmly of the opinion that I know nothing about flying. First trial lesson taught me that (what, so it's not like FS98!!) and nothing yet has changed my mind...
[ 07 September 2001: Message edited by: Evo7 ]
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Hi everyone
Just a sense check on the PA28 (taoer wing, i.e. 151, 161, 181, 200R, 236)
Don;t forget that it may be a pussy cat in the stall, but that if you do lose it when you have an aft CofG, you can enter a flat spin.
Please read the POH - its unlikely, but potentially fatal.
When all is said and done, spamcans can still kill careless pilots.
Just a sense check on the PA28 (taoer wing, i.e. 151, 161, 181, 200R, 236)
Don;t forget that it may be a pussy cat in the stall, but that if you do lose it when you have an aft CofG, you can enter a flat spin.
Please read the POH - its unlikely, but potentially fatal.
When all is said and done, spamcans can still kill careless pilots.
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Whirly,
I dont think i know everything about flying but I do think stalls are not quite as dangerous as people often make out although I admit it would be worse if unexpected. I know you know a lot more about flying than me and accept what you say. The point I think I was trying to make was that in comparison to a spin a stall is tame. I think spins could be very dangerous especially if low. I noticed that we often side slip a lot on finals to lose height. This uses quite a lot of rudder at low speed so I wondered if anyone had ever heard of a Tiger Moth spinning on finals as a result of a poorly conducted side slip?
Do you mean they just froze for no reason in straight and level flight? Youd be done for in a Tiger Moth!
By the way I know its forbidden for ppls to let passengers have a go at the controls but is this a rule that everyone breaks?
I dont think i know everything about flying but I do think stalls are not quite as dangerous as people often make out although I admit it would be worse if unexpected. I know you know a lot more about flying than me and accept what you say. The point I think I was trying to make was that in comparison to a spin a stall is tame. I think spins could be very dangerous especially if low. I noticed that we often side slip a lot on finals to lose height. This uses quite a lot of rudder at low speed so I wondered if anyone had ever heard of a Tiger Moth spinning on finals as a result of a poorly conducted side slip?
Do you mean they just froze for no reason in straight and level flight? Youd be done for in a Tiger Moth!
By the way I know its forbidden for ppls to let passengers have a go at the controls but is this a rule that everyone breaks?
Evo, Any sensible pilot should practice stalls regularly, I do a couple a month (along with PFLs).
Tiger, Passengers are perfectly permitted to handle the controls, it's just that the Captain is still responsible for whatever happens.
G
Tiger, Passengers are perfectly permitted to handle the controls, it's just that the Captain is still responsible for whatever happens.
G
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Tiger
Some stalls can be very vicious, e.g. departure stalls at high power settings resulting in the aircraft being thrown around violently - so don't be under the impression that they are all as comfortable as normal stalls.
I've never heard of a Tiger spinning in from side slipping, but that does not mean it could not happen - you need to ask a Tiger expert; I don't have any Tiger time, but normally to keep slips safe, you just keep the airspeed safe (i.e. somewhat higher than the best glide speed) - it's often said to be a little dangerous to slip high winged a/c with flaps extended because of the aerodynamics, but I must admit that I don't know about any ill effects with biplanes through lack of experience.
Slipping is a very useful skill unknown to many PPLs and is a great way of losing height quickly in spamcans, as well as Tigers!
Cheers
F3G
Some stalls can be very vicious, e.g. departure stalls at high power settings resulting in the aircraft being thrown around violently - so don't be under the impression that they are all as comfortable as normal stalls.
I've never heard of a Tiger spinning in from side slipping, but that does not mean it could not happen - you need to ask a Tiger expert; I don't have any Tiger time, but normally to keep slips safe, you just keep the airspeed safe (i.e. somewhat higher than the best glide speed) - it's often said to be a little dangerous to slip high winged a/c with flaps extended because of the aerodynamics, but I must admit that I don't know about any ill effects with biplanes through lack of experience.
Slipping is a very useful skill unknown to many PPLs and is a great way of losing height quickly in spamcans, as well as Tigers!
Cheers
F3G
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Side-slipping can be a good way of losing height in a low wing type. A Cessna with full flap and side slipping is not a sensible proposition as the airflow to the tail plane can be disturbed. Definately a way of spoiling your day.
Anyway I always tell students that if they have to side-slip then they've got the approach wrong. It should only ever be used as a last resort. >1000 ft/min descent at low level- not a good idea, best to keep it smooth and in control at all times. The reverse Bat out of hell approach makes me nervous!!!
Anyway I always tell students that if they have to side-slip then they've got the approach wrong. It should only ever be used as a last resort. >1000 ft/min descent at low level- not a good idea, best to keep it smooth and in control at all times. The reverse Bat out of hell approach makes me nervous!!!
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Evo7,
I concur with Genghis.
Stall/spin characteristics vary a lot according to the basic aircraft, aircraft loading, method/circumstances of entry, and subsequent control handling .. and probably a lot of other things not generally within my ken ... no doubt some of the TPs could go on at length on the subject.
I am all for (at the very least) exposure training both for familiarity with an aircraft's characteristics and manipulative confidence building, accident stats notwithstanding.
Many people don't like much in the way of varying g-loads - me included - but the fact still remains that a pilot, even while minding his/her own business, can inadvertently get into awkward situations - knowledge and confidence contribute a lot both to avoiding and getting out of such situations.
I trained in AirTourers in the 60s and sometime after first solo thought it appropriate to ask my God-like instructor whether we ought to have a look at these mysterious things... which we did, even though that aeroplane doesn't really do a spin as such. After my initial, quite disorienting, exposure .. which I remember very clearly ... dear old Cec wasn't into political correctness and student molly-coddling to any great extent .. I found subsequent aerobatic training, both visual and instrument, to be great fun and a great learning and confidence experience.
Perhaps contrary to your more youthful observations at the time and now inferred comparisons to flying, I am of the view that sex is a damned sight better fun than spinning .... but, then again, each activity requires generous helpings of sound basic training and subsequent dedication to continuation training for successful execution ... so I guess that they are in the same league after all.
I concur with Genghis.
Stall/spin characteristics vary a lot according to the basic aircraft, aircraft loading, method/circumstances of entry, and subsequent control handling .. and probably a lot of other things not generally within my ken ... no doubt some of the TPs could go on at length on the subject.
I am all for (at the very least) exposure training both for familiarity with an aircraft's characteristics and manipulative confidence building, accident stats notwithstanding.
Many people don't like much in the way of varying g-loads - me included - but the fact still remains that a pilot, even while minding his/her own business, can inadvertently get into awkward situations - knowledge and confidence contribute a lot both to avoiding and getting out of such situations.
I trained in AirTourers in the 60s and sometime after first solo thought it appropriate to ask my God-like instructor whether we ought to have a look at these mysterious things... which we did, even though that aeroplane doesn't really do a spin as such. After my initial, quite disorienting, exposure .. which I remember very clearly ... dear old Cec wasn't into political correctness and student molly-coddling to any great extent .. I found subsequent aerobatic training, both visual and instrument, to be great fun and a great learning and confidence experience.
Perhaps contrary to your more youthful observations at the time and now inferred comparisons to flying, I am of the view that sex is a damned sight better fun than spinning .... but, then again, each activity requires generous helpings of sound basic training and subsequent dedication to continuation training for successful execution ... so I guess that they are in the same league after all.
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Genghis,
Do you mean that a pilot who only has a PPL, no IR or anything, can let a passenger with no flying expierience use the controls? Im sure I was told that passengers couldnt touch the controls, has this rule been recently changed or something? Or have I been lied to?
Do you mean that a pilot who only has a PPL, no IR or anything, can let a passenger with no flying expierience use the controls? Im sure I was told that passengers couldnt touch the controls, has this rule been recently changed or something? Or have I been lied to?
