Light aircraft down in Dundee
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If, heaven forbid, this event had resulted in a fatality this thread would have been awash with people telling us to 'wait for the official report'.
Normally I hate smilies, but here goes;
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You are quite correct munnyspinner
Which is why I really hope the Board do a very complete investigation on this trip.
It really does have the potential to be the mother of all case studys, it really isn't a desire to stick the knife in the poor chap. It's just a real life accident which can and will be used to educate/reducate current/future pilots.
"Right mate its your hour with an instructor isn't it; read this...."
Which is why I really hope the Board do a very complete investigation on this trip.
It really does have the potential to be the mother of all case studys, it really isn't a desire to stick the knife in the poor chap. It's just a real life accident which can and will be used to educate/reducate current/future pilots.
"Right mate its your hour with an instructor isn't it; read this...."
So we are actually helping to compile "the official report".
And fortunately this event didn't result in a fatality, although that was more through good luck than anything else, so the PIC is available to tell all and sundry his view of events and defend his actions. Whether or not this represents wisdom and his best course of action under the circumstances is debatable.
FBW
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He's a mason - so no prosecution!
I'm sure that if he actually did anything illegal,the wheels of justice will grind.
Sorry, Vince, you come across as concieted and arrogant. One of the earlier posters came up with a really good teaching-aid.
Pour some water onto a tea-tray and walk round with it.
The tray is analogous to your big, flat tank...unless your aircraft attitude puts the fuel outlet at the lowest point AND you are flying absoloutely in balance, the usable fuel will slop away from the outlet.
IMO you have never bothered to pay attention to your sight-glasses until . at that last turn, the sight went from ~5L to empty...then you failed to connect "unbalanced turn....slop....can't suck the fuel "
That scenario SHOULD have been familiar and the apparent "sudden dissapearance" would not have caught you with your pants down.
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...and if we're to follow Cockney Steve's analysis, then setting off with proper reserves in the first place, and making sensible decisions along the way, would have prevented this whole laughable waste of time.
Intellectually adept though the pilot in question may be out of an aircraft, he's nothing but a liability when in one, so far as I can see, and as I said before, the bizarreness of his actions after the accident is a match only for the wretched series of errors which led to it.
Let's hope the folk in London get stuck into him properly.
Intellectually adept though the pilot in question may be out of an aircraft, he's nothing but a liability when in one, so far as I can see, and as I said before, the bizarreness of his actions after the accident is a match only for the wretched series of errors which led to it.
Let's hope the folk in London get stuck into him properly.
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Its got nothing to do with the folk in London under Scottish law.
The system up here is completely different.
Anyone getting done will be taken to court by the Proc fiscal. The CAA can advise them but that is as far as it goes.
Under the scottish system as well, the guilty cannot be charged the expense of bring the case to court.
So if your going to cock up scotland is the place to do it.
The system up here is completely different.
Anyone getting done will be taken to court by the Proc fiscal. The CAA can advise them but that is as far as it goes.
Under the scottish system as well, the guilty cannot be charged the expense of bring the case to court.
So if your going to cock up scotland is the place to do it.
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so the PIC is available to tell all and sundry his view of events and defend his actions. Whether or not this represents wisdom and his best course of action under the circumstances is debatable.
I have no doubts thet Biggles has not given the true picture of the events
One poster described his responses as those of a politician skirting around the answers but not really answering the questions.
I am equally sure that he is trying to guard his ego. There are enough facts to piece together a likely scenario. Far from being arrogant I am sure he really knows how lucky he is and the mistakes he made.
My own pilot X example in a posting above is a likely one. Infact if I was Biggles I would use it as well as the bereavement as why he got himself into such a mess.
I am an inexperienced pilot. I got into weather I am not trained to deal with because of "push on itis" I was desperate to be with my daughter.
I should have told ATC of my predicament but thought I could sort it myself which was a mistake. I have learnt my lesson and under normal circumstances would not have acted in that way. I am sorry.
If he is clever that is the approach he will make tail between his legs. If he is stupid which I dont believe he is he will state that he is a fantastic pilot who did nothing wrong then he will deserve anything he gets and should not continue flying.
Munnyspinner
Often that starts when flying when upset or not really in the loop.
Pace
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I really don't know to much about it apart from when my old PPL school getting done for operating an aircraft without a CofA.
It could very well be a PPruner, there are loads of Police/legal type PPL's about in scotland.
I presume some poor sod will get given the task of gathering all the relevant details together. Then in conjuction with the CAA legal types work out which pieces of legislation are thought to be of an issue. Then a report will get sent to the proc fiscal office who will decided what is to be done next.
Then if it is getting taken any further it will be the Proc Fiscal or one of his/her deputies who then take the case further.
If it does get taken futher it will be a major pain in the arse for all concerned and could very well bugger peoples holidays and roster patterns up.
But then again we could get a bash together and give the Grassmarket a good seeing to.
It could very well be a PPruner, there are loads of Police/legal type PPL's about in scotland.
I presume some poor sod will get given the task of gathering all the relevant details together. Then in conjuction with the CAA legal types work out which pieces of legislation are thought to be of an issue. Then a report will get sent to the proc fiscal office who will decided what is to be done next.
Then if it is getting taken any further it will be the Proc Fiscal or one of his/her deputies who then take the case further.
If it does get taken futher it will be a major pain in the arse for all concerned and could very well bugger peoples holidays and roster patterns up.
But then again we could get a bash together and give the Grassmarket a good seeing to.
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If it does get taken futher it will be a major pain in the arse for all concerned and could very well bugger peoples holidays and roster patterns up.
The CAA are unlikely to prosecute even in cases you think they would prosecute.
More likely a letter is my guess as long as his paperwork etc is in order
Pace
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Thats the point Pace, the CAA have nothing to do with deciding if there will be a prosecution. If the Fiscal deems it in the public interest they will take it further. It will depend very much on the way Scottish and Edi ATC word thier report and the "danger to the public" that was caused.
You might note I am only talking about the airspace bust...
The other parts of his trip who knows...
The CAA can't prosecute anyone in scotland. They can't reclaim costs. The only rights of access to the case are the same as any other member of the public who has an interest.
You might note I am only talking about the airspace bust...
The other parts of his trip who knows...
The CAA can't prosecute anyone in scotland. They can't reclaim costs. The only rights of access to the case are the same as any other member of the public who has an interest.
Last edited by mad_jock; 20th Aug 2009 at 18:35.
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Mad Jock....sorry to dissapoint but not one mention of Biggles 119.875 this morning....that said not many daft buggers wanting to fly in this weather...apart from the nice man from Sky News in his Twin squirrel!!
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Mad Jock
Ok but put it this way what could they try and bring charges for with what we already know? and what would that achieve? retraining is a different matter but they dont have powers in that direction. If all his paperwork is in order cannot see what they could do?
Pace
Ok but put it this way what could they try and bring charges for with what we already know? and what would that achieve? retraining is a different matter but they dont have powers in that direction. If all his paperwork is in order cannot see what they could do?
Pace
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Sorry added to the previous post while you were doing your post.
Basically it would be to do with his actions in the Scottish TMA and EDI controlled air space.
Endangering the Public.
Boo fishbang the wx was a bit pants down in the lowlands. Quite nice up north, unfortunately everyone still licking there wounds after......
So nobody wanting to experence my unique style of instructing
Basically it would be to do with his actions in the Scottish TMA and EDI controlled air space.
Endangering the Public.
Boo fishbang the wx was a bit pants down in the lowlands. Quite nice up north, unfortunately everyone still licking there wounds after......
So nobody wanting to experence my unique style of instructing
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Mad Jock
There is a difference between an experienced pilot busting CAS who should know better and a novice pilot who gets into a mess. ie someone who knowingly does wrong and someone who does wrong because he is Sh****g his pants.
We also dont know whether he actually bust CAS? he was given clearances which he appears to not have flown accurately. He also appears to have descended below an assigned level but he is a VFR pilot flying an aircraft not approved to fly IFR.
I would be really surprised if a prosecution is made by who ever. You also have to consider the position of ATC in all this. A microlight up at FL100, a pilot who didnt sound as if he knew what he was doing.
Did ATC ask his qualifications, level of experience did they ask whether he was in difficulties? Add in his mindset with the bereavement and desire to get to his daughter and I really think a prosecution would be pointless and negative exercise.
Pace
There is a difference between an experienced pilot busting CAS who should know better and a novice pilot who gets into a mess. ie someone who knowingly does wrong and someone who does wrong because he is Sh****g his pants.
We also dont know whether he actually bust CAS? he was given clearances which he appears to not have flown accurately. He also appears to have descended below an assigned level but he is a VFR pilot flying an aircraft not approved to fly IFR.
I would be really surprised if a prosecution is made by who ever. You also have to consider the position of ATC in all this. A microlight up at FL100, a pilot who didnt sound as if he knew what he was doing.
Did ATC ask his qualifications, level of experience did they ask whether he was in difficulties? Add in his mindset with the bereavement and desire to get to his daughter and I really think a prosecution would be pointless and negative exercise.
Pace
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I mentioned Biggles when passing by- doesn't that count, even though it was directly into your lughole, and not on the RT?
Hey Bigears but surely you noticed I was fast asleep and never heard a thing!!
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Pace, thereby lies the problem , if your may be right about PIC skirting around the 'truth'. i.e its what he's not said that matters. However, the onus on proof lies with the prosecution so PIC is innocent until proven guilty.
I am generally in the "string em up by the wotsits mob" when it comes to anything that compromises safety but, in this case, despite poor RT and an alleged infringment of airspace would it be in the public interest to prosecute? As a deterrent to others - perhaps. As a punishment - surely compulsory retraining would yield a better result.
As regards the actual crash, the Procurator would have to prove that PIC was negligent or wreckless in his conduct of the flight and that resulted in the crash ( although until a charge is brought I can only speculate as to whether this would be the appropriate test ) Again, as there were no injuries or damage to persons or property I think it is unlikley that PF would see that a prosecution is in the public interest. Conflicting evidence as a result of damage to the aircraft, lack of independent corroberation and the fact that the pilot claims that he had enugh fuel but that the donk conked out - might challenge a fiscal depute.
If, as has been mentioned, this had resulted in a fatality then in Scotland there would be a Fatal Accident Inquiry(FAI) which is a statutory public inquiry into the circumstances of a death.
Interestingly, a FAI cannot make any findings of fault/blame against individuals. Similarly,
So, it is over to the CAA to decide whether to seek a prosecution.
As a case study it may be text book - even if Vince might not agree!
Re the CTR Bust, at 7000' was he not out of the Edinburgh Zone but in the scottish TMA? I'm sorry , I don't have any charts with me today but that is Class D airspace above 6000ft and class E 2500 - 6000? At the EDI CTR boundary if he was above 6000' ( climbing to FL10? ) was he technically still in the TMA? Clearance is required - was this given?
I am generally in the "string em up by the wotsits mob" when it comes to anything that compromises safety but, in this case, despite poor RT and an alleged infringment of airspace would it be in the public interest to prosecute? As a deterrent to others - perhaps. As a punishment - surely compulsory retraining would yield a better result.
As regards the actual crash, the Procurator would have to prove that PIC was negligent or wreckless in his conduct of the flight and that resulted in the crash ( although until a charge is brought I can only speculate as to whether this would be the appropriate test ) Again, as there were no injuries or damage to persons or property I think it is unlikley that PF would see that a prosecution is in the public interest. Conflicting evidence as a result of damage to the aircraft, lack of independent corroberation and the fact that the pilot claims that he had enugh fuel but that the donk conked out - might challenge a fiscal depute.
If, as has been mentioned, this had resulted in a fatality then in Scotland there would be a Fatal Accident Inquiry(FAI) which is a statutory public inquiry into the circumstances of a death.
The Procurator Fiscal can hold a FAI where there are issues of public safety or matters of general public concern arising from a death and there is a need to highlight hazardous or dangerous circumstances or systems that have caused or contributed to it.
The fundamental purpose of the AAIB is:
"To improve aviation safety by determining the causes of air accidents and serious incidents and making safety recommendations intended to prevent recurrence"
...It is not to apportion blame or liability.
"To improve aviation safety by determining the causes of air accidents and serious incidents and making safety recommendations intended to prevent recurrence"
...It is not to apportion blame or liability.
As a case study it may be text book - even if Vince might not agree!
Re the CTR Bust, at 7000' was he not out of the Edinburgh Zone but in the scottish TMA? I'm sorry , I don't have any charts with me today but that is Class D airspace above 6000ft and class E 2500 - 6000? At the EDI CTR boundary if he was above 6000' ( climbing to FL10? ) was he technically still in the TMA? Clearance is required - was this given?
Last edited by Munnyspinner; 20th Aug 2009 at 19:22. Reason: Catch up with more recent posts